Date   

Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 7, 2009, at 5:10 AM, asychis@... wrote:

Richard writes:

"The Q was a "western" railroad only from the perspective of
easterners who
think
the west starts at the Mississippi River. However, for all of us
true westerners, the west begins at the Front Range. Period. Denver
and Cheyenne are west, but only barely. I mean to take nothing away
from the Burlington, which was in many ways an admirable railroad
(though, it must be said, with some of the ugliest steam locomotives
ever conceived). But a western railroad? Emphatically not.

So the Q's slogan Everywhere West was just a PR department ploy? :^)













In a word, yes. Also, I believe, a response to the UP's "Serves All
the West," which was a bit of an exaggeraion but not much - certainly
by comparison. Both slogans began to appear on box and auto cars at
about the same time ca. 1936-'37. In January, 1940, all such claims
were trumped by the Santa Fe's system map, showing a main line that
ran from Chicago to San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco with
diverging lines to almost everywhere in between from Denver to
Galveston. The SP/T&NO could have mounted a similar promotional
campaign on its freight cars but didn't, though it certainly
emphasized the vast and diverse area it served - from Portland to New
Orleans - in its print advertising.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

Dave Nelson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I thought that according to New Yorker magazine, "the West" bagan at
the Hudson :-)

Dennis
What else would one expect from New Yorkers?

FWIW, there really isn't a simple answer to EXACTLY where the west begins
but in general terms I think the best answer is somewhere whithin the
diagonal region along the front range, most of which was once populated by
Bison, and east of where the mountains begin: too dry for farming, too flat
to call the Rockies. Works from west Texas on the Rio Grande to west of
Edmonton. From the West (and north of the Red River) to the Missisippi are
the Great Plains. The Ozarks get in the way for a straight line boundary so
I personally have no issue with describing them as southern... as well as
anything south of the Ohio / Potomac.

Dave Nelson


Geographic Proof and a return to frt cars please

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Now, before we terminate this very enlightening thread...who started all this anyhow?...I will now present indisputable proof that I...as usual...am correct [ wonder what I said ]. Referring to non other than Jeff Aley's [ had to get Jeff on board ] favorite Rock Island...and if you can't trust your favorite RR who can you trust?...on pg 912/913 of the Official Guide, March 1952..."Rock Island Lines Serve 14 WESTERN States"

Count them: New Mexico, Texas, Col, Kansas, Oklahoma...etc., etc.

Of course, there IS the Frisco...the St. Louis San Francisco Railway Co...which does not go further west than Floydada Texas so just how much one can trust a RR remains to be seen.

And now...donning my Head Judge robes...tattered as they might be......now that we've solved the geographic argument...again...time to mercifully return to frt cars.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on geography?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Andy Carlson says:

I live in Southern California, just 80 miles up the coast from LA, and up the road from me (10-12 miles) you will find several species of conifers normally associated in Richard's favorite part of California (Northern). Big Cone Douglass Fir; Sugar Pine; Ponderosa and Jeffrey Pines; Incense Cedar; Limber Pine; and a Spruce or 2 I haven't identified yet. Search out the Modoc Plateau in Northern California and see xeric landscapes which make many areas of Southern California look lush by comparison. .
True enough. I noted several yrs ago that I could take a photo of a RR incuding the background scenery in FL, put it with ten others from states as far north as PA and you would not be able to pick out the FL one. Note: FL has more pine trees than palms. FL has more oak trees than palms. The point, however, is that if I wandered outside in West Palm I doubt that I would say, "I must be near Pittsburgh or if I wandered outside in Tacoma, or perhaps east [ not in the East ] about 20 miles I don't think I'd say, "I must be in southern Cal". Oregon and even Wash obviously have arid areas...been there...but not quite so arid as Death Valley. BTW, even Maine has a desert.

"Dig a hole down to sea level at Florida's highest point, and a trans-planted California Coastal Redwood would have a view of the state"
Yep, flat as a pancake...although we do have several peaks in the 300+ ft range. Highest is Britten Hill...345 ft.

Now, rather surprising, I have been told by an ex CSX loco engineer...and the guy is legit [ he presents at Prototype Rails ]...that the steepest grade between Tampa and some place in South Carolina is just east of Tampa...around 1%. There is a "ridge" that runs north/south down the peninsula just to the west of Orlando beginning somewhere around Ocala { I guess }. I'm guessing that the general elevation change is probably around 250 ft in about a mile.

Mike Brock


no prototype hopper

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Armand Premo

We can list the merits of all the hoppers available. One of the best has no
prototype.

KL> Now which one is this?

Athearns ribbed hopper!


Mopac hoppers away from home

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jerry Michels writes...I'm stunned...something about frt cars:

Mike do you have any additional information on MP hoppers in "captive"
service? I model the MP in the Southern Illinois coal fields and am always
looking for information on MP coal traffic in the 1950s.
First, if you don't have Burlington Bulletin #35 you need to get it because it includes quite a bit of info on the other RRs serving the southern Illinois coal fields. Mind you, this is a 254 pg book...not your common small sized bulletin.

I have noticed quite a few photos of Mopac hoppers on UP tracks including in Laramie. There's the unexpected shot of a whole string of 3 bays on the Santa Fe in Cal. But, since you are modeling Southern Illinois, you should know that coal carrying cars of all the RR's there were mixed together to some degree. That's not to say you wouldn't see solid trains of Q cars in a Q train but others would be mixed in. Photos confirm this. As I noted before, the mines there were not RR owned [ although Q owned one ] and mine owners shipped where they shipped. That necessarily put Q cars on B&O, C&EI, NYC, and Mopac tracks and vice versa.

There's a shot you might find useful in the Bulletin showing Q engine 4999 north of Centralia with a string of MTs heading south [ not TO the South...just south...whew ] to the mines around Herrin Junction. 4 of the first 5 cars are Mopac 3 bays.There's also a shot of Q engine 6101 heading north with 85 loads of coal at Litchfield. First car is a Mopac 2 bay.

Mike Brock


Coal Car Models and Operations

NicholasF
 

It seems that the operational aspects of coal traffic and the models for all railroads have generated a great deal of interest on this list. It might be worth taking this accumulated knowledge and dispersing it via the railroad historical societies' modeling publications (a la Bill Welch's excellent FGE supplement that was featured as part of the PRRTHS, ACL/SAL and BORRRHS Modeler Mags.)

If anyone is interested in coming down to go through the 42 filing cabinets of the B&ORRHS Archives for research on something like this, please let me know off list and we can arrange some times to open the building.

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society
http://www.borhs.org


Re: Watertown MN 1954 Waybills

Thomas Baker
 

Yes, the gons. Wouldn't it have been very difficu;t tp shovel coal from a hopper into one of the typical Midwestern coal sheds?

Tom



Mike, many of the midwest coal roads, such as the CB&Q used gons for coal traffic. Labor was cheap to shovel out the cars, and the
cars could be used for other things besides coal, sand or gravel.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Alternate Standard Hopper Cars...or "Don't Cry For Me, Western Modelers"

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

A.T.;

You "O" guys get all the breaks! I am not kidding. You guys have some super
models to work with.

Thanks for all that info.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
proto48er
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 5:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Alternate Standard Hopper Cars...or "Don't Cry For Me,
Western Modelers"



Elden -

You need to specify a scale when you talk about AAR Alternate Standard offset
side double hoppers! We are swimming in them in "O" scale!

PSC has imported several brass models of these AAR Alternate Standard double
hoppers, including PSC #16061 with flat ends, PSC #16057 with oval notched
ends, PSC #16055 with oval Drednaught ends, PSC # ? with peaked ends, and PSC
# ? with plain oval ends. Rich Yoder has also imported each of these cars
again in brass, as well as a great WLE/ATSF 60-ton AAR Alternate Standard
offset side hopper that is a couple of inches taller than the C&O cars -
looks great next to them!

Only Precision Manufacturing Co. of San Antonio (no relation to PSC) made a
brass kit in 1973 for an AAR Alternate Standard triple offset side hopper car
- apparently a CN or CP prototype.

What we have TOO FEW of is the AAR Standard car! Only PSC imported a short
run of AAR Standard double offset side hopper cars a few years ago. PSC
#17213 was the flat end car, and PSC #17215 was the round end car. They also
imported PSC # 17217, a triple offset side car at the same time.

Rich Yoder has also imported an excellent series of AC&F Type 7 6,000 gallon
tank cars with single and double domes.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Gatwood,
Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Mike;

The fact is, unassailable IMO, the car with the greatest number of
prototypes NEVER made in model form that I'm aware of is the C&O 50
ton, offset side 2 bay hopper car...the AAR Alternate Standard design.
C&O had about 29,000. Yes, they had more of those cars than UP had of
all their box cars. Add to that, about 2000 Erie, about 750 NKP, and
700 NP cars of the same AAR Alt Standard of the same cu ft plus some
lessor RRs and other similar designs of different cu ft including,
OHMYGOSH, 200 Santa Fe's. The number of models produced? Some might argue
that there were different forms.
True, the end plate for the C&O hoppers included about 4 different forms.
There is nothing complicated about these end plates....
Elden Gatwood


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:


[ I observe here that contrary to Dr Hendrickson's belief, the West appears to begin at the
Mississippi River.]
I thought that according to New Yorker magazine, "the West" bagan at the Hudson :-)

Dennis


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

roblmclear <rob.mclear2@...>
 

All

This is great stuff I join the group to learn about freight cars and for extra's I get a geography lesson on the U.S. Now if you really want to know where the West is, go to L.A. or S.F. and go about 4000 miles in a boat or a plane and you will find the real west.

Rob Mclear
Brisbane Australia.

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., John Stokes <ggstokes@> wrote:


<snip>
The question is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include
the CB&Q as a Western railroad.
<snip, snap, snup>

What was that slogan on Burlington boxcars? "Everywhere East"? :-)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

Mark
 

Yes the off mix of chemistry was painted and sold for appliances, remember it well. Summer of 1977 took a send out on the shear line. This line sat just west of the paint line. Cars were loaded just south of these lines on the east side of the main building. The B&O had a line which switched our finished products. One line came inside, mainly for gondolas and coil cars, and the line outside for boxcars.
I recall 40' boxcars back there. All of this is gone, the buildings were razed last summer.

We now make stainless and when all the ferro/moly things were mentioned it got my interest. We make a 434 grade which has moly.

Mark Morgan

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, water.kresse@... <water.kresse@...> wrote:

From: water.kresse@... <water.kresse@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]
To: STMFC@...
Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 10:02 PM





















I believe the "bulk volumn" of Ferro-manganese changed when they started to use small electric furnances and blew oxygen into it to get rid of other trace alloys.  My reference to it being shipped in containers was in the 50s I believe.  With today's "no carbon" steels, that are blown clean and rebuilt to spec's, the definition of trace elements has changed and the amount of carbon allowed has been reduced.  In the late-60s the auto companies got "killed" with cheap re-rephos, higher strength steels . . . . because of other elements that were there "sometimes."  Steels for the auto industry from the 1930s were nowhere as consistent as todays steels.  The days of the 1970s 1006-8 "low-carbon" steels became the 1004 steels which became even lesser carbon steels that had to be rebuilt up steels.



Back in the 50s steel was more an art than a precise science project.  If automotive sheet didn't have the ductility or weldability specified, it was sold to the appliance industry folks at a loss.



Al Kresse



Retired automotive  body structural engineer and not a met chemist



----- Original Message -----

From: "Mark Morgan" <bnonut@yahoo. com>

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com

Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 6:10:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]



Excellent remarks from Mr. Gatwood and Mr. Thompson.



I have seen ferromoly in small barrels@ 100# and in bulk sacks on pallets. Ferro manganese is usually hauled by truck or rail. I have seen twin offset hoppers with this load. We use these in grades at AK Steel/Mansfield Works. Back a few years ago a test was sent to the lab and additions were made at tap.

That would be our era.



Sincerely, Mark Morgan



Layed off Steelworker/ EAF operator



--- On Mon, 7/6/09, Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturep ress.com> wrote:



From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturep ress.com>

Subject: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com

Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:10 PM



    

            

            



      

        Gatwood, Elden wrote:



The U.S. imported 3.5mt of manganese in 1955, produced 162,000 mt  


domestically, and used 2.25 mt in the steel industry.  Do you think  


the latter is processed ferro-manganese? . . . Do you also think the  


15,500 tons were


ferro-molybdenum?


Elden, the reason for ferroalloys is to make alloy additions to  



the molten steel easy. Varying melting points, densities, and other  



issues mean that you don't want to add pure elements directly; and in  



any case, purity is not generally the issue anyway. The ferroalloy  



maker handles all those melting point, etc. problems and delivers a  



blend you can dump straight into a ladle or furnace and be sure it  



will dissolve correctly.



Lastly, would either or both be in powdered form, and therefore  


require covered shipment like Al asked, either box cars in bags  


(which I really doubt for ferro-manganese, due to the volume being  


used) or in covered hoppers?


In the 1950s covered hoppers were not used much for this kind  



of cargo. I disagree with you about the use of bags. I've watched  



entire pallets of bagged ferroalloy additions dumped straight into the  



furnace. Yep, pallet, strapping, paper bags and all. In a 200-ton  



heat, those "extra" things really don't count (!), and when you think  



about what even one-tenth of a percent amounts to in 200 tons, you  



ain't adding single bags.



         The ferroalloys I've seen close up are pretty chunky pieces,  



far from powder--my recollection is fist-size chunks, and that could  



also be handled at the furnace mouth with a front-end loader or  



equivalent. The convenience of bags is that you have 100-lb. (or  



whatever) units so you know how much to add to bring a heat up to  



whatever composition it's supposed to have. Usually the heat has been  



sampled, the sample checked by the lab, and the word sent back as to  



how close the heat is to the target composition; you then add the  



required amounts.



Anthony Thompson



Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering



University of California, Berkeley



thompsonmarytony@ sbcglobal. net



 



      



    

    

        

        

        

        



        



        

        



      



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Re: Watertown MN 1954 Waybills - "Distillate"?

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Doug and friends,

Distillate is defined as a #3 grade product on Wikipedia. This means one step lower than diesel, which is #2. I'm not sure if Wikipedia is at all clear on this.

In any case, as Doug says, a lot of early farm tractors ran on distillate, as did cream separators, and those marvelous single-cylinder engines with the huge flywheels you see restored at pasture parties. Getting back to railroad topics, the Sacramento Northern's famous car ferry RAMON ran on distillate ( http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/ramon.html ).

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Douglas Harding wrote:

Distillate was a fuel used in early farm tractors, not to mention the first Doodlebugs. Diesel tractors did not become common
until the 60's.
http://www.sdrm.org/history/timeline/distilat.html

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

al_brown03
 

--- In STMFC@..., John Stokes <ggstokes@...> wrote:


<snip>
The question is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include
the CB&Q as a Western railroad.
<snip, snap, snup>

What was that slogan on Burlington boxcars? "Everywhere East"? :-)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

asychis@...
 

Richard writes:

"The Q was a "western" railroad only from the perspective of easterners who
think
the west starts at the Mississippi River. However, for all of us
true westerners, the west begins at the Front Range. Period. Denver
and Cheyenne are west, but only barely. I mean to take nothing away
from the Burlington, which was in many ways an admirable railroad
(though, it must be said, with some of the ugliest steam locomotives
ever conceived). But a western railroad? Emphatically not.

So the Q's slogan Everywhere West was just a PR department ploy? :^)

Jerry Michels
**************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals.
(http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

asychis@...
 

Mike Brock writes:

"None of this, however, explains the Mopac triple hopper operating in
captive
service on the B&O heading back to West Va. for another load. Perhaps B&O
crews couldn't distinguish between B&O and Mopac on the black hopper cars.
Or...maybe Mopac made nicer hopper cars...given that UP also "captured"
some
for use on the branch south of Provo, UT."

Mike do you have any additional information on MP hoppers in "captive"
service? I model the MP in the Southern Illinois coal fields and am always
looking for information on MP coal traffic in the 1950s.

Jerry Michels

**************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals.
(http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Tim O'Connor
 

Well said, Bob. The great plains states are nothing like Ohio,
Indiana, and parts of Illinois.
True enough. Flat as a pancake...like Florida.
Ummm... you do realize that the Black Hills of South Dakota
include some rather large mountains, right?


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike Brock wrote

I hail from Muskogee, Oklahoma.
Mike, that one brief declaration answers so many questions...

:-) :-) :-)

P.S. The SP was the other railroad you're thinking of that
never went bankrupt in its history. Unlike its somewhat flaky
partner Union Pacific.


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Tim O'Connor
 

Well said, Bob. The great plains states are nothing like Ohio,
Indiana, and parts of Illinois. Richard Hendrickson
My head is swimming.... what does all this have to do with
freight cars??

Look... we talk about coal cars for a good reason -- the single
largest and most vital commodity on US railroads was coal during
the steam era, and it remains so today. It dwarfs agricultural
products by tonnage and ton-miles, and it did so during the STMFC
era as well. Was it such a big commodity on the AT&SF or SP? No.
But let's face it, AT&SF wasn't that important... kind of like
an overgrown version of the Rutland, really... only with cattle
instead of milk.

:-)

Tim O'Connor


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
I don't think so. Neither does Raymond George . . . even stronger evidence exists. There are photos of Katy box cars [ in yellow ] carrying the "well" slogan shot in 1945. There are others shot later, New date: 1954 with no "well"...just "Southwest". To add to that, my 1943 MK&T timetable shows the "Well" and the back cover to the 1944 annual report shows "well". Apparently the "well" was dropped in '46.
That's what I get for believing the Texan who told me the sequence when I asked about it, in relation to a project to decal a box car. Ah, freight cars! Remember when we talked about them a lot on this list? <g>
Note to self: do your own research, don't trust what others (well-meaning as they may be) tell you.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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