Date   

Re: Box car running boards...painted or not?

rfederle@...
 

Speculation only in my view but seems it would be more likely NOT to paint the bottoms of running boards but the underside of floor boards does not make sense. Consider that wheels will be slinging water and mud squishing from ties, that area would be high prone to rot. Place a heavy load in the rotted area and .....ooops.

But if the photo shows unpainted then that is hard to refute. I am sure hoebver that when cars were repainted the underframe and wood may have got a decent coating?

Robert Federle
---- Mike Brock <brockm@brevard.net> wrote:

While researching another item, I was somewhat surprised to note in the RP
Cyc, Vol 3, article by Pat Wider that the bottoms of the wood floors of box
cars of our period were not painted. I'm certainly not knowledgeable about
the resistance
to rot of wood used in box cars in the 40's but I can't imagine leaving a
piece of wood unpainted...on the bottom of a box car or the underside of the
eave of a house...either of those being in the state of Florida for a few
months. It is hard to dispute the photo in the article however.

Pat also notes that wood running boards were usually left unpainted. This,
of course, has been commented on before on the STMFC but I think it's worth
a review. Looking at my favorite color photo of box cars of our period from
above...namely Jack Delano's shot of C&NW's Proviso yard as seen on the
cover of Mainline Modeler...May '92...I can see no paintless running board
among the many box cars present. Included are C&NW, M&STL, SR, Monon, UP,
PR, PE and Mil.

Photos of frt cars are often taken from the ground...giving no view of the
running board.

Mike Brock


Re: Reciprocal switching

Gary Roe
 

Guys,

In his book "The Railroad-What It Is, What It Does", John Armstrong says:

"When an inter-terminal switch is called for, things can get complicated. Inter-terminal switching involves complex agreements between the railroads in every city. Each railroad establishes a switching district in which it will arrange to have a car delivered, regardless of whose tracks the siding is located on. Railroads establish reciprocal agreements (we'll switch your cars, if you switch ours) to ensure that cars are delivered.

"The road handling the switch will be paid a switching charge which is determined by each railroad within each switching district."

Then in another chapter:

"Within the switching district where these reciprocal arrangements apply, the originating line-haul road will "absorb" the switching and "per diem reclaim" charges payable to the other lines involved, giving up a chunk of its "division" of the through line-haul rate in exchange for being able to compete for the traffic from shippers not located on its tracks."

gary roe
quincy, illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 07 December, 2008 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Reciprocal switching


Tim O'Connor wrote:
> Tony, as usual you're confusing your sarcasm with insight. My point
> was that shippers cannot invent routes -- they can
> only choose routes available on the tariff. If you dispute that, then
> I've got a bridge or two for you.

I understand your point, and intended no dispute of it; but you
seem to believe it was hard to find routings in the tariffs. As for me,
i find it hard to believe that a shipper served by CNW and RI could not
get to any major and probably about any minor destination via either
road. You can keep your bridges.

> How is railroad A's access to railroad B customers reciprocal?

Because railroad B got access to railroad A's customers too.
Doesn't seem a subtle point to me.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Box car running boards...painted or not?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

While researching another item, I was somewhat surprised to note in the RP
Cyc, Vol 3, article by Pat Wider that the bottoms of the wood floors of box
cars of our period were not painted. I'm certainly not knowledgeable about the resistance
to rot of wood used in box cars in the 40's but I can't imagine leaving a
piece of wood unpainted...on the bottom of a box car or the underside of the
eave of a house...either of those being in the state of Florida for a few
months. It is hard to dispute the photo in the article however.

Pat also notes that wood running boards were usually left unpainted. This,
of course, has been commented on before on the STMFC but I think it's worth
a review. Looking at my favorite color photo of box cars of our period from
above...namely Jack Delano's shot of C&NW's Proviso yard as seen on the
cover of Mainline Modeler...May '92...I can see no paintless running board
among the many box cars present. Included are C&NW, M&STL, SR, Monon, UP,
PR, PE and Mil.

Photos of frt cars are often taken from the ground...giving no view of the running board.

Mike Brock


Re: WWII 50 foot Steel Box

Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

Dave originally said that he was not very resin literate. Speedwitch's N&W
boxcar was originally marketed by Pocahontas Models. The one-piece body and
underframe are very nice. Almost all the details are etched stainless steel
and I'd hesitate to recommend it someone without a fair amount of 'beyond
plastic' experience.
I don't have the C of G door and a half boxcar kit but since it's a Ted
Culotta design, I'm sure it's much easier.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Smith
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] WWII 50 foot Steel Box

Dale,
Sorry, forgot this one in the first reply ((just woke up....)
Speedwitch N&W B-4/ B-4A 50' Boxcars.
http://www.speedwitch.com/Models/k115.htm
The Speedwitch kits are one piece bodies, with good instructions.
Ron Smith
Carman UPRR

----- Original Message -----
From: devansprr
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:01 AM
Subject: [STMFC] WWII 50 foot Steel Box


I'm reviewing my WWII era freight car fleet analysis, and find that
there is a significant gap in 50 foot steel box cars in HO for that
period.

The '43 ORER shows around 31,000 steel 50 footers, and around 20,000
wood 50 footers.

For steel cars, it seems like the only non-resin cars available in HO
are the PRR cars from Bowser.

Am I missing something? Is this because not many 50 footers to that
point were of a common design, hence few models? Is it because
immediate post war 50 footers quickly became the dominant fleet, which
is why everyone is making post-war 50 footers?

And not being very resin literate, any resin recommendations for a
WWII 50 foot steel box fleet (probably need just a few - recognizing
they were only 3.5% of the national boxcar fleet?)

Thanks,
Dave Evans






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Re: The Atlas model of Cudahy meat reefers

Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

You must still pay attention to the period you model. The MDT 8 hinge
cars were all rebuilt by about 1926; if your modeling period is
1911-1926 you're all set; the Rutland versions of this car ran into
the fifties which was the motivation for this kit.

Roger Hinman

On Dec 7, 2008, at 12:05 PM, S hed wrote:


As a FYI to the group, Bethlehem Car Works offers a MDT 40' Reefer
with the 8-hinges for sale. Here is the web link:

http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com/Products/Rutland_Car_Shops/Rolling_Stock/RCS-MDT.html

It is supposed to be a car based on the MDT Co's blue prints and
from the 1919 Car Builder's Encyclopedia. And it is supposed to
represent the NYC series 155000 to 156999 and MC series 16000 to
16249 built between 1913 and 1917.

The good news about the kit is that it is a one-piece body but I am
not sure if it is a resin kit or not. I model 1926 and the kit in
the picture is car #145831 which fits in with the 145000 to 145999
car series (978 cars in 1926). And comparing the car series
dimensions with the other MDT car series, it is an exact match for
the 155000 to 155999 series (971 cars in 1926) but a close match to
the 144000 to 144513 series (509 cars in 1926) and the 156000 to
156299 series (291 cars in 1926). Whether any of these car series
have the 8 hinges or not needs to be confirmed by photographs. Or
even if the kit is an accurate NYC/MC/MDT car.

I have both the Billboard Reefer book (thanks to Mr Hendrickson and
Mr Kaminski for making an outstanding book) and the Reefer Car Color
Guide (thanks to Mr Green). In the Billboard Reefer book, on pages
171 to 173, are examples of this car that was operated by Dairy
Shippers Dispatch, which was a small car leasing company out of
Chicago. This car kit appears to match these cars down to the end
strapping but the DSDX cars are 36' and 37'.

If the kit matches the prototype than I think I will need to order
one.

- Steve Hedlund
Everett, WA

To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: rhendrickson@opendoor.comDate: Sat, 6
Dec 2008 15:56:00 -0800Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: The Atlas model of
Cudahy meat reefers

On Dec 6, 2008, at 5:39 AM, Donald B. Valentine wrote:> Cudahy was
also represented in the Boston area at least up> through WW II
AFAIK. With that in mind I've had interest in the Atlas> 36 ft. meat
reefer. It is my understanding, and I'm looking for> correction on
this, that the Atlas car was modeled after a Cudahy> prototype,
particularly with the odd use of only four hinges for the> two
halves of each door. Is this or is it not correct? Also, are> photos
available for such cars in other than the "billboard" paint> offered
by Atlas and, if so, are decals available. If what I'm> questioning
is correct it is a shame that Atlas has offered that> model painted
for just about every packing company that ever existed> but,
apparently, few that any of us can use and be prototypically>
correct as it is also my understanding that Cudahy was about the
only> packer that used these oddball prototyes. I'd just like to
have a> couple in a! later Cudahy paint that is prototyically
correct....>I'm always surprised (though perhaps I shouldn't be, by
now) when a lot of speculation and mis-information is posted on a
subject which is well documented. The responses to Don's query are a
notable example. 36" meat reefers with four hinges on each door were
not at all exclusive to Cudahy; large numbers of them were built in
the 1920s (as well as 40' cars with the same door hinge arrangement)
by the Pressed Steel Car Co.'s Hegewich, IL plant. North American
Despatch owned many such cars and applied a variety of billboard P/L
schemes to them, and smaller numbers were owned by other leasing
companies (e.g., MDT). There are many photos of these cars in the
Billboard Refrigerator Car book by myself and Ed Kaminski that was
recently published by Signature Press. For the Cudahy cars, see pp.
39-40 and 180; for the NADX cars, see pp. 50-59. Other examples are
scattered elsewhere in the book. That's not to say that so! me of
the Atlas models aren't bogus - a bunch of them are - but some are
correct (except for the model's unfortunate shortcomings) and the
book shows many other examples that Atlas hasn't yet produced, but
could. This is yet another instance where what you want to know may
not be on the internet but is readily available elsewhere. The book
has been widely advertised and reviewed, and if you don't want to
buy it, then any library should be able to get a copy via
interlibrary loan. The day when every piece of information known to
man can be googled may be coming, but it ain't here yet.Richard
Hendrickson

__________________________________________________________
You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/





Re: Carbody Window Screens

Schuyler Larrabee
 

In today's modeling world, there may be better options, but . . . I have made screens and grills
using silk screen screening (SSS). SSS is available in a large variety of mesh sizes and also a
variety of thread sizes. I cannot remember where I got this stuff, and a half yard of it will
supply you forever. I made the grills and screens by making a frame of styrene, fastening (tape)
down a small piece of the screen (much larger than the grill(s) but small compared to the overall
supply, maybe 4" x 4". I taped it to a hard-face cardboard, like some Strathmore or something. I
think I used the inside of a Twinings teabag box. then put the styrene frame down on the screen
with some weight on it, not a lot, just enough to press it down flat, and then flooded the surface
with liquid cement, and then left it alone for a day. This softens the face of the frame and the
weight pushes it down into the screen and tight to the face of the cardboard. After it was dry, I
lifted it from the cardboard (the first time I did this was not hard faced board and that was a
challenge). I then guillotined the screen from the edges of the frame.

Like I said, there may be better techniques now . . .

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chapbob@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:55 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Carbody Window Screens

Does anyone have a favorite product to recommend for HO scale window screens
as found on cabooses, camp cars, etc.?

What I'm looking for is a fine mesh, but not so fine as to totally hide the
window behind it.

Thanks!
Bob Chapman


Re: Carbody Window Screens

Ed Walters
 

Bruce Smith suggested screen printing screen to me (it is available
in some very fine meshes).

Ed
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, chapbob@... wrote:

Does anyone have a favorite product to recommend for HO scale
window screens
as found on cabooses, camp cars, etc.?

What I'm looking for is a fine mesh, but not so fine as to totally
hide the
window behind it.

Thanks!
Bob Chapman
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email,
and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
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dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Rutland Car Shops MDT reefer kit

Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

Steve, a little Googling took me to the original Rutland Car Shops site
http://users.rcn.com/jimdu4/carshops.htm which told me that yes it is a
resin kit. And that it is (or was in 2000) manufactured by Sylvan Scale
Models. Sylvan http://www.isp.on.ca/sylvan/ makes a quality product so the
Bethlehem/Rutland product should be OK. I was tempted to order one myself
but realized they were undoubtedly gone by my late '50s timeframe and
although it's certainly possible, it's unlikely they made to the Northwest.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S
hed
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:06 AM
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: The Atlas model of Cudahy meat reefers


As a FYI to the group, Bethlehem Car Works offers a MDT 40' Reefer with the
8-hinges for sale. Here is the web link:

http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com/Products/Rutland_Car_Shops/Rolling_Stock/RC
S-MDT.html

It is supposed to be a car based on the MDT Co's blue prints and from the
1919 Car Builder's Encyclopedia. And it is supposed to represent the NYC
series 155000 to 156999 and MC series 16000 to 16249 built between 1913 and
1917.


Re: Car Types for Team Tracks

Frank Greene
 

gary laakso wrote:
I have been going through the January 1, 1961 Great Northern Railway Industrial Guide for points served by it and other railroads. The scope of team track usage amazes me since it covers from coffins to Edsels to Hamms beer to paving machinery and on and on. Here are the uses that i am not sure what type of freight car would be used (no, i am not listing pipe, threaded or not):

8- .../tobacco; refrigerators?

Box cars, both for leaf tobacco (usually shipped in hogsheads) and the finished product (e.g., cigarettes, snuff, etc.).

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: Reciprocal switching

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tony, as usual you're confusing your sarcasm with insight. My point was that shippers cannot invent routes -- they can
only choose routes available on the tariff. If you dispute that, then I've got a bridge or two for you.
I understand your point, and intended no dispute of it; but you seem to believe it was hard to find routings in the tariffs. As for me, i find it hard to believe that a shipper served by CNW and RI could not get to any major and probably about any minor destination via either road. You can keep your bridges.

How is railroad A's access to railroad B customers reciprocal?
Because railroad B got access to railroad A's customers too. Doesn't seem a subtle point to me.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Reciprocal switching

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

I know that some denizens of this group are predisposed to consider anything found on the internet as complete bullsh_t, but I think this has some validity:

http://www.uprr.com/customers/shortline/attachments/prior_uprsc.pdf

See definition on page 5.

KL


Re: Reciprocal switching

Tim O'Connor
 

I think you're assigning the "reciprocal" word to the wrong part
of the story. The fees aren't reciprocal, the switching privilege is.
And if you think the shipper couldn�t find a tariffed route via major
railroads, I've got a bridge you might like to own.
Tony Thompson
Tony, as usual you're confusing your sarcasm with insight.
My point was that shippers cannot invent routes -- they can
only choose routes available on the tariff. If you dispute
that, then I've got a bridge or two for you.

How is railroad A's access to railroad B customers reciprocal?
I'm not at all confused about the meaning of the word. If there
is a reciprocal part to this story, no one has presented it yet.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Reciprocal switching

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Perhaps the following is another case of reciprocal switching that is
a bit different from that note in the original inquiry.

In Memphis, TN, there is an industrial district called President's
Island which is a mass of land that was left behind by a large meander
of the Mississippi River. This district was switched in turn by the
railroads that served the city. That is, the SLSF would switch the
district for four months, then the Southern for four months, then the
IC for four months. Then the cycle would replay itself. A shipper
could choose the routes available in the tariff book that they desired
without regard of the switching railroad. The railroad switching the
island at any given time acted more like a terminal switching railroad
during its time on the island. I do not have any idea of how the
railroads split the switching fees, if there were any.

Not sure if this is any help at all in this discussion, but that is
what I would name reciprocal switching.

Cheers,
-- Bill Keene

On Dec 7, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


You got it, Gene.

What is meant by the term "reciprocal switching?"

I got the term off a list of industries in towns along the CGW. The
list apparently includes industries located along any of the other
RRs
in the town. Some are marked reciprocal switching - yes and some
reciprocal switching - no.

Does it mean that RR A could spot a car on the industry's siding
located along RR B?

Gene Green


Re: Reciprocal switching

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
So where is the reciprocity?
I think you're assigning the "reciprocal" word to the wrong part
of the story. The fees aren't reciprocal, the switching privilege is.
And if you think the shipper couldn’t find a tariffed route via major
railroads, I've got a bridge you might like to own.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: C&BT Santa Fe reefer question

Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

According to a chart I have from Cc7BT, it's an Rr-35. The C1 just indicates
which C&BT body it is.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:41 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] C&BT Santa Fe reefer question

I've got C&BT Shops kit R700, with 6' plug door,
4/4 ends, Preco fan plate on the side -- C&BT calls
this version "C1" whatever that means. The kits were
produced with the help of the SFMO and included is a
cross reference but -- I can't figure out exactly
which car is represented by this kit.

Looking through the Santa Fe reefers book, this body
looks very similar to some Rr-34, Rr-35 and Rr-40 cars
but none of the photos shows the exact combination of
ends and fan plate and door gussets.

So... any one know exactly what this kit represents?

Tim O'Connor


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Reciprocal switching

Tim O'Connor
 

First of all, the railroad isn't the instigator, it's the
shipper, which can choose either road which serves it. Second, I don't
see why you think this is a "short haul," because the load will
probably go onward on whichever road is the originating road--at least
I think that would be the shipper's logic.
Tony Thompson
Yes, but as you know, the shipper can only choose a route that
is part of the published tariff. So it still begs the question
of why the owner of the track would accept a simple fee instead
of a generous percentage of the entire bill. The incentive for
the track owner is to move the car to the furthest point that
it can before turning it over to someone else. That is typically
how it would work on a tariff, and anything else is a "short haul".
So where is the reciprocity?

Tim O'Connor


The SHAKE N TAKE clinic is full.

Greg Martin
 

Guys,
The list is now complete for the online pre registration for the Shake N
Take clinic. We'll have a just few slots left for those registering at the door
with no Internet access. I have also added for slots for what Al Brown
suggests as "Instruction Only" which will give you access to a handout for the
modeling of the kit that I provide for the folks listed below. So let me get this
out to you all and know that if you would like to add yourself under
"Instruction Only".
Also let me correct the time for the clinic: Friday January 09, 2009 at 3:30
PM in the Seahorse & Starfish Roo.

Here's the current list"

1.) Armend Premo
2.) Dr. Denny Anspach
3.) Tony Thompson
4.) Mont Switzer
5.) Schuyler Larrabee
6.) John Greedy
7.) William Bell
8.) Jeff Alley
9.) Mike Brock (if we can get him to stand still for 5 minutes)
10.) Gary Laakso
11.) Roger Hinman
13.) Richard Hendrickson
14.) Paul Lyons
15.) Bruce Smith
16.) Brian Carlson
17.) Jerry Glow
18.) John G Wheeler
19.) Dick Berry
20.) Lindsay Raley
21.) John Golden
22.) Owne Thorne
23.) Chirs Zygmont
24.) Ted Cullota
25.) Bill MCCoy
26.) Paul Bizier
27.) John Burroughs

INSTRUCTION ONLY:
1.) Al Brown
2.)
3.)
4.)
Thanks,
Greg Martin


.



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Re: Reciprocal switching

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
. . . Why would a railroad short haul itself by giving another railroad the right to bill cars to its customers in return for a fee, unless that railroad in turn got the same deal for the customers of the other railroad?
First of all, the railroad isn't the instigator, it's the shipper, which can choose either road which serves it. Second, I don't see why you think this is a "short haul," because the load will probably go onward on whichever road is the originating road--at least I think that would be the shipper's logic.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Car Types for Team Tracks

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

gary laakso wrote:
The scope of team track usage amazes me . . .
6- vitamins; refrigerator cars?
8- candy/tobacco; refrigerators?
9- potato chips (its listed at multiple locations) refrigerators?
In the early 1950s, "refrigerator" would be a good guess, but by 1960 (your document is 1961) these would have been insulated box cars. The only reason to use reefers earlier was for the insulation--they would not have been iced. And it's very possible that soft drinks (your no. 5) would fall into the same category.
For "steel products," as these could include castings, etc. I think you should include box cars.
"Fireworks" of course were shipped in the Lionel exploding box car. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Reciprocal switching

Tim O'Connor
 

Dennis

I guess usage has changed then. It sounds to me like you
are describing what is now called "haulage rights" (versus
trackage rights). The word "reciprocal" implies that each
side gets something in return for giving something. Why
would a railroad short haul itself by giving another railroad
the right to bill cars to its customers in return for a fee,
unless that railroad in turn got the same deal for the
customers of the other railroad? A different solution is a
joint switching district. Many people don't realize that
Conrail still exists, in the form of an NS-CSXT jointly owned
operation.

Tim O'Connor

Does it mean that RR A could spot a car on the industry's siding
located along RR B?

Gene Green
No. As I understand it, either railroad could be the originating or
terminating road, the same as if the industry was physically on their
own rails. The road that actually switched the industry received a
flat fee for the service.

From a modeler's standpoint, it does very little to the visible
operations; it basically involved shuffling the paperwork in a
different fashion. The only noticeable difference is that if an
industry was on the MILW but open to the C&NW via reciprocal
switching, if the car was billed as originating on the C&NW, that road
was expected to supply the Mty.
Dennis

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