Date   

Re: Re UTLX type V tanks

Jack Burgess
 

Sorry, I missed the 10K reference...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: Re UTLX type V tanks

lrkdbn
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

I'm not sure about one in Wisconsin but the Transportation Museum in St.
Louis has one:

http://transportmuseumassociation.org/freightcars.html

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com
Jack, the type V in St Louis is one of the 6K cars. The point I was trying to make is that there were larger ones.
Larry King


B&O M-26 tackboard locations

James Mischke <jmischke@...>
 

I have been building my Red Caboose B&O red Timesaver slogan
M-26b kit this weekend. I like variety, so I started looking at
tackboard positions.

In the boxcar world, industry standards declared tackboards to
be mounted in a high position on the ends and boxcar doors until
1954. These positions appear to be accessible to someone
standing on a four foot high loading platform.

After 1954, the standard changed to low positions on the ends
and boxcars doors. It looks as if the low position is
accessable from someone standing on the ground. This change is
immediately apparent on newly built boxcars: high before 1954,
low afterwards.

Standards notwithstanding, after 1954, the photo record shows
shopped cars had their tackboards applied or remaining in an
inconsistent manner.

I have 120 photos of B&O M-26 boxcars of all subclasses, most
well after 1954, and NOT ONE has an end tackboard in the low
position. Several images have door tackboards in a low position.

So my 1964 era (1925-1930 built) model M-26 fleet will have
mostly high tackboards on doors, all tackboards high on the ends.

Also, future Keyser Car Shops/B&OHS Red Caboose M-26 projects
will have high tackboards throughout, for any era.

On the recent red TimeSaver slogan M-26 project, we specified
high tackboard on ends, low on doors, (1) for variety, (2) to
depict prototype indifference to standards, and (3) supported by
the primary photos we were working from. Hardware cannot be
mixed from car to car on a ready-to-run product; with custom
lettering runs, the car numbers can change but all must have
identical hardware.

If anyone can find some more low tackboard views, especially on
the end, I'd like to know about them.


Re: Re UTLX type V tanks

Jack Burgess
 

Larry King wrote:
There is a railway museum in (I think) Wisconsin that has a 10K type V.
I wish I could be more specific but I know I saw pictures of it and it
was definitely a type V- no center sill.
I'm not sure about one in Wisconsin but the Transportation Museum in St.
Louis has one:

http://transportmuseumassociation.org/freightcars.html

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re UTLX type V tanks

lrkdbn
 

There is a railway museum in (I think) Wisconsin that has a 10K type V.
I wish I could be more specific but I know I saw pictures of it and it
was definitly a type V- no center sill.
Larry King


Re: RTR vs. kits

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Elden--

I model a Canadian grain-hauling line in Eastern Ontario, circa 1956. I am fortunate in having a fair bit of my STMFC requirements satisfied by either commercial RTR stuff (Kadee PS-1's come to mind) or resin kits for that Santa Fe Bx-12 raised roof, NYC USRA steel, and Lehigh Valley "wrong-way" boxcars. A Canadian distributor has brought out some nice stuff as well, such as "slab-side" CN covered hoppers and CN 40' steel 10' ih boxcars with NSC ends.

But if I were to wait for every car that I need for my pike to come out in RTR, I may as well wait for hell to freeze over. To be able to kitbash and scratchbuild where necessary is an essential skill set for a modeller in as specialised an area as I model. And I suspect that the same applies to many on this list.

I recently finished an HO Imperial Oil (Esso's Canadian division) tank car resin-bashed from a NorWest resin kit for a CN car. I'm very pleased with how it turned out, and it even won a Merit Award at a regional last month! Another is being bashed into a McColl-Frontenac tank car (Texaco's Canadian operation). The best that I'd ever do in RTR for either of these cars is a Chinese-made stand-in from Proto. So, I know that a lot of resin and kit-bashing awaits me yet. Am I having fun? Absolutely.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Group;

I was pretty surprised over the last few years, hearing from small and large
manufacturers, and the buying public, as part of our "serving" both groups,
what all agree is going on in the hobby.

Plastic manufacturers seem to agree that kits are dead, and they are not
going to waste any more time thinking about it.

Resin manufacturers, on the other hand (and for the most part), seem to
continue to sell lots of kits, which all agree the overwhelming majority of
which will never get built.

A break-out discussion I also found interesting was the agreement that
perhaps 200-300 people out there are actually building those kits. I was
astonished, but the resin guys know far more people, and are far better
tapped into this network than I.

The biggest thing that surprises me now days, though, is the "sit back and
wait for someone else to do it for me" attitude that the vast majority of MR
hobbyists now display. You should have heard some of the things folks said
to me at some of the recent meets! I know numerous folks in other hobbies
that build stuff; LOTS of stuff. What I hear from our own, nowdays, is "why
can't you get XYZ to do a RTR X29B in plastic?" I would say from these
dialogues, that a lot of people in this hobby are becoming simple collectors,
not builders.

Thank goodness for the prototype modelers!

Elden Gatwood
Chair, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee


Re: erroneous captions/RTR vs. kits

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
I have no contact with national NMRA folks, but the Boston "Hub" regional NMRA is not only RPM friendly but for many years has given talks and local meets that feature regional prototypes. And I also found scores of wonderful prototype models at an NMRA regional in Austin TX almost 20 years ago.

To paraphrase Tip O'Neil, "all modeling is local".
Well said, Tim. I meant to single out NMRA brass at the national level. Many local regions have "seen the light" and embrace prototype modeling, including my own Pacific Coast Region. Some parts of my former region, MId-Central Region, do the same, and doubtless there are others. Why this cannot penetrate the Board of Trustees or serving national officers is beyond me.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: erroneous captions/RTR vs. kits

Tim O'Connor
 

it's important to note that most RPM meets have no contests.
Martin Lofton offers some awards at Naperville but they are
informal.

At 5/27/2009 01:15 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
I'm not sticking up entirely for the NMRA and their contests but you have to realize there is a certain formality in them which includes paperwork. The system was designed so a non knowledgeable judge could make judgement on what the modeler said he did. BTW each judge only judges one catagory, not the whole model. I never enrolled in many things in life without some formalities including paperwork. If that is too hard to grasp, it's probably best to avoid the contests and all in life that require proper paperwork.

Jerry Glow


Re: erroneous captions/RTR vs. kits

jerryglow2
 

I'm not sticking up entirely for the NMRA and their contests but you have to realize there is a certain formality in them which includes paperwork. The system was designed so a non knowledgeable judge could make judgement on what the modeler said he did. BTW each judge only judges one catagory, not the whole model. I never enrolled in many things in life without some formalities including paperwork. If that is too hard to grasp, it's probably best to avoid the contests and all in life that require proper paperwork.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "up4479" <up4479@...> wrote:

IMO, its always been that way and it can get worse. I plugged into RPM with Joe Delia at the 1986 NMRA convention in Boston. I entered a kitbashed caboose in the NMRA model contest. They trashed my model because of the paperwork I submitted. Little did I know but the decision maker for a major award was a supporter of RPM. I came in last in category in the NMRA contest but won the UTU Brass Lantern Award! I was encouraged to take my model to the RPM room (where there were a lot more models) and got a blue ribbon in the popular vote contest! Everyone was supportive and enthusiastic. I met really nice people that I still keep in contact with 23 years later. I took more interest in the steam era after looking over Richard H's ATSF models. The rest is history. (I go to NMRA nationals for the RPM guys!)
But there's more to the story. The NMRA told me to put on a suit, show up at the banquet and be prepared for photos during the awards.
My wife and I go home for my suit and show up at the banquet with Joe D in tow. They had me arrive at the beginning and told me that it would be about 3 hours before they got to me and that we couldn't eat because we didn't buy tickets with our registration. We couldn't even buy our way in.
We left for a nice Italian dinner at one of our favorite spots. The photos were done another day.
So I was a bad boy because I didn't understand the paperwork requirements and took first place at the RPM room and the UTU rep decided I had the best caboose to represent their organization despite a poor showing in the contest.
I won't ever enter a NMRA contest and I won't attain NMRA master model railroader (though I could qualify) because IMO they want peopoe to fit their mold. That's OK! Its a big hobby. They can have fun their way and we can have fun our way.
I have to go do some steam era model work now.
Steve Solombrino


Re: Constantin Tank Car Line

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi,

The only thing I can contribute on the topic is there is NO photo of this car in the Westerfield ACF builder's photo CD.

Perhaps you might consider scanning the photo and posting an image in a public location?

Keeping the S. P. & S. Rwy. alive in Santa Rosa, California
David, we are practically neighbors - I live in San Francisco.

- Claus Schlund

-----Original Message-----
From: David Turner [mailto:spsrwyfan@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:58 PM
To: 'Steam Era Freight Cars'
Subject: [STMFC] Constantin Tank Car Line

Hello,

I have a copy of a photo of tank car E.C.X. 188 lettered for �Constantin
Refining Company, Tulsa, Okla.� It appears to be the builders photo
(Neg. 170141-A-1) for a car built by ACF under Lot Number 7749, dated
August 13th, 1915. Based upon the photographic evidence, I would
describe the car as an ACF Type 11, MCB Class II, 8000 gallons and
80,000 pounds capacity, equipped with 40 ton arch bar trucks and �K�
type brakes, and built of five vertical courses with single row rivets.

Similar looking cars are shown on pages 91 and 92 of Kaminski, Edward
S., TANK CARS: American Car and Foundry Company, 1865 to 1955.

In Epstein, Ralph C., GATX: A History of the General American
Transportation Corporation, 1898-1948, North River Press, 1948, on page
93, the growth of GATX included the absorption of the �Constantine Tank
Line of Oklahoma� in 1927 with its 1,061 tank cars.

Apparently, Eugene Constantin owned both the Refining Company and the
Tank Line from the early 1910s until 1927.

Any other information about either Constantin Refining Co. or Constantin
Tank Line and its tank cars would be appreciated.


Cheers,

David Turner
Keeping the S. P. & S. Rwy. alive in Santa Rosa, California


Re: erroneous captions/RTR vs. kits

Charlie Vlk
 

The RPC is silent on that, but unless the 1928 X29 copied or turned out to be the same as the 1925 NYC interpretation of the 1923 ARA design; it must be the 1924 X29
The 100 NYC cars are not detailed in the design characteristics dimensions table in the front but do appear in the 1923 ARA summary at the rear of RPC 18 and do show the same truck center and striker distance as the 1924 X29 vs. being different from the 1923 ARA.
Mr. Wider would know which car he meant and how "identical" they were...the X29s are not detailed by year except for 1924.
Charlie Vlk


Re: erroneous captions/RTR vs. kits

Tim O'Connor
 

Sides identical to the X29? Which X29? The 1924 or the 1928?

Tim O'Connor

Brian-
Yes, I've got the RPC library too, but for the purposes of this list, even though the sides were identical to the X29, other major dimensions varied according to the table included in that issue so calling them X29s isn't strictly kosher. They were 1923 ARA proposed standard design cars of NYC Lot 504-B.....the length over strikers and truck centers varied between them and there were no doubt appliance differences as well.
Charlie Vlk


Re: RTR vs. kits

Tim O'Connor
 

Resin manufacturers, on the other hand (and for the most part), seem to
continue to sell lots of kits, which all agree the overwhelming majority of
which will never get built.

A break-out discussion I also found interesting was the agreement that
perhaps 200-300 people out there are actually building those kits. I was
astonished, but the resin guys know far more people, and are far better
tapped into this network than I.
Elden

I think if you multiplied that number by 20 you'd still underestimate
the number of people who have built resin kits. Not everyone builds like
Bill Darnaby (wasn't he building a kit a day at one time?) but I'm quite
sure there are many who build but don't blow their horn about it...

Tim


Re: erroneous captions/RTR vs. kits

up4479
 

And most
of the NMRA brass still cannot figure out how to speak politely to RPM
types.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
IMO, its always been that way and it can get worse. I plugged into RPM with Joe Delia at the 1986 NMRA convention in Boston. I entered a kitbashed caboose in the NMRA model contest. They trashed my model because of the paperwork I submitted. Little did I know but the decision maker for a major award was a supporter of RPM. I came in last in category in the NMRA contest but won the UTU Brass Lantern Award! I was encouraged to take my model to the RPM room (where there were a lot more models) and got a blue ribbon in the popular vote contest! Everyone was supportive and enthusiastic. I met really nice people that I still keep in contact with 23 years later. I took more interest in the steam era after looking over Richard H's ATSF models. The rest is history. (I go to NMRA nationals for the RPM guys!)
But there's more to the story. The NMRA told me to put on a suit, show up at the banquet and be prepared for photos during the awards.
My wife and I go home for my suit and show up at the banquet with Joe D in tow. They had me arrive at the beginning and told me that it would be about 3 hours before they got to me and that we couldn't eat because we didn't buy tickets with our registration. We couldn't even buy our way in.
We left for a nice Italian dinner at one of our favorite spots. The photos were done another day.
So I was a bad boy because I didn't understand the paperwork requirements and took first place at the RPM room and the UTU rep decided I had the best caboose to represent their organization despite a poor showing in the contest.
I won't ever enter a NMRA contest and I won't attain NMRA master model railroader (though I could qualify) because IMO they want peopoe to fit their mold. That's OK! Its a big hobby. They can have fun their way and we can have fun our way.
I have to go do some steam era model work now.
Steve Solombrino


Re: [P_and_LE] P&LE Pipe Gons / Integral Cover Gons

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Dave, Allen;

Sorry, I do not know of any source for those drawings, but I have a friend
that upgraded one of the breadbox cars, and found that the basic car was
pretty accurate. He just upgraded the details and added piping and such. He
did a set of decals, that I unfortunately never got a copy of. He also did a
B&LE car. Both turned out very nice.

I have also been stymied on several P&LE gon projects by the lack of decals.
You can use the Champ set, but it is not accurate for dimensional and weight
data (for the cars I wanted to do), so you may have to splice. No, it does
not contain any special data, like the "PIPE..." or container info, which is
what put my project on hold. I guess I could piece it together, but I have
less aggravating things to do.

The LifeLike Proto2000 Greenville gon is accurate for the P&LE's orders, with
the exception that the majority of P&LE cars had ladders instead of grabs on
the sides, and most P&LE gons had steel floors (8000-8499, 9000-10499,
10500-10999, 11000-11499, 12000-12999, 13000-13999), which you can see in the
photos on RPCyc and the P&LE gon book by Jack Polaritz. Series 40000-40999,
43000-43499 had wood floors. I cannot remember right now if 41000-41999 were
the nailable steel-floored cars, but of that series, 41091 and others had
"racks" for coil steel. I fabricated a steel floor from .005" sheet and
pounce wheeled the rivets (it's not like the floor is going to be that
critical as far as rivets go), and laminated it to the "wood" floor. The
P&LE nailable steel flooring cars you can simulate by dry-brushing steel over
a painted floor using the floor that comes with the kit. The spacing of the
"boards" is similar to the wood floor. 43000-43499 all had blocking and
steel covers for bar steel; 43000-43104 had bulkheads; 43250-43269 did not,
but also had cushioned underframes. 43500-43999 also had blocking and steel
covers, but set up for coil loading.

P&LE also had several groups of USRA steel gons, which Westerfield did one of
(the flat drop end cars), that also contains very nice decals for the early
scheme. I built one of these and it turned out very nice. Unfortunately, he
did not do the later, and more common, drop end with the reinforcement panel
at the bottom. I would have liked that car, too, but Al told me he just got
tired of doing those cars and never finished that one.

Those two types of gons dominated the P&LE gon fleet until the mid-late 60's,
when they started ordering new ones, and got some from Despatch Shops. The
tall bulkhead end cars are part of these later groups, although there were
some earlier conversions they did on earlier cars.

The 65' gons included series 16000-16499 and 49000-49499. I do not know of
any kit that matches these cars.

There was a group of Greenvilles (13165, 13211, 13511, 13650, 13878) that got
fitted for Youngstown coke containers, that I built, but have no decals to
finish. I used the Walthers coke containers, but do not have the small P&LE
lettering needed to finish them.

I have not checked out the Modeler's Choice decals, but plan to order some to
see how usable they are.

Elden Gatwood


I would be interested in the answer to Dave's original questions.

P&LE ? Gons ? Sounds very ON topic to me !

May we post directly to the group site about this?

THANKS!

Allen Smithee
California, U.S.A.


I've seen a few nice photos of P&LE bulkhead gons on this
group. I'd like to model some of these, covered gons and perform some heavy
modificaitons to the AHM / Bachman Integral Cover Gons to make them look more
realistic and prototypical. Are there any diagrams floating around out there
that show how the underframes and bulkheads were fabricated? Sizes and
locations of structural members? Also, doesn't seem like there's too many
good decals out there for P&LE gondolas. Any idea who has correct white
lettering for the mentioned gons, including "CHUSHION UNDERFRAME" and "PIPE
LOADING ONLY"?

Thanks for any information.

Dave


Re: RTR vs. kits

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Group;

I was pretty surprised over the last few years, hearing from small and large
manufacturers, and the buying public, as part of our "serving" both groups,
what all agree is going on in the hobby.

Plastic manufacturers seem to agree that kits are dead, and they are not
going to waste any more time thinking about it.

Resin manufacturers, on the other hand (and for the most part), seem to
continue to sell lots of kits, which all agree the overwhelming majority of
which will never get built.

A break-out discussion I also found interesting was the agreement that
perhaps 200-300 people out there are actually building those kits. I was
astonished, but the resin guys know far more people, and are far better
tapped into this network than I.

The biggest thing that surprises me now days, though, is the "sit back and
wait for someone else to do it for me" attitude that the vast majority of MR
hobbyists now display. You should have heard some of the things folks said
to me at some of the recent meets! I know numerous folks in other hobbies
that build stuff; LOTS of stuff. What I hear from our own, nowdays, is "why
can't you get XYZ to do a RTR X29B in plastic?" I would say from these
dialogues, that a lot of people in this hobby are becoming simple collectors,
not builders.

Thank goodness for the prototype modelers!

Elden Gatwood
Chair, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee


Re: erroneous captions/RTR vs. kits

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony T wrote

I agree too. There is no more telling indictment of the NMRA
than the turnout of models at RPM meets all over the country. And most
of the NMRA brass still cannot figure out how to speak politely to RPM
types.
I have no contact with national NMRA folks, but the Boston "Hub"
regional NMRA is not only RPM friendly but for many years has given
talks and local meets that feature regional prototypes. And I also
found scores of wonderful prototype models at an NMRA regional in
Austin TX almost 20 years ago.

To paraphrase Tip O'Neil, "all modeling is local".

As for RTR vs kits, I think Kadee has the answer: an RTR model
that can be turned into a kit in about 5 minutes!

Tim O'Connor


Re: erroneous captions/RTR vs. kits

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Kurt,

If you are a tank modeler, are you familiar with the U.S. ARMY ORDNANCE MUSEUM, MUSEUM GUIDE & REFERENCE CD? This thing has photos of tanks and other heavy metal stuff preserved at Aberdeen, including some German, Italian and Japanese WWII pieces. These are the real deal, not models.

If interested, I can send you the order address.

I am not a tankist, and don't know much about the images on the disk (I'm into medieval bows and swords). My sweetie, who works for the Army, bought this disk as a gift when she went there for a seminar.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Kurt Laughlin wrote:

. . . The Internet has helped greatly - fantastically - with research. I remember waiting for the twice monthly armor magazine to arrive and writing letters - and waiting. In contrast, yesterday afternoon I got wind of a heretofore "unknown" tank in upstate NY. Last night I emailed a guy - from a website forum - and asked he would be interested in stopping by to take some pics. Today I got an answer that he's going that way (to a hobby shop!) later this week and will take pix and email them. Previously that would eat up about three months span, I recon.

KL


Re: erroneous captions/RTR vs. kits

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jerry Michels wrote (replying to Charlie Vlk):
The Prototype Modelers movement far exceeds NMRA contest participation of years past and the level of craftsmanship exhibited by modelers of all ages tells me that we are in the Golden Age of Model Railroading no matter what area you are interested in
Amen to that Charlie!
I agree too. There is no more telling indictment of the NMRA than the turnout of models at RPM meets all over the country. And most of the NMRA brass still cannot figure out how to speak politely to RPM types.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Constantin Tank Car Line

David Turner
 

Hello,

I have a copy of a photo of tank car E.C.X. 188 lettered for �Constantin
Refining Company, Tulsa, Okla.� It appears to be the builders photo
(Neg. 170141-A-1) for a car built by ACF under Lot Number 7749, dated
August 13th, 1915. Based upon the photographic evidence, I would
describe the car as an ACF Type 11, MCB Class II, 8000 gallons and
80,000 pounds capacity, equipped with 40 ton arch bar trucks and �K�
type brakes, and built of five vertical courses with single row rivets.

Similar looking cars are shown on pages 91 and 92 of Kaminski, Edward
S., TANK CARS: American Car and Foundry Company, 1865 to 1955.

In Epstein, Ralph C., GATX: A History of the General American
Transportation Corporation, 1898-1948, North River Press, 1948, on page
93, the growth of GATX included the absorption of the �Constantine Tank
Line of Oklahoma� in 1927 with its 1,061 tank cars.

Apparently, Eugene Constantin owned both the Refining Company and the
Tank Line from the early 1910s until 1927.

Any other information about either Constantin Refining Co. or Constantin
Tank Line and its tank cars would be appreciated.


Cheers,

David Turner
Keeping the S. P. & S. Rwy. alive in Santa Rosa, California

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