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Re: 1932 ARA vs X29

Richard Hendrickson
 

Hello:
Cab someone explain the differences between the PRR X29 style boxcar and
the 1932 ARA design. Seaboard had the 1932 ARA design. I know they look
similiar but I think the ARA design is taller. Thanks!
Despite superficial similarities, the two were completely different in both
design and dimensions. The proposed (but never adopted) ARA standard steel
box car of 1924 was essentially a slightly revised Pennsy X29 (at the time
it was proposed, Pennsy people dominated the ARA's Car Construction
Committee). After this car was twice rejected by the mechanical
departments of the ARA's member railroads, a number of railroads had cars
built to the design (or some modification of it) anyway; I'm currently
working on an article which will describe and illustrate those X29 clones,
some of which had various types of proprietary roofs and Dreadnaught ends
instead of the flat riveted types that came off the PRR drawing boards.
The Pennsy went off in a huff, refused to participate in any further
efforts to design an ARA standard car, and ended up building ±30,OOO X29s
for its own use.

Ironically, the brunt of the effort to develop a standard steel box car
that the ARA member railroads would accept was then carried out by the
Pennsy's arch-enemy, the New York Central, and what became the 1932
standard car was the result. It had a much stronger underframe and
distinctive "notched" side sills which resulted from elevating the body
sills above the level of the floor and connecting the bolsters and
crossties to the body by means of tabs extending down below the sills.
This was done because both the X29s and the somewhat modified USRA standard
steel box cars built by the NYC in large numbers during the 1920s trapped
water at the bottom of the sides, causing the steel sheathing to rust out.

At the time the 1932 design was proposed for adoption, there was a great
deal of controversy over its height. Some major RRs wanted taller cars,
but that would have required some smaller lines to enlarge their lineside
clearances, involving in some cases rebuilding bridges and tunnels, and in
the depths of the economic depression this was not a popular idea.
Consequently, the 1932 ARA standard steel box car was only 9'4" high
inside. By 1936, however, a number of RRs were ordering cars of this
design with interior heights of up to 10'0", the lines that had restricted
clearances were essentially forced to enlarge them, and in 1937 a revised
version of the standard design was approved with an inside height of ten
feet.

Most of the cars built to the 1932 ARA specs had 4-4 Dreadnaught ends and
Murphy panel steel roofs, but there were numerous exceptions. CGW had them
built with corrugated ends, NS and NKP got them with Viking roofs, etc.
And the Seaboard and L&A ordered them with flat riveted ends and roof,
which made them look more like the Pennsy X29s than they actually were.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: PRR R-60 express reefer

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

such as a central corridor (where the doors are) with two seperate
refrigerated sections<
I too have the Railworks R-60 (nice model)<
Bruce,
As you know the model has windows on the doors. The one picture from
Steve Sandifer site seems to show the car with no windows, just inset panels
at the top of the doors. As it is a reefer can I assume it had no windows
or are they just really dirty?
Jon,

What's the URL of Steve's site? The car diagram from Waynor's (spelling?)
book has square windows in the doors. I think that there is a photo or two
of an R60 in Pennsy Power 3 as well, and as I recall, the windows were
present. Some may have been plated over, but I think dirt is more likely
the culprit. I'm also pretty sure that they never received porthole
windows.

I know, the concept of a reefer with windows is a bit odd...but that is
correct for the R-60! It led me to wonder why they were there? During
loading, you would get light through the open door - no need for windows -
or perhaps this allow light in from the closed door side?...did someone
ride there?

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
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__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
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Re: Tank Car Crazy

Richard Hendrickson
 

Warren Dickinson asks:

....Can anyone tell me if the following brands of gasoline during this
time went (or was transported) under another name:

Standard Oil of Indiana
Esso
Pure
Texaco
Texaco still had a large tank car fleet in the early 1950s operated for
them by General American under TCX reporting marks. Most of the cars used
to transport gasoline to wholesalers had aluminum tanks with black
billboard "Texaco." Standard of Indiana and Esso, being former members of
the Standard Oil monopoly, continued to contract with Union Tank Line for
rail shipments after the Standard monolith was broken up by the courts.
Pure Oil sold their tank car fleet to UTC in the mid-1930s and leased cars
from UTC after that date.

Mobil....I know is covered by the P2K 10K gal. tank car, but I'm not sure
if the scheme is correct for my time period.
the P2K paint scheme is correct for your era, as it is based one early
1950s photos.

Did Kanotex sell under another name to the public? I have never seen
this brand in any memorabilia, books, etc.
Kanotex was an abbreviated form of Kansas-Oklahoma-Texas and AFAIK those
states constituted most of their marketing area; though they may have
strayed a bit further afield than that, I don't think they shipped
petroleum products to destinations east of the Mississippi River.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Tank Car Crazy

ibs4421@...
 

STMer's,
Funny we should have all of these postings on the conductor's book regarding tank cars. I have been trying to assemble a respectable tank car fleet of the P2K kits. I have been trying to acquire as many of the black "plain-jane" cars as possible, mostly SHPX and GATX 'cause I figure those can be used for most any kind of loading/industry. (BTW, I am considering trying to model a portion of the L&N's "Memphis Line" circa '49-'50.)
Aside from all of the "plain-jane" types, a few privately owned gasoline/petroleum product-carrying cars won't hurt. Can anyone tell me if the following brands of gasoline during this time went (or was transported) under another name:

Standard Oil of Indiana
Esso
Pure
Texaco

A gentleman who I am in correspondence with tells me that he remembers these gas/oil brands being handled by a distributor along the line. (Yes, he thought that was odd too.) They also handled Mobil, which I know is covered by the P2K 10K gal. tank car, but I'm not sure if the scheme is correct for my time period.
Did Kanotex sell under another name to the public? I have never seen this brand in any memorabilia, books, etc.
Any help, advice, directions to a website, etc. would be most welcome on my end. Thank you!

Warren Dickinson
At the terminus of the E&GRR
Elkton, Kentucky


Re: PRR R-60 express reefer

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

John Miller asks:

I have just acquired a "Railworks Ltd" PRR R-60 express reefer. I
figured I could use it in a mail train or similar but would like some
information. Period of it's use and would it likely show up on a Santa Fe
mail train?
This is a partial crosspost, sorry if it has been read twice. It is a
freight car (reefer) and a passenger car of sorts (express).
John,

The R-60 reefer was a relatively rare bird - I don't have the exact number
on hand, but the class numbered around 30 when built (early 1900s). By the
transition era, only a few were left in service. It is an interesting car
as it had some unique features, such as a central corridor (where the doors
are) with two seperate refrigerated sections. A far more common sight
would have been the R-50 express reefer, which numbered in the thousands.
Hopefully, we will see a resin R-50 in the very near future (the scuttlebut
says so...).

As Richard noted, photos of PRR express reefers have documented travel all
over the continent, so the possibility does exist that an R-60 would show
up on the Santa Fe, however, the later in the steam era, the less likely,
and the R-60 was usually assigned to a specific service rather than roaming
where needed.

Having said all this, I too have the Railworks R-60 (nice model) and even
though I model PRR, that particular reefer will not show up too often on my
layout...even in 1944 its a bit of an oddball.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


1932 ARA vs X29

ThisIsR@...
 

Hello:
Cab someone explain the differences between the PRR X29 style boxcar and
the 1932 ARA design. Seaboard had the 1932 ARA design. I know they look
similiar but I think the ARA design is taller. Thanks!


More Tank Cars in the Frt Conductors Book

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Here are more tank cars that are in the UP Frt Conductors Book. Some of these are not common names. A couple of surprises to me are SP car 58403 and CDLX being west bound with juice. Others, more familiar with tank cars...like Richard...will have to tell us if there is anything unexpected here. There are still Sinclair and SHPX cars to check out. So far, there has been 62 known tank cars in the 35 trains.

1. California Despatch Line CDLX 904 EB WINE 0 3-7-49
2. Best Foods BFX 1160 EB OIL 3 3-14-49
3. Champlin Refining C.[?] HHEX 200 WB Oil 4 3-15-49
4. Southern Pacific 58403 WB F.Oil 3-17-49
5. Railway Tank Car Sevice RCSX 814 WB F. Oil 5 3-17-49
6.Conoco CONX 183 WB Oil 5 3-17-49
7. Union Tank Car Co [?] UTL 3862 WB Oil Ogden 3-19-49
8.Crystal Car Line CCLX 697 WB Syrup 6 3-19-49
9. Standard Brands SBIX 2125 WB MT 5 3-19-49
10. Southern Pacific TNO 51215 WB Oil 5 3-19-49 This car's No. does not match '53 ORER
11.Vendome Tank Car Co VENX 255 WB D. Fuel Pocatello 3-19-49
12. Gen American [ Swift ] SWTX 8681 EB Tallow 0 4-3-49
13.California Despatch CDLX 180 EB Oil 0 4-9-49
14. Union Tank UTL 57612 EB Oil 0 4-9-49
15. Union Tank UTL 43942 EB Chem 0 4-9-49
16. Union Tank UTL 50217 EB MT McPherson, KS 4-14-49
17. Union Tank UTL 52299 EB MT " 4-20-49
18. Union Tank UTL 58092 EB MT " 4-20-49
19. Union Tank UTL 56614 EB MT " 4-20-49
20. Union Tank UTL 51073 EB MT " "
21. Cal Despatch CDLX 1066 WB Juice LA-4 4-21-49

Mike Brock


Re: PRR R-60 express reefer

Richard Hendrickson
 

I have just acquired a "Railworks Ltd" PRR R-60 express reefer. I
figured I could use it in a mail train or similar but would like some
information. Period of it's use and would it likely show up on a Santa Fe
mail train?
One of the SPFs will have to give you the details on the R-60s, John, but
Pennsy express reefers were common in the consists of the Fast Mail and
Grand Canyon. See, for example, Duke & Kistler p. 108; the second car
behind the locomotive is a steel PRR express reefer.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: PRR R-60 express reefer

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

I have just acquired a "Railworks Ltd" PRR R-60 express reefer. I
figured I could use it in a mail train or similar but would like some
information. Period of it's use and would it likely show up on a Santa Fe
mail train?
This is a partial crosspost, sorry if it has been read twice. It is a
freight car (reefer) and a passenger car of sorts (express).

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: appropriate colour for NP wood reefers

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 02:51 PM 3/4/01 -0500, you wrote:

I am trying to verify the appropriate colour for the NP's wood reefers, as I
approach finishing a couple Norwest's kits for same. The instructions say a
50/50 mix of reefer orange and reefers yellow, while the Microscale
instruction's indicate reefer orange.
For a new steel car, the color was definitely closer to a yellow-orange color.
However, I've seen pictures of these same cars after 15 years of fading that
look distinctly yellow. Even Todd Sullivan, who knows something about the NP
and who published an article about NP reefers in Prototype Modeler many years
ago, wasn't completely clear on the appropriate colors. I've never heard of
any specific "change" in the standard color, however, so perhaps one can use
a photo of a steel car as a reference point for a wood car.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


GATX Tank Cars in the Frt Conductors Book

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Here is a compilation of the 41 GATX tank cars found in the 35 trains in Fraley's Frt Conductor train Book:

I am troubled by the destination codes...particularly for eastbounds. When a number is given...like "3", and it represents a yard track...where might it be?

Other comments: Locomotives covered the distance from Laramie to Rawlins without change [ 117 miles ]. Engines were almost exclusively class 4000 [ Big Boys ] or 3900 Challengers. Everyone's friend, 3985, pulled the train on 4-5-49. The only exception to the 4000s and 3900s was a 3 unit diesel on the last train listed. Conductor Fraley, probably a gentleman of taste, likely retired thereafter.
Car Number Direction Contents Destination Date

MT= empty, EB =eastbound, WB=westbound, KC=Kansas City, numbers 0-4 may be track numbers somewhere.

36971 WB MT ? 3-6-49

991 WB MT SP-1 3-6-49

91536 EB Wine 0 3-7-49

1198 EB Wine 0 3-7-49

1023 EB Wine 0 3-7-49

915 EB Wine 3 3-9-49

66311 EB Wine 0 3-9-49

1199 EB Wine 0 3-9-49

33525 EB Wine 0 3-9-49

65669 WB MT POCATELLO 3-11-49

65584 EB MT KC 3-18-49

65645 EB MT KC 3-18-49

4365 EB MT KC 3-18-49

28548 EB MT KC 3-18-49

15178 WB OIL Track 6 at Ogden 3-19-49

25776 WB OIL Green River 3-19-49

50442 WB OIL " " 3-19-49

20257 WB OIL Track 1 at Ogden 4-3-49

5196 EB ? KC 4-3-49 Different train from above

90008 WB MT Track 4 at Ogden 4-7-49

11955 EB MT KC 4-7-49 Different train from above

65584 EB MT KC Note, EB on 4-7-49, EB on 3-18-49

33340 EB WINE 0 4-9-49

33844 EB Wine 0 4-9-49

33514 EB Wine KC 4-9-49

62500 EB Wine 0 4-9-49

50962 EB Oil 3 4-9-49

2220 EB MT 0 4-9-49

3589 EB MT KC 4-14-49

67177 WB MT SP-1 4-15-49

61816 EB ASPHALT 0 4-16-49

407 EB MT SP-1 4-17-49

Now here we have a problem...or a curiosity. Would there be an SP-1 track somewhere in the east? This is definitely an eastbound train.

4492 EB Oil 4 4-17-49

33873 EB Wine 0 "

441 EB Wine 0 "

65741 EB Wine KC "

1187 EB Wine 0 "

906 EB Wine 0 "

65614 EB MT KC "

19324 EB MT KC 4-20-49

3646 EB MT KC "

68923 WB Syrup LA-4 4-21-49

Mike Brock


Re: UP Stealth Frt Trains

Richard Hendrickson
 

...Given that the engine carried no train number and Fraley didn't put one
in his book, was the UP running a stealth frt train operation?
Yeah, and those funny things on either side of the smoke box on UP steam
locos weren't really smoke deflectors, they were electronic reflectors
designed to confuse enemy radar.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: appropriate colour for NP wood reefers

Richard Hendrickson
 

Bill Welch wrote:

I am trying to verify the appropriate colour for the NP's wood reefers, as
I approach finishing a couple Norwest's kits for same. The instructions
say a 50/50 mix of reefer orange and reefers yellow, while the Microscale
instruction's indicate reefer orange. Would anyone on the list have a more
authoritative opinion?
Microscale's wrong on this one, Bill - definitely NOT reefer orange.
Follow Brian's instructions on this one; he did very thorough research on
the NP cars.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


appropriate colour for NP wood reefers

Bill Welch <bwelch@...>
 

I am trying to verify the appropriate colour for the NP's wood reefers, as I approach finishing a couple Norwest's kits for same. The instructions say a 50/50 mix of reefer orange and reefers yellow, while the Microscale instruction's indicate reefer orange. Would anyone on the list have a more authoritative opinion?


Bill 'Welch <bwelch@uucf.org>
Associate Minister, Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Fairfax
P.O. Box 130 Oakton VA 22124 www.uucf.org
Telephone 703 281-4230 Fax 703 281-5399


2-56 screws

Bill Welch <bwelch@...>
 

Living now in a suburban area, I initially had trouble finding a convenient way to buy several hundred 2-56 x 1/4 inch screws for couplers and trucks. In case this information could be of help to any of you, I did find a supplier in Baltimore that was able to ship an order to me. The minimum order was 800 screws, which is only enough for two hundred cars. The price is $3.00 per hundred, and there was a shipping and handling charge of 5.02. The total bill was $29.02, which they invoiced me for. The company is:

A & A Bolt & Screw Co.
1110 Batavia Farm Road
P. O. Box 72120
Baltimore, MD 21237-0120
410-687-8831
1-800-638-4540
FAX 410-687-0071


Bill 'Welch <bwelch@uucf.org>
Associate Minister, Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Fairfax
P.O. Box 130 Oakton VA 22124 www.uucf.org
Telephone 703 281-4230 Fax 703 281-5399


UP Stealth Frt Trains

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

I note in the UP Frt Conductor's Train Book that, while there is a location on the form for train number and section, conductor Fraley never put anything in those areas. Now, I've never seen a photo of a UP frt train in Wyoming with other than Xnnnn on the number board, but I am also aware that at least some UP frt trains were either named or numbered. Given that the engine carried no train number and Fraley didn't put one in his book, was the UP running a stealth frt train operation?

Mike Brock


Re: Wine

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hendrickson [mailto:rhendrickson@opendoor.com]
The PHPX car is a puzzlement. I can't found those reporting
marks (or anything close) in any of my ORERs. Assuming the book was
handwritten, is there any chance that the entry might actually represent
different initials?
I could not find PHPX either so I double checked the handwritten entry and
concluded PHPX is indeed the best guess as to what the 4 letters are. I've
scanned the entry and have posted it to the shared files area. The letters
P, R, and F are nearby for comparison. Lemme know what you think.

Dave Nelson


Re: USQX?

ibs4421@...
 

It's obviously pointless to comment on Warren's (facetious, I hope) explanation,


Yes Richard, my bad sense of humor at work.

Warren


Wartime flat car load

Earl Tuson
 

FWIW...

While perusing a B&M Bulletin, I saw a photo which included what I felt were
two interesting war time flat car loads, and a potential accompanying car. As
such items appear to be "popular," I figured I would share it here. The place
is Fitchburg, MA, the date- 5/30/43, the train and loco- MP-8
(Mechanicville-Portland) w/ 4-8-2 4116. The two flats of interest, separated
by a double door box car (looks to be 50',) each have 4 single-axle, flat bed
trailers stacked 2 and 2, with pairs of beds mated, all wheels towards one end.
<IF> you could fit 8 cabs into a 50' XA, that could explain the cut. There
are two hoppers on the head pin (one being a B&M quad,) then the truck loads,
and everything else visible in the train is oil.

Earl Tuson

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Re: Wine

Richard Hendrickson
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brock [mailto:brockm@brevard.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 7:06 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] UP H-70-1..it was Richard's fault


As I was beginning analysis of the wine carrying cars in the UP
Frt Conductor's Book, [snip]
Mike, are you seeing blocks of wine loads in your book too? I found one in
mine too, same train, eastbound, all these cars close together or adjacent:

road carnr type contents
WFEX 65729 REEFER Wine
PHPX 6356 Wine
GATX 33834 TANK Wine
GATX 991 TANK Wine
NADX 1583 Wine
SFRD 36427 REEFER Wine
PFE 45866 REEFER Wine
GATX 33436 TANK Wine
GATX 66187 TANK Wine
GATX 33818 TANK Wine
PFE 30267 REEFER Wine
The NADX car was a 40' refrigerated box car (ex-reefer with the ice bunkers
removed). The PHPX car is a puzzlement. I can't found those reporting
marks (or anything close) in any of my ORERs. Assuming the book was
handwritten, is there any chance that the entry might actually represent
different initials?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

188981 - 189000 of 189789