Date   

Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:


[ I observe here that contrary to Dr Hendrickson's belief, the West appears to begin at the
Mississippi River.]
I thought that according to New Yorker magazine, "the West" bagan at the Hudson :-)

Dennis


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

roblmclear <rob.mclear2@...>
 

All

This is great stuff I join the group to learn about freight cars and for extra's I get a geography lesson on the U.S. Now if you really want to know where the West is, go to L.A. or S.F. and go about 4000 miles in a boat or a plane and you will find the real west.

Rob Mclear
Brisbane Australia.

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., John Stokes <ggstokes@> wrote:


<snip>
The question is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include
the CB&Q as a Western railroad.
<snip, snap, snup>

What was that slogan on Burlington boxcars? "Everywhere East"? :-)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

Mark
 

Yes the off mix of chemistry was painted and sold for appliances, remember it well. Summer of 1977 took a send out on the shear line. This line sat just west of the paint line. Cars were loaded just south of these lines on the east side of the main building. The B&O had a line which switched our finished products. One line came inside, mainly for gondolas and coil cars, and the line outside for boxcars.
I recall 40' boxcars back there. All of this is gone, the buildings were razed last summer.

We now make stainless and when all the ferro/moly things were mentioned it got my interest. We make a 434 grade which has moly.

Mark Morgan

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, water.kresse@... <water.kresse@...> wrote:

From: water.kresse@... <water.kresse@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]
To: STMFC@...
Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 10:02 PM





















I believe the "bulk volumn" of Ferro-manganese changed when they started to use small electric furnances and blew oxygen into it to get rid of other trace alloys.  My reference to it being shipped in containers was in the 50s I believe.  With today's "no carbon" steels, that are blown clean and rebuilt to spec's, the definition of trace elements has changed and the amount of carbon allowed has been reduced.  In the late-60s the auto companies got "killed" with cheap re-rephos, higher strength steels . . . . because of other elements that were there "sometimes."  Steels for the auto industry from the 1930s were nowhere as consistent as todays steels.  The days of the 1970s 1006-8 "low-carbon" steels became the 1004 steels which became even lesser carbon steels that had to be rebuilt up steels.



Back in the 50s steel was more an art than a precise science project.  If automotive sheet didn't have the ductility or weldability specified, it was sold to the appliance industry folks at a loss.



Al Kresse



Retired automotive  body structural engineer and not a met chemist



----- Original Message -----

From: "Mark Morgan" <bnonut@yahoo. com>

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com

Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 6:10:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]



Excellent remarks from Mr. Gatwood and Mr. Thompson.



I have seen ferromoly in small barrels@ 100# and in bulk sacks on pallets. Ferro manganese is usually hauled by truck or rail. I have seen twin offset hoppers with this load. We use these in grades at AK Steel/Mansfield Works. Back a few years ago a test was sent to the lab and additions were made at tap.

That would be our era.



Sincerely, Mark Morgan



Layed off Steelworker/ EAF operator



--- On Mon, 7/6/09, Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturep ress.com> wrote:



From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturep ress.com>

Subject: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com

Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:10 PM



    

            

            



      

        Gatwood, Elden wrote:



The U.S. imported 3.5mt of manganese in 1955, produced 162,000 mt  


domestically, and used 2.25 mt in the steel industry.  Do you think  


the latter is processed ferro-manganese? . . . Do you also think the  


15,500 tons were


ferro-molybdenum?


Elden, the reason for ferroalloys is to make alloy additions to  



the molten steel easy. Varying melting points, densities, and other  



issues mean that you don't want to add pure elements directly; and in  



any case, purity is not generally the issue anyway. The ferroalloy  



maker handles all those melting point, etc. problems and delivers a  



blend you can dump straight into a ladle or furnace and be sure it  



will dissolve correctly.



Lastly, would either or both be in powdered form, and therefore  


require covered shipment like Al asked, either box cars in bags  


(which I really doubt for ferro-manganese, due to the volume being  


used) or in covered hoppers?


In the 1950s covered hoppers were not used much for this kind  



of cargo. I disagree with you about the use of bags. I've watched  



entire pallets of bagged ferroalloy additions dumped straight into the  



furnace. Yep, pallet, strapping, paper bags and all. In a 200-ton  



heat, those "extra" things really don't count (!), and when you think  



about what even one-tenth of a percent amounts to in 200 tons, you  



ain't adding single bags.



         The ferroalloys I've seen close up are pretty chunky pieces,  



far from powder--my recollection is fist-size chunks, and that could  



also be handled at the furnace mouth with a front-end loader or  



equivalent. The convenience of bags is that you have 100-lb. (or  



whatever) units so you know how much to add to bring a heat up to  



whatever composition it's supposed to have. Usually the heat has been  



sampled, the sample checked by the lab, and the word sent back as to  



how close the heat is to the target composition; you then add the  



required amounts.



Anthony Thompson



Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering



University of California, Berkeley



thompsonmarytony@ sbcglobal. net



 



      



    

    

        

        

        

        



        



        

        



      



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Watertown MN 1954 Waybills - "Distillate"?

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Doug and friends,

Distillate is defined as a #3 grade product on Wikipedia. This means one step lower than diesel, which is #2. I'm not sure if Wikipedia is at all clear on this.

In any case, as Doug says, a lot of early farm tractors ran on distillate, as did cream separators, and those marvelous single-cylinder engines with the huge flywheels you see restored at pasture parties. Getting back to railroad topics, the Sacramento Northern's famous car ferry RAMON ran on distillate ( http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/ramon.html ).

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Douglas Harding wrote:

Distillate was a fuel used in early farm tractors, not to mention the first Doodlebugs. Diesel tractors did not become common
until the 60's.
http://www.sdrm.org/history/timeline/distilat.html

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

al_brown03
 

--- In STMFC@..., John Stokes <ggstokes@...> wrote:


<snip>
The question is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include
the CB&Q as a Western railroad.
<snip, snap, snup>

What was that slogan on Burlington boxcars? "Everywhere East"? :-)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

asychis@...
 

Richard writes:

"The Q was a "western" railroad only from the perspective of easterners who
think
the west starts at the Mississippi River. However, for all of us
true westerners, the west begins at the Front Range. Period. Denver
and Cheyenne are west, but only barely. I mean to take nothing away
from the Burlington, which was in many ways an admirable railroad
(though, it must be said, with some of the ugliest steam locomotives
ever conceived). But a western railroad? Emphatically not.

So the Q's slogan Everywhere West was just a PR department ploy? :^)

Jerry Michels
**************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals.
(http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

asychis@...
 

Mike Brock writes:

"None of this, however, explains the Mopac triple hopper operating in
captive
service on the B&O heading back to West Va. for another load. Perhaps B&O
crews couldn't distinguish between B&O and Mopac on the black hopper cars.
Or...maybe Mopac made nicer hopper cars...given that UP also "captured"
some
for use on the branch south of Provo, UT."

Mike do you have any additional information on MP hoppers in "captive"
service? I model the MP in the Southern Illinois coal fields and am always
looking for information on MP coal traffic in the 1950s.

Jerry Michels

**************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals.
(http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Tim O'Connor
 

Well said, Bob. The great plains states are nothing like Ohio,
Indiana, and parts of Illinois.
True enough. Flat as a pancake...like Florida.
Ummm... you do realize that the Black Hills of South Dakota
include some rather large mountains, right?


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike Brock wrote

I hail from Muskogee, Oklahoma.
Mike, that one brief declaration answers so many questions...

:-) :-) :-)

P.S. The SP was the other railroad you're thinking of that
never went bankrupt in its history. Unlike its somewhat flaky
partner Union Pacific.


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Tim O'Connor
 

Well said, Bob. The great plains states are nothing like Ohio,
Indiana, and parts of Illinois. Richard Hendrickson
My head is swimming.... what does all this have to do with
freight cars??

Look... we talk about coal cars for a good reason -- the single
largest and most vital commodity on US railroads was coal during
the steam era, and it remains so today. It dwarfs agricultural
products by tonnage and ton-miles, and it did so during the STMFC
era as well. Was it such a big commodity on the AT&SF or SP? No.
But let's face it, AT&SF wasn't that important... kind of like
an overgrown version of the Rutland, really... only with cattle
instead of milk.

:-)

Tim O'Connor


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
I don't think so. Neither does Raymond George . . . even stronger evidence exists. There are photos of Katy box cars [ in yellow ] carrying the "well" slogan shot in 1945. There are others shot later, New date: 1954 with no "well"...just "Southwest". To add to that, my 1943 MK&T timetable shows the "Well" and the back cover to the 1944 annual report shows "well". Apparently the "well" was dropped in '46.
That's what I get for believing the Texan who told me the sequence when I asked about it, in relation to a project to decal a box car. Ah, freight cars! Remember when we talked about them a lot on this list? <g>
Note to self: do your own research, don't trust what others (well-meaning as they may be) tell you.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Why so MUCH discussion on geography?

Andy Carlson
 

Well, if we use the model railroader's standard of less typical being accepted, I challenge the quote below.

I live in Southern California, just 80 miles up the coast from LA, and up the road from me (10-12 miles) you will find several species of conifers normally associated in Richard's favorite part of California (Northern). Big Cone Douglass Fir; Sugar Pine; Ponderosa and Jeffrey Pines; Incense Cedar; Limber Pine; and a Spruce or 2 I haven't identified yet. Search out the Modoc Plateau in Northern California and see xeric landscapes which make many areas of Southern California look lush by comparison. .

Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

"Dig a hole down to sea level at Florida's highest point, and a trans-planted California Coastal Redwood would have a view of the state"




________________________________


...don't bring up the foliage. Surely no one thinks the vegetation in
Northern Cal...let alone Oregon and Wash...matches that of Southern Cal.

Mike Brock...it's getting late...fortunately


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

Stokes John
 

This is all well and good, but any Texan knows that The West begins at the border of Fort Worth and extends West to the Pacific Ocean. That would make the Western half of Texas, including Pecos and Lubbock and El Paso, the West, as well as New Mexico and some of the Western half of Oklahoma part of the West. The line of course, bends Westward along the Front Range up to Montana and Wyoming. All that is part of the Real West. Being a Texan myself, and gone to college in Lubbock, I know that part is not in the Great Plains, but sitss up on the Caprock, and get those awful dust storms and chill winds from the Great Plains and Canada, two foreign lands.

The questions is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include the CB&Q as a Western railroad. You are right, Richard, that for the most part it is what is often called one of the Granger Roads. But that part of the Q that included the C&S and went into West Texas, Colorado and into the Rockies ventures into Western territory. But what is the West anyhow? Is it purely geographical?, or in railroad terms defined by the type of products carried? or is it more topographical? Or is it a state of mind? Or does it really mattter in the discussion of STMFC?

All I know is that I live in the West for sure now, but a special part of the West called the Great Pacific Northwest. The rest is just "the other parts" of the US.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA

To: STMFC@...
From: schuyler.larrabee@...
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 00:13:56 -0400
Subject: [STMFC] Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.


























Mr Brock, making a valiant attempt to define some areas of the US, wrote:



'[I]f we are going to describe sections of the country, we have to step back a bit and do all the
sections. IOW, it's not just the west...say, beginning at Denver...and the east. That doesn't allow

any distinction between New York and Omaha or St. Louis and Charleston and, I assure you there is a

great distinction. So...let's try this. New England: To the north and east of New York. The East:

New York, PA, West Va, VA, New Jersey, Delaware [ wherever that is ], DC and Maryland. The South:

South of VA including Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Jawga, the Carolinas but

not Florida. The Florida: Florida. A difficult problem because half of the population south of

Orlando belongs in the East while half of the population north of Orlando belongs in the South. Half

of the rest has a uniquely Miami feel...whatever that is. The Midwest: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois,

Michigan, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin and the Dakotas.

Well...where else could we put the Dakotas? No offense...but are they still there? The Southwest:

Texas and New Mexico [ although many Texicans believe they are simply their own country ]. The

Mountain West: Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Idaho, and Nevada. The Far West: Arizona, Cal, OR,

and Wash.



"I don't know what to do with Kentucky. "



And I find now, a really good reason I have kept this book I bought ages ago, entitled "Atlas of

Traffic Maps" published by the LaSalle Extension University in 1924, definitely in the steam freight

cars era.



The first map I find is the "Express Map of the Unitied States," subtitled, "Interstate Commerce

Commission, Sustem of Blocks and Zones for the Formulation of Express Rates," which I will not try

to relate in print (nor will I scan this, as it would destroy the book), except to say that Zone I

is nominally New England, NY, PA, OH, IN, the lower third of MI, and a shape resembling IL. Zone II

is everything south of that group, split along the Mississippi, more or less. Zone III is the

flatland states plus the UP of MI, and the upper 2/3 of lower MI. The western boundary between Zone

III and Zone IV is a line running straight north from El Paso. Zone IV is the mountains. The

boundary between IV and V is a line running northward from the Gulf of Calfornia, and then

zigzagging along the eastern side of the San Joaquin Valley. About the southern border of Oregon,

the line goes east to the eastern side of Oregon and Washington. The entire map is based on a

rectangular subdivision of the country, including in the east, where the cartisian division of the

land is not common.



Next are a few interesting maps, the "Inland Waterways Map of the United States," followed by the

"Steamship Routes of the World."



But then we come to what I got this book out for, the Railway Association, Bureau, and Committee

maps, which includes the "Railroad Freight Classification Territory" map. That's followed by

several other things:



General Tariff Publishing Association Territories, subdivided into the "Major Railroad Freight

Association Territories," and the "Minor, Local and Specific Freight Association Territories."



"Individual Tariff Publishing Association Territories," subdivided into the "Canadian, New England

and Trunk Line Territories," the "Central Freights Association Territory," the "Southern Freight

Association Territory," the "Western Trunk Line Committee Territory," and the (deep breath) "North

Pacific Coast, And Pacific Freight Tariff Bureaus, and Transcontinental Freight Bureau Territories."



Now, there are some "intrastate or minor territories" which we will not get into . . l



But we do want to establish the "Interstate or Major Territories," I think. So. The major

classification territories are:

Canadian

Official

Western

Mexican

Southern.



The Canadian and Mexican territories are simply too obvious to bother with, so the division of the

US is still to be established. It is thus:



Official Territory: all of New England, NY, PA, OH, IN, WVA, MD, DE, the lower peninsula of MI, and

the northern part of VA. VA is divided along a undoubtedly significant (but obscure to me) line

peeling off the southern boundary of WVA, grazing the southern side of Richmond, and ending near or

at Newport News. And also, IN is divided along a similar line, leaving the Mississippi at the rail

line between Galesburg and Streator (RI?)which is in the Official Territory, and heading to the Lake

Michigan coast just south of Chicago.



Southern Territory, everything south of the Official Territory, and east of the Mississippi River.



Western Territory, everything else.



There are several "STATE" territories, in VA, GA, AL, MS, IA, NB, IL.



[ I observe here that contrary to Dr Hendrickson's belief, the West appears to begin at the

Mississippi River.]



But that's not all. The next map is the "Major Railroad Freight Association Territories." This is

considerably more complex. Let's begin with Canada, as it's straightforward: The Canadian Freight

Association is divided into the Eastern Lines and Western Lines, by a line running north from Port

Arthur on Lake Superior. Mexico is not addressed.



The previously described Official Territory here is called the Eastern Freight Tariff, which is

subdivided into the New England Freight Association, western boundary the NYS line, more or less;

the Trunk Line Association, western boundary south from Buffalo, through Pittsburgh, just south of

Wheeling, and then along the Ohio River; and the Central Freight Association, the remainder of the

Official Territory.



The Southern Territory becomes the Southern Freight Association, with Richmond Freight Tariff

Bureau, more or less southern VA, NC, and SC (roughly); the Atlanta Freight Bureau, whose western

edge is along the railroad line north from Mobile to Corinth, east of Jackson TN, and up to the Ohio

River. The Louisville Freight Tariff Bureau is the remainder of the Southern Territory



The Western Territory has four major divisions: The Western Trunk Line Committee western border is

along the western side of N and S Dakota, along the front range in CO, and then eastward along the

southern border of OK and MO; the Southwestern Freight Bureau covers TX, LA and Arkansas; the

Pacific Freight Tariff Bureau and the Pacific Coast Freight Bureau are split along a line on the

southern border of Oregon, except for a peninsula of the PFTB that extends northward to the Columbia

River just east of Portland OR. The eastern border of the PFCB is along the summit of the

Bitterroot Mountains. MN and WY are not specifically designated as a bureau but are encompassed (as

are both Pacific Bureaus) by the Transcontinental Freight Bureau.



Here is the point: The US was divided by the Railroads into Territories. These are not

insignificant geographic distinctions. The Steam Freight Cars were operated under this system, to

the best of my knowledge. Routing cars toward their owning road really meant getting them headed

toward the right Territory, and maybe better, toward the right Freight Bureau's territory.



And Mike, Kentucky is in the Southern Territory. Good?



SGL

La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!



E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441)

Database version: 6.12760

http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/


Bob Chapman

seaboard_1966
 

Will Bob Chapman please contact me..

Thanks

Denis Blake
North Hamlet Shops, OH


Re: Alternate Standard Hopper Cars...or "Don't Cry For Me, Western Modelers"

pennsylvania1954
 

Nice catch, Brian! You beat me, but Mike did say "no one" so he must be buying for the whole Tuscan crowd. See you at the bar.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

--- In STMFC@..., "Brian Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:

MIke: I will take you up on that in a few months, Page 46 in Morning Sun's
Pennsy Steam years Volume 3. If you don't have access to that book locally,
I will send you a scan off list tomorrow for verification. The beverage
(not a beer drinker) will be at the outside bar if the weather permits.


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson writes:

Well said, Bob. The great plains states are nothing like Ohio,
Indiana, and parts of Illinois.
True enough. Flat as a pancake...like Florida. Sorry...couldn't resist. Now, now...don't bring up the foliage. Surely no one thinks the vegetation in Northern Cal...let alone Oregon and Wash...matches that of Southern Cal.

Mike Brock...it's getting late...fortunately


Re: CB&Q Hoppers...

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Matt Forsyth says:

"BTW, I have a a few early '50's vintage B&W images of loaded CB&Q composite hoppers parked on a siding in Binghamton, NY, just off the DL&W (Lackawanna) mainline."

Now THAT is a bit strange. Almost weird. They were perhaps lost?

Mike Brock


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bob Heninger says:

You really need to travel more.
True, so true. I'm gonna miss the big steam event in Michigan coming up. Verry annoying.

Many folks who are from the Dakotas (as well as eastern Montana, eastern Wyoming, eastern Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and the Panhandle of Texas) would consider themselves as living on the "Great Plains" of North America, and this region is often referred to as such in many elementary school geography texts.
Yes, yes. Note my response to Tony Thompson. I hail from Muskogee, Oklahoma. Not quite west enough to be on the great plains, though...have to be at least to the 100th meridian as I understand it.


Those of us who live in flyover country, especially North Dakota, are used to such hubris and condescension from our countrymen on the coasts.
Well...if we'd have launched rockets from the Dakotas I guess I'd still be there...

Now, what does this have to do with steam era freight cars?
Come to think of it...I don't know either. Don't anynone tell Jeff Aley...

Mike Brock


Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Tim O'Connor
 

Rod

Yeah, but it's not Lehigh Valley, so Richard must be right!

:-)

Tim O'Connor

FWIW, on page 52 of Gene Deimling's "Southern Pacific
Steam Switchers of the Pacific Lines" shows 0-6-0 1293
switching DT&I 1437, an open top hopper, in Tracy, CA
in 1948.
Rod


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tony Thompson writes:

Cute story, Mike, but AFAIK the "Serves . . . Well" slogan
superseded, not preceded, the "Serves" slogan.
I don't think so. Neither does Raymond George who wrote Missouri Kansas and Texas in Color and co authored Katy Power along with Joe Collias. At the time of publication George was an active contributor to the Katy Flyer... the Katy Historical Society. To add to that his father became VP of Katy operations in '65. IOW, not a casual writer. However, even stronger evidence exists. There are photos of Katy box cars [ in yellow ] carrying the "well" slogan shot in 1945. There are others shot later, New date: 1954 with no "well"...just "Southwest". To add to that, my 1943 MK&T timetable shows the "Well" and the back cover to the 1944 annual report shows "well". Apparently the "well" was dropped in '46. Whether or not the incident really happened will likely never be known. My guess is that perhaps an administrator in another RR may have pointed it out to Katy CEO Sloan. Who knows?

The Katy obviously did some things wrong...as has every RR with the possible exception of the N&W which I don't believe ever went bankrupt or had financial problems. Note...I said "think".

Mike Brock
An Okie from Muskogee on the Katy mainline.

112661 - 112680 of 195639