Date   

Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Ben,
Thanks for those two very useful references. I'll print out both and
put them with my NYC material.
Gene Green

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Gene Green wrote:
"It seems easier to find model matches for the PRR cars. The NYC
and
subsidiaries appear to present more of a challenge. That is why I
asked all the questions."

I think the biggest reason behind the under-representation of NYC
boxcars on a typical layout (aside from SPFs with a tenuous grip on
reality) is a lack of understanding of the NYC boxcar fleet brought
on by the Byzantine lot number system. For example, almost
everyone
on this list knows what a PRR Class X29 boxcar is, but how many of
you know off the top of your head what a NYC Lot 414-B boxcar looks
like? (Answer at bottom of page.)

For more online on understanding the NYC boxcar fleet, see:

Jeff English's handout from the 2000 Hunt Valley PM Meet on the
subject:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/nycsboxmain.html

Terry Link's breakdown of NYC freight car lots, including links to
equipment diagrams and photos:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm


Ben Hom

Answer: The most under-represented car on steam era layouts, Lot
414-
B is a 1000-car lot of NYC's 8 ft 7 in IH USRA-design steel boxcars,
NYC 180000-180999 (original), renumbered to NYC 101000-101999. If
you take all of the different IH of these cars as a group, the
numbers are on the same order as the PRR X29 fleet.


Re: Image: loading an automobile car in Wichita, Ks 1929

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 22, 2008, at 8:15 AM, benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

David Snook wrote:
http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg
<http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg>

"I wonder if all of those crates will fit in the one car?"

From the looks of it, no. However, note that there are TWO automobile
boxcars in the photo - the WAB car is most likely a 21250-series 1-1/2
door DS automobile boxcar. The radial roof is a key spotting feature
differentiating this car from a USRA DS boxcar.











Ben is, as usual, correct. I will add that what's in those crates is
one or more Travelair biplanes, and that Travelair was (at the time)
one of the largest and most successful aircraft manufacturers in the
U.S. The superiority of Travelair's aircraft can be accounted for by
the fact that the company was run by a partnership consisting of
Clyde Cessna, Walter Beech, and Lloyd Stearman, all of whom went on
to establish their own aircraft companies and become legends in the
industry. All three designed aircraft during the 1930s of which many
are still flying. As are a number of Travelairs, though the last of
them were built in 1930. I've flown in one. Now, back to freight
cars before I hear the creaking hinges of moderate jail.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Image: loading an automobile car in Wichita, Ks 1929

brianehni <behni@...>
 

Wonder who in Honolulu got the Travel-Air airplane?

Brian Ehni

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

David Snook wrote:
http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg
<http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg>

"I wonder if all of those crates will fit in the one car?"

From the looks of it, no. However, note that there are TWO automobile
boxcars in the photo - the WAB car is most likely a 21250-series 1-1/2
door DS automobile boxcar. The radial roof is a key spotting feature
differentiating this car from a USRA DS boxcar.


Ben Hom


Re: Image: loading an automobile car in Wichita, Ks 1929

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

David Snook wrote:
http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg
<http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg>

"I wonder if all of those crates will fit in the one car?"

From the looks of it, no. However, note that there are TWO automobile
boxcars in the photo - the WAB car is most likely a 21250-series 1-1/2
door DS automobile boxcar. The radial roof is a key spotting feature
differentiating this car from a USRA DS boxcar.


Ben Hom


Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
"It seems easier to find model matches for the PRR cars. The NYC and
subsidiaries appear to present more of a challenge. That is why I
asked all the questions."

I think the biggest reason behind the under-representation of NYC
boxcars on a typical layout (aside from SPFs with a tenuous grip on
reality) is a lack of understanding of the NYC boxcar fleet brought
on by the Byzantine lot number system. For example, almost everyone
on this list knows what a PRR Class X29 boxcar is, but how many of
you know off the top of your head what a NYC Lot 414-B boxcar looks
like? (Answer at bottom of page.)

For more online on understanding the NYC boxcar fleet, see:

Jeff English's handout from the 2000 Hunt Valley PM Meet on the
subject:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/nycsboxmain.html

Terry Link's breakdown of NYC freight car lots, including links to
equipment diagrams and photos:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm


Ben Hom

Answer: The most under-represented car on steam era layouts, Lot 414-
B is a 1000-car lot of NYC's 8 ft 7 in IH USRA-design steel boxcars,
NYC 180000-180999 (original), renumbered to NYC 101000-101999. If
you take all of the different IH of these cars as a group, the
numbers are on the same order as the PRR X29 fleet.


Re: Plans to build in 1 1/2" scale

csxt5555
 

I build in 1 1/2 scale.  I  model the Clinchfield and am currently working on a CRR E-3 ex DRGW 4-6-6-4.  I have posted in the photo section in a folder called 1.5 scale the boxcar ends and roofs that I have done.  I will be doing  4/4, 4/3, etc ends and maybe roof.  Also will be working on some gons and outside braced boxcars.
 
-Kevin Sprayberry

--- On Tue, 10/21/08, Paul Catapano <pc66ot@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

From: Paul Catapano <pc66ot@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [STMFC] Plans to build in 1 1/2" scale
To: "Steam_Era" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 7:56 PM






I'm looking for plans for an outside braced boxcar, hopefully the braces are wood, to build a 1-1/2" scale car. Cars of the 1890's all seem to be sheathed, and cars of post WWI seem to be to modern. It can be a generic, since it is going to be scenery.
 
Please any help off list will be appreciated. Sorry to be so vague, but we're looking for a "stand in" car who's era seems to be important, go figure.

Paul Catapano
Littlerock Subdivision
Atlantic Inland Railway Co.

"All it takes to start an insane asylum
is a big room and the right kind of people"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Plans to build in 1 1/2" scale

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Paul Catapano wrote:
I'm looking for plans for an outside braced boxcar, hopefully the braces are wood, to build a 1-1/2" scale car. Cars of the 1890's all seem to be sheathed . . .
That's because they were protecting those wood trusses from the weather. Even early in the 20th century, railroads (at least the progressive ones) were already using steel framing.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Plans to build in 1 1/2" scale

Paul Catapano
 

I'm looking for plans for an outside braced boxcar, hopefully the braces are wood, to build a 1-1/2" scale car. Cars of the 1890's all seem to be sheathed, and cars of post WWI seem to be to modern. It can be a generic, since it is going to be scenery.
 
Please any help off list will be appreciated. Sorry to be so vague, but we're looking for a "stand in" car who's era seems to be important, go figure.

Paul Catapano
Littlerock Subdivision
Atlantic Inland Railway Co.

"All it takes to start an insane asylum
is a big room and the right kind of people"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Image: loading an automobile car in Wichita, Ks 1929

michael bishop <goldrod_1@...>
 

Great site, with a lot of 1930's pics. This one shows a (Missouri Pacific) auto car with end doors being loaded with aircraft in a crate. Looks like at least a pinched finger job.  
 
http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.3.jpg
 
Michael Bishop






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.

Doug Rhodes
 

Hello Clark

Names sometimes arose before places looked on the map the way they do today.

When Ontario entered Canada it was a much smaller province, basically just the area immediately north of the Great Lakes. In 1867 the term "southwestern Ontario" would have made more sense given the shape of the province on the map. You can google or check here to see http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/English/exhibits/maps/boundaries.htm

Sort of like that university in Chicago area called "Northwestern" when it might be more logical to call it "Midwestern", but Chicago was once in the "northwest" of the USA. Which is also why Seattle is in the "Pacific northwest" as opposed to any other kind.

Freight cars also sometimes carry names that no longer make much geographic sense (mandatory content!)

Doug Rhodes

----- Original Message -----
From: pierreoliver2003
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:17 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.


Just so we're clear,I don't get it either.
But there are many things in my life I don't always understand, and I
think we should leave it at that.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:
>
> --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Frank is correct in calling that region Southwestern Ontario. The
> > region you are referring to is generally called Northern Ontario. >
> Pierre Oliver
> >
> Gee, I guess I got a geography lesson? Here I always thought we
> traveled to NW Ontario. It's just northern? There's no west? You sire
> you aren't from Quebec? He he
>
> In North Central Iowa, part of the Upper Mid-west.
> Clark Propst
>


Image: loading an automobile car in Wichita, Ks 1929

David
 

Here is an interesting image I found while looking through the online
images provided by Wichita State University Libraries' Special
Collections.

http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg
<http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg>

This page has the photo caption with information (you will have to
scroll down):

http://www.wichitaphotos.org/searchresults.asp?txtinput=Transportation&o\;
ffset=80
<http://www.wichitaphotos.org/searchresults.asp?txtinput=Transportation&\;
offset=80>

I wonder if all of those crates will fit in the one car? No forklifts
or crane in the image makes me think this would be an armstrong
operation, even if aircraft parts are not always heavy it looks like
work to me.

David Snook - Wichita, KS


Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Wow! Lots of good information! Thank you all for your time and
information. I appreciate it very much.

The Landmesser hot box list for 48-49-50 includes 68 PRR cars and 57
NYC cars including 6 PMcK&Y, 6 PM and 6 PLE which I take to mean P&LE.
It seems easier to find model matches for the PRR cars. The NYC and
subsidiaries appear to present more of a challenge. That is why I
asked all the questions.

Now I need to dig out a couple of magazine articles to which I have
been referred.

Gene Green
OitwTtoEP


Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Just so we're clear,I don't get it either.
But there are many things in my life I don't always understand, and I
think we should leave it at that.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@>
wrote:

Frank is correct in calling that region Southwestern Ontario. The
region you are referring to is generally called Northern Ontario. >
Pierre Oliver
Gee, I guess I got a geography lesson? Here I always thought we
traveled to NW Ontario. It's just northern? There's no west? You sire
you aren't from Quebec? He he

In North Central Iowa, part of the Upper Mid-west.
Clark Propst


Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

Larry Kline
 

Gene Green asked:
Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934 rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color. The before and after photos of these cars also appeared in the 1937 and several later CBCycs.

The reporting marks on most of these cars were changed from PMcK&Y to P&LE by 1940. All were changed by 1951. See the _rebuilds_ tab in the Excel speadsheet _USRA SS boxcars_ that I posted in the files section.

There is a Richard Hendrickson article about the P&LE rebuilds, and the Tichy kit for the P&LE rebuilds, in the July 1993 issue of Railmodel Journal. The prototype photo in that article and, other 1940s and 1950s photos that I have, all show the later _New York Central System_ herald.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@...>
wrote:

Frank is correct in calling that region Southwestern Ontario. The
region you are referring to is generally called Northern Ontario. >
Pierre Oliver
Gee, I guess I got a geography lesson? Here I always thought we
traveled to NW Ontario. It's just northern? There's no west? You sire
you aren't from Quebec? He he

In North Central Iowa, part of the Upper Mid-west.
Clark Propst


Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Frank is correct in calling that region Southwestern Ontario. The
region you are referring to is generally called Northern Ontario. May
not make much sense, but that's the way it is.
From Southwestern Ontario,
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

Frank, you most mean South Eastern Ontario? SW has only the CN along
the 11 highway and the CP along the 17 highway...or are the roads the
other way around? The only two E/W roads anyway. One is along the
border CN and the other is a 100 or so miles north CP.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Valoczy" <destron@> wrote:


I'm curious as to whether southwestern Ontario was an exceptional
case
to the "standard" distribution ratios given for the US as a whole and
Canada as a whole, given the presence of the CASO/NYC and the PM/C&O?
Was there a higher-than-usual density of US freight cars in that area
than elsewhere in Canada?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC


Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
"Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the
June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed
box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding. If it is,
indeed, the same car it has been renumbered 83400 when rebuilt. The
ad claims the rebuilt car is 4" higher and 3" wider.

"When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place?"

No.


"Reused somehow?"

In this case, no.


"Discarded with a new structure attached to the side sill?"

Yes.


"Three inches extra width is approximately the thickness of the
original wooden sides. Surely the rebuilt car is double-sheathed."

Yes, in the same way that contemporary steel boxcars were double-
sheathed.


"How did the car get wider?"

The replacement steel car body was wider than the original SS
boxcar. If you look at the side sill, you will see a
pronouced "step" with side-sill brackets where the original
underframe meets the new carbody.


"What does the "S-" in the original number represent?"

The following explanation is from Terry Link's website,
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm :

'During the 1920's, many cars had a "S-" in front of the car number.
This was meant to indicate that these were "system cars" and were
considered on home rails regardless of which NYC subsidiary they were
on. So a Michigan Central car could be returned to Big Four rails and
be considered 'home' for accounting purposes.'


"Would any of the original single-sheathed USRA box cars on the NYC
(any number series) have survived until 1950 without being rebuilt?"

Only the PMcK&Y USRA SS boxcars were rebuilt. Cars assigned to other
subsidiaries survived into the 1950s but were gone by 1953.


"Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934
rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty
standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York
Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color."

Highly doubtful. I have never seen any "Lines" herald in any photo
from the 1940s on. These cars lasted in revenue service until 1959.


"A lot number that is almost legible is above the herald."

Lot numbers for these cars were 630-B (built 1935) and 638-B (built
1936).


Ben Hom


Re: New Bulkhead HO scale 70-ton flatcar

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

I am not near my library, so I am winging this from memory.

InterMountain was provided photos and documention for B&O class P-31c
bulkhead flat cars.

Further, I believe the B&O class P-25d bulkhead flat car is close in
structure and apprearance.





--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, SUVCWORR@... wrote:


Jim:

What is the B&O class, number series and build dates or rebuild
dates for
these anticipated cars?

Rich Orr

In a message dated 10/15/2008 1:57:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jmischke@... writes:



The InterMountain bulkhead flat car will be the B&O version. Some
enterprising B&O guy sent them the drawings and photos they
needed.

After watching obscure ATSF and Missouri Pacific versions of
popular
car types come out because of some consultant's favorite railroad,
it's
feels good to win one.


Jim Mischke
B&OHS Model Committee





--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Andy Carlson <midcentury@> wrote:


Intermountain Railway Co.'s dealer newsletter stated that
following
the may/June delivery of the 70t flat will be bulkhead flat car
versions. Perhaps they will model the Santa Fe version????
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


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Re: New Bulkhead HO scale 70-ton flatcar

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

Prototype B&O W-7's had Duryea underframes, so the Accurail triple
bay offset side hopper is not quite right.

I did not help with that one. Nor the 1956 Athearn quad hopper.





--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:


On Oct 15, 2008, at 12:57 PM, jim_mischke wrote:

After watching obscure ATSF and Missouri Pacific versions of
popular
car types come out because of some consultant's favorite
railroad,
it's
feels good to win one.

Jim Mischke
B&OHS Model Committee
Jim,
Uhh, what I don't quite understand is why there wasn't a similar
vague
reference to the obscure Accurail triple offset-side AAR 70-ton
hopper
car that was ONLY correct (albeit poorly rendered Z-sections on the
ends) for 1,000 B&O W-7 cars produced in 1947. I've often wondered
how
that "rare" car happened to be selected when there were other
superior
choices. Surely the decision wasn't made by some self-interested
B&O
modeler. At any rate, I'm glad you have learned the process of how
to
get self-interest models produced. Among other good choices, could
the
B&O version of the AAR 50-ton hopper car (a car that was built in
huge
numbers) be far away? <g>
Regards,
Ed Hawkins



Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding . . .
When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place? Reused somehow? Discarded with a new structure attached to the side sill?
Gene, rebuilding these cars normally used modern sheet steel sides, as in the case of these PMcK&Y cars and many others. The new sides did not need diagonal truss members but had inside posts, as with other steel box cars.

How did the car get wider?
By not including the width of the truss, the car skin could be at the outside of the car width. You can see it on the ends, which usually had to be widened or replaced to accommodate the new inside width.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

110641 - 110660 of 187213