Date   

Re: Boxcar Identification 101

Shawn Beckert
 

Bill Daniels wrote:

What you are seeing is due to the fact that when
the car was rebuilt, the old car was narrower
than the new box. As a result, the "gussets" were
added to support the new sides.
http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/misc-f/fddm15008ajs.jpg

Let me float a theory here: Ft.D.D.M.& S. 15008 was
originally a single-sheathed car, maybe with steel
ends, maybe not. When the car was rebuilt in 1935,
the new steel sides were simply hung on the old
bracing. Since that put them outside the dimensions
of the underframe, the gussets were need to support
the weight of the new construction. The truck on the
left (Andrews?) was probably original equipment, the
truck on the right replaced a worn-out one.

Do I get a gold star?

Shawn Beckert


Re: Boxcar Identification 101

Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Shawn,

What you are seeing is due to the fact that when the
car was rebuilt, the old car was narrower than the new
box. As a result, the "gussets" were addd to suppor
the new sides. So, this is pretty much an indication
of a rebuilt car. The heavy fishbelly underframe was
reused due to it's being overdesigned for it's
original use. And as you noticed, these cars were not
built this way.

Anybody notice the two different trucks?

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ
--- "Beckert, Shawn" <shawn.beckert@disney.com> wrote:
Fellow Listers

When a boxcar has an indented sidesill with braces
or
"gussets", as in the case of this car, is that an
automatic indication of a rebuilt car? Obviously
this
car was, because it lists "blt" and "reblt" dates
next
to each other, in addition to a rather heavy
centersill,
but was this *always* the case? No steam-era cars
were
actually built new this way, correct?

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/misc-f/fddm15008ajs.jpg

Shawn Beckert


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Re: Boxcar Identification 101

Peter Reinhold <paintplustrains@...>
 

And a choice of trucks!!

Pete Reinhold

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [SMTP:shawn.beckert@disney.com]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 5:06 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Boxcar Identification 101

Fellow Listers

When a boxcar has an indented sidesill with braces or
"gussets", as in the case of this car, is that an
automatic indication of a rebuilt car? Obviously this
car was, because it lists "blt" and "reblt" dates next
to each other, in addition to a rather heavy centersill,
but was this *always* the case? No steam-era cars were
actually built new this way, correct?

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/misc-f/fddm15008ajs.jpg

Shawn Beckert



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Boxcar Identification 101

Shawn Beckert
 

Fellow Listers

When a boxcar has an indented sidesill with braces or
"gussets", as in the case of this car, is that an
automatic indication of a rebuilt car? Obviously this
car was, because it lists "blt" and "reblt" dates next
to each other, in addition to a rather heavy centersill,
but was this *always* the case? No steam-era cars were
actually built new this way, correct?

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/misc-f/fddm15008ajs.jpg

Shawn Beckert


Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

Richard Hendrickson
 

Eric Hiser writes:

Mike Brock provided a good overview of UP history on the adoption of hoppers
versus a more general service gondola (and a gentle reminder that the end of
GS gons is after 1960 :)) Any help out there on when SP or ATSF picked up
any 3-bay hoppers during the steam period, or did they essentially remain
with GS until post-1960? I am trying to get a sense of when bayed hoppers
might begin to appear.....
I'm a bit late getting around to commenting on this topic, having had a
very busy weekend, and I'm surprised (and, frankly, a bit frustrated) that
no one on the list has bothered to consult the highly detailed (and readily
available - still in print) Santa Fe 1906-1991 freight car roster compiled
by Larry Occhiello and published by the Santa Fe Railway Historical and
Modeling Society, which quickly provides the requested information. There
seems to be a kind of chronic reluctance on the part of many internet users
to employ printed sources - i.e., books. You guys have heard of books,
n'est-ce pas?

A quick look at Occhiello would have told you that the Santa Fe didn't
begin to acquire cross hoppers in significant numbers until after WW II.
Prior to 1948, the only such cars on the Santa Fe roster were classes Ga-21
(3 bay, AC&F '29, 75 cars), Ga-24 (4 bay, Ralston '29, 75 cars), Ga-43 (3
bay, AC&F 1936, 50 cars), Ga-54 (2 bay, GATC '41, 200 cars), and Ga-60 and
Ga-62 (2 bay war emergency composite, PSCM & GATC, '43, 400 cars). That
doesn't amount to much compared to the thousands of Caswell gons that were
employed in coal and other bulk mineral service. And FWIW, I've never seen
any evidence that the several classes of Rodger Hart Selective ballast cars
which were purchased starting in 1940 were ever used for anything but
ballast rock. If it happened at all, it was very uncommon.

From 1948-1959 the ATSF acquired a growing fleet of 3 bay 70 ton cross
hoppers of AAR standard design (classes Ga-66, Ga-72, Ga-79, Ga-86, Ga-100,
and Ga-109).
But even in the 1950s, GS gondolas greatly outnumbered hoppers.

It's been pointed out before, and apparently needs repitition, that coal
traffic on the western RRs tended to be seasonal, and hoppers are useless
for any other purpose than the one for which they were built (unlike GS
gons, which can be loaded with almost anything that can be carried in an
open top car). In addition, elevated unloading facilities for hopper cars
were all but non-existent in the west (whereas GS gons could be, and often
were, unloaded to either side at ground level). IIRC, some contributor to
this discussion suggested that the western RRs were backward in not having
larger hopper fleets, an observation which monumentally misses the point.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Earth Moving Equipment models as flat car loads

ian clasper <ian@...>
 

Hi Guy

AHM imported the Roco Minitank range. I am wondering if the two Roco
scrapers that I have (a 4 wheel unit and a 6 wheel semi) originate from the
same period and are the same models as you mention. If so, the next problem
would be back dating the model to its 1953 configuration from its 1960s
styling. My copy of the 1952 loading diagram book (MD-6) shows both styles
of scraper.

Ian Clasper

----- Original Message -----
From: <guycwilber@aol.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Earth Moving Equipment models as flat car loads


In a message dated 5/20/02 4:45:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ggg9y@virginia.edu writes:

<< IHC also offers what appears to be a better quality a pan scraper and a
road grader. Though they lack the detail of better models, they could be
improved >>

Garth,

The IHC models were originally introduced by AHM in 1964. These were a
welcome addition to the cast metal Matchbox and Dinky Toy type equipment
of
the day. At that time they were a rarity, a half-decent HO model of heavy
equipment in plastic. The line also included a D-8, a front end loader,
back
hoe and a couple other pieces. The four wheel scraper was offered alone,
it
could be converted to a six wheel scraper with the addition of the four
wheel
tractor which is the best replica of the group. I have heard that the
dies
for the bulk of the series were destroyed...I have searched for the D-8s
at
numerous train shows, but have yet to find one ever.

The scraper(s), grader, and bulldozer were patterned after Caterpillar
equipment. I think at that time (1964) Cat had dropped the DW-20 and
DW-21
designation for scrapers, but maybe not...eventually, self propelled
scrapers
would be numbered in the 600 series as they still are today.

All of these can be made into some pretty accurate models if one chooses
to
give them some attention. Numerous books on vintage equipment are a great
source along with the McGraw-Hill periodicals on construction methods and
equipment.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada


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Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

Kevin Slark <MoffatRoad@...>
 

The D&RGW had 200 34 ft, two bay composite hoppers,
built in 1899-1900 by Pullman for the Rio Grande
Western. However, all of these cars were scrapped or
in MOW service by 1948, and they a better part of
their lives hauling coal from the mines around Canon
City, Colorado to Colorado Fuel & Iron in Pueblo and
US Steel in Geneva, Utah. Occasionally a sting of them
would be seen on the WP or Rock Island's Choctaw
Route, and there is even record of some as far south
and east as Birmingham, Alabama! However, the GS gon
prevailed on the D&RGW until 1965 when the 100 ton
hoppers started to arrive, and some old Rio Grande GS
gons are still in MOW service for the UP in Colorado
and Utah.

Kevin Slark
RGHMS Associate Editor
Birmingham, Alabama

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Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

Lawrence Jackman <ljack70117@...>
 

Why do you call them saw tooth???? I have never see a saw with teeth
reversedto each other.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

These cars have a "sawtooth" hopper arrangement similar to PRR Class
H21 and the "long" taper vice the "stepped" taper on the Athearn quad.

Ben Hom


Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

Tom Gloger
 

--- Lawrence Jackman <ljack70117@adelphia.net> wrote:
Why do you call them saw tooth???? I have never see a
saw with teeth reversed to each other.
A lumbering or even a pruning saw will have alternate
teeth facing opposite directions, so it can saw on both
strokes. See?
- Tom Gloger



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Re: Earth Moving Equipment models as flat car loads

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 5/20/02 12:06:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ian@web-weaver.org writes:

<< AHM imported the Roco Minitank range. I am wondering if the two Roco
scrapers that I have (a 4 wheel unit and a 6 wheel semi) originate from the
same period and are the same models as you mention. >>

Ian,

Those are the same models, just molded in green instead of yellow.

The diagrams in MD-6 contain very accurate schematics of the Cat scraper and
Athey Rock Trailers.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada

Guy


Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Andy Sperandeo wrote:

George Walls mentioned the Santa Fe's Ga-24 4-bay "cross hoppers" in
the '31 cyc. There were only 75 of these cars, all built in 1929. The
class remained intact until 1961, but they certainly weren't common
cars in the overall AT&SF fleet.


And they're not a straight kitbash from the Athearn quad either:

http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Hoppers/ATSF-quad-31-
cyc.jpg

These cars have a "sawtooth" hopper arrangement similar to PRR Class
H21 and the "long" taper vice the "stepped" taper on the Athearn quad.


Ben Hom


Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

George Walls mentioned the Santa Fe's Ga-24 4-bay "cross hoppers" in the '31
cyc. There were only 75 of these cars, all built in 1929. The class remained
intact until 1961, but they certainly weren't common cars in the overall
AT&SF fleet.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
262-796-8776, ext. 461
Fax 262-796-1142
asperandeo@mrmag.com


Models For Sale

Justin Kahn <jacekahn@...>
 

Dear John
An elegant way to accomplish this; it almost makes me wish I were back in HO...
Jace Kahn

I need to thin the herd, and have a few models
available for sale (cars and locomotives--1950s-era)
if you're interested. Here's the link:

http://community.webshots.com/user/johngolden

I'm not out to make big bucks off my friends, so the
first reasonable offer for one or more models is
accepted. If you want more details about a particular
model, just write me at Golden1014@yahoo.com with your
questions. Shipping is on me. Be advised that there
are several views of each model for your review, so it
might appear that there's three or four ACL box cars
for sale when in fact there's only one available.
Thanks!

Yours,
John Golden
Travis AFB, CA





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Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

thompson@...
 

Gary Meyer said:
Eric, I have vague memories of seeing some red Southern Pacific hoppers in
the late 1940s or 1950s that were constructed with their steel side panels
riveted to the out side of the vertical supports that for lack of knowing the
correct term, I will call "Ribs." I believe, but am not sure that these cars
were constructed with two bays.
Gary, these were probably the inside-stake longitudinal-dump cars, of
which SP had several classes. They were AAR class HK and were not
conventional "coal" hoppers. Some modelers have called them "slab-side"
cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Earth Moving Equipment models as flat car loads

Buygone <buygone@...>
 

All:

While we are on the subject of crawler loads does anyone have the AAR
Blocking and Bracing rules for the crawler type of tractors? Say late
1940's or early 1950's.

Paul C. Koehler

-----Original Message-----
From: guycwilber@aol.com [mailto:guycwilber@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:54 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Earth Moving Equipment models as flat car loads


In a message dated 5/20/02 4:45:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ggg9y@virginia.edu writes:

<< IHC also offers what appears to be a better quality a pan scraper and a
road grader. Though they lack the detail of better models, they could be
improved >>

Garth,

The IHC models were originally introduced by AHM in 1964. These were a
welcome addition to the cast metal Matchbox and Dinky Toy type equipment of
the day. At that time they were a rarity, a half-decent HO model of heavy
equipment in plastic. The line also included a D-8, a front end loader,
back
hoe and a couple other pieces. The four wheel scraper was offered alone, it
could be converted to a six wheel scraper with the addition of the four
wheel
tractor which is the best replica of the group. I have heard that the dies
for the bulk of the series were destroyed...I have searched for the D-8s at
numerous train shows, but have yet to find one ever.

The scraper(s), grader, and bulldozer were patterned after Caterpillar
equipment. I think at that time (1964) Cat had dropped the DW-20 and DW-21
designation for scrapers, but maybe not...eventually, self propelled
scrapers
would be numbered in the 600 series as they still are today.

All of these can be made into some pretty accurate models if one chooses to
give them some attention. Numerous books on vintage equipment are a great
source along with the McGraw-Hill periodicals on construction methods and
equipment.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada


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Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

thompson@...
 

Bill Kelly said:
The T&NO's H-70-5, 70 ton, three bay offset side cars were built in 1946.
This is quite true. My understanding has always been that these cars were
in captive power-plant service in Texas into the early 1960s. Does anyone
know if that's correct?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

howiselary <glw@...>
 

Eric,
I think that ATSF had some 4 bay offset type hoppers as far back as
1931. A Ga-24 type was pictured in the 1931 Cyc.

George Walls
Southern Railway
Asheville Div.
1935

--- In STMFC@y..., "Eric Hiser" <ehiser@e...> wrote:
Mike Brock provided a good overview of UP history on the adoption
of hoppers
versus a more general service gondola (and a gentle reminder that
the end of
GS gons is after 1960 :)) Any help out there on when SP or ATSF
picked up
any 3-bay hoppers during the steam period, or did they essentially
remain
with GS until post-1960? I am trying to get a sense of when bayed
hoppers
might begin to appear.....

Thanks for the great info on UP!

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ


Re: Bay hoppers vs GS gons in the SW

Bill Kelly
 

The T&NO's H-70-5, 70 ton, three bay offset side cars were built in 1946.

Later,
Bill Kelly

Eric asked:
Mike Brock provided a good overview of UP history on the adoption of
hoppers versus a more general service gondola (and a gentle reminder
that
the end of GS gons is after 1960 :)) Any help out there on when SP or
ATSF
picked up any 3-bay hoppers during the steam period, or did they
essentially
remain with GS until post-1960? I am trying to get a sense of when
bayed
hoppers might begin to appear.....

________________________________________________________________
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Re: Earth Moving Equipment models as flat car loads

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Ian,

Check with International Hobbies of Auburn, California. They import some very high-quality metal kits.
Some are American prototypes.

EKO makes a Euclid-type pan scraper in plastic. Their models are pretty crude, but a some can be
upgraded. IHC also offers what appears to be a better quality a pan scraper and a road grader. Though
they lack the detail of better models, they could be improved. Both lines are listed in Walthers.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

ian clasper wrote:


Hi Guys

I am looking at the various available models of Earth Moving Equipment to
load onto some empty flat cars that I have.
First dilemma is which of the available quality models is suitable for my
modeling year of 1953 ?
Second, is where can I find details of the prototypes to these models so I
can bring the modeling standard of the load up to the same standard as the
flat car it sits upon (there is nothing worse than putting a crappy toy onto
a scale model).

The list of models I have assembled so far are:

Roco (out of production)
#1404 Caterpillar Scraper
Caterpillar Grader

Woodland Scenics
D233 Bulldozer
D234 Motor Grader
D235 Track Type Loader
D237 Back Hoe-Insley Model K
D246 Hyster Logging Cruiser & Tractor

I have looked at the offerings from Kibri, Preiser and Viking however these
are all either too modern or are European prototypes.
Any other suggestions ? A quick look thru the Walthers catalog shows several
toy manufacture's but little else.

I do not want to become a 1/87 vehicle modeler more than I need to.

Thanks

Ian Clasper


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Steel Load Banding Notes

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 5/15/02 6:14:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
BlackDiamondRR@cs.com writes:

<< Also if modeling in the modern era you would need to "band" them with the
steel
bandings and red "Signode" (or other brand) clamps. >>

Thanks Bud,

The use of steel banding to secure loads dates to the early 1930s. Signode
and ACME both were supplying a myriad of banding supplies, each with their
own (patented) crimping systems and clamps. The vast majority of AAR Open
Top Loading diagrams included steel banding as an alternative to traditional
wire methods by 1940. The steel banding also replaced a number of labor
intensive methods utilizing threaded steel rods.

Samuel Lynn, superintendent of rolling stock for the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie
was Chairman of the Loading Rules Committee from 1927 through 1936. Mr. Lynn
was instrumental in forming the various sub-committees that worked with
representatives of industry that relied on rail shipment. Safe and
economical methods of securing loads was a priority of Mr. Lynn, and as an
employee of a major steel hauling road he was at the forefront of major
advancements in steel product shipments (via rail).

In 1937, Mr. W. S. Guy, traffic manager for US Steel stressed to the AAR's
Loading Rules committee the "need" for continued use and testing of the
traditional wire tying methods. Why? In his own words, "We have a
subsidiary that manufactures wire ties, and we expect full consideration to
be given use of wire for pipe loading." This may be one reason some of the
pipe and steel product loads were slow to progress, but (again) the use of
banding was quite prevalent by the early 1940s.

Steel banding would also prove most valuble in the progression of "floating
load" methods for both open top and closed car loads.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada

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