Date   

Armour & Swift Meat Reefers

Doug Harding <dharding@...>
 

I am trying to letter some MDC reefers for Armour using the Clover House
Transfers, set # 8830-06, the mid 30's-40's set. The diagram with the
lettering set is fairly simple and does not show all the lettering that is
included. As I know Armour had several different car series and lettering
schemes, can someone suggest where I might find some photo's to help guide
me. I am modeling 1949. The color photo's I have seen tend to be of the
Armour red star paint scheme 1st introduced in mid 1948. I do have a
photocopy of Richard Henderson's RMJ 1993 article and Sunshine's Armour meet
reefer kit (with data sheet). Neither offers much help on accurate
lettering.

Am also doing Swift meat reefers with Clover House set #9300-10.

Thanks.

Doug Harding
Iowa Central Railroad
www.cal-net.net/~dharding/ <http://www.cal-net.net/~dharding/>


Re: A little more whining

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

"Tim O'Connor" Copmmented on the wine shipments . . .

These were B-70-1 50 foot insulated boxcars weighing about
39 tons empty. I'm surprised that wine loads were so light
(11 tons; 20 tons) -- all things considered.
Greater than 30% of the volume is air . . . Assuming that it is in either
bottles or some other cylindrical container.

SGL


Re: A little more whining

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Clark Propst wrote

SP 672337 DF box
Contents wine, 50 tons (includes car weight)
Billed from Station #4506 Council Bluffs
Billed to Station #412 Belwood
Connection NYC

9-9-62
SP 672410 DF box
Content wine, 59 tons
Billed from Station #4506 Council Bluffs
Billed to Station #412 Belwood
Connection NYC
These were B-70-1 50 foot insulated boxcars weighing about
39 tons empty. I'm surprised that wine loads were so light
(11 tons; 20 tons) -- all things considered.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


A little more whining

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

A couple of weeks ago there was talk about the RR's transporting wine.
I was making spread sheets of a few CGW switch lists today and came
across these two entries.
They are from train 192 a daily Oelwein to Chicago manifest.
9-8-62
SP 672337 DF box
Contents wine, 50 tons (includes car weight)
Billed from Station #4506 Council Bluffs
Billed to Station #412 Belwood
Connection NYC

9-9-62
SP 672410 DF box
Content wine, 59 tons
Billed from Station #4506 Council Bluffs
Billed to Station #412 Belwood
Connection NYC

Clark


Re: side note Was FtDDM&S Mather Box Cars

Lawrence Jackman <ljack70117@...>
 

I knew Charlie years ago and have not talked to him in at least 10 years.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

Richard Hendrickson wrote:


Off topic side note. Is Charles Winters still around??? If so How can I
get a hold of him???
AFAIK, he's still alive but, as I understand it, not in good health. If
it's photos you want, Harold Vollrath has been printing some of Charlie's
negatives.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: side note Was FtDDM&S Mather Box Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Off topic side note. Is Charles Winters still around??? If so How can I
get a hold of him???
AFAIK, he's still alive but, as I understand it, not in good health. If
it's photos you want, Harold Vollrath has been printing some of Charlie's
negatives.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: FtDDM&S Mather Box Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Ian Cranstone responded to my query:

The series is 14001-14010 (10 cars). They first appeared in the July 1955
issue -- there was obviously a bit of a time lag in their reporting to the
ORER as they didn't appear in the April 1955 issue despite the March 1955
reweigh date. These cars disappeared sometime between the January 1958 and
July 1958 issues.
Just what I needed to know, Ian. Thanks a bunch.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: side note Was FtDDM&S Mather Box Cars

Lawrence Jackman <ljack70117@...>
 

Off topic side note. Is Charles Winters still around??? If so How can I
get a hold of him???
Thank you
Larry Jackman

Richard Hendrickson wrote:


There is a photo in the Charles Winters collection of a Fort Dodge, Des
Moines & Southern Mather box car repainted and reweighed at Mather's
Chicago Ridge shops in March, 1955, apparently at the time the car was
leased to the FtDDM&S (as there is no listing for 14000 series cars in the
1/55 or earlier ORERs). There is also no listing for these cars in the
10/58 ORER, so the lease period was apparently brief. Can anyone with ORER
issues between those dates confirm how many cars Mather leased to the
FDtDM&S and what the exact number series was?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Streator Car Co.

cef39us <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@y..., "Chet French" <cfrench@g...> wrote:

Does anyone have information for a Streator Car Co.? The Wabash
show that two series of cars were built by the above company.
Composite gons 10125 - 10524 built in 1925, and 40' wood outside
brace auto cars 46700 - 46999 built in 1926.
In April, I attended a joint Santa Fe - CB&Q society meet in
Streator, IL and with a visit to the Streator Historical Society was
able to answer my own question. A company was formed in 1906 in
Streator as the Crawford Locomotive & Car Co. Mr. Crawford had a
contract with the Santa Fe for repairing a large number of cars, and
with this as a foundation was able to raise the capital to erect a
plant. From 1908 thru 1912 the plant built the steel underframes for
8000 cars and rebuilt 5000 cars. During rush periods, as high as
1000 men were employed at the plant which covered thirty acres with
buildings, tracks, and material yards. The plant was bordered by the
Santa Fe on the west, and the Wabash (former Chicago & Paducah) on
the east.

An article written in 1912 stated that the company's specialty was
rebuilding and re-enforcing freight cars, providing steel underframes
and wooden bodies. At the time of the article, the Crawford Co. was
working on a large contract building wood gondolas for the DT&I and
Detroit Southern. At the same time the company was working on a
large order of steel center sills for the CB&Q. The biggest share of
business was still with the Santa Fe. In 1912,two experimental steel
passenger cars were built for the Santa Fe under plans and
specification of the railroad.

In 1918, Crawford Co. recapitalized to build passenger cars starting
in 1919. The Streator Car Co. was formed in 1919 on the same
property. This is where the information got hazy. Perhaps Streator
car took over the freight car business for Crawford. Crawford Co.
was gone by 1922. Do not know how many passenger cars they built or
rebuilt during that time. The Streator Car Co. operated into 1928
with Goerge Donnersberger as President of the company and Frank
Donnersberger as VP and Mgr. A city directory shows the company
gone in 1929.

Chet French
Dixon,IL


FtDDM&S Mather Box Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

There is a photo in the Charles Winters collection of a Fort Dodge, Des
Moines & Southern Mather box car repainted and reweighed at Mather's
Chicago Ridge shops in March, 1955, apparently at the time the car was
leased to the FtDDM&S (as there is no listing for 14000 series cars in the
1/55 or earlier ORERs). There is also no listing for these cars in the
10/58 ORER, so the lease period was apparently brief. Can anyone with ORER
issues between those dates confirm how many cars Mather leased to the
FDtDM&S and what the exact number series was?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: FtDDM&S Mather Box Cars

Ian Cranstone
 

From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
There is a photo in the Charles Winters collection of a Fort Dodge, Des
Moines & Southern Mather box car repainted and reweighed at Mather's
Chicago Ridge shops in March, 1955, apparently at the time the car was
leased to the FtDDM&S (as there is no listing for 14000 series cars in the
1/55 or earlier ORERs). There is also no listing for these cars in the
10/58 ORER, so the lease period was apparently brief. Can anyone with ORER
issues between those dates confirm how many cars Mather leased to the
FDtDM&S and what the exact number series was?
The series is 14001-14010 (10 cars). They first appeared in the July 1955
issue -- there was obviously a bit of a time lag in their reporting to the
ORER as they didn't appear in the April 1955 issue despite the March 1955
reweigh date. These cars disappeared sometime between the January 1958 and
July 1958 issues.

--
Ian Cranstone
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...


Re: Rebuilds' corner posts

Stafford Swain <sswain@...>
 

Hi Earl:

The GTW rebuilt its double sheathed USRA box cars as well as a number of 1920-built former inside-sheathed Grand Trunk autocars with 7/8 Murphy ends into steel-sheathed box car and autocar rebuilds ca 1935 to 1940. These rebuilds were rostered by both the GTW and its parent CNR.

The extent of this program (except for the USRA rebuilds done in 1935) was effectively detailed in my RMJ article series of a year or so back. All the feed-stock ends were extended in width to meet the new steel sides by approx. 9-inch by 2-inch angles with the 9-inch portion riveted to the end and the 2-inch portion riveted to the side.

You may want to look at these cars in the context of your review of this topic.

> > A spotting feature for almost all cars reusing the
> original ends is an indentation where the end joins the
> car side, again from increasing the width of the
> carbody. The exception, of course, was the Pennsy
Class
> X26C USRA SS rebuilds.

The SP rebuilds used a wide "wraparound" piece to
extend from the ends onto the new sides, thus no indent.
Youngstown appears to have offered two versions of corner
post contruction for their USRA rebuild kit. See the 1943
CBC, page 424. There you see details on both the "notched"
corner post and the Alternate Corner Post (YSD's term.)
The former used a 1/4" plate steel (not rolled) Z riveted
to the outside of the end sheets' flange. The latter
required torching off the end sheet flange and riveting on
a wide 1/4" plate steel angle (not rolled,) or what Tony
calls a "wraparound" piece. The corner was also internally
reinforced with a 3" rolled Z.

It appears to me that the Alternate Corner Post required
additional fabrication and installation work for the crews
doing the rebuilding. Not only must the flange be torched
off, but in doing so, the old end ladder mounting locations
were lost in the process (at least on the PMcKY rebuilds.)
I don't see a readily apparent advantage to this design.

Besides the SP and PRR cars previously mentioned, and the
PMcKY SS rebuilds, do we know if any other roads used the
Alternate Corner Post?

Earl Tuson

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Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
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(204) 477-9246
sswain@...


Re: Rebuilds' corner posts

thompson@...
 

The photos taken at the Sacramento Shops by an SP photographer
show the crews "kitbashing" the ends to modify section sizes
What do you mean by "to modify section sizes"?
The sections of old end. The final (top down) end was 5-4-5-3.

drilling the "wraparound" piece.
Are they drilling the ACP separately, or simultaneously with the
modified end sheets?
The photo shows them drilling the rounded corner sheet. I can't tell if
there is an internal W post, though I'd guess there was. The reassembled
ends, BTW, did still have the original corner flanges in the photos I have.

Sacramento certainly had the shop capability to have made it
themselves.
Not surprising, as the only "special" equipment required would be a
10' brake.
Sure. But more importantly, that shop had wide experience building steel
cars from scratch as well as many modification programs.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Test message

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Sorry about this. I'm just testing to see if I'm getting
any Yahoo email -- nothing has arrived since yesterday early
afternoon.

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Rebuilds' corner posts

Earl Tuson
 

The photos taken at the Sacramento Shops by an SP photographer
show the crews "kitbashing" the ends to modify section sizes
What do you mean by "to modify section sizes"?

drilling the "wraparound" piece.
Are they drilling the ACP separately, or simultaneously with the
modified end sheets?

Sacramento certainly had the shop capability to have made it
themselves.
Not surprising, as the only "special" equipment required would be a
10' brake.

I will see what I can find in the car specs to determine whether
this part was purchased.
I would like to know what you find out.

Earl Tuson


Re: Rebuilds' corner posts

thompson@...
 

Earl Tuson said:
Youngstown appears to have offered two versions of corner
post contruction for their USRA rebuild kit. See the 1943
CBC, page 424. There you see details on both the "notched"
corner post and the Alternate Corner Post (YSD's term.)
The former used a 1/4" plate steel (not rolled) Z riveted
to the outside of the end sheets' flange. The latter
required torching off the end sheet flange and riveting on
a wide 1/4" plate steel angle (not rolled,) or what Tony
calls a "wraparound" piece. The corner was also internally
reinforced with a 3" rolled Z.
The photos taken at the Sacramento Shops by an SP photographer show the
crews "kitbashing" the ends to modify section sizes, and drilling the
"wraparound" piece. Whether this piece was from Youngstown or not, I don't
know, but Sacramento certainly had the shop capability to have made it
themselves. I will see what I can find in the car specs to determine
whether this part was purchased.
The sides were certainly purchased from Youngstown and delivered as
units, so it's quite possible a full kit was purchased.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Rebuilds' corner posts

Earl Tuson
 

A spotting feature for almost all cars reusing the
original ends is an indentation where the end joins the
car side, again from increasing the width of the
carbody. The exception, of course, was the Pennsy
Class
X26C USRA SS rebuilds.
The SP rebuilds used a wide "wraparound" piece to
extend from the ends onto the new sides, thus no indent.
Youngstown appears to have offered two versions of corner
post contruction for their USRA rebuild kit. See the 1943
CBC, page 424. There you see details on both the "notched"
corner post and the Alternate Corner Post (YSD's term.)
The former used a 1/4" plate steel (not rolled) Z riveted
to the outside of the end sheets' flange. The latter
required torching off the end sheet flange and riveting on
a wide 1/4" plate steel angle (not rolled,) or what Tony
calls a "wraparound" piece. The corner was also internally
reinforced with a 3" rolled Z.

It appears to me that the Alternate Corner Post required
additional fabrication and installation work for the crews
doing the rebuilding. Not only must the flange be torched
off, but in doing so, the old end ladder mounting locations
were lost in the process (at least on the PMcKY rebuilds.)
I don't see a readily apparent advantage to this design.

Besides the SP and PRR cars previously mentioned, and the
PMcKY SS rebuilds, do we know if any other roads used the
Alternate Corner Post?

Earl Tuson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


Fw: (erielack) Historical Societies Donation

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

Excuse the bandwidth, but this seems like it's worth spreading around . . .

Reply to Joe Jordan at jjordan@...

SGL

----- Original Message -----
From: The Jordans <jjordan@...>
To: Maillist ErieLackawanna <erielack@...>;
<lehighvalleyrr@...>; <mnjrhs@...>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 11:18 AM
Subject: (erielack) Historical Societies Donation


Gentlemen-

This is addressed to those persons who may have a connection to any
railroad historical societies that may be interested in railroad car
donations.

We are in touch with a firm dismantling 177 Fruit Growers Express
mechanical refrigerator cars in Florida and who may be interested in
donating
a portion of these cars to historical societies throughout the country.
If your society would have an interest in the preservation of these cars,
please email me ASAP and I will put you in touch with the dismantling
firm.

Please feel free to forward this message to any other historical society
you feel may have an interest.

Thank you
-Joe Jordan



Re: Atlas N wooden reefers

thompson@...
 

Dennis Rockwell asked:
I don't have a copy of "The Great Yellow Fleet" to check in;
would that be the best source to check? It seems to be
readily available.
Dennis, the problem with the book is that the post-1920 "history" was
compiled (notice I don't say "researched") by Donald Duke, not Jack White,
and is rife with errors. Many photo captions as well as the text contain
gross mistakes.
The book is indeed readily available, but I'd say "user beware." Of
course, if the photo itself tells you what you want, that's fine, but dates
and other info about the photo may be unreliable.
For balance, I should add that the pre-1920 information and photos from
Jack White are excellent, interesting and reliable, though even in that
part of the book, some photo captions show Mr. Duke's fine touch. He was
always a superb publisher in terms of printing and reproduction quality,
but unfortunately his historical approach is often rather careless.
I own and use the book, though always carefully. Richard Hendrickson may
wish to chime in on this point.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Boxcar Identification 101

thompson@...
 

Ben Hom wrote:
2. In all cases except one (KCS), the USRA rebuilds reused the ends;
however, because many (but not all) cars were rebuilt to taller cars,
the ends were increaed in height by several different methods. Some
roads inserted a blank spacer (C&NW, CMO, RI); others used corrugated
sections cut from another end (ATSF, T&P, WAB). A spotting feature
for almost all cars reusing the original ends is an indentation where
the end joins the car side, again from increasing the width of the
carbody. The exception, of course, was the Pennsy Class X26C USRA SS
rebuilds.
The SP rebuilds used a wide "wraparound" piece to extend from the ends
onto the new sides, thus no indent. The Sunshine kit captures this
perfectly.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

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