Date   

Re: The Great Yellow Fleet

thompson@...
 

Schuyler Larrabee writes:
I looked over the book a bit. In the Acknowledgements, it gives credit to
Donald Duke for the last chapter, which leads me to think that Jack White
did the rest. Sounded like DD said he knew the subject matter for that last
chapter, number 6, regarding PFE and SFRD, and he'd do that chapter. Now,
do you know that there are parts of the preceding chapters that are suspect
as to veracity?
Jack White has said that Duke added much modern material as well as
"improving" the photo content from his (Duke's) own collection.
Unfortunately, Duke also did those captions. He may even have written or
rewritten captions for Jack's photos.

How did it come to pass that JW didn't do the whole book? Seems unlike him,
at least by what I see in his other books, and from what I hear of him
personally.
As Jack once said in public, among the bigger mistakes of his life.
Here's how Jack says it happened: Jack had written a piece about the 19th
century cars (as usual for him), fading out after 1900 and with really
nothing past 1920. Duke wanted to publish it but felt it had to be thicker
and have mid-century material to sell adequately. So Duke added same (NOT
only the PFE/SFRD chapters): text, photos, captions.
Richard, in a book review for the Santa Fe society, and I, in a book
review for the UP Streamliner, detailed the errors we found on the SFRD and
PFE parts only, but a knowledgeable person on reefers can find many other
errors. It is really a shame in many ways (including the lame knock-offs of
Champ decal diagrams), particularly since the printing and book production
quality is high as in other Golden West books.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: ATSF Bx44 slogans

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Richard,

Thanks much. As usual, your advice and data are excellent.

I have stashed several Champ sets for slogans that you mentioned other than "Grand Canyon Line" and
"Chief", so it looks like I am in good shape.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Richard Hendrickson wrote:


Richard, and anyone else who knows:

I just completed a model of a Bx44 boxcar, only to discover that I have
very poor documentation on the
slogans.

One of the CLASSIC FREIGHT CARS books has a photo of a Bx44 with a "Chief"
herald. It is quite different
from the herald on the Microscale 1947+ decal sheet, but I think I can
piece together one that is pretty
close (it will take parts of three other slogans!).
The post-1947 style Santa Fe slogans did not change from 1947 to 1959, with
one exception: in 1954, when chair cars were added to the Chief, the words
"All Pullman" were deleted from the bottom line of the "Chief" slogans
(note that in the photo you reference, "All Pullman" has been painted out).
Otherwise, if you're having to cut and paste decals, then the artwork is
incorrect (or the decals actually represent the pre-1947 slogans, which
were quite different in style). I don't have the Microscale set so can't
comment on its accuracy, but the Champ sets for both early and late style
slogan schemes are highly accurate.

There is also a shot of a Bx44 in an article in RMJ from about three years
back which shows "The Grand
Canyon Line" lettering. Again, this lettering is different from the
decals. "The" and "Line" are in
italics, "Line" is below the main lettering, and the whole weight of the
lettering is different.
Garth, that photo showed the GCL slogan as applied to the cars when new,
and it is the 1940-1947 style slogan which had the straight line map on the
other side.

So did any of these cars wear other slogans? Have you any idea what
numbers >might have had with which slogans? As built, did they have the
straight-line >map on the other side?
When new, the Bx-44s got late style straight line maps (which included the
word "Ship") on the right side. Number assignments and (1940-'47 style)
slogans were: Grand Canyon, 138700-138799; Scout, 138800-138899; El
Capitan, 138900-138999; Super Chief, 139000-139099; and Chief,
139100-139199. When the cars were repainted with the later style slogans
and "Ship and Travel..." on the right side, the shops were instructed to
apply the later versions of the same slogan if possible. But often it
wasn't possible; the "Scout" slogan had been dropped, "Texas Chief" and
"San Francisco Chief" added (in 1948 and 1954), and only the largest shops
had stencils for all the slogans. In addition to the photo you cited,
there is photographic evidence for 139138, "Chief," and 139183, "Texas
Chief."

Richard H. Hendrickson


Re: ATSF Bx44 slogans

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard, and anyone else who knows:

I just completed a model of a Bx44 boxcar, only to discover that I have
very poor documentation on the
slogans.

One of the CLASSIC FREIGHT CARS books has a photo of a Bx44 with a "Chief"
herald. It is quite different
from the herald on the Microscale 1947+ decal sheet, but I think I can
piece together one that is pretty
close (it will take parts of three other slogans!).
The post-1947 style Santa Fe slogans did not change from 1947 to 1959, with
one exception: in 1954, when chair cars were added to the Chief, the words
"All Pullman" were deleted from the bottom line of the "Chief" slogans
(note that in the photo you reference, "All Pullman" has been painted out).
Otherwise, if you're having to cut and paste decals, then the artwork is
incorrect (or the decals actually represent the pre-1947 slogans, which
were quite different in style). I don't have the Microscale set so can't
comment on its accuracy, but the Champ sets for both early and late style
slogan schemes are highly accurate.

There is also a shot of a Bx44 in an article in RMJ from about three years
back which shows "The Grand
Canyon Line" lettering. Again, this lettering is different from the
decals. "The" and "Line" are in
italics, "Line" is below the main lettering, and the whole weight of the
lettering is different.
Garth, that photo showed the GCL slogan as applied to the cars when new,
and it is the 1940-1947 style slogan which had the straight line map on the
other side.

So did any of these cars wear other slogans? Have you any idea what
numbers >might have had with which slogans? As built, did they have the
straight-line >map on the other side?
When new, the Bx-44s got late style straight line maps (which included the
word "Ship") on the right side. Number assignments and (1940-'47 style)
slogans were: Grand Canyon, 138700-138799; Scout, 138800-138899; El
Capitan, 138900-138999; Super Chief, 139000-139099; and Chief,
139100-139199. When the cars were repainted with the later style slogans
and "Ship and Travel..." on the right side, the shops were instructed to
apply the later versions of the same slogan if possible. But often it
wasn't possible; the "Scout" slogan had been dropped, "Texas Chief" and
"San Francisco Chief" added (in 1948 and 1954), and only the largest shops
had stencils for all the slogans. In addition to the photo you cited,
there is photographic evidence for 139138, "Chief," and 139183, "Texas
Chief."

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: The Great Yellow Fleet

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

Did you intend to say something here . .. ???

SGL

----- Original Message -----
From: <raildata@aol.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] The Great Yellow Fleet





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ATSF Bx44 slogans

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Richard, and anyone else who knows:

I just completed a model of a Bx44 boxcar, only to discover that I have very poor documentation on the
slogans.

One of the CLASSIC FREIGHT CARS books has a photo of a Bx44 with a "Chief" herald. It is quite different
from the herald on the Microscale 1947+ decal sheet, but I think I can piece together one that is pretty
close (it will take parts of three other slogans!).

There is also a shot of a Bx44 in an article in RMJ from about three years back which shows "The Grand
Canyon Line" lettering. Again, this lettering is different from the decals. "The" and "Line" are in
italics, "Line" is below the main lettering, and the whole weight of the lettering is different. The
Microscale decal is closer to that used on the Bx52s (which I am also doing).

I have to say that my Microscale sheets are looking a bit like a piece of cheese, with several slogans
already used on cars now long gone. Perhaps the needed decals were there, and I used them several years
ago before I cared much about accuracy. I certainly could buy more sets, but it will be a while before I
can get to a hobby shop.

So did any of these cars wear other slogans? Have you any idea what numbers might have had with which
slogans? As built, did they have the straight-line map on the other side?

Thanks much.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Re: The Great Yellow Fleet

raildata@...
 


Re: New Member

Bill Welch <bwelch@...>
 

I would refer Don to the results of the survey that RailModel Journal did a couple of years ago regarding styrene freight cars for the era we love. Two that stand out are the 1932 Standard Steel boxcar and the alternate standard two bay offset twin hopper

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 5/27/02, at 2:44 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

Don Winter...a new member...asks:


I am new to the list, interested in N&W Steam era. I hope I am in the
right
place.
Interested in the N&W in the steam era? Yep, this is the place.

May I also ask a question about passenger cars of this era? I would
like to know of the major inexpensive HO plastic passenger cars, which
brands might be better suited behind steam engines. Rivarossi, Athearn,
Con-Cor, and IHC make rtr cars already painted and letterd for the N&W.
Any
opinions about their quality. None of the above etc?
Now...with regard to passenger cars, you need to join the Passengerr Car
List:

PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com

I promise to talk
about frieght cars from here on out!
Great!

My true ulterior motive is to see if I can find a freight car of
reasonable
demand to injection mold in my machines. Thanks for putting up with me!
Ah. Well, now, an immediate choice for the eastern modeler would be the N&W
55 ton 2 bay hopper, class HL...which went all over the eastern US except,
possibly, Florida. Plans are available in the book Norfolk & Western Coal
Cars and these cars lasted from their construction beginning in '37 until
they were transferred into class H9 during major repairs in the 50s.

Mike Brock



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USRA 55-ton hopper

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

Accurail does this in P&WV. No. 3085, to be precise. Accurail Stock No
2519.

Is this accurate or bogus?

SGL


Wish List

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Don Winter asks about the resin wish list:

I'd like to see that list. Is it in the files section etc?
It is now. While the list was originally designed to reflect interest in
resin cars...thus, not those that might be owned by multiples of railroads
as is sometimes considered required for plastic cars...it might be useful
for potential car builders.

Mike Brock


The Great Yellow Fleet

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

Hey Tony Thompson

I printed out an email you sent out last week (Friday) about this book,
which recited some information you have posted before about the reliability
of the information contained therein. I wanted to put it in the book so
that I'd have some idea of what the "problem" with the book is when I look
to it for reference, rather than as is usually the case, remembering that
there was "something not right" about it, but not recalling what it was . .
.

I looked over the book a bit. In the Acknowledgements, it gives credit to
Donald Duke for the last chapter, which leads me to think that Jack White
did the rest. Sounded like DD said he knew the subject matter for that last
chapter, number 6, regarding PFE and SFRD, and he'd do that chapter. Now,
do you know that there are parts of the preceding chapters that are suspect
as to veracity? Or is there a reason to put a big yellow sheet in the book
at page 149, that says, like on the ancient maps, "Beyond here lie dragons .
. . "

How did it come to pass that JW didn't do the whole book? Seems unlike him,
at least by what I see in his other books, and from what I hear of him
personally.

Or is this too messy a story for mixed company?

SGL


Re: Er...uh...1900-1960, guys

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor sez:

The cars in question were built in 1959-1960 Mike. I think the
information therefore is relevant to us.
When I was traipsing around Laramie in the 80s trying to touch UP steam
engine 8444, I took many photos of various UP GS gons...most built during
the 50s. Are discussions about the use of these cars during the 80s within
the scope of the STMFC? No. Only those discussions about their activities
before 1961. It's by definition.

Time to move on.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: New Member

Tom Gloger
 

--- Don Winter <guaruba@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
My true ulterior motive is to see if I can find a freight
car of reasonable demand to injection mold in my machines.
It seems to me there's a lack of 40' trussrod boxcars.
I'll let others suggest which would be most worthy.

=====
- Tom Gloger e-mail: mailto:tomgloger@yahoo.com
web page: http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.tgloger
____Content_below_this_line_is_from_Yahoo!,_not_from_me!____

__________________________________________________
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Re: New Member

Don Winter <guaruba@...>
 

Ian, this helps. I am also the mold maker and the real "problem" isn't
rivits but picking something justifyable. I'll keep chatting and someday
something will jump out I am sure.

I'd like to see that list. Is it in the files section etc?

Don Winter


Re: New Member

Don Winter <guaruba@...>
 

It does not have to be N&W, but I need to come up to speed in HO having been
a narrow gauger all my life. It is refreshing to "play" with super power
and stuff like that for a change.

Don Winter


Re: Er...uh...1900-1960, guys

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Mike,
It's my fault. I posted the post 60 info. I will try to refrain from
thinking of this group when looking at the CGW lists.
Clark
Mike Brock wrote:

Dave Husman notes:

Wine is still moved in carload quanities in railcars off the west
coast to the Midwest and East coast.
Dave's statement is innocent enough...but, we are getting out of bounds.
1900-1960, guys.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


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Re: New Member

ian clasper <ian@...>
 

Hi Don

If you are looking for projects, our illustrious leader (you listening Mike)
gathered a list of most wanted freight cars.

Personally, I would take a look at a welded car for your first venture. This
would allow you to enter the market without the expense of adding a huge
amount of rivets to the mold and testing the skill and patience of you mold
maker.

My favourites that are not currently available too todays high standard are
the Milw Ribside boxcars built 1944 & 1948 boxcar (Ok MDC makes this car,
however the model dates from the 1950s, it is undersize, has modeled on
details and is generally crude) The Milw modelers would go nuts for such a
car, never mind the rest of us !.
The Pennsy G31a, G31b & G31d welded gondola (Pennsy had 1000s plus Pennsy
sells).
Milw Ribside caboose, this has only been available in Brass, and again would
be popular with the MILW modeler.

There is a miriad of other projects to tackle once your established, such as
the N&W twin bay hoppers suggested by Mike. As for the N&W Triple hoppers
suggested by Tim, the H2 / H2a / H3 have been made in plastic by Eastern Car
Works. I did here some major critisism about these however these are already
out there. The H10s have not been covered in either Resin or Plastic,
however these cars arrived at the dusk of the steam era (and this list).

Hope this helps
Ian Clasper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Winter" <guaruba@cfl.rr.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] New Member


My true ulterior motive is to see if I can find a freight car of
reasonable
demand to injection mold in my machines. Thanks for putting up with me!

Don Winter


Re: Er...uh...1900-1960, guys

thompson@...
 

Tim said:
The cars in question were built in 1959-1960 Mike. I think the
information therefore is relevant to us.
The statement didn't refer to those particular cars; and post-1960
operations (as opposed to car history) seem kinda "out of bounds" to me. Of
course, YMMV and I would accept the list manager's decision on this.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Er...uh...1900-1960, guys

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 02:47 PM 5/27/2002, you wrote:
Dave Husman notes:

Wine is still moved in carload quanities in railcars off the west
coast to the Midwest and East coast.
Dave's statement is innocent enough...but, we are getting out of bounds.
1900-1960, guys.
The cars in question were built in 1959-1960 Mike. I think the
information therefore is relevant to us.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@attbi.com>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: New Member

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Mike Brock's prayers may be answered --

My true ulterior motive is to see if I can find a freight car
of reasonable demand to injection mold in my machines.
Ah. Well, now, an immediate choice for the eastern modeler would be the N&W
55 ton 2 bay hopper, class HL...which went all over the eastern US except,
possibly, Florida. Plans are available in the book Norfolk & Western Coal
Cars and these cars lasted from their construction beginning in '37 until
they were transferred into class H9 during major repairs in the 50s.
Myself, I'd prefer one of the N&W 3 bay hoppers. But any easy to
build N&W hopper car model would be a blessing. There probably are
not that many N&W modelers, but they will all need long coal drags.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@attbi.com>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: New Member

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Oops, scanned so fast I didn't see the word "passenger", assumed it was
freight cars he was asking about.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

184541 - 184560 of 192836