Date   

Re: I-GN 1932 ARA Upgrades

Ed Hawkins
 

On Nov 5, 2008, at 6:54 PM, David Bachand wrote:

am looking to upgrade my new Atlas model for the mid 50s time period
and have several ? How long did the MP subsidiaries retain their
reporting marks ? Did they receive the "Route of the Eagles slogan ?
The capacity of the Atlas model is 40 tons, is this correct for the
50s time frame or were the car capacities upgraded.

Thanks in advance for your responses
Dave Bachand
Dave,
The MP subsidiary lines continued until 1956 when the railroad came out
of receivership. It took at least a couple of years thereafter for all
of the cars to have the reporting marks changed. Cars repainted after
6/49 received Route of the Eagles slogans and larger 42" diameter
"buzzsaw" emblems. The cars originally had 40-ton trucks. According to
the 4/51 ORER, there were 296 of the original 300 cars (series
17001-17300) still in service. Of these, 265 had 50-ton trucks and 31
cars had 40-ton trucks. According to the MP diagram for these cars,
some 40-ton cars had cast iron wheels while other 40-ton cars and all
50-ton cars had steel wheels. I do not have any information that
specifies the quantity of cars and car number assignments of the
different types of wheels. The 4/51 ORER has a note specifying the 31
car numbers having 40-ton trucks.

The 4/55 ORER provides similar information on the I-GN cars, which at
the time had 266 50-ton cars and 28 40-ton cars in service.

By the way, as far as I can tell all of the M.P. 1932 ARA box cars came
with 50-ton trucks.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: I-GN 1932 ARA Upgrades

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Dave:
The MP took full control of the I-GN in 1956 cars started to be repainted
at that time. More problematic for the mid 1950's modeler is starting in
1949 the buzzsaw herald was changed from 25" to 42" and the "Route of the
Eagles" slogan was added. I've had conversations with Ed Hawkins and it was
rare for the older scheme to survive until my 1957 era. If you are modeling
1953 or earlier it may be more likely. you also need a universal power hand
brake for the cars. Some cars did get 50 ton trucks later in life, however,
I do not know how many.

The MP and subsidiaries still had 2928 of these cars in 1957, approximately
10% of their fleet. I need 2 for my layout. I am waiting for Atlas to do
these cars in the later Route of the Eagles scheme.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bachand" <jambachand@verizon.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:54 PM
Subject: [STMFC] I-GN 1932 ARA Upgrades


I am looking to upgrade my new Atlas model for the mid 50s time period
and have several ? How long did the MP subsidiaries retain their
reporting marks ? Did they receive the "Route of the Eagles slogan ?
The capacity of the Atlas model is 40 tons, is this correct for the
50s time frame or were the car capacities upgraded.

Thanks in advance for your responses
Dave Bachand


Re: I-GN 1932 ARA Upgrades

George Hollwedel
 

Mid 50s still ok for I-GN. "Route of Eagles" slogans started being added in 1949, who knows if or when they all got slogans. Can't answer capacity question.

Prototype N Scale Models (TM)
by George Hollwedel
310 Loma Verde St
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883
http://www.micro-trains.com/sr-0810-CurrentMonth.php#0810_Hollwedel
www.micro-trains.com/hollwedel.php
http://www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollSP50SDBoxN.htm
www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollATSFExpressN.htm

--- On Wed, 11/5/08, David Bachand <jambachand@verizon.net> wrote:

From: David Bachand <jambachand@verizon.net>
Subject: [STMFC] I-GN 1932 ARA Upgrades
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 6:54 PM
I am looking to upgrade my new Atlas model for the mid 50s
time period
and have several ? How long did the MP subsidiaries retain
their
reporting marks ? Did they receive the "Route of the
Eagles slogan ?
The capacity of the Atlas model is 40 tons, is this correct
for the
50s time frame or were the car capacities upgraded.

Thanks in advance for your responses
Dave Bachand


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



HO ATSF 5000 Class 2-10-4

Paul Hillman
 

Who currently makes an, HO ATSF 5000 Class 2-10-4 ?

I got an, "Historic Rail", catalog in the mail today and on the back
cover there is one shown, but no manufacturer, as they often don't
list. I couldn't get them by phone tonight.

I searched google, etc., and can't find any current maker of one.
Anyone know?

Thanks, Paul Hillman


I-GN 1932 ARA Upgrades

David Bachand <jambachand@...>
 

I am looking to upgrade my new Atlas model for the mid 50s time period
and have several ? How long did the MP subsidiaries retain their
reporting marks ? Did they receive the "Route of the Eagles slogan ?
The capacity of the Atlas model is 40 tons, is this correct for the
50s time frame or were the car capacities upgraded.

Thanks in advance for your responses
Dave Bachand


NC&StL boxcars 13500-15099; SS, DS or both?

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Hi Folks

An article by Martin Lofton, "NC&StL Box car - 36 foot steel rebuilds"
(MM, July 1990), says: "The NC&StL rebuilt the 36' cars in their shops
from 1939 through 1947 with most of the cars completed in the pre-war
period. The cars were originally Fowler design boxcars of the 13500-
15099 series. They had been constructed by the road in the period from
1909 through 1913."

However, a builder's photo from American Car and Foundry (Westerfield
CD, photo 5372) shows car 13500, build date 1909, and it is clearly
double sheathed. The lot list shows that AC&F built 100 of these
cars. (In 1932, there were 1,355 cars in the series 13599-15099.
Their dimensions agree exactly with the ones shown in the photograph.)
Does anyone know whether the series contained both DS and SS cars?

Thanks,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Protowest/Sunshine AAR flatcar

Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

I have a Protowest NYC AAR flatcar kit. It's very short on prototype data. I
think I've found enough to finish it. But if someone happens to have the
Sunshine version, Kit #s 33.11-33.18, I'd appreciate it if you would share a
copy of the PDS and instructions.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon


Re: I-GN 1932 ARA Upgrades

asychis@...
 

"I am looking to upgrade my new Atlas model for the mid 50s time period
and have several ? How long did the MP subsidiaries retain their
reporting marks ?"

The subsidiaries were merged in 1956 when the MP was reorganized. Complete
change of the reporting marks took awhile after that. Some cars retained their
original subsidiary reporting marks into the early 1960s.

"Did they receive the "Route of the Eagles slogan ?

Yes, both before and after the reporting marks were changed"

The capacity of the Atlas model is 40 tons, is this correct for the
50s time frame or were the car capacities upgraded.

"That I am not sure of, but I think they stayed the same unless changed to
some other service.

Jerry Michels

**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
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Re: from 40' 6' to 50' 6" box cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

AL Kresse wrote:
I agree on the Lt Wt issue. They experimented with 0.075" thk HSLA steels just prior to the war and then re-upped the ga. again. HSLA (then called high tensile) steel was used in side-sheets but at the older std thicknesses.
This is a subtle point. The stronger steel is no STIFFER, so making it thinner makes it prone to buckling, and that's what happened to some box cars with thinner side sheets: wrinkling, etc. This can be solved by adding intermediate posts between the regular side posts (that's the so-called "Alternate Center Riveting" or ACR box car design), but then the weight of the extra posts offsets the weight saving of the thinner steel.
This emphasizes that much of structural design, including box cars, is based on stiffness and not on strength. The best illustration of that is the dreadnaught end. It is trivially STRONGER than a flat end, but greatly STIFFER. The same goes for underframes, sides and roofs.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


Re: 36' Fowler/Dominion cars and "almosts"...

cinderandeight@...
 

I won't begin to claim any deep knowledge of Fowler cars, but I noted the
list was missing Pacific Great Eastern. Their ORER listing in Jan. 1948
says:"freight cars owned are only used in switching service with direct connections";
an earlier listing (Oct. 1937) states "cars are not employed in interstate
commerce".. I have four shots of PGE stock cars (555, 562, 575 & 588), all of
which look like Fowler cars.
Rich Burg
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)


Re: from 40' 6' to 50' 6" box cars

water.kresse@...
 

Garth,

The C&O bought plug-in kits in the late-50s from Youngston Steel Co (blt up in southern Indiana ?) to stretch 40-ft cars into 50-ft cars (mostly P-S 1's) at their Raceland and Wyoming Shops.

Al

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@virginia.edu>
Al,

How about customer preferences? On the Western Pacific (admittedly not a
mid-western or eastern road), 50' boxcars became the norm by the mid to
late 1950s due to customer demand. WP 50-footers were largely used for
auto parts and for lumber. In both cases, it was not only car size, but
also large door openings which were handy for forklifts, that made these
cars attractive to shippers. Once the WP (and subsidiaries Sacramento
Northern and Tidewater Southern) began buying 50' PS-1s in 1954, they
never looked back at 40' cars, except for a few specialized cars for
appliance loading (which might again have been customer preference).
Indeed, in the early 1960s, many of WP 40' PS-1s were returned to
Pullman for lengthening (but that's beyond the STMFP boundaries). ;-)

Kind regards,

Garth G. Groff

al.kresse wrote:
Folks,

Do we have the short list of key reasons (such as market and
technology) for the shifting of "standard" NEW and REBUILT steel box
cars becoming 50-ft vs previously 40-ft box cars after WW2 and into the
fifties? Especially in the midwest and east?

Al Kresse


Re: from 40' 6' to 50' 6" box cars

water.kresse@...
 

Richard,

My midwest reference was aimed at focusing on midwest railroads' needs. If universal across the States and Canada . . . great . . . even better.

Al

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:48 AM, al.kresse wrote:

Do we have the short list of key reasons (such as market and
technology) for the shifting of "standard" NEW and REBUILT steel box
cars becoming 50-ft vs previously 40-ft box cars after WW2 and into
the
fifties? Especially in the midwest and east?
No mystery here. After WW II box car traffic increasingly shifted
toward lighter, bulkier loads, notably auto parts, for which 50' cars
were better suited. This trend was reinforced by the development of
covered hoppers for grain service, replacing the 40' box cars with
grain doors that had formerly been used. And I would take issue with
your "especially in the midwest and east" statement. For example,
the Santa Fe built their last 40' box cars in 1952; all new box cars
delivered after that date were 50' cars. The same decision was made
by the Southern Pacific only a year later, in 1953.
Essentially, by the early 1950s most RRs owned all the 40' box cars
they needed, while much new rail traffic required longer cars with,
in many cases, DF loaders and other special loading equipment.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: 36' Fowler/Dominion cars and "almosts"...

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, destron@... wrote:


I've been poking around trying to compile a list of 36' "Fowler"
cars...
I've gotten to a stage now where I've got a short list of definitely
Fowler/Dominion cars, and a longer list of possibles (of which I'm
sure a
number are actually DS cars, but can't tell that from the ORER
info...)

For the cars I'm sure are Fowlers or almost-those, the list is (*
marks
those I've got photos for):

CN, various series
CP, various series

Algoma Central 3001-3020, 3051-3080
BAR 9000-9699*, 9800-10399
DW&P 400800-401549
Erie 86000-86999, 93000-93999*
Fc. Mexicano 8100-8199*
GTW 417500-420149*, 440300-440627
NC&StL 16100-16599*, 13500-15099, 15100-16099
NdeM 65700-65800*
New York, Susquehanna & Western 1500-1563*
Piedmont & Northern 12000-12074*
Quebec Central 3100-3198*
Quebec Rly, Light & Power 1016-1029, 1100-1109, 1110-1119
Roberval-Saguenay 536-537
SOO 12800-14298*
Sydney & Louisburg 102-115
TEM 80000-80098, 80100-80198, 80200-80398, 80400-80498*
TH&B 3000-3132, 4000-4301*
WM 28002-28003 (ex-Erie)

Now, the others I'm not certain of, but tend to assume so based on
evidence of other Fowler series with the road (or with the
parent/close
relative road):

BAR 8100-8599, 8700-8799
CNJ 14000-14499 (drawing seems to suggest it)
CV 70731-71730, 71800-72049
DSS&A 11067-11569
NC&StL 24500-24599
SOO 28312+28456, 106600-107908, 108056-109908
M&StL 26000-26400
WAB 78000-78199 (read about these, are they 36' or 40'?)

And these are the "just guessing" that might well be DS cars or
other
unrelated things:

Ala., Tenn. & Northern 15001-15150
Ann Arbor 69000-69286
B&M 12138-12258, 12301-12392, 64682-68247, 68317, 68333-68390
Belt Rly of Chicago 802-850, 852-862
C&EI 37002-37748, 635-699
Canton RR 400-420
CIL 2000-3600 (or were these the Monon SU cars?)
Clinchfield 3300-3833
Delaware & Northern 501-551
Detroit & Mackinac 2751
DMIR 5342-5390
FW&D 4400-5299
GM&O 43000-43299 (or were these SU cars?)
Kentucky & Tennessee 304-306
L&A 1851-1859
L&N 4000-5049, 5350-5549, 5050-5199, 5300-5349, 5550-5999, 6001-
6999,
7000-7182, 7300-7499, 9000-9799
Lake Superior & Ishpeming 2026
Manistique & Lake Superior 50-52
Manufacturers Junction 1040-1049
Minnesota, Dakota & Western 3004-3005
Mississippi Central 4000-4109
MKTT 170000-170228
MN&S 2501-2510
Montana, Wyoming & Southern 326-569
NdeM 44000-44016, 13503-13515
NdeT 2010-3595
NKP 97000-97999
NYO&W 9201-9907
Reading 2000-3999, 14500-14999, 15700-15999, 17500-18479, 18500-
18699
SN 2101-2105, 2249
SPdeM 8304-8820
Tremont & Gulf 476, 666, 674
Wyandotte Terminal 38, 80, 82, 84

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC
Hi Frank

The NEB&W web site lists the DW&P 400800-401549 series as double
sheathed, built by Haskell & Barker in 1917. They were originally in
the 30000-31498 series; the 1932 ORER lists cars in both series.

Here are some additional cars that are Fowler, Fowler-like, or 36'
single-sheathed:

B&O 178500-178841, 190300-190398 (Former CI&W 18301-18650, 19201-
19300, Fowler, MM, Apr. 1986)
BAR 10000-10139 (SS, Al Brown, STMFC #75622, 8/24/08)
The Belt Railway Co. of Chicago 801-850 (SS, Jan. 1938 ORER, p. 486)
CGW 27000-27998 (SS, AC&F photo of 27904, lot 7504)
Central Railroad Company of Pennsylvania 14000-14499 (Fowler-like,
NEB&W web site)
ERIE 80995, 85000-85999 (SS or Fowler-like, MM, Apr. 1986)
GA 18500-18674 (SS, Jan. 1938 ORER, p. 97)
GT 100000-102999 (in 1932 ORER GTW, but with GT markings) (Fowler,
Westerfield web site)
IC 11000-11344 (SS, 1927 IC equipment list – personal communication
from Ray Breyer)
ITC 8000-8199 (Fowler or Fowler-like, NEB&W web site)
Chicago South Shore & South Bend R.R., 1501-1505 (Fowler or Fowler-
like, NEB&W web site)
NH 70000-70999, 170000-170999 (Built as DS, but rebuilt as SS in 1927-
1928, Westerfield 10500 series)
NKP 97000-97999 (Former TStL&W 7000-7999, Fowler, MM, Apr. 1986)
Pittsburg, Shawmut and Northern 9900-9949 (SS, personal communication
from Ray Breyer)
SB&M 1254-2050 (SS, NEB&W web site)
WABASH 75000-77199 (SS 36' 5", Jan. 1938 ORER, p. 444, AC&F photos of
75699 and 76200, lots 6615 and 8063)
WABASH 77200-78199 (SS 36' 5", Jan. 1938 ORER, p. 444)

Many of your hypothesized Fowler cars are DS: CV, AT&N, AA,
Clinchfield, FW&D, L&N, MD&W, MSC, MKTT, NYO&W, RDG, and T&G.
(Sources: NEB&W web site or STMFC posts.)

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh,
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: from 40' 6' to 50' 6" box cars

water.kresse@...
 

Tony,

I agree on the Lt Wt issue. They experimented with 0.075" thk HSLA steels just prior to the war and then re-upped the ga. again. HSLA (then called high tensile) steel was used in side-sheets but at the older std thicknesses.

Al

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
Frank Greene wrote:
Stronger, lighter materials allowed larger cars to be operated. More
freight could be hauled in one car for less cost. Chachinggg...
Nope to this one. Cars were still being built out of simple,
plain-carbon steel. Certainly design had improved, with far smaller
center sills once the ARA design became standard for all-steel box
cars. Even the slightly higher strength steels used in the 1960s did
not really change dimensions of structural parts. And "lighter?" Nope.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


Re: from 40' 6' to 50' 6" box cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Frank Greene wrote:
Stronger, lighter materials allowed larger cars to be operated. More freight could be hauled in one car for less cost. Chachinggg...
Nope to this one. Cars were still being built out of simple, plain-carbon steel. Certainly design had improved, with far smaller center sills once the ARA design became standard for all-steel box cars. Even the slightly higher strength steels used in the 1960s did not really change dimensions of structural parts. And "lighter?" Nope.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


Re: WOW- New HO rubber freight car brake hoses

Paul Lyons
 

Andy,

That could be, but?I spoke directly with Keren, his wife, and she knew what I wanted--freight car air?hoses. I have been waiting for them since Anaheim. I have sent Jimmy an email asking for clarification on what i was sent.?

If they look like the web site, I believe I can make them work with the PSC bracket and that would be fanastic!

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA?

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Carlson <midcentury@sbcglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 8:12 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: WOW- New HO rubber freight car brake hoses






Paul,
Jim just released his FREIGHT CAR HOSES this week. Jim released his DIESEL MU HOSES at last summer's NHRA show. Could that be the problem? The freight car hoses I got from Jim at Naperville look just like his web site photos to me.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- On Wed, 11/5/08, cobrapsl@aol.com <cobrapsl@aol.com> wrote:

THE
REAL PROBLEM I HAVE IS THAT THE HOSES I RECIEVED LAST WEEK
FROM HI-TECH DO NOT LOOK LIKE THE ONES ON THEIR WEB SITE.


Re: from 40' 6' to 50' 6" box cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:48 AM, al.kresse wrote:

Do we have the short list of key reasons (such as market and
technology) for the shifting of "standard" NEW and REBUILT steel box
cars becoming 50-ft vs previously 40-ft box cars after WW2 and into
the
fifties? Especially in the midwest and east?





No mystery here. After WW II box car traffic increasingly shifted
toward lighter, bulkier loads, notably auto parts, for which 50' cars
were better suited. This trend was reinforced by the development of
covered hoppers for grain service, replacing the 40' box cars with
grain doors that had formerly been used. And I would take issue with
your "especially in the midwest and east" statement. For example,
the Santa Fe built their last 40' box cars in 1952; all new box cars
delivered after that date were 50' cars. The same decision was made
by the Southern Pacific only a year later, in 1953.
Essentially, by the early 1950s most RRs owned all the 40' box cars
they needed, while much new rail traffic required longer cars with,
in many cases, DF loaders and other special loading equipment.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: from 40' 6' to 50' 6" box cars

np328
 

I believe there was a tariff published post war for low weight,
high volume articles like washing machines, boxed cereal, and so on.
There had to be a 30,00 pound threshold reached for this tariff to
apply. I believe I saw this in a 1946-1947 Railway Age. Short blurb,
however it specifically talked about how this was increasing the
pressure for 50ft boxcars.

(Let's see, 15 tons of Special K. Yep, better get a fifty footer)

Jim Dick - St. Paul

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al.kresse" <water.kresse@...> wrote:
Folks, Do we have the short list of key reasons (such as market and
technology) for the shifting of "standard" NEW and REBUILT steel box
cars becoming 50-ft vs previously 40-ft box cars after WW2 and into
the fifties? Especially in the midwest and east?
Al Kresse


Re: WOW- New HO rubber freight car brake hoses

Frank Greene
 

cobrapsl@aol.com wrote:
THE REAL PROBLEM I HAVE IS THAT THE HOSES I RECIEVED LAST WEEK FROM HI-TECH DO NOT LOOK LIKE THE ONES ON THEIR WEB SITE. A CALL TO JIMMY BOOTH IS ON MY TO DO LIST.
...I AM NOT SURE WHAT IS INTENTED

HiTech lists 3 part numbers: 6036 and 6037 are for freight cars (without and with "bungee" hanger straps, respectively) and 6034 is diesel MU hoses. All 3 types are illustrated, but if yours don't look like any of them, then... :-&#92;

The web site shows how HiTech envisioned them being used. Of course, that means we try to figure out other uses and ways to install them. Joe Average-Modeler can install them as HiTech instructs and have better models. It's apparent, though, that many in this group are more exacting and will either try to adapt the HiTech hoses to their requirements or move on to something else.


THEY HAVE A CURVE THAT IS PRETTY NICE, BUT THEY ARE SO FLEXABLE THERE IS NO BENDING THEM.

I'm sure you mean they are so flexible that they won't hold a bent position. I like Dennis' suggestion for mounting them with the PSC bracket.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: from 40' 6' to 50' 6" box cars

Frank Greene
 

al.kresse wrote:
Folks,

Do we have the short list of key reasons (such as market and technology) for the shifting of "standard" NEW and REBUILT steel box cars becoming 50-ft vs previously 40-ft box cars after WW2 and into the fifties? Especially in the midwest and east?

Al Kresse

The trend didn't start after WWII, it had been ongoing since the time of Stephenson, Allen, et al (i.e., 24' all wood cars to 36' wood or steel frame cars to 40' all steel cars). Capitalism is the ultimate driver: increase revenues while driving down the cost of earning the revenue. In a highly regulated RR industry, the RR has less ability or flexibility to generate revenue with innovation. Therefore, they have to put more emphasis on controlling cost to maintain or increase earning.

Stronger, lighter materials allowed larger cars to be operated. More freight could be hauled in one car for less cost. Chachinggg...

Diesel electric locomotives could pull trains consisting of more, heavier cars for the same operating cost, thus increasing revenue per train. Chachinggg...

Increasing operating costs (e.g., wages, materials.and consumables that included their own cost of increased wages, materials and consumables, etc.) for both shippers and RRs. The increased cost of operating larger freight cars built with lighter materials was not directly proportional to the increased size (i.e., it didn't cost 25% more). Chachinggg...

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN

111801 - 111820 of 188615