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Freight Cars Built in Railroad Shops
Richard Hendrickson
On Feb 22, 2009, at 6:13 AM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
(regarding the Soo Line's postwar box cars) Since these cars were built in-house rather than being ordered from a The large number of steam era freight cars built by the railroads in their own shops, rather than being purchased from commercial car builders, deserves more attention than it has generally received. And, as the Soo Line example shows, the railroads that followed this practice weren't always among the country's largest. Another example is the St. Louis Southwestern, which both built and rebuilt many cars in its Pine Bluff shops. Of course, a majority of the new cars acquired by the New York Central System in the 1940s and '50s were built in the Merchants Despatch shops at East Rochester, and MDT was a wholly owned subsidiary. Other RRs that began building or completely rebuilding cars in their own shops as early as the 1930s included the Pennsylvania, Milwaukee, Santa Fe, Union Pacific, Southern Pacific, Burlington, Wabash, Lehigh Valley, Texas & Pacific, and Northern Pacific, and I'm sure I've overlooked some. During the depression, it was a way the railroads could get new (or totally renewed) freight cars that they otherwise couldn't afford and, at the same time, keep their shop forces on the payroll. After World War II, an additional motivation for building their own cars was that, for years, the commercial car builders had more orders than they could well handle and were months, if not years, behind in making deliveries. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that the railroads assembled the cars in their own shops from kits, since underframes, ends, sides, doors, roofs, and appliances like truck parts and wheels, draft gear, hand brakes, and air brake equipment could all be delivered ready to use by the various railway parts manufacturers. Still, assembling freight cars was a major undertaking. However, it had the advantage that the railroads were able to exercise their own quality control and also to specify combinations of design features which the commercial builders were reluctant to provide as, especially after WW II, they much preferred to build cars of their own increasingly standardized designs (the Pullman-Standard PS-1s being an extreme example). Richard Hendrickson
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Re: Kadee minimum body box widths
Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
The Achilles Heel of prototypically narrow coupler boxes is that they inherently limit coupler swing, more if the shank pivot point is long, less if the pivot point is short. IMHO, this fundamental fact is what has held up companies otherwise favoring prototypical accuracy (such as Kadee) from moving in with all fours to adopt this naturally- attractive alternative. Less understandable in this mix is the continuing general tendency of suppliers to be overly solicitous only to those still dwelling in a dwindling HO modeling world of very short track radii.
The "Kadee Box" should be more accurately termed "Athearn Box" inasmuch as Kadee pragmatically adapted their coupler to the Athearn box of the '50s, which they judged at the time to be the de facto predominant installed-base coupler box . About a year or so ago, a review of couplers in one of the magazines judged a narrow box semi- scale coupler "unsatisfactory". When I challenged the author on his data behind this conclusion, I learned that all testing was performed only on sharp track 22" radius or less, a not-unexpected finding by itself, but totally misleading for so many of those pursuing the prototype modeling inherent with larger radii! The attractive narrow coupler box within Jon Cagle's wonderful resin tank car kit (adapted to a Kadee #78) comes with a price: the long shank of the #78 coupler, further limited by the narrow box opening, * severely* limits the coupler swing. In this regard, this is not a model that would usually be attractive to most who will be favoring 18" curves. For those favoring such short radii in a prototype setting, e.g. industrial trackage, you may have problems, especially if two similar cars are to be coupled together. As far as coupling/uncoupling on these curves with such cars, the operator may well have to manually center the couplers, just as in the prototype. IMHO, this is just another area where the ongoing search for the "prototype" in appearance and operations should be moving us to adjust our thinking: e.g. advocating that the sophisticated models and accessories that we so favor, also be aimed to something well above the least common operational parameters. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento
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Intermountain 70-ton plain journal bearing trucks
Andy Carlson
I have just received from Intermountain their 70 ton plain journal bearing cast steel truck in HO. This is the truck tooled up for the ACF 1958 cu ft covered hopper. I am offering these trucks at $1.75/pair, less wheelsets. Shipping is $2.00 via First class mail in a padded envelope. If interested in acquiring some of these trucks, contact me off-list (please) at <midcentury@...>. Thanks,
-Andy Carlson Ojai CA 805 646 3334
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window dressing
Bill Hodkinson
Can anyone point me to a good source of window dressing, to put on the
inside of HO scale windows? Bill Hodkinson
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Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars
SUVCWORR@...
Branchline does have 4 different PL schemes for these cars.? If you purchase the 4 pack you will receive one of each version.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Rich Orr
-----Original Message-----
From: sparachuk <sparachuk@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 9:17 pm Subject: [STMFC] Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars --- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote: Guys: Perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me but it seems to me Branchline said they had the big SOO LINE in three different places. I used to work in a hobby store and I was puzzled why there were three different product numbers for what looked like the same car. There was wide and narrow spacing and also I think there was a lower spacing.... Actually I just checked the Branchline site and they said they have four different spacings. What do you say, SOO fans? Stephan Parachuk Toronto ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
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Re: TLT Canadian Boxcars
Chet French <cfrench@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Brian J Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:
Line Trains Canadian Built boxcars. I recall looking at them when theyfirst came out and the ladders were molded very far from the ends. The cars Isaw today seemed to have the ladders located at the same locations as theadjacent intermountain, Red Caboose boxcars. Now I know comparing models tomodels is not the best approach. However it appears TLT may have retooled thecar to be more prototypical. Does anyone know if these cars were retooled,or were my eyes deceiving me?Brian, Just looked at three of the cars Friday on a friends layout. He had just purchased them and the side ladders still appear to be attached too far from the ends. Chet French dixon, IL
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Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Yes. It's also possible that the lettering was moved to the final location during the production of that run; also cars in series 45100-45498 might exhibit all the same variations because it appears the two groups were produced concurrently. Now you see why no one has ever tried to determine the start and end number of each variation; with two unrelated number series it's just too confusing... for the number of cars of any of these variations really needed on the layout, it's better to just find a photo and use that specific car number. Since these cars were built in-house rather than being ordered from a builder, it appears that production was more or less continuous over a span of years, so things like lettering changes just happened when they happened. Interspersed with the production of 40' cars were several groups of 40' insulated cars (XLI), 50' XLs, and 50' double door cars with the door openings centered for paper loading. The 40' combo door cars built in 1959 were about the end of the in house production, but after buying a few small lots of PS-1's from Pullman and some RBLs from PC&F, they cranked up again in 1963 to build 50' exterior post cars, which continued for another sixteen or so years. North Fond du Lac was building cars almost continuously between 1948 and 1979. Dennis
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Re: Freight Cars Built in Railroad Shops
Charles Hladik
Now, there are a couple of statements that should cause some folks to quit
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questioning the delivery times of certain kits. Chuck Hladik
In a message dated 2/22/2009 12:44:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rhendrickson@... writes: On Feb 22, 2009, at 6:13 AM, Dennis Storzek wrote: (regarding the Soo Line's postwar box cars) Since these cars were built in-house rather than being ordered from aThe large number of steam era freight cars built by the railroads in their own shops, rather than being purchased from commercial car builders, deserves more attention than it has generally received. And, as the Soo Line example shows, the railroads that followed this practice weren't always among the country's largest. Another example is the St. Louis Southwestern, which both built and rebuilt many cars in its Pine Bluff shops. Of course, a majority of the new cars acquired by the New York Central System in the 1940s and '50s were built in the Merchants Despatch shops at East Rochester, and MDT was a wholly owned subsidiary. Other RRs that began building or completely rebuilding cars in their own shops as early as the 1930s included the Pennsylvania, Milwaukee, Santa Fe, Union Pacific, Southern Pacific, Burlington, Wabash, Lehigh Valley, Texas & Pacific, and Northern Pacific, and I'm sure I've overlooked some. During the depression, it was a way the railroads could get new (or totally renewed) freight cars that they otherwise couldn't afford and, at the same time, keep their shop forces on the payroll. After World War II, an additional motivation for building their own cars was that, for years, the commercial car builders had more orders than they could well handle and were months, if not years, behind in making deliveries. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that the railroads assembled the cars in their own shops from kits, since underframes, ends, sides, doors, roofs, and appliances like truck parts and wheels, draft gear, hand brakes, and air brake equipment could all be delivered ready to use by the various railway parts manufacturers. Still, assembling freight cars was a major undertaking. However, it had the advantage that the railroads were able to exercise their own quality control and also to specify combinations of design features which the commercial builders were reluctant to provide as, especially after WW II, they much preferred to build cars of their own increasingly standardized designs (the Pullman-Standard PS-1s being an extreme example). Richard Hendrickson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
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Re: MP Eagle Merchandise colors
asychis@...
They did make to some pretty obscure places on the MP. In discussion with
Joe Collias, I sent him a photo of my layout with one of these cars spotted at the house track in Zeigler. Joe made mention that he didn't think an Eagle Merchandise Car would show up on the Southern Illinois coal branch lines. But, lo and behold, a photo of the Bush yards around 1954 or so, that he sent me, shows one of the cars. Jerry Michels **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003)
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Re: Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars
Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
--- In STMFC@..., WaltGCox@... wrote:
1988, of RMC? He also hade multiple articles in RMJ in the 90's. ThanksThat is the bible I have been using. Walt And that would be what volume and number or issue number please?? CN Lines is not listed by year and month so that is not as helpful as it otherwise might be. Thanks, Don Valentine
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Re: Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars
Walter Cox
In a message dated 2/22/2009 11:01:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
riverman_vt@... writes: And that would be what volume and number or issue number please?? CN Lines is not listed by year and month so that is not as helpful as it otherwise might be. Sorry, back then they were referred to both ways. It's Vol.3 No.4. There was also a modeling follow up Vol.4 No.3 (July 1992). Walt **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
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Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars
Dennis Storzek wrote
The Soo equipment diagram sheets show 45100-45498e as built in 1950 Model Railroading, April 1989: photo of SOO #136802 w/ $ herald. So is it possible that 136800-137198 got all three variations as they were being built?? The three being (1) $ herald (2) close to door, high letters (3) further from door, high letters. And then repaints got (4) away from door, lowered letters! Tim O'Connor
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Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars
P.S. I have a bunch of Soo cars, including Front RangeNo one to my knowledge has ever done the cars with the lettering Dennis, If you can get me a picture of one, I've got the decals! :-) But you're right, my Des Plaines custom cars and the SLH&TS cars do not represent that short lived lettering. Tim O'Connor
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Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
The Soo equipment diagram sheets show 45100-45498e as built in 1950 under GMS (General Mechanical Supt.) order number 6284, and 136800-137198e as built in 1951 under GMS 6285. However, I seem to recall that there are lettering variations in both groups, so it would seem that both were being built concurrently, perhaps in alternating batches. In Wallace Abby's "The Little Jewel" there is a photo of at least nine cars (the string goes out of the picture) being switched out of the paint shop, all with the lettering close to the door, and while the numbers can't be deciphered in the half tone, it is clear that it is a mix of five and six digit numbers. The number series relates to which company was paying for them and thus owned them; remember, between 1909 and 12-31-60 the Wisconsin Central was still a separate company being operated by the Soo. The cars with six digit numbers are WC and should have a tiny WC stenciled in the upper left corner of the sides. In Patrick Dorin's "The SOO LINE" there is a company photo of a car right outside the paint shop with the close lettering, numbered 45398, weighed 10-51. On page 129 of the same book there is a photo of a short train heading away from the photographer; the last car, 137154 with the spread out lettering in the high position. I was also wrong about no new car production in 1952, the diagram book claims 45500-45898e and 137200-137498e built that year under GMS 6342 and 6343. By 1953 Soo changed to lettering further from doors, e.g.No one to my knowledge has ever done the cars with the lettering high but spread out. Dennis
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Re: Kadee minimum body box widths
My quick measurement shows a Kadee at 7/16
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The standard Draft gear box that I sell are 5/16 and I'm sure that could be narrower. If you can find one of my USRA Gondolas those were even narrower. Sincerely, Rich Yoder 7 Edgedale Court Wyomissing PA 19610-1913 610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM www.richyodermodels.com
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of David Lehlbach Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:49 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Kadee minimum body box widths Has anyone on list ever done math to determine the minimum Kadee coupler box width needed to adhere to 18" radius curves yet allow use of Kadee couplers? I know there are a series of variables, but an enterprising engineer could figure that out - Mr Storzek? Variables I can think of: - what car is coupled to - length of car - distance from Kadee pivot to truck center - distance of Kadee shank With the Kadee whisker couplers, box widths could become more narrow. Of course, the pivot point being so far back with long shank precludes using significantly smaller boxes which is why Accurail designed a new coupler box with shorter shank. Another concept is the option of a shorter shank Kadee whisker I suppose. I noted Jon Cagle's Southern Car & Foundry Standard tank cars have nice narrow boxes and use of Kadee whiskers. Any mathmeticians out there? David Lehlbach [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
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Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@..., "Brian J Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:
the SOO LINE Lettering in different locations on different cars. How manydifferent locations was the large SOO LINE lettering applied on the post warboxcars? Perhaps more importantly how many of each location was applied?137006 has the SOO LINE high and tight to the door.Here's a brief chronology of Soo Line lettering on steel boxcars: First 9'-4" IH cars built in 1936 through the 10'-5" IH cars built during WWII, all cars built by Pullman-Standard: Oxide red sides and roof, black ends, "$" herald with black background. First cars built at North Fond du Lac in 1948 to 1950: oxide red sides and roof, black ends "$" herald WITHOUT black background. 1951 was a transitional year. The first part of North Fond du Lac's production was identical to the previous cars. Sometime during the year the "boxcar block" lettering was introduced. Initial placement was close to the door, tight to the top plate of the sides. The two words were then spread out from the door for better visual balance, still tight to the top plate. Someone must have then given some thought to how they were going to paint the old low roof 1936 cars in this scheme, and the lettering was lowered so it would line up with the same lettering applied tight to the top plate on one of the 9'-4" IH cars. This then became standard. No one has been able to come up with an exact number of cars done in the two interim schemes,it couldn't have been many, but because it was the "new look", a lot of photos were taken of the cars with the lettering close to the door. All these cars had oxide roofs and black ends. There were no new cars built in 1952, and the black ends were dropped with the production in 1953. Boxcar block lettering continued in the lower, spread out position. In in the late fifties the natural pigment oxide color was replaced with a synthetic pigment color that was a darker brown. The boxcar block lettering was also revised about 1958 or '59 (Too late for my interests, so I don't have a reference handy). The revised lettering had the center bar of the S exactly horizontal; the earlier S had it at a slight angle. There were other differences, but this is the most noticeable. The first cars that were painted something other than oxide or freight car red (PS-1s painted gray with black ends and red doors) came in 1961, and so are beyond the scope of this list. Dennis
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Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars
Brian
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During 1951 Soo started with $ herald, e.g. (WC) 136800-137198 blt 1951 FOND DU LAC (200) [MORTON rb] In 1951 Soo changed to bold SOO LINE close to the doors, e.g. 45100-45498 blt 1951 FOND DU LAC (200) [MORTON rb] By 1953 Soo changed to lettering further from doors, e.g. (WC) 137200-137698 blt 1953 FOND DU LAC All of the above series were even numbers only. Tim O'Connor P.S. I have a bunch of Soo cars, including Front Range kits from the Soo Historical Society. I think I've got all the lettering variations. :-)
While working on my 2 SOO cars, I noticed that Branchline located the SOO
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Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars
sparachuk <sparachuk@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:
Guys: Perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me but it seems to me Branchline said they had the big SOO LINE in three different places. I used to work in a hobby store and I was puzzled why there were three different product numbers for what looked like the same car. There was wide and narrow spacing and also I think there was a lower spacing.... Actually I just checked the Branchline site and they said they have four different spacings. What do you say, SOO fans? Stephan Parachuk Toronto
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Re: SOO postwar AAR Boxcars
Ed Hawkins
On Feb 21, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:
While working on my 2 SOO cars, I noticed that Branchline located theBrian, Perhaps Bill Schneider will chime in on this question. I recall assisting Bill by sending to him a variety of photos plus some other references to photos in various books and magazines. Bill will probably tell you that no other box car in Branchline's product line was more challenging than the Soo Line's postwar AAR box cars. Some had black ends, others not. There were at least three variations on the lettering including the original dollar-sign railroad emblem, then at least two variations on the billboard SOO LINE stencils with some cars having SOO LINE close to the doors and others more widely spaced. The latter version appears to be most common. There's a neat shot of one of these cars on page 52 of the Morning Sun book Trackside Around St. Louis. The car is upright, but had come disengaged from the train and is shown on the ground in the middle of a street near a railroad overpass. This car had the SOO LINE billboard stencils closely spaced next to the door. The car had black ends and possibly a black roof. Unfortunately I cannot make out the car number, but the first 3 digits were 137, which indicates the car was built in either 1951 or 1953 given the placards were in the high position. Soo Line box cars built in 1954 had their placards in the low position. The photo was taken Oct. 15, 1954. I have a number of photos of cars that I will describe for your potential use: 45450, new 11-51, wide spacing 46034 and 45056, new 7-54, wide spacing 136802, built 1951 (cannot read date stencils), reweighed 6-58, $ sign emblem 137190, new 11-51, wide spacing 137272, new 6-53, wide spacing 136502, built 10-49, apparently repainted and reweighed 2-52, wide spacing (appears to have black ends) From all appearances the earliest Soo LIne postwar AAR box cars built in 1949 and the first part of the order built in 1951 originally had the $ sign emblem. The switch to the billboard SOO LINE stencils apparently occurred sometime during the 1951 production run. Regards, Ed Hawkins
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Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars
Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
Way back in 2007 Pierre Oliver said:
I have need of dozens of these cars in all their variants and willI did a search on the MR Train Index site and came up with 65 hits for Stafford. I need some help narrowing down the back issue(s) I need to find. Was this the article in the August 1993, February 1994, or July 1988, of RMC? He also hade multiple articles in RMJ in the 90's. Thanks Brian Carlson
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