Date   

Re: Need Help with Photo Location

Jim Lancaster
 

Thanks Robert (and others) for your help. With your description I was able to get a similar view from the Street View option on Google Maps. See
http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/google_st_view_1.jpg

Regarding the question of why the freight cars would be on the passenger mainline, I've had a couple of responses pointing out that this location is close to the Bronx Terminal Market where the Eastern Wine Company (who owned the Chateau Martin brand) was located. John Horvath offered this explanation on the Yahoo milk trains list:

"My initial reaction at seeing a train of reefers at this location is
one of surprise. The only thing I can think of is that it's a local
freight working cars to the Bronx Terminal Market (where Chateau Martin
was located) which would be a mile or two to the west of this location
up the Hudson line. The shadows suggest midday or early afternoon when
passenger traffic through that busy junction would be minimal so
perhaps the main is being used to drill cars going to the Market."

Jim Lancaster

On Nov 21, 2008, at 11:35 PM, Robert Bogie wrote:

Jim,

The photo was taken on the NYC Electric Division. The exact location is at the south end of the Mott Haven coach yard. The large building behind the reefers is a US Post Office building and the interlocking tower to the right is MO Tower. The cars are sitting on the mainline from Grand Central Terminal and at that point they are curving to the west to head towards Spuyten Duyvil, before turning to the north to Harmon and then points west. The tracks that can be seen in the foreground are the approach leads to Mott Haven yard and part of yard A. Out of view in the foreground are the mainline tracks for the Harlem Division. To the left out of view is the road overbridge for E 149th Street. Also out of view to the right of the photo and behind MO tower are the two tracks that connect the mainline to the Harlem Division and the Port Morris branch, which is where you would normally expect to see freight cars. So the photo raises the question of why these freight reefers are sitting on this busy passenger mainline. The date would be prior to mid sixties, judging by the manicured garden in the middle of the photo. A similar view of this location can be seen on page 15 in the book by HF Cavanaugh titled "New York Central System Gone But Not Forgotten".

Regards,

Robert Bogie
Melbourne, Australia

--- Original Message -----
From: Lancaster James
To: STMFC@... ; milktrains@...
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Need Help with Photo Location


I have obtained a photo of a Chateau Martin wine car in a train of
reefers. The photo is at
http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/ cm_in_train_001.jpg
Does anyone recognize the location? The tracks in the foreground
with the third rail probably indicate someplace in or near New York
City.

Jim Lancaster






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: UTLX question

Eric Hansmann
 

--- Steve Lucas wrote:

It'd be nice to see an X-3 come out as a kit or RTR.
===================================


Steve,

Sunshine Models released an HO scale resin kit for the UTLX X-3 cars
in 2002 ot 2003. Kit details can be found here:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/new%
20products/sunshine/utlxx3_1main.html

Some finished and in-process models can be seen on this page:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/vm/vm21/vm21main.html

As far as I know, these kits are still available directly from
Sunshine Models. There are a few different types representing
different capacities. Sunshine has no web presence, but a satisfied
customer created a website with kit details and ordering info.
http://www.sunshinekits.com/contactsunshine.html

These are challenging kits that build into very nice models. If you
are not familiar with resin kit construction, you may want to start
with a gondola or box car to gain confidence before tackling one of
the UTLX models.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: LIFE Magazine Photos- PFE Reefers

Charles Morrill
 

I've been in Bisbee and it definitely is not Bisbee, AZ. If the Arizona part is correct, perhaps it is Phoenix.
Charlie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] RE: LIFE Magazine Photos- PFE Reefers



Is that photo really from Bisbee Arizona? I thought Bisbee was
only a copper mining town. I can't find any information in the
PFE book on an icing plant or large produce facility in Bisbee.
The wide valley with background mountains looks more like Colton
or some other California location... It's not unusual for photos
on web sites to be misidentified.

Tim O'Connor



Courtesy of Bruce Morden from Carpenteria, CA, we have this link to a
LIFE Magazine photo showing PFE reefers being loaded in Arizona:

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=72941a1fc7cd792c
<http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=72941a1fc7cd792c>

Bob Chaparro
Moderator
Citrus Industry Modeling Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/citrusmodeling/ <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/citrusmodeling/>
Extremely 'cool' shot (sorry, bad pun). Would these reefers have been iced BEFORE this loading was
done, or after. I do see the "UNION ICE COMPANY" in the background.

SGL

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





Re: Need Help with Photo Location

Jim Lancaster
 

I bought the slide on Ebay for $1.99. The slide is Anscochrome and was processed by Pavelle Color (which was in New York City). The slide is undated but a NY Times Business and Finance section article from August 10, 1956 had the headline "PAVELLE COLOR IS SOLD; Technicolor Corp. Purchases New York Film Processor."

Jim Lancaster

On Nov 22, 2008, at 5:39 AM, Richard Yoder wrote:

Thtat's a great old photo. Where did you find it?

Sincerely, Rich Yoder
7 Edgedale Court
Wyomissing PA 19610-1913
610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM
www.richyodermodels.com




-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Robert Bogie
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:35 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Need Help with Photo Location

Jim,

The photo was taken on the NYC Electric Division. The exact location is
at the south end of the Mott Haven coach yard. The large building behind
the reefers is a US Post Office building and the interlocking tower to
the right is MO Tower. The cars are sitting on the mainline from Grand
Central Terminal and at that point they are curving to the west to head
towards Spuyten Duyvil, before turning to the north to Harmon and then
points west. The tracks that can be seen in the foreground are the
approach leads to Mott Haven yard and part of yard A. Out of view in the
foreground are the mainline tracks for the Harlem Division. To the left
out of view is the road overbridge for E 149th Street. Also out of view
to the right of the photo and behind MO tower are the two tracks that
connect the mainline to the Harlem Division and the Port Morris branch,
which is where you would normally expect to see freight cars. So the
photo raises the question of why these freight reefers are sitting on
this busy passenger mainline. The date would be prior to mid sixties,
judging by the manicured garden in the middle of the photo. A similar
view of this location can be seen on page 15 in the book by HF Cavanaugh
titled "New York Central System Gone But Not Forgotten".

Regards,

Robert Bogie
Melbourne, Australia

--- Original Message -----
From: Lancaster James
To: STMFC@... ; milktrains@...
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Need Help with Photo Location


I have obtained a photo of a Chateau Martin wine car in a train of
reefers. The photo is at

http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/ cm_in_train_001.jpg
Does anyone recognize the location? The tracks in the foreground
with the third rail probably indicate someplace in or near New York
City.

Jim Lancaster






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Need Help with Photo Location

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

A few thoughts here. Would the cars have been destined to, or be
from, the West Side Freight Line?

And how did the cars get to New York City in the first place? Likely
on NYC NY-4, routed through Elkhart, Detroit, St. Thomas, Niagara
Falls, and the Falls Road Line to Rochester. It carried Santa Fe
reefers on the head end, and was probably THE hottest freight train
on the Caso.

And those Santa Fe reefers are quite filthy on the outside. Much
dirtier than most modellers dare to weather cars. Contrasting the
cars' dirtiness is the almost manicured lawn and shrubberies around
the interlocking tower.

Steve Lucas.


-- In STMFC@..., "Robert Bogie" <robertb@...> wrote:

Jim,

The photo was taken on the NYC Electric Division. The exact
location is at the south end of the Mott Haven coach yard. The large
building behind the reefers is a US Post Office building and the
interlocking tower to the right is MO Tower. The cars are sitting on
the mainline from Grand Central Terminal and at that point they are
curving to the west to head towards Spuyten Duyvil, before turning to
the north to Harmon and then points west. The tracks that can be seen
in the foreground are the approach leads to Mott Haven yard and part
of yard A. Out of view in the foreground are the mainline tracks for
the Harlem Division. To the left out of view is the road overbridge
for E 149th Street. Also out of view to the right of the photo and
behind MO tower are the two tracks that connect the mainline to the
Harlem Division and the Port Morris branch, which is where you would
normally expect to see freight cars. So the photo raises the question
of why these freight reefers are sitting on this busy passenger
mainline. The date would be prior to mid sixties, judging by the
manicured garden in the middle of the photo. A similar view of this
location can be seen on page 15 in the book by HF Cavanaugh
titled "New York Central System Gone But Not Forgotten".

Regards,

Robert Bogie
Melbourne, Australia

--- Original Message -----
From: Lancaster James
To: STMFC@... ; milktrains@...
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Need Help with Photo Location


I have obtained a photo of a Chateau Martin wine car in a train
of
reefers. The photo is at
http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/cm_in_train_001.jp
g
Does anyone recognize the location? The tracks in the foreground
with the third rail probably indicate someplace in or near New
York
City.

Jim Lancaster




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: LIFE Magazine Photos- PFE Reefers

Tim O'Connor
 

Is that photo really from Bisbee Arizona? I thought Bisbee was
only a copper mining town. I can't find any information in the
PFE book on an icing plant or large produce facility in Bisbee.
The wide valley with background mountains looks more like Colton
or some other California location... It's not unusual for photos
on web sites to be misidentified.

Tim O'Connor

Courtesy of Bruce Morden from Carpenteria, CA, we have this link to a
LIFE Magazine photo showing PFE reefers being loaded in Arizona:

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=72941a1fc7cd792c
<http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=72941a1fc7cd792c>

Bob Chaparro
Moderator
Citrus Industry Modeling Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/citrusmodeling/ <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/citrusmodeling/>
Extremely 'cool' shot (sorry, bad pun). Would these reefers have been iced BEFORE this loading was
done, or after. I do see the "UNION ICE COMPANY" in the background.

SGL


Re: UTLX question

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

It'd be nice to see an X-3 come out as a kit or RTR. Something tells
me that this won't happen any time soon, as away from this board in
the rest of the model rail hobby, tank cars are "all the same" to
most modellers. (sigh)

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Nov 21, 2008, at 5:37 AM, comox11 wrote:

.... I have a number of the P2K ACF type 21 tank cars and am
wondering if the
ACF built UTLX cars were to an ACF design (like the type 21 and/or
type 27) or a UTLX design. TIA, Guy Brooke




Guy, the tank cars AC&F built new for UTL were all of UTL design.
However, UTL acquired the tank car fleets of many private owners,
especially during the depression years in the early 1930s, and the
P2K models are painted and lettered on the basis of photographic
evidence showing those second-hand cars after being repainted and
restenciled UTLX. So they are prototypically accurate, but it
should
be added that they were only a small part of the UTL fleet; by far
the greatest number of UTLX tank cars were of UTL's own X-3 design.

Richard Hendrickson





Re: LIFE Magazine Photos- PFE Reefers

Schuyler Larrabee
 


Courtesy of Bruce Morden from Carpenteria, CA, we have this link to a
LIFE Magazine photo showing PFE reefers being loaded in Arizona:

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=72941a1fc7cd792c
<http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=72941a1fc7cd792c>

Bob Chaparro
Moderator
Citrus Industry Modeling Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/citrusmodeling/ <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/citrusmodeling/>
Extremely 'cool' shot (sorry, bad pun). Would these reefers have been iced BEFORE this loading was
done, or after. I do see the "UNION ICE COMPANY" in the background.

SGL


Re: Need Help with Photo Location

Tim O'Connor
 

It is not reasonable to infer that from a single photo.
It wouldn't even be reasonable if you had 6 such photos.
Perhaps the photographer was obsessed with wine cars. Or
maybe there was a wholesaler near Mott Haven who bought
wine. Or... any number of other circumstances.

Tim O'Connor

Is it reasonable to infer from this photo that Chateau Martin
cars were more likely to arrive in NYC by NYC than by other roads?
SGL


Re: Need Help with Photo Location

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Is it reasonable to infer from this photo that Chateau Martin cars were more likely to arrive in NYC
by NYC than by other roads?

SGL

Jim,

The photo was taken on the NYC Electric Division. The exact location is at the south end of the
Mott Haven coach yard.
The large building behind the reefers is a US Post Office building and the interlocking tower to
the right is MO Tower.
The cars are sitting on the mainline from Grand Central Terminal and at that point they are
curving to the west to head
towards Spuyten Duyvil, before turning to the north to Harmon and then points west. The tracks
that can be seen in the
foreground are the approach leads to Mott Haven yard and part of yard A. Out of view in the
foreground are the
mainline tracks for the Harlem Division. To the left out of view is the road overbridge for E
149th Street. Also out of
view to the right of the photo and behind MO tower are the two tracks that connect the mainline to
the Harlem Division
and the Port Morris branch, which is where you would normally expect to see freight cars. So the
photo raises the
question of why these freight reefers are sitting on this busy passenger mainline. The date would
be prior to mid sixties,
judging by the manicured garden in the middle of the photo. A similar view of this location can be
seen on page 15 in
the book by HF Cavanaugh titled "New York Central System Gone But Not Forgotten".

Regards,

Robert Bogie
Melbourne, Australia

--- Original Message -----
From: Lancaster James
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ; milktrains@...
<mailto:milktrains%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Need Help with Photo Location

I have obtained a photo of a Chateau Martin wine car in a train of
reefers. The photo is at
http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/cm_in_train_001.jpg
<http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/cm_in_train_001.jpg>
Does anyone recognize the location? The tracks in the foreground
with the third rail probably indicate someplace in or near New York
City.

Jim Lancaster






LOOKING FOR HERALD

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

I am looking for a good broadside photo or drawing of the D&IR "Safety Spirit" herald in order to do decal art. Can anyone supply a scan? - Al Westerfield


More Hoppers

Justin Kahn
 

Thanks to Richard Hendrickson for the ATSF lead on the offset-side quad with atypical doors; while I could wish there were an eastern or at least midwestern prototype,
I am glad to have at least one possibility. And I do have one ATSF triple hopper from the collection of the late Lorrell Joiner which I have been reluctant to strip and redo.

The other problematic Max Gray car is a rib (i.e., external) side triple hopper with rounded end extensions; I already owned a similar car with panelsides, apparently a C&O prototype, so I would assume the C&O had these, as well (some of which were presumably re-built with the panelsides). My question is whether anyone else had these cars? The Max Gray spotters guide shows the plain ribside version lettered for T&P, but model railroaders were not so fastidious about prototype 30+ years ago.

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.




_________________________________________________________________
Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_112008


Re: LIFE Magazine Photos- PFE Reefers

James Eckman
 

Wouldn't that make a great scene!

Thanks,
Jim


Re: Need Help with Photo Location

Rich Yoder
 

Thtat's a great old photo. Where did you find it?

Sincerely, Rich Yoder
7 Edgedale Court
Wyomissing PA 19610-1913
610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM
www.richyodermodels.com

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Robert Bogie
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:35 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Need Help with Photo Location

Jim,

The photo was taken on the NYC Electric Division. The exact location is
at the south end of the Mott Haven coach yard. The large building behind
the reefers is a US Post Office building and the interlocking tower to
the right is MO Tower. The cars are sitting on the mainline from Grand
Central Terminal and at that point they are curving to the west to head
towards Spuyten Duyvil, before turning to the north to Harmon and then
points west. The tracks that can be seen in the foreground are the
approach leads to Mott Haven yard and part of yard A. Out of view in the
foreground are the mainline tracks for the Harlem Division. To the left
out of view is the road overbridge for E 149th Street. Also out of view
to the right of the photo and behind MO tower are the two tracks that
connect the mainline to the Harlem Division and the Port Morris branch,
which is where you would normally expect to see freight cars. So the
photo raises the question of why these freight reefers are sitting on
this busy passenger mainline. The date would be prior to mid sixties,
judging by the manicured garden in the middle of the photo. A similar
view of this location can be seen on page 15 in the book by HF Cavanaugh
titled "New York Central System Gone But Not Forgotten".

Regards,

Robert Bogie
Melbourne, Australia

--- Original Message -----
From: Lancaster James
To: STMFC@... ; milktrains@...
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Need Help with Photo Location


I have obtained a photo of a Chateau Martin wine car in a train of
reefers. The photo is at

http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/cm_in_train_001.jpg
Does anyone recognize the location? The tracks in the foreground
with the third rail probably indicate someplace in or near New York
City.

Jim Lancaster







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Need Help with Photo Location

robertb@smartchat.net.au
 

Jim,

The photo was taken on the NYC Electric Division. The exact location is at the south end of the Mott Haven coach yard. The large building behind the reefers is a US Post Office building and the interlocking tower to the right is MO Tower. The cars are sitting on the mainline from Grand Central Terminal and at that point they are curving to the west to head towards Spuyten Duyvil, before turning to the north to Harmon and then points west. The tracks that can be seen in the foreground are the approach leads to Mott Haven yard and part of yard A. Out of view in the foreground are the mainline tracks for the Harlem Division. To the left out of view is the road overbridge for E 149th Street. Also out of view to the right of the photo and behind MO tower are the two tracks that connect the mainline to the Harlem Division and the Port Morris branch, which is where you would normally expect to see freight cars. So the photo raises the question of why these freight reefers are sitting on this busy passenger mainline. The date would be prior to mid sixties, judging by the manicured garden in the middle of the photo. A similar view of this location can be seen on page 15 in the book by HF Cavanaugh titled "New York Central System Gone But Not Forgotten".

Regards,

Robert Bogie
Melbourne, Australia

--- Original Message -----
From: Lancaster James
To: STMFC@... ; milktrains@...
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Need Help with Photo Location


I have obtained a photo of a Chateau Martin wine car in a train of
reefers. The photo is at
http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/cm_in_train_001.jpg
Does anyone recognize the location? The tracks in the foreground
with the third rail probably indicate someplace in or near New York
City.

Jim Lancaster


Need Help with Photo Location

Jim Lancaster
 

I have obtained a photo of a Chateau Martin wine car in a train of reefers. The photo is at
http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/cm_in_train_001.jpg
Does anyone recognize the location? The tracks in the foreground with the third rail probably indicate someplace in or near New York City.

Jim Lancaster


Re: Western Fruit Express Goes to the ICC

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

gary laakso wrote:
I came across an ICC filing on behalf of Western Fruit Express by Great Northern that was decided by the ICC on May 7, 1934. I have one question about the rebuilding of truss rod refrigerator cars authorized. . .
My question is what did the waterproofing of the floors consist of? I would (no pun intended ) assume the old wood floors being replaced had been waterproofed.
Gary, I don't know WFE in any detail, but it's very possible the floors were merely replaced in kind, and waterproofed in whatever way was current in 1934 (vs. 1920). In other words, the floors were "waterproof" both before and after, but needed replacement and repair. Certainly PFE continued to use wood flooring with various waterproofing treatments, throughout the wood car era.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Hoppers

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 21, 2008, at 6:50 PM, James D Thompson wrote:


The Santa Fe purchased 75 cars of this design from the Richmond
Car Co. in
1929.
Ralston, not Richmond.






The source I was using said Richmond, but I should have suspected
that was wrong. When I went to the Santa Fe freight car folio page
for these cars, I found that David is correct; the builder was
Ralston. Thanks for the correction.


Richard Hendrickson


Re: Hoppers

James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

The Santa Fe purchased 75 cars of this design from the Richmond Car Co. in 1929.
Ralston, not Richmond.

David Thompson


Re: Goodyear Coal Hoppers

acyelnkp
 

Thanks to Jack and Rich for the ORER work. And to Al for reminding
me to look at Kline & Culotta. I usually go there first but since
the subject is a NKP family relation I bypassed that source. Good
photo with a note stating the WLE cars originally had longitudinal
hoppers.

I've posted two blow up views in the Photo section under the "GT&R
Hoppers" folder title. Look at pg 128 of K&C and compare the PRR
H21 to the long view of the three GT&R hoppers. It's tough to see
but based on close scrutiny of my photo of the orginal photo I'll
call the GT&R as having the same 4 self clearing doors. So perhaps
Goodyear contracted with the PRR for the cars. Where would the PRR
be building the H21a by this time (1916 - 1919)? I note in the text
on pg 128 that 1915 is marked as the start date for H21a, which fits
the GTR time line. Nothing like it in N scale though Charlie.

Contact me off list RE the decal project Charlie. I've been trading
cryptic messages with Ed since Naperville. I might be able to save
you some artwork development time.

Steve Holzheimer
GSO, NC

--- In STMFC@..., "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...> wrote:

Steve (the source of this mystery), Jack and Rich-

Fellow N Scalers and AC&Y/ABB fans Ed Hunter and Scott Weiler laid
this one on me from Steve.
I hadn't done the ORER work yet; thanks Jack. Rich, it would be
nice if they did match the PRR H21a...
It is probable that a 100 car order for an industrial firm would
follow an existing design and likely be a tack-on to a batch already
being built.
I agree that somewhere a photo will turn up; that was my goal in
my original posting.
I am working with Ed and Scott to do artwork for AC&Y and ABB
decals and would likely throw these into the mix. I have to figure
out what
Ed and Scott need to do for me when I get the art done.....
Charlie Vlk




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