Date   

Re: The Steam Era

Bill Vaughn
 

My firemans date on the ATSF was 1979.  Quite a bit after steam was gone.
 
Bill

--- On Wed, 4/29/09, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: The Steam Era
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 2:08 PM









How about using the date when railroads finally reached an
agreement to retire all "fireman" jobs on locomotives as a
suitable ending date for the age of steam?

Tim O'Connor

I can't disagree. I've been interested in model railroading for close to fifty years now, and after initially wanting to model what I was seeing, then trying out several different historical periods, I've finally settled on modeling a couple years before I was born. The key, I think, is to progress beyond the "jee whiz" excitement of discovering new things on the other side of town, and becoming interested in discovering things that are far removed by time, rather than distance.

I've just finished up pulling together a bunch of data on some Soo Line cabooses, and it never ceases to amaze me how long things stayed the same in the railroad industry. The cars in question were built in 1909; had steel underframes installed during the twenties; were covered with plywood in the sixties, and FINALLY had their archbar trucks replaced with various cast steel trucks about 1967 ­ '69, just a few years before retirement.… Throughout all of it, they retained the same form and function... a brakeman from 1909 would still recognize his caboose, know what it did, and know where to attach it to the train.

We are now only forty or so years after these cars were retired, and there are no more cabooses... or brakemen. Train crews don't start and quit at terminals any more, but rather ride a crew van to whatever part of the layout the train was left when the last crew got tired of playing with it. It's a whole different world out there, and for a number of reasons the year 1960, give or take just a few years, marks the division between Then and Now.

Dennis


Re: The Steam Era (Was: NYC 4 bay hopper lives too)

William Bryk <wmbryk@...>
 

I think that the forum should stick to the steam era as presently defined.
My tastes are aesthetic, not economic: I understand why the world changed at
that time; I just prefer the look of steam locomotives and steam era rolling
stock and the way of life they represented. If I were interested in modern
times, I'd belong to another site.

Regards,
William Bryk


On 4/29/09, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@... <STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Bruce Smith
<smithbf@...> wrote:
Tom,

I think you are overreacting. For the purposes of this list, I have
yet to be born... and yet I model 1944, some 19 years prior to that
momentus day <VBG>. Based on my experience with modelers of my age,
there is no dimunition of interest in times before 1960....
I can't disagree. I've been interested in model railroading for close to
fifty years now, and after initially wanting to model what I was seeing,
then trying out several different historical periods, I've finally settled
on modeling a couple years before I was born. The key, I think, is to
progress beyond the "jee whiz" excitement of discovering new things on the
other side of town, and becoming interested in discovering things that are
far removed by time, rather than distance.

I've just finished up pulling together a bunch of data on some Soo Line
cabooses, and it never ceases to amaze me how long things stayed the same in
the railroad industry. The cars in question were built in 1909; had steel
underframes installed during the twenties; were covered with plywood in the
sixties, and FINALLY had their archbar trucks replaced with various cast
steel trucks about 1967 '69, just a few years before retirement.
Throughout all of it, they retained the same form and function... a brakeman
from 1909 would still recognize his caboose, know what it did, and know
where to attach it to the train.

We are now only forty or so years after these cars were retired, and there
are no more cabooses... or brakemen. Train crews don't start and quit at
terminals any more, but rather ride a crew van to whatever part of the
layout the train was left when the last crew got tired of playing with it.
It's a whole different world out there, and for a number of reasons the year
1960, give or take just a few years, marks the division between Then and
Now.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: The Steam Era

Tim O'Connor
 

How about using the date when railroads finally reached an
agreement to retire all "fireman" jobs on locomotives as a
suitable ending date for the age of steam?

Tim O'Connor

I can't disagree. I've been interested in model railroading for close to fifty years now, and after initially wanting to model what I was seeing, then trying out several different historical periods, I've finally settled on modeling a couple years before I was born. The key, I think, is to progress beyond the "jee whiz" excitement of discovering new things on the other side of town, and becoming interested in discovering things that are far removed by time, rather than distance.

I've just finished up pulling together a bunch of data on some Soo Line cabooses, and it never ceases to amaze me how long things stayed the same in the railroad industry. The cars in question were built in 1909; had steel underframes installed during the twenties; were covered with plywood in the sixties, and FINALLY had their archbar trucks replaced with various cast steel trucks about 1967 � '69, just a few years before retirement.� Throughout all of it, they retained the same form and function... a brakeman from 1909 would still recognize his caboose, know what it did, and know where to attach it to the train.

We are now only forty or so years after these cars were retired, and there are no more cabooses... or brakemen. Train crews don't start and quit at terminals any more, but rather ride a crew van to whatever part of the layout the train was left when the last crew got tired of playing with it. It's a whole different world out there, and for a number of reasons the year 1960, give or take just a few years, marks the division between Then and Now.

Dennis


1932 ARA MP

George Hollwedel
 

I'm looking at pages 158-159 in Ted's book which shows the MP cars in the re-paint "Route of the Eagles" scheme. The shot on page 158 and the NOT&M on 159 appear to have tack boards car body color while in the other two shots the boards appear black, as in the "as delivered" scheme. A nyone have any insight as which way they wer, or which might be more common if they were both ways?

Thanks for any help, George

Prototype N Scale Models (TM)
by George Hollwedel
310 Loma Verde St
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883
www.micro-trains.com/sr-0902-hollwedelUP.php
www.micro-trains.com/hollwedel.php
www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollSPTNO40BoxN.htm
www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollSP40BoxN.htm
www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollSP50SDBoxN.htm
www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollATSFExpressN.htm


Re: The Steam Era (Was: NYC 4 bay hopper lives too)

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Tom,

I think you are overreacting. For the purposes of this list, I have
yet to be born... and yet I model 1944, some 19 years prior to that
momentus day <VBG>. Based on my experience with modelers of my age,
there is no dimunition of interest in times before 1960....
I can't disagree. I've been interested in model railroading for close to fifty years now, and after initially wanting to model what I was seeing, then trying out several different historical periods, I've finally settled on modeling a couple years before I was born. The key, I think, is to progress beyond the "jee whiz" excitement of discovering new things on the other side of town, and becoming interested in discovering things that are far removed by time, rather than distance.

I've just finished up pulling together a bunch of data on some Soo Line cabooses, and it never ceases to amaze me how long things stayed the same in the railroad industry. The cars in question were built in 1909; had steel underframes installed during the twenties; were covered with plywood in the sixties, and FINALLY had their archbar trucks replaced with various cast steel trucks about 1967 – '69, just a few years before retirement.… Throughout all of it, they retained the same form and function... a brakeman from 1909 would still recognize his caboose, know what it did, and know where to attach it to the train.

We are now only forty or so years after these cars were retired, and there are no more cabooses... or brakemen. Train crews don't start and quit at terminals any more, but rather ride a crew van to whatever part of the layout the train was left when the last crew got tired of playing with it. It's a whole different world out there, and for a number of reasons the year 1960, give or take just a few years, marks the division between Then and Now.

Dennis


Re: Most Numberous Box & Auto Cars

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Here's an Ian Wilson case study from July, 1943, at a 4.5 million bushel grain elevator on Gerogian Bay (Lake Huron). Cars were loaded there and hauled out by CN exclusively. The reason that this is mentioned is that any statistical freight car distribution based theory does not work here--

http://www.canadianbranchline.com/grain1.htm

Here's an interesting piece from that article--

"Examining the 173 CN boxcars against the roster totals of the time period, it is interesting to note that although more than 21% of the home road fleet was comprised of relatively new steel cars, not one of them shows up carrying wheat from the Secord. Of the 173 CN boxcars, there were 94 five-foot door Fowler cars (57 expected based upon pro-rating the equipment totals). There were 23 six-foot door Fowlers, nearly matching the expected 22. Another 20 cars are the type represented in HO scale by the Accurail boxcar with wooden ends, somewhat higher than the expected 16. The four cars matching the Accurail car with steel ends coincide with the expected number. Similarly, there were 31 of the 40-foot, seven-panel steel-frame boxcar represented in HO scale by kits from Funaro & Camerlengo, Sylvan and Kaslo against 30 of that type expected. All things being equal, we expected to see 37 steel boxcars, but there were none, save a single 470,000-series rebuild (Sylvan in HO scale)."

Admittedly, this was at a grain elevator that cars may have been in assigned service. But US roads' cars were use, too--

"Now, let's take a look at the 39 foreign cars which found themselves loading wheat from the Secord at the Tiffin Elevator in July 1943. It is not surprising to see boxcars from roads which connect with the CNR in the Great Lakes area, such as C&O (one car), DL&W (one), Erie (three), GTW (three), L&NE (two), NYC (two), PRR (three), PM (one) and SOU (one). From the New England area, there was the B&M (one). A multitude of roads with Midwestern connections also weighed in, such as AT&SF, CB&Q, CSt.PM&O, M&St.L and SOO (one each), C&NW, IC and MILW (two each) and MP (three). Northwestern roads GN (four) and NP (one) were also represented, as was Southwestern road D&RGW (one). The CASO, an Eastern Canadian road with a small roster, fielded a car.

With the appearance of cars from smaller and/or distant roads such as the CASO, L&NE, PM, D&RGW, B&M and M&St.L, I think it is safe to say that any North American boxcar is fair game for grain loading. Note that not one CPR car showed up in this study."

Food for thought--

Steve Lucas.


Re: GATX 1638 Lives!

cn528 <jscagle@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Of course, you can increase
that by having the car delivered one session, held another, moved to
another dealer the 3rd, held the 4th, and moved off the layout the
5th. But, you still only need ONE car for this <G>.

Regards
Bruce
OH THE HUMANITY. Only ONE !!! Shame on you Bruce. That's just blasphemy. He can have as many two dome tank cars as he wants, cause I want to sell them to him.

And as for the frangible discs, Mr. Brown is correct, this is for non-flamable liquids. But the vents can be changed. You might want to find a car# other than 1638, and one that no one has taken a pic of too, so the prototype police won't give you a ticket.

Only one car !!!... gotta eat! as Bill S. would say, groceries are good.

jon
sc&f


Re: NYC 4 bay hopper lives too and let me introduce myself

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

AJ:

More to the point, which models are you using, which prototype road are they for, and for what time period? If you can tell us more, somebody here can probably tell you which brake wheel is correct for your car. Keep in mind, the parts in your kit may not be right, and might have to be replaced with after-market parts. It sounds like you might have a Roundhouse car. Some of these came with brake wheels that were oversized, and to call the design fanciful would be a very great compliment.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

AJ wrote:


I do have one other question. I do have one other question. I have been putting together some transition era 70 ton coal hoppers. The kit has both the spoked (like a wagon wheel) and dished brake wheel. What was the time frame where the spoked wheel went out and the newer more modern brake wheel came in.

A.J. Gemperline


Re: NYC 4 bay hopper lives too and let me introduce myself

AJ
 

Do not be confused with the NYC reporting marks on ex Conrail equipment. I model both modern era and steam era and I am still a huge fan of Conrail.

When NS and CSXT destroyed Conrail they split up the assets roughly 58% NS 42% CSXT. To aid in identifying the assets, CSXT and NS determined that Conrail still owned the rights to NYC and PRR reporting marks. CSXT identified their assets with NYC reporting marks, NS used the PRR reporting marks. Some freight cars and all of the locomotives for NS got the PRR reporting marks. CSXT only put the reporting marks on the rolling stock, not locomotives. This saved time and effort for both railroads. So it is not right to assume that a NYC marked car you see today, was ever owned by ran under NYC reporting marks.

I am just over 50 years old and grew up in N&W town. I don't remember too much about the steam era. I do have one memory when I was real little of seeing my aunt run out and bring her clean white sheets off the clothes line as she said there was a train coming. That is about all I recall.

I do have one other question. I do have one other question. I have been putting together some transition era 70 ton coal hoppers. The kit has both the spoked (like a wagon wheel) and dished brake wheel. What was the time frame where the spoked wheel went out and the newer more modern brake wheel came in.

A.J. Gemperline


Re: NYC 4 bay hopper lives too

SUVCWORR@...
 

NS used PRR to identify its ex-conrail locomotives because the combined assets disrtict jointly owned by NS and CSX continued to use Conrail rpt marks on its locomotives.?? The CR reporting marks for freight cars went to NS.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: rwitt_2000 <rwitt_2000@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:00 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYC 4 bay hopper lives too



Walt Lankenau wrote:

When Conrail was split up, CSX used the NYC reporting marks to
identify its ex-CR cars. I doubt that many were actually ex-NYC.
And to finish the thought ... NS used the "PRR" reporting marks to
identify its ex-CR freight cars.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: The Steam Era (Was: NYC 4 bay hopper lives too)

Bruce Smith
 

On Apr 29, 2009, at 10:37 AM, Tom Madden wrote:
That summer of 1950 my 14-year old self found nothing of interest in a 70-year look-back. Today's young modelers - whether 14, 24 or 34 - looking back 70 years find themselves smack in the middle of our era of interest. Should we expect them to find it interesting? These are people who lament the loss of Conrail, and consider it a Fallen Flag worthy of their attention.

Maybe I'm overreacting (again), but as I watch our 1960 cut-off date recede further and further into the past I fear that the Steam Era, and those of us who love it, will become ignored anachronisms for today's modelers, like the 1880's did for me.
Tom,

I think you are overreacting. For the purposes of this list, I have yet to be born... and yet I model 1944, some 19 years prior to that momentus day <VBG>. Based on my experience with modelers of my age, there is no dimunition of interest in times before 1960. Yes, today's 18 year olds lust after the toasters they see out on the road, but when they grow up and realize that not everyone gets to build a monster layout, and that trains prior to 1960 actually stopped and did things between terminals, then they too get hooked on the steam era. I for one see no reason to panic and absolutely no reason to change the time frame of this list or to start calling it the "Sort of the Steam Era Freight Car List"... and Brianna, now almost 12 agrees!

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D., Professor of Pathobiology
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
Auburn University, AL 36849-5525
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2
************************************************************************ *********
"Evolution is a fact, get used to it"


Re: Most Numberous Box & Auto Cars

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

Severasl thoughts:

This exercise reminds me of Kalmbach's quest to find the all American average diesel, which they decided was B&O GP38 3802. This was not an unbiased analysis, remember the main unspoken criterion was that they had to have a photo of the winner on file, a major bias.

Back to freight cars ...

You are applying rigorous objective statistical technique to a largely subjective problem. How does one capture the pseudo-random feel of American freight trains? There have been several discussions on this list on how to do this by the numbers.

You are seeking an unbiased methodology for a local population of freight cars (your train on your layout depicting a prototype era and localuty) where the biases reign supreme.


Examples:

- Traffic on the Lehigh and New England (cement and aggragates) is going to be totally different from the C&NW main line accross Iowa (meat, produce, lumber as bridge traffic, and originated grains).

- B&O did not compete well for transcontinental produce, but did participate as a destination for retail shipments. So their reefer strings would be quite varied, not solid PFE/ATSF/WFE strings found on NYC, PRR, Erie, and NKP.

- Car usage restrictions on N&W, VGN, L&N, and C&EI open hoppers forbade their reloading off line, they had to return home empty unless permission was granted. So they did not mix up with home road hoppers returning to home road mines, even on railroads renouned for swiping hoppers for their own use (B&O).

- some common car types were kept at home, like VGN, N&W, and C&IM jumbo coal gondolas, where source and destination put these cars to good use, and the home road exclusively enjoyed all the efficiencies.

- Railroads equip themselves for their on-line customers. Car types not kept busy are disposed of.

- A railroad's most friendly interchange connections are well represented with those roads' cars.

- Lumber was often cut and shipped before it was sold, then brokered and diverted enroute. Hence eastbounds from the Pacific Northwest would meander anywhere, and every local lumberyard bought softwoods shipped in cars from northwest roads (NP, GN, SP, MilW, and others). Empty westbounds would take specific prescribed short routes home, definitiely NOT the way they came.

- Transportation cost is a significant part of the total delivered cost, and some commodities are not worth shipping across country. Cement in California will be produced locally and shipped western cars. Not anythjing from Pennsylvania in L&NE covered hopper cars.


To my way of thinking, Ted Culotta provides an easier way. His RMC essential freight car series provides much ammunition for developing a varied freight train look with common cars from sizeable railroads with plenty of cars and recurring reasons to ship nationwide.


Bottom line: it's the traffic and operational details of specific routes that determine a train's consist and look, not the entire freight car population.

--- In STMFC@..., Mike Aufderheide <mononinmonon@...> wrote:

All,
 
I’ve been working over the last few months going through Larry Ostrech’s 1950 excel ORER with the goal of finding out which individual box and auto car types are the most numerous.  For ease of discussion I’m calling these cars the “base fleet�.  The base fleet are cars in the national pool that show up at a given location simply because they are the most numerous.  The size of each modeler’s base fleet will be different, for me it is 200 boxcars.  These 200 cars won’t be the only boxcars on my layout.  Other cars of specific types and roads will run because of interchanges, industries, the season modeled, etc.  This specific group of cars I can account for through prototype paperwork. It's the anonymous cars that I want to determine. 
 
My 200 car base fleet means that any car in the national pool of 714,902 cars more numerous than 3,575 cars or ½% of the national fleet is automatically included.  It became apparent that too few cars made up this number in themselves to be counted. Tony Thompson had suggested using the percentage owned by individual railroad instead;  starting from a percentage of the national fleet that each railroad owned, and then taking that proportion as broken down in that road’s most numerous types.  His suggestion has worked well and it seems to be representative.  (Looking down the ORER there are few, if any smaller roads that would have car types making up the necessary 1/2%.)
 
Of course the base fleet number will vary with each modeler’s needs.  As a modeler’s base fleet expands so does the number of cars, but also the variety of cars and the number of railroads represented.  Other base fleet sizes require the following minimum number of prototype cars (714,902 cars/desired base fleet):
 
100 car base fleet needs 7,149 prototype cars for each model
200 cars base fleet needs 3,575 prototype cars for each model
300 cars base fleet needs 2,385 prototype cars for each model
400 cars base fleet needs 1,787 prototype cars for each model
500 cars base fleet needs 1,430 prototype cars for each model
etc. etc. etc…..
 
I’m happy to share my annotated excel file with anyone who wants to expand the search past what I’ve done.  I'll post it to the group once I have corrections/input from everyone.
 
In order to make this exercise useful, I have needed to generalize the characteristics of these cars.  For instance, I have not been concerned with the type of trucks, doors, running boards, or ends, but only a general, simplified description.  Generalization is not encouraged on this list, so I ask your forbearance.
 
In the 1950 ORER I found cars with similar:
 
Key dimensions (I.H., I.L., door size, door number)
Type of construction(if listed): steel, ss, ds
Type of car: box, auto, or vented
 
Variations of a few inches are allowed in this, but this might be too much as I’ve discovered in some cases.  For example knowing what is and is not a rebuild is difficult from the ORER.
 
There are other variables like SS, DS, Steel and length.  We know what these percentages are of the national fleet, so some corrective measures will be needed to represent the true percentages of these cars.  This will be added to the base fleet number and will take a bit of doing...something for the future.
 
I’ll post the results of this by letter of the alphabet with the hope that those of you more in-the-know can help correct my mistakes.  I will list available models if I can.
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: The Steam Era (Was: NYC 4 bay hopper lives too)

sparachuk <sparachuk@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Tom Madden" <tgmadden@...> wrote:

That summer of 1950 my 14-year old self found nothing of interest in a 70-year look-back. Today's young modelers - whether 14, 24 or 34 - looking back 70 years find themselves smack in the middle of our era of interest. Should we expect them to find it interesting? These are people who lament the loss of Conrail, and consider it a Fallen Flag worthy of their attention.

Maybe I'm overreacting (again), but as I watch our 1960 cut-off date recede further and further into the past I fear that the Steam Era, and those of us who love it, will become ignored anachronisms for today's modelers, like the 1880's did for me.

Tom Madden
Tom: Maybe we have to accept that we steam era modellers are the modern version of the ships-in-bottles guys. Where did they all go? I was born in 1950 in London, Ontario and I remember the steam era well because London was big railroad town in those days. My modelling cut-off date is the demise of K style brakes because I like them. I don't have a better reason. We might have to accept that we are indeed anachronisms, although I don't mind myself.

That being said, this year I organised what we call the Prototype Modellers' Meet in Toronto and I was thrilled that some younger participants felt welcome to bring their "modern" models along. They said they're going to tell all their friends and we'll have more of them next year. Their modelling was first rate stuff and everyone seemed to enjoy themselves. Of course, I couldn't help teasing them about their prototypes being forty years old already.(1970)

That might be the future of model building, old guys accepting that modern models are interesting and young guys accepting that old guys aren't a bunch of prejudiced old poops. Model building is itself a dying art in the age of the computer and the mash-up. Good modelling is rare and it deserves credit, whatever its era. But for me, it's the steam era to the end. I really can't imagine what's going to happen to my models when I'm gone but I can't help laughing, imagining what the grandkids will think about grandpa's crazy trains.

Stephan Parachuk
Toronto


"B" Railroads Base Fleet

Michael Aufderheide
 

All,
 
And now the letter B, lonely with only the B&O!  Again for reference you would need a 300 car fleet before adding the B&M (2,695 cars), a 400 car fleet to add BAR (2,018 cars), and a 700 car fleet to add B&A (1,017 cars) and BLE (987 cars).
 
B&O, 28,260 cars:
 
For my 200 car base fleet I need 8 B&O cars.
 
1 & 2 & 3 & 4[!!!]. 40 ft steel, 6 ft door, 8’-7” IH, Class M-26 to M26-E, car # series 265000, 267000, 271500, 272500, 278000, total 13,720 cars, Red Caboose & Speedwitch KC102.
 
5. 40 ft steel, 6 ft door, 10’-0 IH, Class M-53, car # series 380000, 385000, total 2,931cars, Sunshine 42.1 to 3 & Funaro 6932.
 
6. 40 ft DS, 6 ft door, 8’-1” IH, Class M-15B to J, car # series 81021, 83002, 173003, 174003, 174500, 175003, 176000, 179249, 184000, total 2,162 cars, Westerfield 5000
 
7.  40 ft steel, 7 ft door, 10’-0” IH, Class M-55 & M55E, car # series 466000, 467000, total 1,498 cars, Branchline?
 
8.  40 ft steel, 6 ft door, 10’-0 IH, Class M-15K car # series 370000, 371000, total 1,199 cars, Sunshine 42.5 & Funaro 7025.
 
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: "A" Railroads Base Fleet

Michael Aufderheide
 

Charlie,
 
I can see the point of your post and feel the pain of Mike's flogged horse, but hopefully the information is useful.  It is, afterall....what it is; simply the most numerous cars.  If you believe there is any merit to the Nelson-Gilbert idea then this is the starting point.  It would not have occured to me to have the (7) X29s or (2) New Haven cars that the numbers call for.  As I mentioned in the first post, this is just the starting point.  My total number of boxcars will be 250-275 with 200 of those being "base fleet" cars.
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide
Modeling the Monon

--- On Wed, 4/29/09, Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

From: Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "A" Railroads Base Fleet
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 10:46 AM








Not to pooh-pooh the investigation. This line of research is still worthwhile. I guess my point is not to take it as a formula for determining what you have to have on your railroad.
It would be preferred, however, to the all-too-common Model Railroad attitude "I don't need any XYZ cars because I model the ABC"!!! I believe that Manufacturers still see quite a bit of regional bias in sales... controlled by the Hobby Shops but also driven by the consumers... even in more sophiscated lines beyond the trainset set.
I think "casting" the actors on your pike is important... . just like I don't believe in forcing universal scripts on the actors. The Car Card Pocket / Waybill system, when implemented in its full form, takes the Interchange Rules somewhat beyond what happened in the real world. Some roads and some cars were better equipped to play certain parts.
You could often tell what train you were looking at by the complexion of its consist. That did not happen randomly.
But ANY research into Freight Cars is a Good Thing!
Charlie Vlk

Charlie Vlk notes:

Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards for the
road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are interested in,
in your era, would be more instructive than a mathematical model.... if
you can find such documents.
Not to mention countless messages pertaining to this issue, numerous panel
discussions [ including one held last Jan during Prototype Rails at Cocoa
Beach ], endless opinions...includin g...well. ..that of yours truly, a huge
number of photo references and various conflicting data regarding the
subject.

Mike Brock

.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: "Periodic Light-Weighing" was Reweigh cycles

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 4/28/2009 12:48:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
thompson@... writes:

These exact rules (from Rule 11) are in the April 1950 ORER too,
so apply throughout the 1950s.




Car Service Rule 11 and Interchange Rule 30 were synonymous. The AAR's
Operating-Transportation Division modified Rule 11 in late 1948 to the
reweigh intervals listed by Kurt. The Mechanical Division's Arbitration
Committee matched the change to Rule 30, Section (B) which became effective on
January 1, 1949.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI
**************Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and
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Re: "A" Railroads Base Fleet

Steve SANDIFER
 

I have an interesting (to me) study posted at
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Climax/Climax.htm
concerning the little town of Climax, KS, population 100, in 1945. The track plan is simple: main, house track, elevator track. Over a 10 month period I have records of 246 cars being spotted in that town - reporting marks, car numbers, contents, destination, etc.
This is an ATSF branch.

47% were ATSF cars. The balance came from 40 different lines. The C&O, MILW, B&O, and PRR were the most common in order, providing 8-10 cars each. Western lines were sparsely represented (only 1 UP box).
Auto box and regular boxcars made up 147 of the cars, or 62%. Gondolas were next with 34 cars, 30 of which were ATSF. Coal was delivered in 4 of the off line gondolas. Stock cars made up 30 of the deliveries, 29 of which were ATSF. 6 ATSF reefers and 18 cars in MOW service make up the balance.

The full list is at http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Climax/Cars.htm

There is a sense in which I could gather these 246 cars and call them my "Base Fleet," but I realize that this list would not be repeated if I had a similar catalogue for 1946 or 1947. The fleet is heavily influenced by one industry, an alfalfa mill that was not even located in this town. Down the road at Moline, where a limestone quarry could put out 100 cars a day, the mix would be very different. My large city of Emporia, KS, would see just about anything that traveled the ATSF main line (that's why I chose it).

So I think this discussion is very interesting, intriguing, but not real practical.

----------------------------------------------------------------
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417
Personal: http://www.geocities.com/stevesandifer2000/index
Church: http://www.swcentral.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Vlk
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "A" Railroads Base Fleet





Not to pooh-pooh the investigation. This line of research is still worthwhile. I guess my point is not to take it as a formula for determining what you have to have on your railroad.
It would be preferred, however, to the all-too-common Model Railroad attitude "I don't need any XYZ cars because I model the ABC"!!! I believe that Manufacturers still see quite a bit of regional bias in sales... controlled by the Hobby Shops but also driven by the consumers... even in more sophiscated lines beyond the trainset set.
I think "casting" the actors on your pike is important.... just like I don't believe in forcing universal scripts on the actors. The Car Card Pocket / Waybill system, when implemented in its full form, takes the Interchange Rules somewhat beyond what happened in the real world. Some roads and some cars were better equipped to play certain parts.
You could often tell what train you were looking at by the complexion of its consist. That did not happen randomly.
But ANY research into Freight Cars is a Good Thing!
Charlie Vlk

Charlie Vlk notes:

> Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards for the
> road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are interested in,
> in your era, would be more instructive than a mathematical model.... if
> you can find such documents.

Not to mention countless messages pertaining to this issue, numerous panel
discussions [ including one held last Jan during Prototype Rails at Cocoa
Beach ], endless opinions...including...well...that of yours truly, a huge
number of photo references and various conflicting data regarding the
subject.

Mike Brock

.


Re: Early covered hopper cars for grain and similar commodities

Tim O'Connor
 

The Cor Cor car, old as the tooling is, represents the 3219cft 3 bay.
This car is taller and wider than the 2893... James Kinkaid posted
both photos and plans of the ends of these cars on the MFCL.

As I recall, Jim discovered that the PS 3215/3219 cars differed
almost entirely in WIDTH. The height difference was very slight.
The old AHM (not Con Cor) tooling has numerous problems, not least
of which is its crudeness! The Walthers car is only very slightly
better, which I'm sure is why Athearn has outsold them 10 to 1...
Hopefully Athearn will do the second phase with hat section posts
at the corners.

The prototype PS 2893/3219 cars were not often used for grain.
At the time they were built, grain was usually shipped in 40 foot
box cars. That didn't change much until 90 and 100 ton cars
with longitudinal hatches appeared in the early 1960's.

Tim O'Connor


Re: The Steam Era (Was: NYC 4 bay hopper lives too)

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Tom Madden" <tgmadden@...> wrote:

Yes, this is the Steam Era Freight Car List. But it's not the Steam Locomotive List. I have no interest in ACI labels, removed running boards, shortened ladders and the Penn Central, but multitudes of freight cars from "our era" served well beyond 1960. I should think we could fudge the end date forward a few years to encompass the period when Steam Era Freight Cars survived and served in close to their pre-1960 condition.
The problem with extending the era is you don't just get discussions about the older cars that were still in service, heck, we get that now to a certain extent. What you'll get is discussion of whole new classes of equipment that never ran during the steam era; Centerflow hoppers, 86' piggyback cars, the beginnings of open auto racks to be mounted on those cars… you lose focus.

I inhabit several discussion groups that pertain to operations and are basically all-era groups. Very often someone will ask a not well worded question and get a whole range of answers that mix the concepts of timetable, CTC, and track warrant operations, and it takes a dozen messages to even sort out which pertain to his era of interest. We see the beginnings of that here. How many times in the last few years have we had people simply assume that covered hoppers were ALWAYS used for grain, and coal always had to be loaded in cross hoppers?

I agree that modern era railfans now know little about the look, texture, and feel of steam era railroading, but that doesn't mean we need to give in to non-ear specific mediocrity. People who want to discuss the removal of roof running boards and the discontinuance of plain bearing trucks in interchange are certainly welcome to have that discussion… someplace else. This should remain the place for discussing the transition from wood to steel running boards, and the retirement of archbar trucks.

Dennis


Re: "A" Railroads Base Fleet

Charlie Vlk
 

Not to pooh-pooh the investigation. This line of research is still worthwhile. I guess my point is not to take it as a formula for determining what you have to have on your railroad.
It would be preferred, however, to the all-too-common Model Railroad attitude "I don't need any XYZ cars because I model the ABC"!!! I believe that Manufacturers still see quite a bit of regional bias in sales... controlled by the Hobby Shops but also driven by the consumers... even in more sophiscated lines beyond the trainset set.
I think "casting" the actors on your pike is important.... just like I don't believe in forcing universal scripts on the actors. The Car Card Pocket / Waybill system, when implemented in its full form, takes the Interchange Rules somewhat beyond what happened in the real world. Some roads and some cars were better equipped to play certain parts.
You could often tell what train you were looking at by the complexion of its consist. That did not happen randomly.
But ANY research into Freight Cars is a Good Thing!
Charlie Vlk




Charlie Vlk notes:

> Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards for the
> road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are interested in,
> in your era, would be more instructive than a mathematical model.... if
> you can find such documents.

Not to mention countless messages pertaining to this issue, numerous panel
discussions [ including one held last Jan during Prototype Rails at Cocoa
Beach ], endless opinions...including...well...that of yours truly, a huge
number of photo references and various conflicting data regarding the
subject.

Mike Brock

.

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