Car restorers use a product called POR-15 which seems to be a full
size version of Scalecoat (or at least reacts the same way when it is
exposed to air). Once a can of POR-15 is opened you have to use it all
in the same session, but if you add a whiff of propane to the top of
the can before you seal it it prolongs the shelf life so that the
contents are still liquid several weeks later

Try this at you own risk and don't turn the gas valve on full unless
you want paint everywhere...

Aidrian

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

I was disappointed to see that the history of this car was basically
ignored. Built as a clone of the 1927 cars, the measurements shown in the
drawing indicate that it was rebuilt to the 12' 11" eave height at some
point.

Are you sure? Bill Welch's monograph and ORER entries indicate that the rebuilt cars were renumbered into the 57000-59999 series. The drawings are based on 50220, still bearing its original number. The eave height isn't called out on the MR drawing, but it scales about 12'8". The running board height is dimensioned 13' 4 1/4" vs. 13' 3 5/8" in the drawing reproduced in the 1931 Cyc. I think the small difference is consistent with the change to a steel roof and steel running board, but not enough to allow a 3" increase in the carbody height.

However, I was happy to see the underframe agrees with the photos
I have of the FGE reefer at the B&O museum, indicating that the underbody
arrangement of the IM model is most likely incorrect, or reflects an
unusual version.

I'm surprised that nobody has commented on the really odd thing in the MR drawing - the two-level floor shown in the cross-sections. I think this must be an error from misinterpreting what was seen from underneath. The original underframe (per Cyc.drawing) shows flooring supported on wood stringers, 7" deep stringers resting on the side sills and crossbearers, and 3 to 4" deep stringers above the center sills. The dimensions are different because the top of the crossbearers and side sills is a few inches below the top of the centersills.

The MR drawing shows this construction from the side stringer to the middle stringer, and a lower floor section in the center, at the height of the center sill. The underbody photos do appear to show lower flooring in the area between the middle stringers.

Obviously, a floor with a stepped-down section would be impractical.

I suspect that the prototype has had subflooring added between the stringers during some rebuilding, perhaps to provide space for additional insulation. The original, true floor would remain above the stringers. Sometime later, the portion of subflooring between the side stringer and middle stringer was removed, but the part from the middle stringer to the centersill remains. The photos and drawings show strips, approx. 2"x4" along the sides of the stringers which would have been added to support the subfloor.

I know my description won't make any sense without reffering to the drawings in MR, and may not anyway. ;)

Any other thoughts?

Jack

Many thanks to Bill Keene, Jared Harper, Jon Miller, octoraro1948 (do not know your name. Sorry.), Tim O'Connor, Dennis Storzek, Denny Anspach, Schuyler Larrabee, Tony Thompson and Clark Propst for information or just plain opinions about Sergent couplers as well as the various Kadee and Accumate couplers under this subject heading and "Re: Kadee 158s." Especial thanks to Jerry Stewart for referring me to videos done by Tim Warris of Bronx Terminal fame. I have a lot to think about.

At present I'm pretty well committed to Kadee 5s and 58s but I see some experimentation in my future.

Gene Green
Headed to Santa Fe country.

Denny,That pretty well covers all the bases.That said,I try to continually change cars between operating sessions so the crews do not see the same cars session after session.Having a rather large fleet of cars it becomes rather difficult to keep all cars in tip top condition.Some cars being taken out of their storage box may be found to have minor damage, such as a lost part,drooping coupler, dirt build up.A Bad Order card is made out stating problem areas.It is then placed in the storage box and the car will not be restored to service until all defects have been corrected.Each car has two cards,one for operation ,the other for car information such as manufacturer ,source,date built,cost,value,Trucks,wheel sets, weight,couplers and matching paint.Each repair is also recorded with the date and inspector.The car is then ready to be returned to service and the Bad Order card removed.This second card is a source of valuable information and also provides me with an inventory.Your comments are invited.Armand Premo

-----





The following freight car maintenance issues I believe to underly
predictable, reliable operations of how a freight car actually will
play its part in a functioning TRAIN on the layout, while continuing
to aspire to being a prototype model. In this regard, couplers and
wheels are inextricably linked together, and if one can get these
issues under control right from the git-go, other problems will seem
much easier to solve.

COUPLER INTEGRITY:

If a coupler does not lie in a level horizontal plane, and/or when
two couplers meet that are not in matching vertical and horizontal
planes, routine coupling simply will not work reliably, and unexpected
uncouplings can and will be a common event, especially over vertical
curves and irregular trackwork.

Vertical plane: a) Probably the most common problem lies in the
excessive side play of so many (most?) axles, where the shifting truck
frame shunts the carbody out of alignment to one side or another, at
the same time compounding the problem by rolling the car slightly out
of vertical in each direction.

b) This matter is even more insidiously promoted by the fact that so
many of the common disparately-wide truck bolster center holes are
fastened through with small 2-56 screws in such a way that the truck
drunkenly punts itself freely back and forth on its own. Just these
two issues alone can cause any two cars at any given instance not to
ever couple, even with the widest available coupler gathering-range.

c) Coupler box center posts are not in straight alignment with body
bolster holes- more common than you might think. The Accumate Proto
couplers present a special challenge, i.e. making absolutely certain
that the TWO screws holding each coupler box are respectively exactly
on the same alignment with reference to each other, and that that
alignment includes the centers of both body bolster holes.

d) The scale sized couplers inherently have a much reduced gathering
range, so in routine operations, more difficulty in routine coupling
can be expected if accurate vertical alignment has not been attained.

Horizontal Plane:
a) The biggest culprit is the widespread habit of adjusting "coupler
height" [sic.] by merely adjusting the curve or clearance of the
magnetic glad hand, regardless of what it does or does not do to the
proper height and alignment of the coupler head itself. Use a gauge
that allows one to ensure a steady height to the HEAD alone, and
THEN, and only then adjust the magnetic glad hand, if you must.

b) Coupler droop: This is the true rotten apple in the barrel, and
in my experience this single insidious issue also has provoked the
greatest damage over the years. Kadee-pattern couplers are designed
to fit into a dog's breakfast of coupler boxes of vague commonly-
accepted dimensions, all of which allow considerable vertical
clearance/slop to the coupler shank. This looseness results in
considerable coupler droop, some much more than others, considering
internal box dimensions, coupler shank thickness, length of shank,
weight of head, the presence or absence of the thickness of a coupler
spring. Apropos of a preceding discussion of long vs. short couplers,
the downward leverage exerted by the heads of long shank couplers,
large or scale only makes this situation worse, compounded by the long
shank too often dropping the magnetic glad hand right down where it
can snag the very next closure rail. If coupler heads are kept level
and in alignment, the common problems of coupler overriding are
minimized to being actually eliminated. The only coupler systems to
date to specifically address this issue are the Accumate Protos and
the Sergeants (which have shanks engineered to tightly fit the
Accumate Proto box). These latter couplers are absolutely level and
have no droop.

Other factors or issues, to a great extent inextricable from the above:

1) Metal wheels.
2) Metal wheels
3) Axle/wheel quality in custom-fitted lengths that allow free
rollability. Allows the make up of trains that both look and function
like *trains*.
4) Axle lengths that minimize lateral endplay (quite often the choice
of 2 and 3 necessitates compromise). See a) above.
5) Tight bolster screws. These too often work their way on their own
accord (right now I am attempting to discover which boxcar on the
layout belongs to a bolster screw just discovered between the rails on
a main track). I have taken to dipping the screw end in Barge Cement
so that the cement's "rubbery fingers" will at least hold the screw in
place, yet with still sufficient clearance to allow the necessary
truck movement to keep the car on the track.

In 2006, for two months I ran a demonstration 131 car train made up of
a truly disparate group of substantial freight cars, ranging from
Westerfield to several Varney cars from the 30s. The train ran over a
layout with considerable variance in terrain and routing without
scarcely a single coupling or truck wheel failure (including a
movement in reverse) during that time, the single most reason for
which was the meticulous vetting of coupler head alignment and height
(as above) of each and every car ahead of time.

Enough for today-

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento






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Other source of poor running is the axle ends. If the axle is plastic, even the slippery kind, the ends can also get coated with
the same gunk that accumulates on plastic wheels. Kadee wheel sets have plastic slippery axles and I have found they accumulate
the crud. I no longer used Kadee wheels for this one reason.

Also clean out the axle holes in the trucks. Get the tool from Micro Mark or Reboxx for doing this. It will clean out accumulated
crud, burs and flash, and reshape the cone if needed for optimum rolling characteristics.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

Did P&WV have a PS-1 variation?

Jim

Yes, but they were the 1948 version of the PS-1. Different
underframe, roof, doors, and ends. Intermountain's model is
the post-1953 version. Greg Martin wrote a kitbash article
in Mainline Modeler, September 1993.

Tim O.

One thing I've done to try to extend the life of Scalecoat 1 in the past is, when I'm ready to close
up the bottle, dropper some fresh thinner on top of the paint, and then store it without shaking it.
It just goes on a shelf and sits there until next time, and I've had good luck with that.

SGL

Disagree all you like, I was sharing my experiences. Now there is also the possibility that

humidity levels could be factor

in this as well.
I do know that Scalecoat strongly recommends not to return thinned paint back to the original

bottle and that a custom

painter I know in Winnipeg as also urged me to follow that procedure.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>

wrote:

Pierre

I totally disagree with that statement. I have a couple dozen
opened bottles of Scalecoat and I routinely put thinned paint
back in the bottle. They only gel when the cap is not airtight.
Floquil bottles seem to have the best airtight seals.

I have found that your statement is correct when it comes to
acrylic paints. It's best to toss out the thinned paint while
exposing the original bottle to as little air as possible by
opening it only briefly to remove some.

Tim O'Connor

Schulyer,
What you've described is exactly what happens to Scalecoat paints if you allow thinner or

unused thinned paint to

return into the bottle of "fresh" paint.

Even if the bottle is well sealed.
Pierre Oliver

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The following freight car maintenance issues I believe to underly predictable, reliable operations of how a freight car actually will play its part in a functioning TRAIN on the layout, while continuing to aspire to being a prototype model. In this regard, couplers and wheels are inextricably linked together, and if one can get these issues under control right from the git-go, other problems will seem much easier to solve.

COUPLER INTEGRITY:

If a coupler does not lie in a level horizontal plane, and/or when two couplers meet that are not in matching vertical and horizontal planes, routine coupling simply will not work reliably, and unexpected uncouplings can and will be a common event, especially over vertical curves and irregular trackwork.

Vertical plane: a) Probably the most common problem lies in the excessive side play of so many (most?) axles, where the shifting truck frame shunts the carbody out of alignment to one side or another, at the same time compounding the problem by rolling the car slightly out of vertical in each direction.

b) This matter is even more insidiously promoted by the fact that so many of the common disparately-wide truck bolster center holes are fastened through with small 2-56 screws in such a way that the truck drunkenly punts itself freely back and forth on its own. Just these two issues alone can cause any two cars at any given instance not to ever couple, even with the widest available coupler gathering-range.

c) Coupler box center posts are not in straight alignment with body bolster holes- more common than you might think. The Accumate Proto couplers present a special challenge, i.e. making absolutely certain that the TWO screws holding each coupler box are respectively exactly on the same alignment with reference to each other, and that that alignment includes the centers of both body bolster holes.

d) The scale sized couplers inherently have a much reduced gathering range, so in routine operations, more difficulty in routine coupling can be expected if accurate vertical alignment has not been attained.

Horizontal Plane:
a) The biggest culprit is the widespread habit of adjusting "coupler height" [sic.] by merely adjusting the curve or clearance of the magnetic glad hand, regardless of what it does or does not do to the proper height and alignment of the coupler head itself. Use a gauge that allows one to ensure a steady height to the HEAD alone, and THEN, and only then adjust the magnetic glad hand, if you must.

b) Coupler droop: This is the true rotten apple in the barrel, and in my experience this single insidious issue also has provoked the greatest damage over the years. Kadee-pattern couplers are designed to fit into a dog's breakfast of coupler boxes of vague commonly- accepted dimensions, all of which allow considerable vertical clearance/slop to the coupler shank. This looseness results in considerable coupler droop, some much more than others, considering internal box dimensions, coupler shank thickness, length of shank, weight of head, the presence or absence of the thickness of a coupler spring. Apropos of a preceding discussion of long vs. short couplers, the downward leverage exerted by the heads of long shank couplers, large or scale only makes this situation worse, compounded by the long shank too often dropping the magnetic glad hand right down where it can snag the very next closure rail. If coupler heads are kept level and in alignment, the common problems of coupler overriding are minimized to being actually eliminated. The only coupler systems to date to specifically address this issue are the Accumate Protos and the Sergeants (which have shanks engineered to tightly fit the Accumate Proto box). These latter couplers are absolutely level and have no droop.

Other factors or issues, to a great extent inextricable from the above:

1) Metal wheels.
2) Metal wheels
3) Axle/wheel quality in custom-fitted lengths that allow free rollability. Allows the make up of trains that both look and function like *trains*.
4) Axle lengths that minimize lateral endplay (quite often the choice of 2 and 3 necessitates compromise). See a) above.
5) Tight bolster screws. These too often work their way on their own accord (right now I am attempting to discover which boxcar on the layout belongs to a bolster screw just discovered between the rails on a main track). I have taken to dipping the screw end in Barge Cement so that the cement's "rubbery fingers" will at least hold the screw in place, yet with still sufficient clearance to allow the necessary truck movement to keep the car on the track.

In 2006, for two months I ran a demonstration 131 car train made up of a truly disparate group of substantial freight cars, ranging from Westerfield to several Varney cars from the 30s. The train ran over a layout with considerable variance in terrain and routing without scarcely a single coupling or truck wheel failure (including a movement in reverse) during that time, the single most reason for which was the meticulous vetting of coupler head alignment and height (as above) of each and every car ahead of time.

Enough for today-

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

Many lacquers are formulated with what are called 'drying oils.' These are oils that polymerize on exposure to oxygen. Linseed oil is the most well known, but there are several others. Every time you open the bottle you let some oxygen in and eventually you will cause the oil to polymerize, making the paint into a gel. If you seal the bottle well you can extend the life of the paint significantly. I know one individual who squirts some nitrogen into the bottle just as he's capping it, but even those precautions will not prevent it from gelling eventually.

As for acrylic paints, they are a very different animal. They consist of small droplets of paint suspended in water. There is a careful balance of surfactants in the water to keep the particles from coalescing (sticking together). When you dilute an acrylic, you upset this balance and the particles start to stick when they bump into each other. During a painting session you won't notice any change, but let the paint sit for a couple of days and you'll find all the solids glopped on the bottom of the jar. Most manufacturers sell a thinner for their acrylics that has the proper balance of solvents and surfactants. There's no guarantee, but you will have a much better chance of not messing up a bottle of paint if you use the recommended thinner. Otherwise, just thin what you need and toss the left overs.

Disagree all you like, I was sharing my experiences. Now there is also the possibility that humidity levels could be factor in this as well.
I do know that Scalecoat strongly recommends not to return thinned paint back to the original bottle and that a custom painter I know in Winnipeg as also urged me to follow that procedure.
Pierre Oliver

Tim, thanks for the reply.

What do you mean, "flat" lacquer? You mean a lacquer based flat coat?
The lacquer in that case is just the thinner.

Right, I know that. Actually, the "vehicle," not the thinner.

When it evaporates, the

other substance can gel. I've lost many paints to this -- in all cases
because the cap is not airtight.

The top was tight, I'm fairly obsessive about that. A nice pair of crescent pliers are on the
painting booth

Do you mean that it solidified instantly when you inserted the tube
into the bottle?

Yes.

Are you sure it wasn't already jelled?

Yes, it shook up just fine. I had to shake it for QUITE some time, as the solids (the flatting
agent) was settled in the bottom of the bottle big time.

I've only

seen "instant gel" form when combining incompatible liquids, like
acrylic with something that it reacts to chemically. Maybe your tube
was contaminated?

Well, I suppose that's possible. I had not been painting before this episode. I was cranking
everything up just to apply the flat coat. IF, that's IF, the contamination came from the tube, it
was thoroughly dry. Do you (plural for the list) have separate tubes (and airbrushes?) for acrylic
vs. solvent based paint?

SGL

Tim O'Connor

Not long ago, I went to use some flat lacquer I have used with great success in the past. When I
put the snorkel (or whatever that tube-in-the-cap is called) into the bottle, the lacquer, uh,

well,

sort of crystallized. Not truly into a solid mass, but it kind of jelled or something. I pitched
the bottle and gave the snorkel a very serious cleaning.

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Pierre, I agree with Tim's response on this.

SGL

I was looking at the Intermountain web site, and saw a P&WV PS-1 boxcar product offering in boxcar red paint with the "Symbol of Service" slogan.

How accurate is this Intermountain car for the P&WV?

Why hasn't Kadee done this car? Did P&WV have a PS-1 variation?

Pierre

I totally disagree with that statement. I have a couple dozen
opened bottles of Scalecoat and I routinely put thinned paint
back in the bottle. They only gel when the cap is not airtight.
Floquil bottles seem to have the best airtight seals.

I have found that your statement is correct when it comes to
acrylic paints. It's best to toss out the thinned paint while
exposing the original bottle to as little air as possible by
opening it only briefly to remove some.

Tim O'Connor

What do you mean, "flat" lacquer? You mean a lacquer based flat coat?
The lacquer in that case is just the thinner. When it evaporates, the
other substance can gel. I've lost many paints to this -- in all cases
because the cap is not airtight.

Do you mean that it solidified instantly when you inserted the tube
into the bottle? Are you sure it wasn't already jelled? I've only
seen "instant gel" form when combining incompatible liquids, like
acrylic with something that it reacts to chemically. Maybe your tube
was contaminated?

Tim O'Connor

Schulyer,
What you've described is exactly what happens to Scalecoat paints if you allow thinner or unused thinned paint to return into the bottle of "fresh" paint.
Even if the bottle is well sealed.
Pierre Oliver

Andy

They are very nice looking but are not scale width. I have
used many of them. The Accurail Proto:HO box was patterned
after them -- at least, Byron thought so. Later, Sunshine
created a similar pattern for some of his kits.

Tim O.

I am sure that there are many on this list with vastly more experience with paints than I . . .

Not long ago, I went to use some flat lacquer I have used with great success in the past. When I
put the snorkel (or whatever that tube-in-the-cap is called) into the bottle, the lacquer, uh, well,
sort of crystallized. Not truly into a solid mass, but it kind of jelled or something. I pitched
the bottle and gave the snorkel a very serious cleaning.

Does lacquer ever go bad? I've had this stuff a very long time, having bought a gallon of it years
ago. I've used it let down by half with quality lacquer thinner, so it's lasted me a very long
time. I have sold off some of it in small cans to other modelers who've expressed that they were
happy with it. And I've never had any bad interaction show up after years of exposure. I'd buy
more if it just needs to be fresh.

Thoughts?


SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!






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Many of us reading these posts remember our good friend Byron Rose, the RPA of Pittsburgh Scale Models, who offers arguably the best looking scale width coupler box in HO, manufactured in polyurethane resin. They are priced quite reasonable, and I think he sells them in packs of 5 pairs.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor



Dennis I agree your Proto:HO coupler box looks great. I only
wish it were molded in polystyrene. It's not easy to work with
and mounting with screws is sometimes not possible.

What are some the suggested routine (scheduled) maintenance practices for freight cars.? Some of

my older cars are not

as freewheeling as they once were, couplers are not as reliable, etc. I thought this might lead

to the sharing of some ideas

that would help prevent poor operation, especially when company comes. Armand Premo

Armand, the number one issue we have at my model railroad club, where maintenance happens when
something doesn't work right (and not before), is dirty wheels. FWIW, my number one answer is to
make sure that the trucks have metal wheels. Plastic wheels are, as has been established on this
list and others, attract crud and gunk, and become, eventually, flangeless. Obviously they derail.

We've not had tremendous troubles with couplers, which are almost universally Kadees. The most
common problem is a missing knuckle spring. A lack of centering action can generally be traced back
to the original owner and their attention to installation tolerances. Many people don't understand
how critical that is to successful operation. (Sergeant operators can stop snickering now, please.)
We keep the gladhands and use them for magnetic uncoupling. We've not suffered much trouble with
58s of any variety vs. 5s.

The other issue we see is the truck screws seem to work themselves loose (and I'm not even going to
discuss cars where the trucks are "held on" by friction-fit plastic pins). This leads to cars that
rock, and that leads to coupling issues, mostly break-in-twos.

Others?? What do you have to say?

SGL





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