Date   

Re: PHP

Steve SANDIFER
 

Here are several pages with product ratios, etc.
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Packing/Index.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@sbcglobal.net
Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417
Personal: http://www.geocities.com/stevesandifer2000/index
Church: http://www.swcentral.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Clark Propst
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:02 AM
Subject: [STMFC] PHP





I have an old list of loads received or shipped to and from a packinghouse.
Can't anyone add to the list?
Inbound Outbound
tin cans meal
coal lard
salt tankage
rock salt tank water
saw dust tallow
cardboard box hides
stock hogs meat
stock cattle meat scrap
stock sheep
ammonia
chemicals

Thanks,
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


PHP

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

I have an old list of loads received or shipped to and from a packinghouse.
Can't anyone add to the list?
Inbound Outbound
tin cans meal
coal lard
salt tankage
rock salt tank water
saw dust tallow
cardboard box hides
stock hogs meat
stock cattle meat scrap
stock sheep
ammonia
chemicals

Thanks,
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Surplus wheel sets

mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

In HO scale, Tichy wheel sets (part #3004 or #3010) are meant as loads or scenery.
I thought of those too, Al, but the current Tichy parts list doesn't show them:

http://tichytraingroup.com/index.php?page=view_category.php&;category=Freight+Car+Parts&offset=0

However, the flatcar kit with wheel load is still listed:
http://tichytraingroup.com/images/parts/4023_1_b.gif
http://tichytraingroup.com/index.php?page=view_product.php&;id=275&category=Freight+Car+Kits

Walt Lankenau


Re: Surplus wheel sets

al_brown03
 

In HO scale, Tichy wheel sets (part #3004 or #3010) are meant as loads or scenery. At the risk of coining a bad term, their axle ends are "blunt" rather than pointed.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "bill_d_goat" <billdgoat@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Freitas" <prrinvt@> wrote:

List,

A fellow listr asked for surplus wheel sets in plastic on metal axles to finish a gond load of wheels. I must humbly admit to loosing the requesters address "somewhere" in the paper pile on my desk. Please contact me off list as I will be happy to ship the now packed box of items.

Fred Freitas
Bennington, VT
Keep in mind that real wheel sets did not have pointed axle ends like our models. Thus a gon load or engine facility scene will not look prototypical.
Bill Williams


Re: Packers Car Line

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

Thanks to those who responded to my query about Packers Car Line, and the clarification of the actual build date of #4000. I should have studied the photo more closely!

Looking again at the 1968 ORER page being the earliest I have for Packers, I note that the external dimensions and the interior width and height are the same for both groups of cars - PCX 4000-4399 (built 1957) and 4400-4600 (history unknown). The only differences are the length between ice tanks (33' 7" for the first group and 37' 10" for the second group), the second group does not have a capacity shown for chunk ice, its capacity between ice boxes is 2050 cu. ft. compared with 1848 cu. ft. for the first group and its weight capacity is 78000 pounds rather than 72000 pounds. The cars are almost identical.

However, looking at the numbers of cars in the ORER, there were 219 of the first group and 163 of the second group, a total of 382 compared to the original group of 400 built 13 years earlier. Does this suggest that almost half the cars were rebuilt and renumbered, especially as the design was dated when the cars were first built in 1957?

Having had this brainwave, I've just realised that I am outside the 1960 cut-off. My apologies! If anyone can narrow down the first appearance of 4400-4600 sometime after 1/61, please contact me off list.


Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Hawkins" <hawk0621@sbcglobal.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Packers Car Line


The caption of PCX 4000 states the cars were built in 1956 by PC&F, but
the build date of PCX 4000 can clearly be read as 6-57. According to
the 1956 list of orders in Railway Age dated 1/14/57, Packers Car Line
ordered 400 refrigerator cars in June 1956 with delivery specified as
August 1957. The PCX 4000 made it two months earlier.

The April 1957 ORER lists the 400 cars in series PCX 4000-4399 with an
asterisk denoting additions. While there were 400 cars listed in this
ORER, the number of cars in service at that time had to be a projection
since they weren't actually built for two to four months thereafter.

By the way, 3 of these PCX cars appeared in MP Train 70 on March 26,
1959, departing Kansas City destined for St. Louis. All 3 cars
originated in Kansas City with "PHP" (packing house products). Once in
St. Louis, all 3 cars proceeded to E. St. Louis on the Terminal
Railroad Association of St. Louis for eastern destinations.

PC 4377 went on the PRR and N&W with a final destination of Norfolk,
Va., PCX 4053 went on the PRR to Pittsburgh, and PCX 4073 went on the
NYC to Albany, New York.

These cars are shown in a lengthy wheel report table along with a B&W
photo of PCX 4142 and color photo of PCX 4235 in a special double issue
of the MPHS Eagle, available for on-line purchase at www.mopac.org
(shameless plug).
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Surplus wheel sets

seaboard_1966
 

What do you say...no pointed axles? How in the heck did they roll then? Inquiring minds have to know.

Denis Blake
North Hamlet Shops, OH

----- Original Message -----
From: "bill_d_goat" <billdgoat@bellsouth.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 1:24 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Surplus wheel sets


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Freitas" <prrinvt@...> wrote:

List,

A fellow listr asked for surplus wheel sets in plastic on metal axles to finish a gond load of wheels. I must humbly admit to loosing the requesters address "somewhere" in the paper pile on my desk. Please contact me off list as I will be happy to ship the now packed box of items.

Fred Freitas
Bennington, VT
Keep in mind that real wheel sets did not have pointed axle ends like our models. Thus a gon load or engine facility scene will not look prototypical.
Bill Williams



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Re: Rolling stock as scenery

bill_d_goat
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Hi,

I -often- try to get layout op sessions/owners to understand that when
a local goes to a town that they shouldn't "pick up every car and drop
a car at every industry". I.e. - that at most 1/4th to 1/3rd of the cars
should be worked during the visit to the town of any one train.

My comments, for the most part, fall on deaf ears.

I even go so far as to provide operating instructions such as
"leaves ____ town with 4 to 6 cars, goes to town ____ (a different
town) and picks up at most 1/4th of the cars in town". And find
that at most 1 out of 10 operators will follow those instructions.
We are "programmed" to work every car in every siding at every
industry in town.
*** SIGH *** ... Jim (preaching to the choir here)
Wouldn't car card & waybill, or computer printout solve this problem?
Bill Williams


Re: Surplus wheel sets

bill_d_goat
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Freitas" <prrinvt@...> wrote:

List,

A fellow listr asked for surplus wheel sets in plastic on metal axles to finish a gond load of wheels. I must humbly admit to loosing the requesters address "somewhere" in the paper pile on my desk. Please contact me off list as I will be happy to ship the now packed box of items.

Fred Freitas
Bennington, VT
Keep in mind that real wheel sets did not have pointed axle ends like our models. Thus a gon load or engine facility scene will not look prototypical.
Bill Williams


Re: Prototype Rails 2010

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Denis Riley asks:

Does anyone know the dates for Prototype Rails 2010?
Well, hopefully I do.

Jan 7-10. Activities begin in the Hilton Hotel on Thursday evening, Jan 7, and end at midnight on Jan 9. Layouts open on Jan 10.

Mike Brock
Prototype Rails Chairman


Re: Rolling stock as scenery

Tim O'Connor
 

Jim,

Many layouts have a dearth of local industry sidings.
At my club, it takes about 3 months to execute a single
operating "day". If cars were left on industry sidings
for 3 days, you can do the math: the car would only be
moved after 9 real months. That kind of operation turns
a whole fleet of cars into scenery. Also, on a club
layout, cars may be taken off the layout and put back
on only during operations. That means 8 times of taking
that car off the layout, storing it, and putting it back
again before it is ever moved by a train. Mistakes and
damage are very common in such circumstances.

Such are the joys of "realistic" operation... My own
preference is the totally senile approach: I have no
idea where the cars came from, or where they'll go in
the future. I'm only interested in running a local with
plenty of work to do. I'd run the local every op session
if I could -- 6 times per "day" -- as long as someone
wants to crew it. I'd probably feel differently if we
could get through a "day" in one month (two op sessions).
Then at least, I could actually experience the flow of
cars over the layout, as opposed to just theoretically
imaging such a flow but never actually remembering it
over an extended period of time.

Tim O'Connor


I -often- try to get layout op sessions/owners to understand that when

a local goes to a town that they shouldn't "pick up every car and drop
a car at every industry". I.e. - that at most 1/4th to 1/3rd of the cars
should be worked during the visit to the town of any one train.

My comments, for the most part, fall on deaf ears.

I even go so far as to provide operating instructions such as
"leaves ____ town with 4 to 6 cars, goes to town ____ (a different
town) and picks up at most 1/4th of the cars in town". And find
that at most 1 out of 10 operators will follow those instructions.
We are "programmed" to work every car in every siding at every
industry in town.
*** SIGH *** ... Jim (preaching to the choir here)


Prototype Rails 2010

Denis Riley <twc3522326329@...>
 

Does anyone know the dates for Prototype Rails 2010?


Re: Rolling stock as scenery

Schuyler Larrabee
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

I -often- try to get layout op sessions/owners to understand that when
a local goes to a town that they shouldn't "pick up every car and drop
a car at every industry". . . .

My comments, for the most part, fall on deaf ears.

I even go so far as to provide operating instructions such as
"leaves ____ town with 4 to 6 cars, goes to town ____ (a different
town) and picks up at most 1/4th of the cars in town".
Sounds like you need to adopt some sort of waybill system, which would tell your crews exactly
what to pick up and
what to drop off at every station. I'm sure there's a Yahoo list devoted to such operational
niceties.

Walt Lankenau

Yahoo's op-sig list comes to mind.

SGL





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Re: Rolling stock as scenery

mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

I -often- try to get layout op sessions/owners to understand that when
a local goes to a town that they shouldn't "pick up every car and drop
a car at every industry". . . .

My comments, for the most part, fall on deaf ears.

I even go so far as to provide operating instructions such as
"leaves ____ town with 4 to 6 cars, goes to town ____ (a different
town) and picks up at most 1/4th of the cars in town".
Sounds like you need to adopt some sort of waybill system, which would tell your crews exactly what to pick up and what to drop off at every station. I'm sure there's a Yahoo list devoted to such operational niceties.

Walt Lankenau


Re: Rolling stock as scenery

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

I -often- try to get layout op sessions/owners to understand that when
a local goes to a town that they shouldn't "pick up every car and drop
a car at every industry". I.e. - that at most 1/4th to 1/3rd of the cars
should be worked during the visit to the town of any one train.

My comments, for the most part, fall on deaf ears.

I even go so far as to provide operating instructions such as
"leaves ____ town with 4 to 6 cars, goes to town ____ (a different
town) and picks up at most 1/4th of the cars in town". And find
that at most 1 out of 10 operators will follow those instructions.
We are "programmed" to work every car in every siding at every
industry in town.
*** SIGH *** ... Jim (preaching to the choir here)


Re: Eastern Canadian Coal

r1ddell <jriddell@...>
 

Alan,

Prescott was but one of many ports on the Great Lakes where U.S. coal was landed in Ontario. Others included Little Current, Jack Fish, Michipicoten, Fort William, Sault Ste. Marie, Depot Harbour, Key Harbour, Port Arthur, Port Maitland, Port Stanley, Port Burwell and Cobourg. Some imported in rail cars by railroad car ferry, some in bulk by coal boat.

On what evidence is your second paragraph based ? I have not seen any evidence to support that assertion. Published evidence indicates Cornwall was the farthest west that NS coal was shipped.

John Riddell

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...> wrote:

Coal from the US was brought in by rail car and ferried across the St.
Lawrence River to Prescott, Ontario from Ogdensburg NY. I've received
copies of pictures showing B&O hoppers on the NYC docks in Ogdensburg
and in trains up the CP Prescott Sub from Prescott.

CN used more Maritimes coal farther west because they were the
government road and therefore more willing to pay more and haul it
further than CP, a private company.

Alan


2009/6/7 John Riddell <jriddell@...>:
Tim,

Coal has been an important resource mined at many locations in western Canada for over 150 years.

In the STMFC era, coal consumption of railways in Canada was as follows --

Nova Scotia bituminous coal was used in all Maritime Provinces and Quebec and as far west as Cornwall, Ontario. NS coal was shipped  mainly by barge from Sydney.

US coal was imported for Ontario (west of Cornwall), Manitoba and Saskatchewan (as far west as Regina and Saskatoon). CPR obtained U.S. coal from Cambridge Collieries in Cambridge, Ohio, in which CPR had a heavy financial interest.  CNR similarly had interests in a U.S. mine. U.S. coal was often shipped by boat on the great lakes or by rail during the winter.

Coal from mines at Crowsnest Pass and Canmore and Bankhead, Alberta was used in western Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Coal from the many mines in the Crowsnest Pass was used in southern Alberta and southern B.C.

Coal from Jasper Park mines was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific lines west of Watrous, Saskatchewan and between Edmonton and Calgary.

Coal from mines on Vancouver Island was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific line east from Prince George.

Hope this helps.

John Riddell
--
Alan Palmer
http://rrgeekdev.googlepages.com/home


Re: Eastern Canadian Coal

Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...>
 

Coal from the US was brought in by rail car and ferried across the St.
Lawrence River to Prescott, Ontario from Ogdensburg NY. I've received
copies of pictures showing B&O hoppers on the NYC docks in Ogdensburg
and in trains up the CP Prescott Sub from Prescott.

CN used more Maritimes coal farther west because they were the
government road and therefore more willing to pay more and haul it
further than CP, a private company.

Alan


2009/6/7 John Riddell <jriddell@interlog.com>:
Tim,



Coal has been an important resource mined at many locations in western Canada for over 150 years.



In the STMFC era, coal consumption of railways in Canada was as follows --

Nova Scotia bituminous coal was used in all Maritime Provinces and Quebec and as far west as Cornwall, Ontario. NS coal was shipped  mainly by barge from Sydney.



US coal was imported for Ontario (west of Cornwall), Manitoba and Saskatchewan (as far west as Regina and Saskatoon). CPR obtained U.S. coal from Cambridge Collieries in Cambridge, Ohio, in which CPR had a heavy financial interest.  CNR similarly had interests in a U.S. mine. U.S. coal was often shipped by boat on the great lakes or by rail during the winter.



Coal from mines at Crowsnest Pass and Canmore and Bankhead, Alberta was used in western Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Coal from the many mines in the Crowsnest Pass was used in southern Alberta and southern B.C.

Coal from Jasper Park mines was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific lines west of Watrous, Saskatchewan and between Edmonton and Calgary.



Coal from mines on Vancouver Island was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific line east from Prince George.



Hope this helps.



John Riddell






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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--
--
Alan Palmer
http://rrgeekdev.googlepages.com/home


Re: Eastern Canadian Coal

Charles Morrill
 

Don,
I recieved this answer from Ted Doyle who is very familier with Springhill ----

Springhill coal was shipped by both rail and sea.

There was a short line railroad (Cumberland Country Railway and Coal
Company, something like that - long gone) that ran from Springhill to
Parrsboro NS, a deepwater seaport on the Bay of Fundy. Parrsboro was
approximately 25 miles south of Springhill and the railroad ran down
hill all the way. Thus all that was needed were to operate the line
were a pair of 2-8-0s. I don't think they were double headed but
don't know for sure. Parrsboro had a decent dock for loading the coal.

The CNR had a branch line from Springhill mines to Springhill
Junction, about three miles north of Springhill. As with the
Parrsboro line the CNR branch was down hill all the way to the
Junction. From there coal was shipped to much of Canada especially
Quebec and Ontario.

After the 'bump' in 1957 that killed many miners, the mines were shut
down permanently. Many miners moved to other coal producing areas.
Some settled BC and Alberta. Not mentioned in the post clip you send,
but there were several mines serviced by the CNR just east of Jasper
and outside the National Park.

Hope this helps.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald B. Valentine" <riverman_vt@yahoo.com>

Speaking of U.S. products going into Canada in discussing the IC twin hopper decals raises a question for me. As I expect most of us are aware, Bristish Columbia produces a lot of coal. At present most of this seems to be exported to markets in the Orient. The other great producer of coal in Canada is Nova Scotia, particularly around Springhill and at the outer end of Cape Breton Island. I can well remember first arriving in Springhill as a youngster with my parents on the way to the Kentville area to visit cousins. It was a late afternoon in 1954 and the town seemed deserted. The Springhill Disaster, a major cave-in within the mines there, had occurred only hours before and everyone was at the minehead awaiting the fate of family members, relatives or neighbors who worked in them. But on that trip and many subsequent visits over the years I can never recall seeing the number of hoppers one would expect to move all the coal produced in Nova Scotia. I have seen an occasional photo of a CNR or CPR twin hopper but cannot recall seeing a triple hopper from either road. And what about the little Sydney & Louisberg? I don't recall ever seeing a photo of a hopper from that road other than on Cape Breton Island. So how was all of this Nova Scotia mined coal moved, particularly from Springhill, which had no deepwater port nearby. Wasn't any of this coal transported to Quebec or Ontario for use or were those provinces nearly wholly dependent on U.S coal???

Thanks for any imput, Don Valentine


Re: Packers Car Line

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jun 7, 2009, at 1:34 PM, Bernd Schroeder wrote:

what issue would that be ? The online store description for the Eagle
contents are not exactly detailed...

I do appreciate that the MPHS has also joined those Historical
societies
which are open for worldwide online business (I am from Germany, FWIW)
Bernd,
It's the Fall-Winter 2008 issue. If you live in Germany, I'm not sure
how the postage works because the normal postage amount is to addresses
in the U.S.

It's probably best to contact the manager of the company store, David
Blackburn, at mopacman@hotmail.com.
Ed Hawkins


Re: Eastern Canadian Coal

John Riddell <jriddell@...>
 

Tim,



Coal has been an important resource mined at many locations in western Canada for over 150 years.



In the STMFC era, coal consumption of railways in Canada was as follows --

Nova Scotia bituminous coal was used in all Maritime Provinces and Quebec and as far west as Cornwall, Ontario. NS coal was shipped mainly by barge from Sydney.



US coal was imported for Ontario (west of Cornwall), Manitoba and Saskatchewan (as far west as Regina and Saskatoon). CPR obtained U.S. coal from Cambridge Collieries in Cambridge, Ohio, in which CPR had a heavy financial interest. CNR similarly had interests in a U.S. mine. U.S. coal was often shipped by boat on the great lakes or by rail during the winter.



Coal from mines at Crowsnest Pass and Canmore and Bankhead, Alberta was used in western Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Coal from the many mines in the Crowsnest Pass was used in southern Alberta and southern B.C.

Coal from Jasper Park mines was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific lines west of Watrous, Saskatchewan and between Edmonton and Calgary.



Coal from mines on Vancouver Island was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific line east from Prince George.



Hope this helps.



John Riddell


Re: Packers Car Line

Bernd Schroeder
 

Hi Ed,

what issue would that be ? The online store description for the Eagle contents are not exactly detailed...

I do appreciate that the MPHS has also joined those Historical societies which are open for worldwide online business (I am from Germany, FWIW)


thanks
Bernd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Hawkins" <hawk0621@sbcglobal.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Packers Car Line



On Jun 7, 2009, at 12:18 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

There is a builder photo of PCX #4000 in the Burlington
Historical Society "Bulletin" #12. If I recall this car
is stenciled built in 1956.
Tim and Rupert,
The caption of PCX 4000 states the cars were built in 1956 by PC&F, but
the build date of PCX 4000 can clearly be read as 6-57. According to
the 1956 list of orders in Railway Age dated 1/14/57, Packers Car Line
ordered 400 refrigerator cars in June 1956 with delivery specified as
August 1957. The PCX 4000 made it two months earlier.

The April 1957 ORER lists the 400 cars in series PCX 4000-4399 with an
asterisk denoting additions. While there were 400 cars listed in this
ORER, the number of cars in service at that time had to be a projection
since they weren't actually built for two to four months thereafter.

By the way, 3 of these PCX cars appeared in MP Train 70 on March 26,
1959, departing Kansas City destined for St. Louis. All 3 cars
originated in Kansas City with "PHP" (packing house products). Once in
St. Louis, all 3 cars proceeded to E. St. Louis on the Terminal
Railroad Association of St. Louis for eastern destinations.

PC 4377 went on the PRR and N&W with a final destination of Norfolk,
Va., PCX 4053 went on the PRR to Pittsburgh, and PCX 4073 went on the
NYC to Albany, New York.

These cars are shown in a lengthy wheel report table along with a B&W
photo of PCX 4142 and color photo of PCX 4235 in a special double issue
of the MPHS Eagle, available for on-line purchase at www.mopac.org
(shameless plug).
Regards,
Ed Hawkins




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