Date   

Re: Automobile Car Shortage

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Meanwhile the freightcar business went to H&B. Looking in the 1919 CBC at what H&B was building for other railroads, I/m not entierly sure that in 1917 H&B was equipped to build a steel framed car...
Dennis, if you look at the builder photos from H&B in Ed Kaminski's book on Pullman-Standard, you'll see a whole bunch of steel-framed cars built by H&B well before 1917.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Fw: SPREAD THE WORD!

joel norman <mec-bml@...>
 

--- On Sun, 1/18/09, George Melvin <geomel1@...> wrote:

From: George Melvin <geomel1@...>
Subject: SPREAD THE WORD!
To: "Joel Norman" <mec-bml@...>
Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 6:23 PM

Joel,
I know this won't help you personally being in the Midwest but wonder if
you
could pass the word on some Yahoo lists you may participate in...thanks!
George

SPREAD THE WORD --- MELVIN PHOTOS --- BIG SALE AT SPRINGFIELD SHOW JAN
23-25!!!
BUY ONE - GET ONE FREE on all photos in stock.
We need to make room for many new photos and this is your chance to buy some
that
may have passed up before! We'll be in Section 56 of the Better Living
Center.
We will also be selling George's newest book, "Trackside New Hampshire
with
Ben English, Jr.,
at the discounted price of $46.00 plus tax!!!
Check out our expanded website at: www.melvinphotos.com
See you there! George & Kathy Melvin


Re: NSP coal hoppers

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jan 18, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Thomas Baker wrote:

During the 1950s did the Northern States Power Company have company
coal hoppers? If so, of what type? The NSP was big in the Twin Cities,
and as a boy I saw coal hoppers in near its plants but never any
company-owned cars.
Tom,
The Northern States Power Co. bought 4 hopper cars from AC&F delivered
10-48 under lot 3307. The builder's photo was NSP 4517. The 70-ton
triple hopper cars were 38'-6" inside length, and all-welded
construction with offset sides and outside posts. The St. Louis
Mercantile Library has a bill of materials and photos of the car. I
didn't document the car number series of the 4 cars that were built or
any of the details in the bill of materials. I don't find the cars
listed in the ORER so presumably they were not interchanged.

The NSP cars used most of the same set of AC&F drawings and were
essentially identical to C&O, M-K-T, and Missouri Portland Cement
hopper cars built under lots 3266 (C&O 91000-93999), 3282 (M-K-T
40101-40300), 3294 (MOCX 314-363), and 3310 (C&O 94000-94999), 3379
(C&O 96000-97999), and 3404 (C&O 99000-99499).
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Automobile Car Shortage

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., James D Thompson <jaydeet@...> wrote:

The Soo Line bought two groups of automobile cars that straddle 1916;
a couple hundred 40' single sheathed cars from AC&F in 1915, and a
couple of hundred 40' double sheathed truss rod cars from Haskell &
Barker in 1917. Yes, I know it sounds as if they were moving
backwards, but that's what they did.
Might have been an issue with the rapidly escalating cost of steel
in that
period?

David Thompson


All through the first fifteen years of the twentieth century, AC&F
seemed to have a lock on the Soo's freightcar business, while Barney &
Smith supplied the bulk of the passenger cars, with a couple orders
going to AC&F. neither Haskell & Barker nor Pullman had built much of
anything for the road. However, those two builders were the prime
suppliers to the Wisconsin Central, a road the Soo leased in 1909.
Orders to H&B stop abruptly in 1908.

Just before WWI there was a major realignment. B&S was quickly going
out of business, and the Soo swung the passenger car business to AC&F.
Meanwhile the freightcar business went to H&B. Looking in the 1919 CBC
at what H&B was building for other railroads, I/m not entierly sure
that in 1917 H&B was equipped to build a steel framed car... This was
right at the end of the transition period from wood to steel
construction, and H&B was by no means a major builder. I've gotten the
impression, without finding the documentation to back it up, that this
was a board directive that the business was going to go to H&B, and if
they can't build what we want; we'll take what they can build. The Soo
purchased 800 boxcars, 200 automobile cars, and 250 ore cars from H&B
that year. The ore cars were steel and 244 of them were still on the
roster in 1961, while the wood framed auto and box cars were
essentially gone shortly after WWII (only one of each remaining in 1961).

With the war over, H&B came back with a vengeance in 1920, this time
building steel framed cars; 500 boxcars in 1920 along with 300 more
ore cars; 650 boxcars, 400 stockcars, and 250 reefers in 1921, after
which they became part of Pullman, who continued the trend. By this
time AC&F had also lost the passenger equipment accounts in favor of
Pullman. AC&F only just got a couple more bites at the apple in 1923
and 24, and then they were history.

It certainly looks like there was more going on here than just the
price of steel.

Dennis


Re: NSP coal hoppers

Thomas Baker
 

During the 1950s did the Northern States Power Company have company coal hoppers? If so, of what type? The NSP was big in the Twin Cities, and as a boy I saw coal hoppers in near its plants but never any company-owned cars.

Tom


PSCC hopper article in Model Railroad Hobbyist

Dean Payne
 

The CV hopper in the Model Railroad Hobbyist is based on a Bowser
model, and the author (Marty McGuirk) says that the thing that the
most significant thing that scream "Pennsy" are the tapered side
posts. I, on the other hand, find that the end sills look wrong, too
deep and too tall, extending below the bottom of the side sills.
Another author (I searched for the article in RMC and couldn't find
it, maybe it was in MR) corrected the depth issue by sawing off and
reattaching the end sill, but it still extended below the level of the
side sills. A quick measurement shows the end sills to be about 11"
tall, versus maybe 7.5" for the side member (rough measures, sorry!)
There are a number of non-USRA hoppers that could be modeled using the
Bowser kit, including those manufactured by SSCC (and Cambria??) by
removing these Pennsy-specific details. I will try replacing the end
sill with square styrene stock. I also see six grabs on my prototype,
that may (or may not) be more common with the PSCC/SSCC cars.
The article has re-kindled my interest in these cars, thanks!

Dean Payne


Re: Automobile Car Shortage

water.kresse@...
 

It appears, from reading between the lines in Mr. Lane's article that the driving factor for the all-steel 55-ton hopper cars was that there was an across the country coal car shortage and they would benefit many industries serviced by many railroads.  Some of the other USRA proposed designs were less universally needed.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 12:09:51 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [STMFC] Re:Automobile Car Shortage

I have to wonder if a wartime (or pre-war) shortage of steel may have
been a factor in reducing automobile car construction at this time,
and thus availability of many new automobile box cars.  I have read
that the USRA had to politick for a sufficient allocation of steel to
have hopper cars built in 1918/19.  (Mainline Modeler, March 1982,
page 20.) The article cites a RLHS article by James E. Lane that
appears to quote a USRA committee meeting--

"The question then arose as to what we should do concerning the
proposed 25,000 all-steel hoppers of 55-tons capacity.  A few days ago
Mr. Williams and Mr. Spencer had attended a meeting of the War
Industries Board, the Shipping Board, and other Government departments
and at this meeting it had been indicated that the amount of steel
plates available for railroad use would have to be cut drastically in
order to obtain enough steel plates for shipping purposes.  Mr.
Williams at this meeting agreed to the program proposed and this
program cut down our steel plates to such a point as to preclude us
from getting the 25,000 all-steel hoppers, since the steel plate
allotted to us would fall about 49,000 tons short of enough to
construct these hoppers.

The Conference decided, however, that the all-steel hopper should be
insisted upon and that we ought to find a way to get the additional
49,000 tons of steel plate."

Also keep in mind the well-documented precarious financial position
that many railroads of the time found themselves in.        

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., James D Thompson <jaydeet@...> wrote:



The Soo Line bought two groups of automobile cars that straddle 1916;
a couple hundred 40' single sheathed cars from AC&F in 1915, and a
couple of hundred 40' double sheathed truss rod cars from Haskell &
Barker in 1917. Yes, I know it sounds as if they were moving
backwards, but that's what they did.
Might have been an issue with the rapidly escalating cost of steel
in that
period?

David Thompson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Automobile Car Shortage

water.kresse@...
 

Folks,



Do we know when the fed's started to formally ration steel for ship building, etc. going into WW1?  I would also guess (like gas today) that the price of steel went up on European news before they really had a supply problem.  Because their prices got so high, the C&O had to be forced to buy new cars.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Stokes" <ggstokes@...>
To: stmfc@...
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 1:52:11 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re:Automobile Car Shortage


My understanding is that a number of hopper cars and box cars were build with wood sheathing because of the steel shortage during both World Wars, and many of at least the hoppers had their wood sheathing replaced later with steel sheathing. It would not be unlikely that the Soo Line compromised on the wood DS box cars during WWI, and that was not a retreat in technology but a recognition of reality given the need for more cars and the materials shortages.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA

To: STMFC@...
From: stevelucas3@...
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 05:09:51 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Re:Automobile Car Shortage



















    
            I have to wonder if a wartime (or pre-war) shortage of steel may have

been a factor in reducing automobile car construction at this time,

and thus availability of many new automobile box cars.  I have read

that the USRA had to politick for a sufficient allocation of steel to

have hopper cars built in 1918/19.  (Mainline Modeler, March 1982,

page 20.) The article cites a RLHS article by James E. Lane that

appears to quote a USRA committee meeting--



"The question then arose as to what we should do concerning the

proposed 25,000 all-steel hoppers of 55-tons capacity.  A few days ago

Mr. Williams and Mr. Spencer had attended a meeting of the War

Industries Board, the Shipping Board, and other Government departments

and at this meeting it had been indicated that the amount of steel

plates available for railroad use would have to be cut drastically in

order to obtain enough steel plates for shipping purposes.  Mr.

Williams at this meeting agreed to the program proposed and this

program cut down our steel plates to such a point as to preclude us

from getting the 25,000 all-steel hoppers, since the steel plate

allotted to us would fall about 49,000 tons short of enough to

construct these hoppers.



The Conference decided, however, that the all-steel hopper should be

insisted upon and that we ought to find a way to get the additional

49,000 tons of steel plate."



Also keep in mind the well-documented precarious financial position

that many railroads of the time found themselves in.        



Steve Lucas.



--- In STMFC@..., James D Thompson <jaydeet@...> wrote:

The Soo Line bought two groups of automobile cars that straddle 1916;
a couple hundred 40' single sheathed cars from AC&F in 1915, and a
couple of hundred 40' double sheathed truss rod cars from Haskell &
Barker in 1917. Yes, I know it sounds as if they were moving
backwards, but that's what they did.
Might have been an issue with the rapidly escalating cost of steel
in that

period?
David Thompson



      

    
    
        
        
        
        


        


        
        

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: railroad film

aikenair@...
 

Group,

I think the name of the movie is "Danger Lights" and was made in 1931.

Don Barnes
Aiken, SC
**************Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's
capital.(http://www.aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000027)


Re: railroad film

aikenair@...
 

Al,

Was this the film entitled "Danger Lights"?

Don
**************Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's
capital.(http://www.aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000027)


Re: railroad film

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Bill Davis asked:
"Can you gave a name for the movie?"

Read Al's post again - he gave it to you:

--- On Sat, 1/17/09, Westerfield <westerfield@...> wrote:
From: Westerfield <westerfield@...>
Subject: [STMFC] railroad film
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 10:12 PM

Found another great film - >Oh, Yeah!<, made in 1930 with Robert
Armstrong.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0020234/


Ben Hom


Re: railroad film

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Bill - The name was "Oh, Yeah!" - Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: bill davis
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] railroad film


Hi Al,
Can you gave a name for the movie
BILL

--- On Sat, 1/17/09, Westerfield <westerfield@...> wrote:
From: Westerfield <westerfield@...>
Subject: [STMFC] railroad film
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 10:12 PM

Found another great film - Oh, Yeah!, made in 1930 with Robert Armstrong. Lousy film but plenty of freight car action and lots of steam. Available from Sinister Cinema. - Al Westerfield


Re: railroad film

bill davis <billcheri72@...>
 

Hi Al,
Can you gave a name for the movie
BILL

--- On Sat, 1/17/09, Westerfield <westerfield@...> wrote:
From: Westerfield <westerfield@...>
Subject: [STMFC] railroad film
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 10:12 PM











Found another great film - Oh, Yeah!, made in 1930 with Robert Armstrong. Lousy film but plenty of freight car action and lots of steam. Available from Sinister Cinema. - Al Westerfield



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Automobile Car Shortage

Stokes John
 

My understanding is that a number of hopper cars and box cars were build with wood sheathing because of the steel shortage during both World Wars, and many of at least the hoppers had their wood sheathing replaced later with steel sheathing. It would not be unlikely that the Soo Line compromised on the wood DS box cars during WWI, and that was not a retreat in technology but a recognition of reality given the need for more cars and the materials shortages.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA

To: STMFC@...
From: stevelucas3@...
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 05:09:51 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Re:Automobile Car Shortage




















I have to wonder if a wartime (or pre-war) shortage of steel may have

been a factor in reducing automobile car construction at this time,

and thus availability of many new automobile box cars. I have read

that the USRA had to politick for a sufficient allocation of steel to

have hopper cars built in 1918/19. (Mainline Modeler, March 1982,

page 20.) The article cites a RLHS article by James E. Lane that

appears to quote a USRA committee meeting--



"The question then arose as to what we should do concerning the

proposed 25,000 all-steel hoppers of 55-tons capacity. A few days ago

Mr. Williams and Mr. Spencer had attended a meeting of the War

Industries Board, the Shipping Board, and other Government departments

and at this meeting it had been indicated that the amount of steel

plates available for railroad use would have to be cut drastically in

order to obtain enough steel plates for shipping purposes. Mr.

Williams at this meeting agreed to the program proposed and this

program cut down our steel plates to such a point as to preclude us

from getting the 25,000 all-steel hoppers, since the steel plate

allotted to us would fall about 49,000 tons short of enough to

construct these hoppers.



The Conference decided, however, that the all-steel hopper should be

insisted upon and that we ought to find a way to get the additional

49,000 tons of steel plate."



Also keep in mind the well-documented precarious financial position

that many railroads of the time found themselves in.



Steve Lucas.



--- In STMFC@..., James D Thompson <jaydeet@...> wrote:

The Soo Line bought two groups of automobile cars that straddle 1916;
a couple hundred 40' single sheathed cars from AC&F in 1915, and a
couple of hundred 40' double sheathed truss rod cars from Haskell &
Barker in 1917. Yes, I know it sounds as if they were moving
backwards, but that's what they did.
Might have been an issue with the rapidly escalating cost of steel
in that

period?
David Thompson


cable carrying gons

Schuyler Larrabee
 

"I'm sure that the usual railway luck held out, and that the bad journal was on one of the trucks of
a car near the middle of the load."

Of COURSE it was!!

SGL

Bet that the carmen had a fun time changing out the offending
wheelset! I'm sure that the usual railway luck held out, and that the
bad journal was on one of the trucks of a car near the middle of the load.

An interesting model to build, for sure.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

I do have a photo showing cables though. The ERIE carried a
shipment of undersea cables to the New
York Harbor, all in those high-side gons. The cable was laid in
each gon, end to end, and looped
from one to the next, no breaks. A big sign on the side about how
these ten gons were carrying a
continuous cable some thirty miles long (number selected for this
post, may not be accurate). But,
the photo shows the shipment on a siding, because one of the cars in
the middle of the cut has. . .
. a hotbox.

Somebody's day was truly ruined.

SGL



Re: Automobile Car Shortage

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

I have to wonder if a wartime (or pre-war) shortage of steel may have
been a factor in reducing automobile car construction at this time,
and thus availability of many new automobile box cars. I have read
that the USRA had to politick for a sufficient allocation of steel to
have hopper cars built in 1918/19. (Mainline Modeler, March 1982,
page 20.) The article cites a RLHS article by James E. Lane that
appears to quote a USRA committee meeting--

"The question then arose as to what we should do concerning the
proposed 25,000 all-steel hoppers of 55-tons capacity. A few days ago
Mr. Williams and Mr. Spencer had attended a meeting of the War
Industries Board, the Shipping Board, and other Government departments
and at this meeting it had been indicated that the amount of steel
plates available for railroad use would have to be cut drastically in
order to obtain enough steel plates for shipping purposes. Mr.
Williams at this meeting agreed to the program proposed and this
program cut down our steel plates to such a point as to preclude us
from getting the 25,000 all-steel hoppers, since the steel plate
allotted to us would fall about 49,000 tons short of enough to
construct these hoppers.

The Conference decided, however, that the all-steel hopper should be
insisted upon and that we ought to find a way to get the additional
49,000 tons of steel plate."

Also keep in mind the well-documented precarious financial position
that many railroads of the time found themselves in.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., James D Thompson <jaydeet@...> wrote:



The Soo Line bought two groups of automobile cars that straddle 1916;
a couple hundred 40' single sheathed cars from AC&F in 1915, and a
couple of hundred 40' double sheathed truss rod cars from Haskell &
Barker in 1917. Yes, I know it sounds as if they were moving
backwards, but that's what they did.
Might have been an issue with the rapidly escalating cost of steel
in that
period?

David Thompson


Re: Model Rail Hobbyist - online magazine

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Bet that the carmen had a fun time changing out the offending
wheelset! I'm sure that the usual railway luck held out, and that the
bad journal was on one of the trucks of a car near the middle of the load.

An interesting model to build, for sure.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

I do have a photo showing cables though. The ERIE carried a
shipment of undersea cables to the New
York Harbor, all in those high-side gons. The cable was laid in
each gon, end to end, and looped
from one to the next, no breaks. A big sign on the side about how
these ten gons were carrying a
continuous cable some thirty miles long (number selected for this
post, may not be accurate). But,
the photo shows the shipment on a siding, because one of the cars in
the middle of the cut has. . .
. a hotbox.

Somebody's day was truly ruined.

SGL


Re: railroad film

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Al,
Be on the lookout for Perils of Pauline #9.

Mike Brock


Found another great film - Oh, Yeah!, made in 1930 with Robert Armstrong. Lousy film but plenty of freight car action and lots of steam. Available from Sinister Cinema. - Al Westerfield


Re: Tichy's D&H single-sheathed, cement-service box cars

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Don, GAF wouldn't have been a D&H customer in Binghamton (No "p" in Binghamton, please). It most
likely would have been switched by the ERIE at one of it's plants in Johnson City. I think. I
haven't yet seen if Chuch Yungkurth responded or not, I don't think so.

I'm not quite comprehending why GAF would want crushed slate, in Binghamton, where they made
(crummy) film, but I do know they made shingles . . . somewhere.

SGL

The operative words here are "crushed slate loading". By 1955 the D&H
had a reasonably sizeable fleet of ACF 70 ton and other covered hoppers.
Thus the converted USRA single sheathed box cars may no longer have
been required to meet service needs. The D&H Washinton County Branch,
however, left a junction at Eagle Bridge, NY, with the D&H having
trackage rights in this period between Troy, NY and Eagle Bridge over
the B&M's Fitchburg Div. main line. This branch crossed the VT-NY State
Line three times before meeting the D&H Whitehall, NY to Rutland, VT
branch at Castleton, VT. The freight on this now abandoned line was
known for many years as the "Slate Picker" owing to the number of slate
quarries served. The "crushed slate" refered to was slate in fine
granular form used in the manufacture of architect shingles. Thus the
loaded cars could expect to be routed to such places as Bird & Sons,
located on the New Haven in East Walpole, Mass. and other manutacturers
like General Analine & Film (now GAF Corp). Chuck Yungkurth would know
this better than me but GAF may have been a D&H customer in the
Binghampton, NY area. I do not know whether or not slate granuales from
this source were also supplied to Domtar in Quebec, Canada but, given
the short distance, it would not surprise me if no local Canadian
sources were avaialable to that Canadian manufacturer of shingles.

Hope this is of some help, Don Valentine

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "David Smith" <dlsio4@...> wrote:

In the RPI site, all the D&H SS boxcars listed, including the ones
converted to covered hoppers, were built in the early 30's.

Series 17001-17500 had 427 cars in it in my 1955 ORER. The RPI site
implies that this series included the cement cars, but the 1955 ORER
also lists series 16900-16929 with 20 cars as "box, hopper, steel
frame" and a note saying they had "enclosed hoppers with roof loading
hatches and hopper bottom discharge gates for crushed slate loading."
There's a picture of one of these cars in grey paint inthe 1940s on the
RPI site, which identifies it as "cement box car". The 17000 series
was extensively rebuilt. No info on RPI site about how many, if any
rebuilt cars retained cement loading features.

Dave Smith



railroad film

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Found another great film - Oh, Yeah!, made in 1930 with Robert Armstrong. Lousy film but plenty of freight car action and lots of steam. Available from Sinister Cinema. - Al Westerfield

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