Date   

Re: A Great Decline

Earl T. Hackett <hacketet@...>
 

Thanks for that bit of info. I've been looking for some interesting
freight car projects and a couple of ventilator boxes was at the top
of the list, but I just didn't know if they would be correct for 1952.
Since I model the eastern section of the C&O there was direct
interchange with all three of the lines mentioned below. Somewhere in
this stack of stuff I have drawings of a couple of them.

As for those big wooden box cars - also somewhere in the same stack I
have photos of several 50' double sheathed cars and IIRC, a single
sheathed car. I have always considered them a rarity and thus have
never modeled one. Maybe I should do something about that.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "laramielarry" <ostresh@...> wrote:
in the July 1950 ORER there were 23,242
short cars (from a U.S. total of 712,098 box, auto and ventilator
cars) - a little over 3% of the fleet. Over half of these were in
the
Southern ICC region (15,458), with the L&N, SEABOARD, and ACL
leading
the list.


Re: A Great Decline

Bruce Smith
 

On Oct 26, 2008, at 7:33 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:
I'll suggest a different reason. The SW roads, as you term them,
had bigger clearances and were building bigger cars earlier. The NE
roads had a surfeit of small, old cars. That's an important reason for
the differences in scrapping rates.
To add to Tony's response, looking at the number of cars is only half the equation. The cars being removed from the roster were small capacity cars, which were being replaced by fewer higher capacity cars. For example, during WWII, the railroads carried vastly more freight than during WWI, with many fewer cars. They did that by increasing all sorts of parameters including load per car, longer trains, average speeds, etc... A student of freightcarology should realize that post WWII fleets were very much smaller than the pre- WWII and WWI fleets. The NYC USRA steel cars and the X29s were the last vast fleets for any RR. For example, the nearly 30,000 X29s were followed by the X31 which numbered around 12,000 (counting all subclasses), which in turn was followed by approximately 3,000 X37s, essentially setting the tone for the rest of the steam era.

BTW, "scrapped" may not be the right term for some of these cars. The PRR burned tens of thousands of wood XL boxcars in massive funeral pyres, salvaging the metal out of the ashes.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Richard Burg where are you?

Bob McCarthy
 

Howdy!
 
     A group of us are working to reproduce a highly detailed Central of Georgia Door and a Half 40 ' boxcar in Scale S.
 
    The president of the Central of Georgia Historical Society provided a lead on images of boxcar #6715 showing both sides.  It is a Paul Dunn photo in Richard Burg's collection.
 
     If anyone knows how to reach Richard please forward that information to me.  A phone number/email address would be appreciated.
 
    When I am finished with it, I will post a how to  build it article for anyone to use.  See attached photo of these boxcars.  They were built in 1941, 1944 and 1947.
 
Thanks,
 
Bob McCarthy
Modeling the Mighty Central of Georgia in Scale S
 
Thanks,
 
Bob McCarthy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: A Great Decline

Ray Breyer
 

"Earl T. Hackett" <hacketet@verizon.net> wrote:
>>Did any of the short car last into the 50s? A short car would
>>make an interesting addition to my car fleet.

Hi Earl,

Past 1952 and the K brake ban, you've essentially got four choices for a short boxcar on your roster: CN or CP "Fowler" single sheathed boxcars, ACL or SAL ventilated boxcars, DL&W or D&H double sheathed plain boxcars, or MP or NC&StL double sheathed boxes. A fifth option would be one of the 1100 or so NC&StL short all-steel rebuild cars, which I hear will be coming out as a resin kit some time in the near future.

Regards,

Ray Breyer


Re: A Great Decline

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Earl T. Hackett" <hacketet@...> wrote:

A new list member.
. . .
Did any of the short car last into the 50s? A short car would make
an
interesting addition to my car fleet.
Hi Earl

Welcome to our list! If you check the Excel file that I mentioned in
my post, you will see that in the July 1950 ORER there were 23,242
short cars (from a U.S. total of 712,098 box, auto and ventilator
cars) - a little over 3% of the fleet. Over half of these were in the
Southern ICC region (15,458), with the L&N, SEABOARD, and ACL leading
the list.

The file is in the Files section of our list and is called
"Number_of_boxcars_by_road_and_length_1932-1950.xls". Excel "readers"
are available for free download at a variety of sites on the web.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: A Great Decline

destron@...
 

I'll suggest a different reason. The SW roads, as you term them,
had bigger clearances and were building bigger cars earlier. The NE
roads had a surfeit of small, old cars. That's an important reason for
the differences in scrapping rates.
Weren't there some pretty big (50+ foot) cars being built out west already
before WW1? I recall reading with some surprise about some surprisingle
massive cars, quite early along.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC


Re: A Great Decline

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Earl T. Hackett wrote:
A new list member.
Welcome, Earl. This topic raises a number of points.

I got into this conversation a bit late, but would like to suggest a reason for the variation in the decline of the short box cars. The lines with the least declines are all south west roads. The cars were all wood construction. Wood lasts a lot longer in the desert SW than in the relatively wet NE.
First of all, the cars ran freely everywhere, so it's not as if the SW cars lived there all their lives, and the NE cars stayed in their home region. Second, the whole point was to maintain the paint on the cars. It had been proven in the 19th century that wood held up for very long times, longer than the technical service usefulness of most cars, if it was painted every five to seven years. Third, there had not been many all-wood box cars since before World War I, and after 1900 most roads were changing to steel underframes, the most vulnerable part of a car.
I'll suggest a different reason. The SW roads, as you term them, had bigger clearances and were building bigger cars earlier. The NE roads had a surfeit of small, old cars. That's an important reason for the differences in scrapping rates.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: A Great Decline

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Don Burn wrote:
"In additon there were a fair number of 40' wood box cars on a number
of north eastern railroads in that era."

Don is not the only one guilty of this example of sloppy terminology -
what exactly do you mean by "wood" boxcars? If you are lumping
together both single-sheathed and double-sheathed boxcars, it's a huge
mistake. While these cars may appear similar in function to the
untrained eyes of many modelers, single-sheathed and double-sheathed
boxcars are at least a generation apart technology-wise.


Ben Hom


Re: autoracks, ca. 1915

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Being very careful with my terminology (Mr Thompson) I can see that on the nearest flat car, there
appears to be at least two ladder-shaped vertical frames which appear may be put into the stake
pockets on the flat car. They >might be< spaced so as to support the wheels of the automobiles in
the top row. These appear on the further flat cars as well.

Nobody's supplied any guesses about the make of automobiles shown. I'm far from being any sort of
expert, but the one suspended from the gantry MIGHT be a Hupmobile. There was an antique car
collector who lived in my area when I was a kid who had a BRIGHT yellow-painted Hupmobile with solid
disk wheels; I know that not all Hupmobiles had those solid wheels, though, but the body shape
reminds me of that car. This is probably an erroneous guess.

SGL

Any more photos of this subject. Very interesting. How were the top
rwo of cars secured ?

thks

Charlie Harris

Here is another interesting photo.

http://tinyurl.com/6jx22g <http://tinyurl.com/6jx22g>


Re: A Great Decline

Don Burn
 

Earl,

I don't have the references in front of me, but I believe the D&H, NH and Southern 36' box cars made it to 1950. L&N 36' box cars may have also. In additon there were a fair number of 40' wood box cars on a number of north eastern railroads in that era.

Don Burn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl T. Hackett" <hacketet@verizon.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 7:41 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: A Great Decline


A new list member. I got into this conversation a bit late, but would
like to suggest a reason for the variation in the decline of the short
box cars. The lines with the least declines are all south west roads.
The cars were all wood construction. Wood lasts a lot longer in the
desert SW than in the relatively wet NE. With reduced demand there
was no reason for the NE roads to repair the cars while the SW roads
may not have wanted to spend the money to scrap them out.

Did any of the short car last into the 50s? A short car would make an
interesting addition to my car fleet.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "laramielarry" <ostresh@...> wrote:

Hi Folks

Among the larger railroads - those with over 10,000 box/auto/vent
cars in 1938 - one of the biggest percentage losers was the ERIE,
which went from 23,624 cars in 1932 to 10,533 in 1938. The NYC went
from 89,932 cars to 63,111 and the PRR from 93,414 to 76,123. The
ATSF "only" declined from 39,997 to 35,826; the SP from 27,105 to
24,398; and the UP from 29,851 to 27,624.





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Re: A Great Decline

water.kresse@...
 

Larry,

I believe you have an interesting mix of events going on there. On the C&O: Auto rack equipped cars were going up after Evans Prod Co released their auto-loaders in 1933. Ventilated box cars car were going down, i.e. being converted into regular box cars. All steel box cars were replacing wooden-sheathed box cars. Dry-bulk covered hopper cars were replacing box cars for certain services. Reefers were replacing ventilated boxes also. Did your data include FGEX, PFEX, etc.

For the conservative C&O, coal carried them through the Depression. 1929 and 1934-37 were big years for buying twin hops. Their merchandise freight business was secondary until it absorbed the PM in 1947.

Wasn't the Erie into or near custodial bankruptcy and a reorganization in the 30s?

Your 1938 statistics seem to imply the we were in sad shape box car wise going into WW2?

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "laramielarry" <ostresh@uwyo.edu>
Hi Folks

I just finished transcribing portions of the February 1932 ORER into
an Excel spreadsheet (U.S. box, auto and ventilator car interior
dimensions, capacities, and number of cars, by series) and will soon
begin pestering you for information regarding sheathing type (double,
single, or steel sheathed). Before I do that, however, I thought
I would pass along some summary information that some of you might
find interesting, if not unexpected.

The total number of box, auto, and ventilator cars in 1932 was
1,025,203; in January 1938 it was 764,055. This is a reduction in
the U.S. fleet of over a quarter of a million cars, about 25%,
and presumably due to the Great Depression.

The attrition was not evenly distributed around the county: The
Great Lakes and the Southern ICC regions were hit especially hard,
both with a loss of about a third of their fleets. The Pocahontas
ICC region lost less than 5% of its cars.

Among the larger railroads those with over 10,000 box/auto/vent
cars in 1938 one of the biggest percentage losers was the ERIE,
which went from 23,624 cars in 1932 to 10,533 in 1938. The NYC went
from 89,932 cars to 63,111 and the PRR from 93,414 to 76,123. The
ATSF "only" declined from 39,997 to 35,826; the SP from 27,105 to
24,398; and the UP from 29,851 to 27,624.

Nearly all of the attrition was among the "shorty" cars those under
40 feet IL. In 1932 there were 394,573 such cars, while in 1938
there were 153,010. The number of cars with IL of 40 feet to just
less than 50 feet went from 604,785 to 578,349 a loss of less than
5%. The number of long cars (IL of 50 feet or longer) increased by
over 6%, from 25,845 to 32,696.

The decline in number of cars was accompanied by a decline in
aggregate capacity: In 1932 this was 2,944,908,870 cubic feet for
the U.S. box/auto/vent fleet; in 1938 it was 2,349,031,999 cubic feet
(it rebounded to 2,432,155,623 cu ft by April 1942, the last ORER for
which I have capacity in cubic feet). Measured in pounds, capacity
in 1932 was 85,884,780,000 lbs; in 1938 it was 67,018,717,000 lbs and
remained close to this figure until July 1950.

I posted an Excel file summarizing these data in the files section of
our list: "Number_of_boxcars_by_road_and_length_1932-1950.xls"

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: A Great Decline

Earl T. Hackett <hacketet@...>
 

A new list member. I got into this conversation a bit late, but would
like to suggest a reason for the variation in the decline of the short
box cars. The lines with the least declines are all south west roads.
The cars were all wood construction. Wood lasts a lot longer in the
desert SW than in the relatively wet NE. With reduced demand there
was no reason for the NE roads to repair the cars while the SW roads
may not have wanted to spend the money to scrap them out.

Did any of the short car last into the 50s? A short car would make an
interesting addition to my car fleet.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "laramielarry" <ostresh@...> wrote:

Hi Folks

Among the larger railroads – those with over 10,000 box/auto/vent
cars in 1938 – one of the biggest percentage losers was the ERIE,
which went from 23,624 cars in 1932 to 10,533 in 1938. The NYC went
from 89,932 cars to 63,111 and the PRR from 93,414 to 76,123. The
ATSF "only" declined from 39,997 to 35,826; the SP from 27,105 to
24,398; and the UP from 29,851 to 27,624.


Re: New Bulkhead HO scale 70-ton flatcar

Peter Ness
 

Back home with references now..

In 1958 and 1959 seven New Haven 17300-series 70-ton flats were
converted with the application of lading band anchors and bulkheads
by Pullman at Worcester, MA to series 19000-19006, Class FM-S.

Car numbers as follows:
19000 from 17335
19001 from 17324
19002 from 17336
19003 from 17366
19004 from 17361
19005 from 17389
19006 from 17398

I'll point out that car 19005 is shown on NH sketch 26047 as
converted from 17889. I belive this to be an error since 17800-
series NH flats were of a completely different design.

Also, beyond the scope of this group an additional group of twelve
17300-series flats was converted with short bulkheads for brick
service to the 19100-19111 series.

A reminder that many NH 17300-series flats were in TOFC service ca.
1944-53.

Regards,
Peter


PFE Standard Exterior Gray

brasada1976 <niccolise1976@...>
 

Hello

I am ready to paint a tichy HO scale 36 inch ice dock. I am planning to
paint the dock the PFE Standard Exterior Gray shown on page 419 in the
book PACIFIC FRUIT EXPRESS-Second Edition.

I tried to search this yahoo group but found no results.

What color and brand of paint would be correct?

Thank you in advance for any help you could provide.

Timothy in Illinois modeling California citrus


Re: giraffe loading, 1955

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

I remember seeing, either on this or another list, a depressed center flat car with a specially built wood enclosure complete with overhanging side air vents (similar to the radiator overhang on later GE diesels) for carrying standing giraffes. I think it was a 1950s photo. There was a container on the car platform for storing feed. Periodically, the car was stopped for feeding the giraffe. The animal handler would open a door/hatch on the upper front of the enclosure and hand food up to the giraffe. I don't know how the giraffe was tethered, perhaps like a horse in a horse trailer. It was a fascinating photo, not your every day rail shipment. I don't remember if the car was in a circus train or if it was a special shipment . If I can find it, I'll post it.
Regards,
Norm Larkin

----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Vlk
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] giraffe loading, 1955


Circus Stock Cars were taller than normal Automobile Box Cars, but not so much so that giraffes could stand up with their necks stretched at normal posture.
I guess they just got a pain in the neck or laid down.
Charlie Vlk

Hello Everyone,

Did they sedate the giraffe ? How did the circus do it?

John Riba
.


Re: A Great Decline

Ray Breyer
 

John Stokes wrote:
>>>Would relative age of cars on a specific railroad, say the Erie vs. the Santa Fe,
>>be a great part of this story? It would seem that the Depression did two things,
>>make a large number of old cars obsolete or redundant because of greatly reduced >>business, which was not uniform across the Nation, and it negated the ability,
>>again not uniformly, to replace the old stock with new. Are these reasonably
>>accurate assumptions?


Hi John,

That's what I'm seeing in my own ORER research. I'm giving a clinic at Naperville next weekend on the remnants of the short boxcar fleet in the USA and Canada after WWII. I used the January 1930 ORER as a baseline set of numbers for comparison purposes. In 1930 there were 1,224,702 boxcars in the USA and Canada, with 44% of those (538,150) being cars under 40 feet long.

By 1945, the overall number of boxcars had shrunk to 876,079 cars, with 124,873 short cars remaining (half of which were CN and CP cars). The number of all steel 40 and 50 foot cars had increased by at least 64,654 cars in the same period. Add in retirements of 40 foot plus cars and the total number of retired older boxcars over that 15 year period reaches almost 500,000 cars.

These are huge turnover numbers, and can only be attributed to the two things you mentioned, besides annual car losses (has anyone else noticed just how many cars a railroad would lose to wrecks in an average steam era year?). Remember, for good or bad, railroads are only in business to make a profit for their shareholders. "Golden Age" railroads were notoriously stingy when it came to their freight car fleets, which is why they stuck with conservative wood car designs for so long.


I do have to make one qualifier here. Of that half a million cars lost from the national fleet, almost 100,000 of those retired cars came from just two railroads: the Pennsy, which retired the 33,268 Xl class boxcars still on their roster, and over 60,599 short boxcars cars from the NYCS. By comparison the CN and CP combined only retired 29,607 cars during the same period.

The retirement of older cars from the steam era fleet makes for an interesting set of numbers. I'm going to tackle the trends in double sheathed boxcars next, followed by single sheathed cars.

Regards,

Ray Breyer


Re: New Bulkhead HO scale 70-ton flatcar

NHJJ4@...
 

Peter,
MM had a B&M car in it which had the same ends as NH but was a welded car.
The plans are real good for us that are trying to model the ends.
Jim Evans

In a message dated 10/26/2008 4:20:36 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
prness@roadrunner.com writes:




Back home with references now..

In 1958 and 1959 seven New Haven 17300-series 70-ton flats were
converted with the application of lading band anchors and bulkheads
by Pullman at Worcester, MA to series 19000-19006, Class FM-S.

Car numbers as follows:
19000 from 17335
19001 from 17324
19002 from 17336
19003 from 17366
19004 from 17361
19005 from 17389
19006 from 17398

I'll point out that car 19005 is shown on NH sketch 26047 as
converted from 17889. I belive this to be an error since 17800-
series NH flats were of a completely different design.

Also, beyond the scope of this group an additional group of twelve
17300-series flats was converted with short bulkheads for brick
service to the 19100-19111 series.

A reminder that many NH 17300-series flats were in TOFC service ca.
1944-53.

Regards,
Peter


Re: A Great Decline

Stokes John
 

Would relative age of cars on a specific railroad, say the Erie vs. the Santa Fe, be a great part of this story? It would seem that the Depression did two things, make a large number of old cars obsolete or redundant because of greatly reduced business, which was not uniform across the Nation, and it negated the ability, again not uniformly, to replace the old stock with new. Are these reasonably accurate assumptions?
Thanks,

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: ostresh@uwyo.eduDate: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:41:26 +0000Subject: [STMFC] A Great Decline




Hi FolksI just finished transcribing portions of the February 1932 ORER into an Excel spreadsheet (U.S. box, auto and ventilator car interior dimensions, capacities, and number of cars, by series) and will soon begin pestering you for information regarding sheathing type (double, single, or steel sheathed). Before I do that, however, I thought I would pass along some summary information that some of you might find interesting, if not unexpected.The total number of box, auto, and ventilator cars in 1932 was 1,025,203; in January 1938 it was 764,055. This is a reduction in the U.S. fleet of over a quarter of a million cars, about 25%, and presumably due to the Great Depression.The attrition was not evenly distributed around the county: The Great Lakes and the Southern ICC regions were hit especially hard, both with a loss of about a third of their fleets. The Pocahontas ICC region lost less than 5% of its cars.Best wishes,Larry OstreshLaramie, Wyoming


A Great Decline

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Hi Folks

I just finished transcribing portions of the February 1932 ORER into
an Excel spreadsheet (U.S. box, auto and ventilator car interior
dimensions, capacities, and number of cars, by series) and will soon
begin pestering you for information regarding sheathing type (double,
single, or steel sheathed). Before I do that, however, I thought
I would pass along some summary information that some of you might
find interesting, if not unexpected.

The total number of box, auto, and ventilator cars in 1932 was
1,025,203; in January 1938 it was 764,055. This is a reduction in
the U.S. fleet of over a quarter of a million cars, about 25%,
and presumably due to the Great Depression.

The attrition was not evenly distributed around the county: The
Great Lakes and the Southern ICC regions were hit especially hard,
both with a loss of about a third of their fleets. The Pocahontas
ICC region lost less than 5% of its cars.

Among the larger railroads – those with over 10,000 box/auto/vent
cars in 1938 – one of the biggest percentage losers was the ERIE,
which went from 23,624 cars in 1932 to 10,533 in 1938. The NYC went
from 89,932 cars to 63,111 and the PRR from 93,414 to 76,123. The
ATSF "only" declined from 39,997 to 35,826; the SP from 27,105 to
24,398; and the UP from 29,851 to 27,624.

Nearly all of the attrition was among the "shorty" cars – those under
40 feet IL. In 1932 there were 394,573 such cars, while in 1938
there were 153,010. The number of cars with IL of 40 feet to just
less than 50 feet went from 604,785 to 578,349 – a loss of less than
5%. The number of long cars (IL of 50 feet or longer) increased by
over 6%, from 25,845 to 32,696.

The decline in number of cars was accompanied by a decline in
aggregate capacity: In 1932 this was 2,944,908,870 cubic feet for
the U.S. box/auto/vent fleet; in 1938 it was 2,349,031,999 cubic feet
(it rebounded to 2,432,155,623 cu ft by April 1942, the last ORER for
which I have capacity in cubic feet). Measured in pounds, capacity
in 1932 was 85,884,780,000 lbs; in 1938 it was 67,018,717,000 lbs and
remained close to this figure until July 1950.

I posted an Excel file summarizing these data in the files section of
our list: "Number_of_boxcars_by_road_and_length_1932-1950.xls"

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Number_of_boxcars_by_road_and_length_1932-1950.xls
Uploaded by : laramielarry <ostresh@uwyo.edu>
Description : Number of box, auto, and ventilator cars, U.S., by road and inside car length, from ORERs of 1932, 1938, 1942, 1945, 1949 and 1950.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Number_of_boxcars_by_road_and_length_1932-1950.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

laramielarry <ostresh@uwyo.edu>

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