Date   

Wartime flat car load

Earl Tuson
 

FWIW...

While perusing a B&M Bulletin, I saw a photo which included what I felt were
two interesting war time flat car loads, and a potential accompanying car. As
such items appear to be "popular," I figured I would share it here. The place
is Fitchburg, MA, the date- 5/30/43, the train and loco- MP-8
(Mechanicville-Portland) w/ 4-8-2 4116. The two flats of interest, separated
by a double door box car (looks to be 50',) each have 4 single-axle, flat bed
trailers stacked 2 and 2, with pairs of beds mated, all wheels towards one end.
<IF> you could fit 8 cabs into a 50' XA, that could explain the cut. There
are two hoppers on the head pin (one being a B&M quad,) then the truck loads,
and everything else visible in the train is oil.

Earl Tuson

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Re: Wine

Richard Hendrickson
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brock [mailto:brockm@brevard.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 7:06 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] UP H-70-1..it was Richard's fault


As I was beginning analysis of the wine carrying cars in the UP
Frt Conductor's Book, [snip]
Mike, are you seeing blocks of wine loads in your book too? I found one in
mine too, same train, eastbound, all these cars close together or adjacent:

road carnr type contents
WFEX 65729 REEFER Wine
PHPX 6356 Wine
GATX 33834 TANK Wine
GATX 991 TANK Wine
NADX 1583 Wine
SFRD 36427 REEFER Wine
PFE 45866 REEFER Wine
GATX 33436 TANK Wine
GATX 66187 TANK Wine
GATX 33818 TANK Wine
PFE 30267 REEFER Wine
The NADX car was a 40' refrigerated box car (ex-reefer with the ice bunkers
removed). The PHPX car is a puzzlement. I can't found those reporting
marks (or anything close) in any of my ORERs. Assuming the book was
handwritten, is there any chance that the entry might actually represent
different initials?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: USQX?

Richard Hendrickson
 

Mike queried:

I notice the reporting marks USQX in the Frt Conductor Book. This
reporting mark appears to not exist in my '53 ORER. Does anyone know what
this was in '49?

Mike Brock

Mike,
I believe that these were cars used to transport the Roswell
wreckage and the dead aliens by the US Gov't. That's why they don't show
up. :)

Warren Dickinson
Somehow, I missed Mike's original post. It's obviously pointless to
comment on Warren's (facetious, I hope) explanation, but the fact is that
the USQX reporting marks were those of of the United States Army
Quartermaster Corps, which had a sizeable tank car fleet during and after
WW II. By 1950 those cars, along with cars bearing USAX and USOX reporting
marks, were consolidated under the management of the Department of the
Army, Office of the Chief of Transportation, Railway Transport Service
Division. By 1953, all such cars had USAX reporting marks assigned. And
by the mid-1950s, when all of the services were consolidated under the
Department of Defense, USAX cars, along with the navy's USNX cars, were
combined under DODX reporting marks. Trust the military to keep
rearranging the deck chairs....

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: UP H-70-1..it was Richard's fault

Richard Hendrickson
 

....For those receiving this message twice, I apologize, but it's
Richard's fault.
Say, what? Perhaps if I simply ignore this outrageous canard, it will go
away.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Wine

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brock [mailto:brockm@brevard.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 7:06 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] UP H-70-1..it was Richard's fault


As I was beginning analysis of the wine carrying cars in the UP
Frt Conductor's Book, [snip]
Mike, are you seeing blocks of wine loads in your book too? I found one in
mine too, same train, eastbound, all these cars close together or adjacent:

road carnr type contents
WFEX 65729 REEFER Wine
PHPX 6356 Wine
GATX 33834 TANK Wine
GATX 991 TANK Wine
NADX 1583 Wine
SFRD 36427 REEFER Wine
PFE 45866 REEFER Wine
GATX 33436 TANK Wine
GATX 66187 TANK Wine
GATX 33818 TANK Wine
PFE 30267 REEFER Wine

Dave Nelson


Coal on the Suncook Valley, was UP Frt Con Book Data

Earl Tuson
 

From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
There were very few
places in the west where cross-hopper cars could be conveniently unloaded.
I don't know much about the west, or hell, even the east, besides the Suncook
Valley! I do know, however, that two out of the three post-war customers
receiving coal on that very eastern line were not equipped with elevated
trestles, rather they used portable bucket conveyors to move the coal from
(mostly) hoppers.

Coal shipped on the SV, 11/1/52-12/20/52

Fred Saltmarsh, Suncook, elevated trestle:
PRR 695122, Bit from Altoona, PA (PRR), Gla
B&O 331363, Bit from Allingdale, WV (B&O), ? twin
L&NE 14087, Anth from Coxton (?), PA, '35 offset twin

Merrimack Valley Farmers Exchange, Epsom, bucket conveyor:
C&I 5110, Bit from Colver, PA (C&I), '35 offset twin
LV 18356, Anth from Coxton (?), PA, pre-USRA 8 panel twin
PRR 209917, Anth from Coxton (?), PA, Glca
LV 17905, Anth from Coverts, PA (PRR), pre-USRA 8 panel twin (got photos!)
D&H 3855, Anth from Coxton (?), PA, USRA twin

Pittsfield coal dealer that I'm unsure of name of, bucket conveyor:
PRR 281641, Anth from Scranton, PA, Gr (only coal carrying gon)
DL&W 82125, Anth from Kingston, PA (DL&W), 10 panel twin

There was also one other unidentified MT hopper returned to interchange from an
unidentified customer.

Data from collection of Dwight Smith.

Earl Tuson


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Re: UP H-70-1..

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

All this speculation about WHY eastern hoppers could be
found roaming UP rails on Sherman Hill is somewhat silly,
in the absence of actual shipper-consignee (i.e. waybill)
information. Equally likely explanations are a temporary
car shortage, a long term car shortage, miscellaneous coal
strikes, badly misrouted cars, or just the prosaic use of
another's railroad's equipment to conduct one's business.
Indeed, single carload lots of coal travelling 1500 miles
or more would be of great interest -- where is the proof?
You can't accurately infer that an eastern car loaded with
coal came from east of the Ohio (way east, in the case of
Lehigh Valley!) without some other documentation. Car rent
(per diem) was historically very cheap, and many railroads
were net car 'lenders' against their better wishes. (Great
Northern was one, and complained noisily about it in their
annual reports.) Some time ago on FCL we discussed aerial
photos of a sand quarry in western South Dakota in which we
could easily identify PRR, NYC, and other eastern hoppers
being loaded with sand - for use within a couple hundred
mile radius. Those cars could have been shanghied and not
returned to their owners for months, or maybe longer. Who
knows?

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


UP H-70-1..it was Richard's fault

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

As I was beginning analysis of the wine carrying cars in the UP Frt Conductor's Book, I decided that I would sample some of the contents of said cars. This, unfortunately, led me to send a message regarding the UP H-70-1 hopper.....what has this to do with wine carrying cars? I have no idea.........to the Steam Loco Group instead of the STMFC. I now include that message below. For those receiving this message twice, I apologize, but it's Richard's fault. Having witnessed first hand the effects of Richard's wine tasting clinic at the San Jose Convention......wife Georgia was grinning for hours afterward...as was Richard, the only one smiling during a Santa Fe modeler's meeting afterwards......I have come to appreciate such activities.

Tim O'Connor speculates that when the UP acquired its H-70-1 hoppers that the population of off road...including eastern owned hoppers....might have vanished to be replaced by the UP hoppers. I actually doubt this happened. All but one of my examples came from the east and were traveling to, apparently, Ogden. Some of these cars...the Lehigh Valley, for example.......were probably carrying coal from some distance and we might expect it to have unique properties. This has been proposed many times. Add to this the fact that we do have photo evidence of eastern hoppers long after 1949 on UP tracks in Wyoming. The book The History of the Union Pacific in Cheyenne shows a Lackawanna hopper headed east...apparently empty....on Sherman Hill in 1955. The Iron Horse and I shows a MP hopper in Laramie in 1951. There is a shot of a Virginian hopper headed west in Kansas. I think we'll find that most of those H-70-1s were used for hauling Wyoming coal from Hanna and Rock Springs to various destinations rather than to haul some unique coal from the east. Of course, there was a coal strike in the Wyoming mines at sometime in the early 50s which might account for the presence of the MP hopper seen in the photo.

Mike Brock


Re: USQX?

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

US Quartermaster


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: USQX?

ibs4421@...
 

Mike queried:

I notice the reporting marks USQX in the Frt Conductor Book. This reporting mark appears to not exist in my '53 ORER. Does anyone know what this was in '49?

Mike Brock

Mike,
I believe that these were cars used to transport the Roswell wreckage and the dead aliens by the US Gov't. That's why they don't show up. :)

Warren Dickinson


USQX?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

I notice the reporting marks USQX in the Frt Conductor Book. This reporting mark appears to not exist in my '53 ORER. Does anyone know what this was in '49?

Mike Brock


A cargo of rail

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

From the UP Frt Conductor's Book...
One train had 15 cars carrying rail westbound between Laramie and Rawlins. These cars were:
1.UP 55052 Flat
2.SP 48612 Flat
3.CNW 43651 Flat
4. SP 151256 GS GON
5. UP 56771 Flat
6. MOP 61207 Hopper
7. UP 55765 Flat
8. UP56918 Flat
9. SP 43511 Flat
10.CNW 45237 Flat
11. UP 55939 Flat
12. UP 56799 Flat
13. SP 56423 GS Gon
14.SP 90380 GS Gon
15.SP 56461 GS Gon

The MP car is a bit curious.Tie plates?

Mike Brock


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Aley - GCD PE [mailto:jaley@pcocd2.intel.com]
I'm the wrong kind of techie (I'm a hardware guy), but I'll try to fake
it. What about

select mfr, part_number
from HO_kit
where HO_kit.prototype=orer!roster.class_id
and orer!roster.class_id='X31F'
You got the comprehensive list of accurate models & the mapping from that
list over to railroad car series numbers? I'll load it if you do. 8-)

[or something like that] ??
Ahh, the specificity of a true hardware guy! Causes one to reflect on the
meaning of life.

Dave Nelson


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Mar 1, 10:58pm, Dave & Libby Nelson wrote:
Subject: RE: [STMFC] UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look
So far I'd transcribed about 500 cars and linked them
to my ORER database (as I've done with the SRR books I have). Not
enough of
a sample to say much, but when that question on PRR turtleback's popped
up I
had the answer about 15 seconds after the software loaded.

For the techies:

select train.Train_id, Call_Dt, Road, Car_nbr
from consist, train
where consist.train_id=train.train_id
and consist.cb_series = orer!roster.cb_series
and orer!roster.class_id='X31F';
I'm the wrong kind of techie (I'm a hardware guy), but I'll try to fake
it. What about

select mfr, part_number
from HO_kit
where HO_kit.prototype=orer!roster.class_id
and orer!roster.class_id='X31F'

[or something like that] ??

Regards,

-Jeff


--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Prototype Info

Richard Hendrickson
 

If any of you happen to come up with some good prototype info on the
L&N, NC&StL, or TC please give me a shout, either here or off-line. I am
always looking for good resources to help me in my quest of modeling these
RR's prototypically....
Warren, I've got a fair number of photos of freight cars from those RRs,
some of them prints of which copies are no longer available, which I could
send in the form of JPEGs. Tell me exactly what era you're modeling (my
photo collection is largely confined to cars built before ca. 1948, though
many of the photos show later paint/lettering). Also, someone you should
be talking to is Bill Welch in Virginia, who is also very seriously
interested in modeling those RRs in the 1950s. If you're not already in
touch with him, I can give you his e-mail address.

I just got Vollrath's list of photo's (steam locos) for the L&N and
NC&StL, and in the list he mentions that he has an extensive freight car
photo list, 40+ pages. Have any of you ordered freight car photo's from
him before. TIA.
Vollrath's freight car holdings are hit-and-miss, but there are fine things
there, his darkroom work is good, and his prices are reasonable. Certainly
worth checking out.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Arch Bars Again

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 3/2/01 9:54:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
guycwilber@aol.com writes:

<< also the revision of the present note to Rule 3;
excepting industrial or other cars not intended for interchange service from
the provision of the rule in their initial movement from manufacturer to
destination of seaboard. >>

The above should read:
... from manufacturer to destination or seaport.


Arch Bars Again

Guy Wilber
 

All,

The date of the banning of Arch Bar trucks in interchange has probably been
beat to death, but...

Many railroads, private car owners, and the American Petroleum Institute
lobbied hard during the late 1930s for several extensions of the date to ban
arch bars. The "final" date was extended several times (on a nearly yearly
basis) with a final mandated date of July 1, 1940. This "final" date was
voted on and overwhemingly approved by the member roads of the AAR; the
result was announced in Circular No. D. V. - 975, dated March 20, 1940.

Within this final agreement was the approval of the use of cars for loading
or unloading (equipped with arch bars) within the same switching district in
which the switching occured; also the revision of the present note to Rule 3;
excepting industrial or other cars not intended for interchange service from
the provision of the rule in their initial movement from manufacturer to
destination of seaboard.

Within my data I find no conclusive mention of a further extension to July,
1941. There is no member road vote listed (via letter ballot) within the
1941 AAR Mechanical Division "Proceedings". Was this extension granted by
the AARs' Board of Directors (as was the case in several of the previous
extensions)? If July, 1941 was indeed the final date, can anyone here
provide conclusive information via AAR interchange rules book and/or other
data?

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brock [mailto:brockm@brevard.net]
I have not dertimined destination completely. LA-4 and SP-1 are
mentioned frequently, as are numbers 2,3,5, & 6. The ore string
of cars is going to Van 6. These destinations are not stations
since 3 would be that for Omaha and the referenced train is westbound.

Mike, those numbers are the block id's for use at Odgen. Somewhere around
here I've got an issue of the Streamliner that included a 1940 timetable
that had those numbers. I'll see if I can find them.

I've got 2 books from the same conductor as Mike mentions here and Tim
Gilbert has another. So far I'd transcribed about 500 cars and linked them
to my ORER database (as I've done with the SRR books I have). Not enough of
a sample to say much, but when that question on PRR turtleback's popped up I
had the answer about 15 seconds after the software loaded.

For the techies:

select train.Train_id, Call_Dt, Road, Car_nbr
from consist, train
where consist.train_id=train.train_id
and consist.cb_series = orer!roster.cb_series
and orer!roster.class_id='X31F';

8-)

Dave Nelson


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Richard Hendrickson
 

Mike Brock wrote:

One thing that should be considered...and perhaps Richard, Tony, and others
have...is that a hopper car was built to be unloaded through the rails...or
turned completely over as at Norfolk and other ports. If you had a site that
required a load of some kind of coal every week or two you likely would not
have the facility to unload it through...and under the rails...so you might
unload it with a crane...or even some poor sods with shovels.... of some
kind. This might be more adapted to a gon than a deeper hopper. Just
speculating of course.
Earth to Mike. Tony and I (and others) have been making this point for
years. Aside from the fact that coal wasn't widely used as a fuel in the
western U.S., hardly any users had elevated unloading facilities; that's
why the western RRs largely favored GS gondolas rather than hopper cars for
bulk mineral loads. In the east as well as the west, coal was often
shipped in gondolas to recipients who had no elevated trestles (that's why
N&W, Clinchfield, C&O, L&N, etc. had all those gondolas) and was unloaded
with clamshell buckets (which were very hard on the cars, of course) or,
yes, with hand shovels powered by "Norwegian steam." There were very few
places in the west where cross-hopper cars could be conveniently unloaded.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

I wrote:

I have not dertimined destination completely. LA-4 and SP-1 are
mentioned frequently, as are numbers 2,3,5, & 6. The ore string of cars is
going to Van 6. These destinations are not stations since 3 would be that
for Omaha and the referenced train is westbound.
And Jeff Aley responds with:

Espee train numbers???
Well, not LA-4...since the UP went to LA on its own...well sort of. Sounds
like SP-1 is/was. Don't know what the other numbers stood for.

I wrote:

Here's a list of coal or coke carrying cars included in trains I've
checked...about half of the 35 listed: Loads are coal unless indicated.

1. Pennsy gon G-29 359601
2. B&O gon 261628
3. MP gon 72363
4. Lackawanna gon 66057
5. NYC gon 631040 coke
6. Frisco hopper 86496 coke
7. MKT gon 41492
8. N&W gon 91097
9. N&W gon 100350 pitch
10. Frisco gon 84100
11. MP gon 66850
12. MP hopper 59413
13. L&N hopper 65073
14. Lehigh Valley hopper 24613
15. Q ballast hopper 221662
16. Q comp gon 166948
17. NYC gon 711577
18. Q ballast hopper 221725
19. KCS hopper 29107
Jeff answers with:

Twelve of the 19 cars were gons, including some from eastern
roads. I find this surprising even though I've been known to chant the
Henrickson mantra of the West: "more gons than hoppers...more gons than
hoppers".
I respond:
One thing that should be considered...and perhaps Richard, Tony, and others
have...is that a hopper car was built to be unloaded through the rails...or
turned completely over as at Norfolk and other ports. If you had a site that
required a load of some kind of coal every week or two you likely would not
have the facility to unload it through...and under the rails...so you might
unload it with a crane...or even some poor sods with shovels.... of some
kind. This might be more adapted to a gon than a deeper hopper. Just
speculating of course.

Any helium cars? You've got 7 hoppers, and we all know that
Richard claims there were more helium cars than hoppers (in the West, at
least).
I'll be checking on helium loads soon....after checking on wine loads and,
perhaps, sampling some myself...California varieties of course...or those
from Oregon if I could find them down here.

Mike Brock

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