Date   

Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.

Doug Rhodes
 

Hello Clark

Names sometimes arose before places looked on the map the way they do today.

When Ontario entered Canada it was a much smaller province, basically just the area immediately north of the Great Lakes. In 1867 the term "southwestern Ontario" would have made more sense given the shape of the province on the map. You can google or check here to see http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/English/exhibits/maps/boundaries.htm

Sort of like that university in Chicago area called "Northwestern" when it might be more logical to call it "Midwestern", but Chicago was once in the "northwest" of the USA. Which is also why Seattle is in the "Pacific northwest" as opposed to any other kind.

Freight cars also sometimes carry names that no longer make much geographic sense (mandatory content!)

Doug Rhodes

----- Original Message -----
From: pierreoliver2003
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:17 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.


Just so we're clear,I don't get it either.
But there are many things in my life I don't always understand, and I
think we should leave it at that.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:
>
> --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Frank is correct in calling that region Southwestern Ontario. The
> > region you are referring to is generally called Northern Ontario. >
> Pierre Oliver
> >
> Gee, I guess I got a geography lesson? Here I always thought we
> traveled to NW Ontario. It's just northern? There's no west? You sire
> you aren't from Quebec? He he
>
> In North Central Iowa, part of the Upper Mid-west.
> Clark Propst
>


Image: loading an automobile car in Wichita, Ks 1929

David
 

Here is an interesting image I found while looking through the online
images provided by Wichita State University Libraries' Special
Collections.

http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg
<http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wsu_tms408.9.factory.4.jpg>

This page has the photo caption with information (you will have to
scroll down):

http://www.wichitaphotos.org/searchresults.asp?txtinput=Transportation&o\;
ffset=80
<http://www.wichitaphotos.org/searchresults.asp?txtinput=Transportation&\;
offset=80>

I wonder if all of those crates will fit in the one car? No forklifts
or crane in the image makes me think this would be an armstrong
operation, even if aircraft parts are not always heavy it looks like
work to me.

David Snook - Wichita, KS


Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Wow! Lots of good information! Thank you all for your time and
information. I appreciate it very much.

The Landmesser hot box list for 48-49-50 includes 68 PRR cars and 57
NYC cars including 6 PMcK&Y, 6 PM and 6 PLE which I take to mean P&LE.
It seems easier to find model matches for the PRR cars. The NYC and
subsidiaries appear to present more of a challenge. That is why I
asked all the questions.

Now I need to dig out a couple of magazine articles to which I have
been referred.

Gene Green
OitwTtoEP


Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Just so we're clear,I don't get it either.
But there are many things in my life I don't always understand, and I
think we should leave it at that.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@>
wrote:

Frank is correct in calling that region Southwestern Ontario. The
region you are referring to is generally called Northern Ontario. >
Pierre Oliver
Gee, I guess I got a geography lesson? Here I always thought we
traveled to NW Ontario. It's just northern? There's no west? You sire
you aren't from Quebec? He he

In North Central Iowa, part of the Upper Mid-west.
Clark Propst


Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

Larry Kline
 

Gene Green asked:
Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934 rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color. The before and after photos of these cars also appeared in the 1937 and several later CBCycs.

The reporting marks on most of these cars were changed from PMcK&Y to P&LE by 1940. All were changed by 1951. See the _rebuilds_ tab in the Excel speadsheet _USRA SS boxcars_ that I posted in the files section.

There is a Richard Hendrickson article about the P&LE rebuilds, and the Tichy kit for the P&LE rebuilds, in the July 1993 issue of Railmodel Journal. The prototype photo in that article and, other 1940s and 1950s photos that I have, all show the later _New York Central System_ herald.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@...>
wrote:

Frank is correct in calling that region Southwestern Ontario. The
region you are referring to is generally called Northern Ontario. >
Pierre Oliver
Gee, I guess I got a geography lesson? Here I always thought we
traveled to NW Ontario. It's just northern? There's no west? You sire
you aren't from Quebec? He he

In North Central Iowa, part of the Upper Mid-west.
Clark Propst


Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Frank is correct in calling that region Southwestern Ontario. The
region you are referring to is generally called Northern Ontario. May
not make much sense, but that's the way it is.
From Southwestern Ontario,
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

Frank, you most mean South Eastern Ontario? SW has only the CN along
the 11 highway and the CP along the 17 highway...or are the roads the
other way around? The only two E/W roads anyway. One is along the
border CN and the other is a 100 or so miles north CP.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Valoczy" <destron@> wrote:


I'm curious as to whether southwestern Ontario was an exceptional
case
to the "standard" distribution ratios given for the US as a whole and
Canada as a whole, given the presence of the CASO/NYC and the PM/C&O?
Was there a higher-than-usual density of US freight cars in that area
than elsewhere in Canada?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC


Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
"Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the
June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed
box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding. If it is,
indeed, the same car it has been renumbered 83400 when rebuilt. The
ad claims the rebuilt car is 4" higher and 3" wider.

"When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place?"

No.


"Reused somehow?"

In this case, no.


"Discarded with a new structure attached to the side sill?"

Yes.


"Three inches extra width is approximately the thickness of the
original wooden sides. Surely the rebuilt car is double-sheathed."

Yes, in the same way that contemporary steel boxcars were double-
sheathed.


"How did the car get wider?"

The replacement steel car body was wider than the original SS
boxcar. If you look at the side sill, you will see a
pronouced "step" with side-sill brackets where the original
underframe meets the new carbody.


"What does the "S-" in the original number represent?"

The following explanation is from Terry Link's website,
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm :

'During the 1920's, many cars had a "S-" in front of the car number.
This was meant to indicate that these were "system cars" and were
considered on home rails regardless of which NYC subsidiary they were
on. So a Michigan Central car could be returned to Big Four rails and
be considered 'home' for accounting purposes.'


"Would any of the original single-sheathed USRA box cars on the NYC
(any number series) have survived until 1950 without being rebuilt?"

Only the PMcK&Y USRA SS boxcars were rebuilt. Cars assigned to other
subsidiaries survived into the 1950s but were gone by 1953.


"Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934
rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty
standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York
Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color."

Highly doubtful. I have never seen any "Lines" herald in any photo
from the 1940s on. These cars lasted in revenue service until 1959.


"A lot number that is almost legible is above the herald."

Lot numbers for these cars were 630-B (built 1935) and 638-B (built
1936).


Ben Hom


Re: New Bulkhead HO scale 70-ton flatcar

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

I am not near my library, so I am winging this from memory.

InterMountain was provided photos and documention for B&O class P-31c
bulkhead flat cars.

Further, I believe the B&O class P-25d bulkhead flat car is close in
structure and apprearance.





--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, SUVCWORR@... wrote:


Jim:

What is the B&O class, number series and build dates or rebuild
dates for
these anticipated cars?

Rich Orr

In a message dated 10/15/2008 1:57:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jmischke@... writes:



The InterMountain bulkhead flat car will be the B&O version. Some
enterprising B&O guy sent them the drawings and photos they
needed.

After watching obscure ATSF and Missouri Pacific versions of
popular
car types come out because of some consultant's favorite railroad,
it's
feels good to win one.


Jim Mischke
B&OHS Model Committee





--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Andy Carlson <midcentury@> wrote:


Intermountain Railway Co.'s dealer newsletter stated that
following
the may/June delivery of the 70t flat will be bulkhead flat car
versions. Perhaps they will model the Santa Fe version????
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


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Re: New Bulkhead HO scale 70-ton flatcar

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

Prototype B&O W-7's had Duryea underframes, so the Accurail triple
bay offset side hopper is not quite right.

I did not help with that one. Nor the 1956 Athearn quad hopper.





--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:


On Oct 15, 2008, at 12:57 PM, jim_mischke wrote:

After watching obscure ATSF and Missouri Pacific versions of
popular
car types come out because of some consultant's favorite
railroad,
it's
feels good to win one.

Jim Mischke
B&OHS Model Committee
Jim,
Uhh, what I don't quite understand is why there wasn't a similar
vague
reference to the obscure Accurail triple offset-side AAR 70-ton
hopper
car that was ONLY correct (albeit poorly rendered Z-sections on the
ends) for 1,000 B&O W-7 cars produced in 1947. I've often wondered
how
that "rare" car happened to be selected when there were other
superior
choices. Surely the decision wasn't made by some self-interested
B&O
modeler. At any rate, I'm glad you have learned the process of how
to
get self-interest models produced. Among other good choices, could
the
B&O version of the AAR 50-ton hopper car (a car that was built in
huge
numbers) be far away? <g>
Regards,
Ed Hawkins



Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding . . .
When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place? Reused somehow? Discarded with a new structure attached to the side sill?
Gene, rebuilding these cars normally used modern sheet steel sides, as in the case of these PMcK&Y cars and many others. The new sides did not need diagonal truss members but had inside posts, as with other steel box cars.

How did the car get wider?
By not including the width of the truss, the car skin could be at the outside of the car width. You can see it on the ends, which usually had to be widened or replaced to accommodate the new inside width.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

Don Burn
 

Gene,

Martin Lofton's article about USRA rebuilds in Sept 1989 RMC shows a series of pictures for a Rock Island rebuild, they did not use the truss members only the frame/floor and the ends. That photo series has a comment about sheet metal extensions to widen the car.

Don Burn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Green" <bierglaeser@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:06 PM
Subject: [STMFC] NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars


Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the
June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed
box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding. If it is,
indeed, the same car it has been renumbered 83400 when rebuilt. The
ad claims the rebuilt car is 4" higher and 3" wider.

When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place?
Reused somehow? Discarded with a new structure attached to the side
sill?

Three inches extra width is approximately the thickness of the
original wooden sides. Surely the rebuilt car is double-sheathed.

How did the car get wider?

What does the "S-" in the original number represent? I am sure I am
not the first to ask this question but I couldn't find an answer in
the archives. Searching for "NYC" plus "S-" yields every message
containing NYC and any word beginning with the letter S.

Would any of the original single-sheathed USRA box cars on the NYC
(any number series) have survived until 1950 without being rebuilt?

Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934
rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty
standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York
Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color.
A lot number that is almost legible is above the herald.

Sorry for such a long message. Should I post a scan of the ad
somewhere?

Gene Green
OitwTtoEP




__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3543 (20081021) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the
June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed
box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding. If it is,
indeed, the same car it has been renumbered 83400 when rebuilt. The
ad claims the rebuilt car is 4" higher and 3" wider.

When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place?
Reused somehow? Discarded with a new structure attached to the side
sill?

Three inches extra width is approximately the thickness of the
original wooden sides. Surely the rebuilt car is double-sheathed.

How did the car get wider?

What does the "S-" in the original number represent? I am sure I am
not the first to ask this question but I couldn't find an answer in
the archives. Searching for "NYC" plus "S-" yields every message
containing NYC and any word beginning with the letter S.

Would any of the original single-sheathed USRA box cars on the NYC
(any number series) have survived until 1950 without being rebuilt?

Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934
rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty
standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York
Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color.
A lot number that is almost legible is above the herald.

Sorry for such a long message. Should I post a scan of the ad
somewhere?

Gene Green
OitwTtoEP


Re: New Bulkhead HO scale 70-ton flatcar

SUVCWORR@...
 

Does anyone make a Duryea underframe conversion kit? Or is the best thing
to fake it by extending the coupler pockets?

Rich Orr

In a message dated 10/21/2008 3:21:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jmischke@worldnet.att.net writes:


Prototype B&O W-7's had Duryea underframes, so the Accurail triple
bay offset side hopper is not quite right.

I did not help with that one. Nor the 1956 Athearn quad hopper.





--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:


On Oct 15, 2008, at 12:57 PM, jim_mischke wrote:

After watching obscure ATSF and Missouri Pacific versions of
popular
car types come out because of some consultant's favorite
railroad,
it's
feels good to win one.

Jim Mischke
B&OHS Model Committee
Jim,
Uhh, what I don't quite understand is why there wasn't a similar
vague
reference to the obscure Accurail triple offset-side AAR 70-ton
hopper
car that was ONLY correct (albeit poorly rendered Z-sections on the
ends) for 1,000 B&O W-7 cars produced in 1947. I've often wondered
how
that "rare" car happened to be selected when there were other
superior
choices. Surely the decision wasn't made by some self-interested
B&O
modeler. At any rate, I'm glad you have learned the process of how
to
get self-interest models produced. Among other good choices, could
the
B&O version of the AAR 50-ton hopper car (a car that was built in
huge
numbers) be far away? <g>
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: Freight car distribution, but not the usual question.

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Frank, you most mean South Eastern Ontario? SW has only the CN along
the 11 highway and the CP along the 17 highway...or are the roads the
other way around? The only two E/W roads anyway. One is along the
border CN and the other is a 100 or so miles north CP.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Valoczy" <destron@...> wrote:


I'm curious as to whether southwestern Ontario was an exceptional
case
to the "standard" distribution ratios given for the US as a whole and
Canada as a whole, given the presence of the CASO/NYC and the PM/C&O?
Was there a higher-than-usual density of US freight cars in that area
than elsewhere in Canada?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC


Re: Erie Box Car Image

Larry Kline
 

Eric Neubauer's book _Philadelphia & Reading Freight Cars: 1900 to 1914_ has drawings and photos of a similar Pressed Steel box car built in 1901 for the Reading, as well as many other contemporary freight cars. See the books link at:
http://ericsrailroadcarhistory.com/

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

Al Westerfield wrote:

Bob - The Erie car was built by Pressed Steel Car Co. circa 1902. I have the builder's photo but can't locate it at the moment. It was a standard design
they used for about 3 years. The trucks are PSC's version of the Fox trucks but not Fox. Erie also ordered 50' furniture cars of the same design; a photo and plan appear in the 1906 CBD. The box car and Iowa Central car are identical except for so trim details.


COSX, MP interesting photos

Robert kirkham
 

Some shots on E-bay of interest tonight:
- COSX 823 and partial view of an automobile boxcar - auction 200246244737 and 200265616565
- some machines for tracking freight cars - what's the story? auction 120296511677
- MP90150 and other car - auction 200265615115

Not my auction or photos etc - just curious.

Rob Kirkham


Re: Walthers Michigan ore car (NEW)

Cyril Durrenberger
 

Westerfield is working on a kit for a HO scale model of the 50 ton
Summers ore car - used by DSS&A, Soo, DM&N, D&IR (later
DM&IR).

Cyril Durrenberger

--- On Mon, 10/20/08, Bob Hainstock <boblh@new.rr.com> wrote:
From: Bob Hainstock <boblh@new.rr.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Walthers Michigan ore car (NEW)
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 12:02 PM











While I will admit that I am somewhat glad that Walthers is

producing these 70 ton cars, I really keep hoping that someone

would mass-produce a 50 ton steel ore car, a much more common

car in the steam era of the ore operations of the Michigan

upper peniunsula ore operations.



I've heard rumors that Tichy was considering a car design that

C&NW, Soo, and DSS&A each used, I've not heard anymore about

that project. Is there any news on that front?



And yes I do have some of the excellent Westerfield GN cars,

also used by the Lake Superior and Ishpeming.



And a note of possible interest regarding the width of the

"Michigan" car. And okay I admit that this is outside of steam

era: the Wisconsin Central had to remove every other track in

the old Escanaba C&NW ore yard when the yard was converted over

to handling regular freight cars.



Bob Hainstock


























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Clinchfield PS-3 3 bay hoppers

Ed Hawkins
 

On Oct 20, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Curt Fortenberry wrote:

Anyone know the Pullman Standard Job # for the CRR PS-3 3 bay hoppers;
52000 series, built 1958?
Curt,
Lot 8362, 52500-52749 (52000-52499 were twin PS-3s built in 1953).
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Clinchfield PS-3 3 bay hoppers

Curt Fortenberry <arrphoto@...>
 

Anyone know the Pullman Standard Job # for the CRR PS-3 3 bay hoppers;
52000 series, built 1958?

Curt Fortenberry

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