Date   

Re: Pure Carbonic - DICX 204

Charlie Vlk
 

I'm not so sure that using Dry Ice precluded the use of top loading hatches and bunkers.
The 1940 CBC has photos of what appear to be two different purpose-built cars, DICX 1001first described in Railway Age in 1931which appears to be an exterior post all-metal car with conventional hinged reefer doors, and it does have what look like regular ice hatches (at least there is extensive walkway in the normal area and what looks like the base of the hatch peeking through as you look from the ground at the corner of the car). There is nothing to hint at what bunker lies inside the end, if any.
The other style of car, MALX 6016 and LCIX date from 1935-6 and have partially tapered side steel carbodies and are of similar outward appearance, differing mostly in the number of gallery ice supply doors and neither has roof hatches as the ice is place on trays above the cargo via these side door(s).
DICX 1001 was a car meant for using dry ice to cool perishables or frozen foods; the MALX and LCIX cars were for transport of the Ice itself and did not have any lower doors for
access to the lower half of the carbody, loading and unloading these cars must have been very labor intensive!!
Charlie Vlk




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Canadian cars on the GN

Doug Polinder
 

On 2/18/09 Larry Wolohon posted:

Sorry, when I did my research a couple of years ago titled Why you should >>run freight cars Not of your prototype, I found on the GN there were very >>few Canadian freight cars in GN yards or in GN consists in the '40's & >>'50's in the photos that I looked through. This surprised me as the GN >>goes into Vancouver, Winnipeg & several other places in Canada.
So I would say that Brian Carlson's statements are true, at least these >>statements match what I observed. Attendees of this clinic also stated >>what Brian Carlson has mentioned, when I noted how surprised I was at the >>lack of Canadian cars seen on the GN. Of course the GN hauled lots of >>lumber & lumber products that originated on their lines so there wouldn't >>be very many Canadian freight cars hauling paper & paper products in the >>GN territory, It would seem to me, anyway.
Larry Wolohon/Attempting to model the GN in Whitefish, Mt
I think a disclaimer is needed here. Larry per his signature is modeling Whitefish MT, on the GN east-west mainline between Seattle and St. Paul. The vast majority of the GN photographs that exist from the 40s and 50s (by the GN Rwy, Warren McGee, H.W. Pontin, Henry Griffiths, Phil Hastings, and others) are of the transcontinental line on which Whitefish is located and indeed do not show Canadian cars (cf. the well-known publicity shots of the FTs with a solid train of the new orange plywood boxcars on Two Medicine Bridge near Glacier Park or the brakeman decorating the rooftop in the Whitefish yard with cars from at least 18 different lines identifiable, none of them Canadian, both photos in Kalmbach's _Great Northern Railway in the Pacific Northwest_). Larry's conclusion is correct given the paucity of available data. Naturally: the Canadian lines are not going to shorthaul themselves and hand their BC-origin forest-products traffic over to the GN
at Vancouver BC when they can haul it all the way to the Twin Cities, Chicago, or other eastern US points themselves (the CN could do this via GTW or DWP/CNW and the CP via SOO). Canadian cars moving Canadian products to the central or eastern US will move to gateways well to the east of Vancouver BC. This was as true in the steam era as it was a few decades later during my employment for a certain unnamed green railroad in a certain out-of-scope era. 1968 GN wheel reports on Ben Ringnalda's fine website (see Freight Service/Wheel Reports in http://www.greatnorthernempire.net/) support this conclusion; many of the cars in these 1968 reports are from the steam era, of course.

However, I will respectfully but vigorously disagree with the supposition that few Canadian cars moved on the GN. The north-south third subdivision of the Cascade Division, between Everett WA and Vancouver BC, funneled a fair amount of Canadian traffic to California and other southwest destinations. Richard Hendrickson noted that Canadian cars made their way to Southern California via the GN/WP/ATSF Inside Gateway in a memorable post to a Santa Fe modelers' group describing traffic over Cajon Pass in the 1940s. I regret that I have not yet been able to locate wheel reports substantiating the percentage of Canadian cars on such GN freights as 711/712, and pictures of freight traffic on this line in Our Era are scarce (more attention was focused on, say, the _Internationals_ of 1950 or remaining steam than the merely mundane freight traffic, or else photographers skipped the largely water-level third sub to concentrate on the mountainous Stevens Pass
line with its Cascade Tunnel, electrics, Brobdingnagian mallets, and _Empire Builder_).

It should be noted that CN as opposed to CP provided the bulk of interchange traffic to the GN (CP preferred the Northern Pacific at the Sumas WA gateway for interchange traffic, possibly because of the ancient rivalry between GN's Hill and CP's Van Horne or possibly because CP extracted a little more linehaul at Sumas than New Westminster BC; the NP handed this traffic off to the SP at Portland for furtherance). Some published photos do indicate CN car movement on GN (esp. Hickcox' recent _Great Northern in Color Vol. 1: Lines West_; see pp. 17, 33, taken at Interbay Yard and on the Inside Gateway, respectively). I have no memory of the steam era as I was born in 1959, but I clearly recall remarking to myself during the 1960s and 70s how CN cars seemed to dominate the consists of #711 and #712 (also, no doubt, remarking to myself how many of these were 40' NSC cars from before 1960; this is also when I became aware of Canada's policy of bilingualism,
as one side of the CN cars had dimensional data in English and the other in French). PGE cars may also have appeared in these consists on occasion--I don't specifically recall these, and there existed a car-float operation between Vancouver BC and Seattle. I should also point out that photographs in the above and other books such as Warren Wing's outstanding Northwest Rail Pictorial trilogy seem to support both Brock's Fifth Rule and the Gilbert-Nelson hypothesis--GN trains did haul NP (and Milwaukee) cars, and even WAG and NC&StL cars made it to GN rails now and then.

Obviously without wheel reports or other documentation no one is forced to agree with my conclusion that Canadian car movement on the GN third sub was significant and consistent during the steam era. On the other hand GN third-sub on-line traffic was not enough to fill out the number of trains run (e.g. the Intalco aluminum plant at Cherry Point did not open until 1964) so it is reasonable to believe that much of this traffic was Canadian in origin (or Canadian empties returning north) and bridged between Vancouver BC and Everett (a good deal of it, I am speculating, continuing down the Inside Gateway to interchange at Bieber CA with the WP).

Regards,

Doug Polinder
Grand Rapids MI


Re: Pure Carbonic - DICX 204

Terry Link <trlink@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Hinman" <rhinman@...>


This must be a new photo on your site Terry?? DICX 190 was built in
Oct 36 and converted in 1939 or 40 when the lease to Dry Ice Corp
was increased by 30 cars. Car was scrapped in Jun of 1958
This shot is not officially on the site yet - but will be shortly. I have
over 100 photos to add - mostly freight cars and not NYC related. I've
already uploaded the photos - but haven't added them to their respective
pages yet - most will appear in my non-nyc photo collection on the site in the near future:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/non-nyc/non-nyc.htm


Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
www.canadasouthern.com


Re: MTH PFE Reefers

Ed Walters <eddie_walters@...>
 

I just realised, I didn't make it clear I was referring to MTH's HO
line. Not that it seems to be that much different to their O gauge line
in accuracy!

Ed

--- In STMFC@..., "Ed Walters" <eddie_walters@...> wrote:

I hate to mention toy trains on this list, but perhaps it's worth
getting the record straight on it!

What's the expert opinion on the new MTH PFE reefers shown in their
catalog, along with their articulated UP 4-12-2 and "Operating Action
Cars"... clearly their copy writers have at least skimmed through the
esteemed Mr Thompson's tome on the subject, as they've quoted a
paragraph from it, but is the model actually any good? I have my
doubts, but perhaps eventully MTH will get SOMETHING right and they
would be worth picking up.


MTH PFE Reefers

Ed Walters <eddie_walters@...>
 

I hate to mention toy trains on this list, but perhaps it's worth
getting the record straight on it!

What's the expert opinion on the new MTH PFE reefers shown in their
catalog, along with their articulated UP 4-12-2 and "Operating Action
Cars"... clearly their copy writers have at least skimmed through the
esteemed Mr Thompson's tome on the subject, as they've quoted a
paragraph from it, but is the model actually any good? I have my
doubts, but perhaps eventully MTH will get SOMETHING right and they
would be worth picking up.


Re: Drill Bits and MiniMate

James F. Brewer <jfbrewer@...>
 

Dave,

Thanks.

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: David North
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:06 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Drill Bits and MiniMate


I usually buy my drill bits from Micro-Mark, who advertise them as "high
speed steel."

Are these good to use in the MiniMate? Any other suggestions for drill bits?
Many thanks.
Jim Brewer

All drill bits are relatively brittle, Jim. It's a function of the hardening
process.

From my experience high speed steel bits are more malleable (less brittle)

than carbon steel and again IMHO hold their sharpness better.

They are also far less brittle than carbide bits. Haven't used carbide for
long enough

to know how long they stay sharp for.

For your application, I'd use HSS (high speed steel) bits.

Cheers

Dave


Re: Pure Carbonic - DICX 204

Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

This must be a new photo on your site Terry?? DICX 190 was built in
Oct 36 and converted in 1939 or 40 when the lease to Dry Ice Corp
was increased by 30 cars. Car was scrapped in Jun of 1958

Roger Hinman

On Feb 27, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Terry Link wrote:


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...>
top of the running boards.

Were these cars entirely "custom" (on the outside) or might I find
something
similar enough for anything in the HO scale market to use or
kitbash?
Opinions?

Any pointers to where I might find other car images would also be
most
welcome.
Here is a photo of DICX 190:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/non-nyc/images/dicx-190.JPG

Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
www.canadasouthern.com



Re: Drill Bits and MiniMate

krlpeters
 

High carbon tool steel can actually be harder than HSS. The downside is that it also more brittle, and easily loses that hardness when heated.
 
Carbide is harder than both and is also more brittle.
 
The biggest cause of drill and tap breakage in the small sizes modelers use is misalignment of the tool with the hole. Using a drill/tap guide, like the one Micro Mart sells as a conversion for the NWSL Sensipress, will greatly improve tool life, even in the soft materials we commonly use.  I work as a machinist, and while I rarely deal with these small sizes, I am well aware of the factors involed.
 
It may not matter that much how long a drill will last, but don't these small drills and taps ALWAYS break after the store is closed for the weekend?  Mine do!
 
Karl Peters.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Pure Carbonic - DICX 204

Terry Link <trlink@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...>
top of the running boards.

Were these cars entirely "custom" (on the outside) or might I find something
similar enough for anything in the HO scale market to use or kitbash?
Opinions?

Any pointers to where I might find other car images would also be most
welcome.
Here is a photo of DICX 190:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/non-nyc/images/dicx-190.JPG

Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
www.canadasouthern.com


Re: Pure Carbonic - DICX 204

Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

Up into the mid fifties, all of the DICX cars supplied by MDT were
modifications to their standard cars made by building insert kits and
modifying the doors; as Larry King suggested one can model
the composite car by taking the Sunshine kit and modifying the doors;
you could do the same thing with the Sunshine kit for the steel
reefer. Some of these cars went back to reefer service after the lease
expired. As with most prototypes, there are exceptions. Some cars had
bunkers removed but I've seen no photographic evidence that ice
hatches were ever removed. In the fifties the approaches were changed
as it
was cheaper to build a heavily insulated car than to modify a
refrigerator car.


Roger Hinman

On Feb 27, 2009, at 1:48 AM, Dave Nelson wrote:

Am looking for more information of the cars of the Pure Carbonic
company.
Here's an image of one such car:

<<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.northeast.railfan.net/im
ages/dicx208.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.northeast.railfan.net/rolling11.html&u
sg
=
__TXY0x8g4zcrEXJRNps8E5WqMhi8
=&h=576&w=718&sz=52&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid
=COdtszlR7zSyMM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddicx%2Bcars
%26um%3D1%2
6hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGLG_enUS309US309%26sa%3DN>>

The pre-1950 cars all seem to be 13'6" (like in the image) or 13' 4"
to the
top of the running boards.

Were these cars entirely "custom" (on the outside) or might I find
something
similar enough for anything in the HO scale market to use or kitbash?
Opinions?

Any pointers to where I might find other car images would also be most
welcome.

TIA.

Dave Nelson



Frisco boxcar red

bflynnd1
 

Hello,
I am completing a Sunshine SLSF kit# 80.8 150000 series SS tall
boxcar. Can someone give me a suggestion for matching Frisco's boxcar
red? I use ScalecoatII paint. I tried a mix on Boxcar red #2 and
Oxide red, but it looks almost a little to orange to me.
Thanks in advance,
Brian Flynn


Re: coke -- a consumer product in 1950?

np328
 

Some others have put forward answers. If this duplicates others,
sorry.

Was Coke used residentially? From my father, yes. You threw a few
pieces of coke along with a good sized piece of anthracite into the
furnace. The coke by itself would go out. The anthracite with the
coke would burn all night long, and you could stay in bed until your
mother got you up for school in the morning.

Was Koppers a producer of coke? Other have answered that. It was
normally a good sized operation.

Go here <http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/> and plug these
Location numbers, MR2.9 SP3.1K p29, Collection III.44.97,
MR2.9 SP3.1K p30.
Then after you have entered that field, hit the "show listing
button".

These are all in St. Paul, MN. In this one, ( MR2.9 SP1m p174 )
the area under construction shows the footprint of the plant. The GN
runs along the lower part of the photo, the NP along the upper, and
that is the NP's Como Shops on the top of the photo.

Koppers also shipped quite a bit of the coke out in railcars from
this plant. As I might have stated prior, the type of car depended
on what the customer specified. Boxcar, Gon, or Hopper.


There are some other photos I came across that have yard views:
MR2.9 SP3.1M p225, and if that is too late for your era, try this,
HE6.7 p12.

Of course one always finds an odd photo that has nothing to do with
anything. . At least this is in color:
http://reflections.mndigital.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?
CISOROOT=/msn&CISOPTR=689&CISOBOX=1&REC=13

Sorry if these have to be cut and pasted onto the browser.

Jim Dick - St. Paul

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Is this a dealer that sells coke (for homes? business?)
or a producer of coke? (in which case those coal cars
would be arriving with ordinary coal I guess)
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=e67ae0d61d79f076_large
Tim O'Connor


Re: Pure Carbonic - DICX 204

lrkdbn
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 26, 2009, at 10:48 PM, Dave Nelson wrote:
Am looking for more information of the cars of the Pure Carbonic
company.
Were these cars entirely "custom" (on the outside) or might I
find
something
similar enough for anything in the HO scale market to use or
kitbash?
Opinions?

Any pointers to where I might find other car images would also be
most
welcome.
Use a Sunshine MDT 6000 and change the door hinges-I think Tichy
makes suitable hinges. Clover House has the DICX lettering though you
may have to play with the number.

Larry King






















Dave, DICX reporting marks were originally assigned to the
American
Dry Ice Corporation Refrigerator Line of New York, but in the
mid-1930s its cars, along with the reporting marks, were taken
over
by the Merchants Despatch Transportation Co. subsidiary of the New
York Central System, where the DICX fleet grew in size to about
250
cars by the early 1950s. Pure Carbonic, which was a division of
the
Air Reduction Co., Inc., leased its cars from MDT, but not all of
the
DICX were leased to Pure Carbonic; there were other dry ice
shippers. The photos I've seen show that all of the DICX cars of
that vintage appear to be conventional wood-sheathed refrigerator
cars which have been converted for dry ice loading by adding very
heavy insulation. A common feature was the application of extra-
strength strap door hinges owing to the added weight of the
insulation on the doors. I have photos of DICX 128, DICX 218, and
DICX 283 which I can scan and send to you off-list.

Richard Hendrickson





Re: coke

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., WaltGCox@... wrote:
I would very much doubt it. I remember bringing home a bag of
bituminous
coal from the steam era railroad track in my neighborhood. My mom
only used a
little of it and I don't think I have ever seen or smelled such a
noxious cloud
of smoke as we had in our kitchen that day.
Walt, there were some places that didn't sell anthracite. Was coke more
wide spread than we thought? Whoever mentioned that coke is a byproduct
of illuminating gas is right. Coke must have been produced at many
locations.

Cetainly though there must have been a lot of places where neither
anthracite nor locally produced coke was available.

I've seen bituminous coal refered to as steam coal in areas where
anthracite is used for home heating.

Ed


Re: Pure Carbonic - DICX 204

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 27, 2009, at 9:59 AM, Claus Schlund (HGM) wrote:
Hi Dave, Richard, and List Members,

The car in the image appears to have roof hatches.

Why would a car intended to be used for dry ice retain roof
hatches? I mean, dry ice maintains a colder temperature than you
can make using ice and salt alone...








The fact that DCIX cars had hatch covers doesn't mean they had ice
bunkers, Claus. It was common practice on refrigerator cars
converted into refrigerated box cars (I.e., insulated cars without
ice bunkers) to seal the hatch covers closed and remove the bunkers.
no reason why MDT could not have done the some thing in converting
conventional RS reefers into dry ice cars.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Drill Bits and MiniMate

Charles Hladik
 

And they always break off with just enough sticking out, that one cannot get
them out. Had a Cary shell that looked like it had a bunch of antennae
sticking out of it.
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 2/27/2009 6:46:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
krlpeters@... writes:




High carbon tool steel can actually be harder than HSS. The downside is that
it also more brittle, and easily loses that hardness when heated.

Carbide is harder than both and is also more brittle.

The biggest cause of drill and tap breakage in the small sizes modelers use
is misalignment <WBR>of the tool with the hole. Using a drill/tap guide, like
the one Micro Mart sells as a conversion for the NWSL Sensip will greatly
improve tool life, even in the soft materials we commonly use. I work as a
machinist, and while I rarely deal with these small sizes, I am well aware of
the factors involed.

It may not matter that much how long a drill will last, but don't these
small drills and taps ALWAYS break after the store is closed for the weekend?
Mine do!

Karl Peters.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Re: coke

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Mont;



Are you modeling any of those cool coke (and other) container cars the Monon
had that we saw great photos of in MainLine Modeler?



Elden Gatwood



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Mont
Switzer
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:06 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] coke



Bill and all,

I'm sure Bill is referring to Citizens Coke and Gas Utility in Indianapolis.
It was shut down over a year ago and is being dismantled as we speak.

CC&G coke was a good source of car loadings for the Monon and NKP in our era.
They also shipped tar and molten sulfur, both by products of the coke making
process. I was surprised to learn that a lot of the traffic on the Monon went
to smaller mills and foundaries all over the midwest.

I had incorrectly assumed that the loads always went to the large mills in
the Calumet Region.

Mont Switzer

--- On Fri, 2/27/09, william darnaby <WDarnaby@...
<mailto:WDarnaby%40worldnet.att.net> > wrote:

From: william darnaby <WDarnaby@...
<mailto:WDarnaby%40worldnet.att.net> >
Subject: Re: [STMFC] coke
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 10:30 AM

Indianapolis still has a coke gas production facility. Both the NKP and
Monon had specialty cars assigned to carry the coke, primarily to steel
mills. It now goes by truck.

Bill Darnaby


Re: Pure Carbonic - DICX 204

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Claus Schlund wrote:
Why would a car intended to be used for dry ice retain roof hatches? I mean, dry ice maintains a colder temperature than you can make using ice and salt alone...
The ice bunker hatches are certainly not in use; they are just from the car's former life. As you say, the cargo refrigerated itself.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: nice freight yard details

Nolan Hinshaw
 

On Feb 25, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

I'll bet not too many layouts have a guy sitting on
a chair next to the yard throat, ready to throw that
switch...

http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=63aa8efb7477cb32_large

It's a 1942 view of an SP yard -- note the three PRR
box cars on the far track, and the 50' single sheathed
box car.
*I* happened to notice that it's a puzzle switch the tender
is throwing.
--
Nolan Hinshaw, native Californian since 1944
Scenescent in the Outer Sunset since 1971


Re: coke

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

Bill and all,
 
I'm sure Bill is referring to Citizens Coke and Gas Utility in Indianapolis.  It was shut down over a year ago and is being dismantled as we speak.
 
CC&G coke was a good source of car loadings for the Monon and NKP in our era.  They also shipped tar and molten sulfur, both by products of the coke making process. I was surprised to learn that a lot of the traffic on the Monon went to smaller mills and foundaries all over the midwest. 
 
I had incorrectly assumed that the loads always went to the large mills in the Calumet Region.
 
Mont Switzer

--- On Fri, 2/27/09, william darnaby <WDarnaby@...> wrote:

From: william darnaby <WDarnaby@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] coke
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 10:30 AM






Indianapolis still has a coke gas production facility. Both the NKP and
Monon had specialty cars assigned to carry the coke, primarily to steel
mills. It now goes by truck.

Bill Darnaby



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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