Date   

Re: Prototype for new resin kits

Brian Chapman <cornbeltroute@...>
 

Tony,

Since you live in the Bay area, since you're a metals engineer (correct term?) and a freight-car historian, thought I'd take a shot in the dark -- so to speak -- and ask you about a STMFC-era ship. (There is a railroad component to the question, too.)

The battleship IOWA is moored (with reserve and/or stricken?) ships some 20 miles up Suisun Bay. She is expected to become a museum ship, as have her three younger sisters before her, apparently at Mare Island.

Over the decades, I've collected much material about the Iowa Class ships, and I have it in the back of my mind to build a water-level model of IOWA in TT scale (the model would be 7'-4.7" long).

Throughout her service life, IOWA visited San Francisco a number of times, I believe. Do you happen to know if Navy berthing and/or drydocks in the area had railroad trackage adjacent to moorings or close by? I've long wondered if rail wouldn't be the most efficient way to resupply the Navy's massive ships, and, in particular, the IOWAs. I'd like to create a diorama of IOWA and such rail service, if it existed.

Thanks much,

Brian

Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa

Was the dense ferro-molybdenum carried in a few containers loaded into gondola cars like ferro- manganese? <<
Could be. But ferroalloys are generally not much more dense than iron. Except probably ferro-tungsten! I've seen the materials in 100-lb. bags, convenient for furnace charging. <
Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley


Re: no prototype hopper

Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
"Athearns ribbed hopper!"

No for two reasons, Ed. First, I wouldn't consider this model "one of the
best hopper models out there", as Armand has characterized. Second, while
there is no prototype by Irv Athearn's design, this model coincidentally is
close not only to PRR Class H31 as Elden pointed out, this model can be used
for Virginian and Rock Island prototypes, as well as a base for Wabash's
later panel sided cars. See posts 26630 and 54902 for more details.


Ben Hom


Re: Geographic Proof and a return to frt cars please

Frank Greene
 

Mike Brock wrote:
Now, before we terminate this very enlightening thread...who started all this anyhow?...I will now present indisputable proof that I...as usual...am correct [ wonder what I said ]. Referring to non other than Jeff Aley's [ had to get Jeff on board ] favorite Rock Island...and if you can't trust your favorite RR who can you trust?...on pg 912/913 of the Official Guide, March 1952..."Rock Island Lines Serve 14 WESTERN States"

Count them: New Mexico, Texas, Col, Kansas, Oklahoma...etc., etc.

Did they include Tennessee? They did come to Memphis and I always think of Tennessee when someone starts a silly argument about where the west starts. Kinda' discredits "indisputable proof," doesn't it?

Risk taker... one who pokes at both the holder of the keys to moderate jail AND his deputy (also see "fool").

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: distillate

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Ed,

Butane was a popular alternative fuel for large highway trucks in the west up into the 1950s. Most brands of trucks were available with an optional butane engine. I believe Hall Scott of Berkeley made many of these power plants. Why butane, I don't know. Maybe butane engines worked better at higher altitudes in the Sierras and the Rockies?

I've never heard of a butane-powered tractor, but it was probably tried at some point.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

ed_mines wrote:

Distillate was a regional, petroleum derived fuel which could be used in tractors.

I watch antique tractor TV shows and every so often thet'll show a tractor which runs on distillate. My recollection is that there are more than a couple of other regional fuels and some tractors could run on more than one fuel . . . .


Re: no prototype hopper

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

The Athearn ribbed twin is remarkably similar to a PRR H31 (no subclass),
although I do not think intended as such. The dimensions are actually pretty
close! They can be upgraded to a pretty nice car.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
ed_mines
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:27 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] no prototype hopper



--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kurt
Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Armand Premo

We can list the merits of all the hoppers available. One of the best
has no prototype.

KL> Now which one is this?
Athearns ribbed hopper!


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jim Dick makes an interesting statement...perhaps assumed but not expressed so well before:

To sum up, I think there is a good argument for the coal cars to roam, but not too far as there seem to be natural barriers.
Snip

All of these would serve to keep cars near home rails. And photos tell much, but not why some of these cars went as far from home as they did.
The key word here is, I think, "near". Going back to a rather simpler example...the N&W...Even when delivering a load of coal off line...say to a port on the Great Lakes...and traveling the last portion on Pennsy or NYC rails north of Columbus, an N&W car would still have traveled 2/3's of the trip at least on N&W rails. When moving a load into northern Illinois, an N&W car would again spend about 2/3 of the trip on N&W rails. Those claiming that N&W hoppers seldom left home rails are correct to the extent that such cars seldom did not return to the "nest" for sustinance...coal. However, from a modeler's perspective, it only depends on what area is being modeled. If Ohio, Illinois, Michigan, or Indiana is that area, N&W, L&N, C&O, Pennsy and NYC coal carrying cars are needed. The further west within that area, the more likelihood of finding IC, Q and Mopac coal carrying cars.

Mike Brock


distillate

ed_mines
 

Distillate was a regional, petroleum derived fuel which could be used in tractors.

I watch antique tractor TV shows and every so often thet'll show a tractor which runs on distillate. My recollection is that there are more than a couple of other regional fuels and some tractors could run on more than one fuel.

Petroleum feedstocks vary considerably in chemical composition and even in appearance. Each refinery is set up to use a specific feed stock.

I worked with coatings for most of my career and found a lot of local regional solvents of similar compositions (and drying times) referenced in trade literature. Petroleum ether, liqroin, Stoddard solvent, Skellysolve ......What would dissolve in one might not dissolve in another. These solvents were mixtures of hydrocarbons (less expensive than pure hydrocarbons) which was dependant on both the crude oil and way the refinery was set up.

These differences in refinery products were also evident in gasoline. A car that runs well on gasoline from one refinery might not run so well on gasoline from another refinery. Texaco used this fact in their advertising. Their gas was uniform in each of the 48 states.

I've always thought that multidome general service tank cars were used for specialty loads like lube oils. After all, an 8000 gallon tank car holds 800 - 10 gallon fills, not very much for a dealer (consider their profit in the stream era).

I wonder if multidone weren't used to supply small dealers with less common petroleum products like distillate? Anyone seen an evidence (photos or car lists) that multidome tank cars were delivered to small dealers?

On the topic of petroleum products just about everywhere I've lived finished petroleum products have been and are delivered by water. Were tank cars ever loaded at waterside terminals?

Ed


Re: Mopac hoppers away from home

asychis@...
 

Thanks Mike,

Yes I have that Burlington Bulletin, and have practically worn it out.
There are a number of interesting MP hopper photos, and even USRA gons.

Jerry
**************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals.
(http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

np328
 

At the risk of giving Richard Hendrickson carpal tunnel from repeatedly jumping for the delete button, may I continue the coal
car discussion just a bit further.

First I think Armand make a great comment regarding regional differences. It fits for my neck of the woods, the upper Midwest, specifically the Mpls/St. Paul area. Gary Laakso commented that
there was a great amount of coal that came in through the Twin
Ports of Duluth and Superior. And this coal trade continued until most domestic use of coal for heating ended in the late fifties.
On the NP, between Twin Ports and Twin Cities tonnage ran, well
as a letter in NP File 10629 reads" The flow of traffic over this line is southbound and consists mainly of coal moving from the
Head of the Lakes to destinations in Minnesota, North and South Dakota, and Iowa." (Gary, I think that would apply to the GN also.)

Given all the grain that went in the reverse direction
(which is what I would have believed to be the predominant tonnage) that was quite a surprise when I first saw that. All the roads out
of the Twin Ports (NP, GN, MILW, C&NW, SOO and I would image DW&P
to smaller extent) competed for this coal traffic. In the Twin Cities, some of this traffic was interchanged with lines like the M&STL ending up on the "Landmesser List". (Thanks for taking the
time to transcribe and post that info at the M&StL Site.)

Given that the NP could mine the Colstrip lignite for about $1.50 and haul it on line one would expect no use of "Lake Coal"
at for locomotives on the NP (and much, much later this was true.) However for quite a while the dividing line was Mandan, ND, the middle of North Dakota, 375 miles from Coalstrip. Lignite, I will admit has less BTU value than anthracite much less. The NP figured that one ton of anthracite had a value of 148 units of heat vs a
ton of lignite at 100. Taking all of this into account, that meant
by the time transportation costs were added to the cost of $1.50
per ton lignite, BTU's were valued in, it equaled a $6.10 price,
833 miles later in Duluth/Superior. They could purchase the lake
coal for $3.70-3.90, explaining why the NP used lake coal on the
east end of the NP.

Of all that has been talked about so far, transportation
costs have not been mentioned once. The NP found that on the
basis of BTU's rendered, (this is really what the end user is
paying for - isn't it?) the transportation costs overtook the
cheaper costs of the lignite after about 400 miles.
What I am driving at here is those hoppers crossing Sherman
Hill or cooling their wheels in LA must have had a very good
reason to be there. The shipping costs had to be quite appreciable; all of which supports Armand's "regional" comment.

And regarding Richard's comment about Gons, drop bottom gons
and so on; The traffic and mechanical departments of the NP
regarded all these cars as "open top cars" and perfectly interchangeable. I suspect other western roads may have felt
this way also. However, it is the consignee who has a say in
how they wish it delivered, be it hopper, drop gon, or boxcar.

PS - Burlington Bulletin #35, which was mentioned, explains
why there were so many Q gons, the mines were set up to handle
gons, but not always hoppers, if I recall correctly.

To sum up, I think there is a good argument for the coal cars to roam, but not too far as there seem to be natural barriers. The Great Lakes are one barrier. Richard's point about the oil and gas fields of the southwest are another. The Illinois coal fields would seem to be a barrier to the eastern coal based on shipping costs. Coal from Illinois was price competetive with lake coal in the Twin Cities. Utah coal and Montana coal out of Red Lodge competed against one another based on the transportation costs.
All of these would serve to keep cars near home rails. And photos tell much, but not why some of these cars went as far from home as they did. Jim Dick - Roseville, MN


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on coal car models?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 7, 2009, at 5:10 AM, asychis@... wrote:

Richard writes:

"The Q was a "western" railroad only from the perspective of
easterners who
think
the west starts at the Mississippi River. However, for all of us
true westerners, the west begins at the Front Range. Period. Denver
and Cheyenne are west, but only barely. I mean to take nothing away
from the Burlington, which was in many ways an admirable railroad
(though, it must be said, with some of the ugliest steam locomotives
ever conceived). But a western railroad? Emphatically not.

So the Q's slogan Everywhere West was just a PR department ploy? :^)













In a word, yes. Also, I believe, a response to the UP's "Serves All
the West," which was a bit of an exaggeraion but not much - certainly
by comparison. Both slogans began to appear on box and auto cars at
about the same time ca. 1936-'37. In January, 1940, all such claims
were trumped by the Santa Fe's system map, showing a main line that
ran from Chicago to San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco with
diverging lines to almost everywhere in between from Denver to
Galveston. The SP/T&NO could have mounted a similar promotional
campaign on its freight cars but didn't, though it certainly
emphasized the vast and diverse area it served - from Portland to New
Orleans - in its print advertising.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

Dave Nelson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I thought that according to New Yorker magazine, "the West" bagan at
the Hudson :-)

Dennis
What else would one expect from New Yorkers?

FWIW, there really isn't a simple answer to EXACTLY where the west begins
but in general terms I think the best answer is somewhere whithin the
diagonal region along the front range, most of which was once populated by
Bison, and east of where the mountains begin: too dry for farming, too flat
to call the Rockies. Works from west Texas on the Rio Grande to west of
Edmonton. From the West (and north of the Red River) to the Missisippi are
the Great Plains. The Ozarks get in the way for a straight line boundary so
I personally have no issue with describing them as southern... as well as
anything south of the Ohio / Potomac.

Dave Nelson


Geographic Proof and a return to frt cars please

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Now, before we terminate this very enlightening thread...who started all this anyhow?...I will now present indisputable proof that I...as usual...am correct [ wonder what I said ]. Referring to non other than Jeff Aley's [ had to get Jeff on board ] favorite Rock Island...and if you can't trust your favorite RR who can you trust?...on pg 912/913 of the Official Guide, March 1952..."Rock Island Lines Serve 14 WESTERN States"

Count them: New Mexico, Texas, Col, Kansas, Oklahoma...etc., etc.

Of course, there IS the Frisco...the St. Louis San Francisco Railway Co...which does not go further west than Floydada Texas so just how much one can trust a RR remains to be seen.

And now...donning my Head Judge robes...tattered as they might be......now that we've solved the geographic argument...again...time to mercifully return to frt cars.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: Why so MUCH discussion on geography?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Andy Carlson says:

I live in Southern California, just 80 miles up the coast from LA, and up the road from me (10-12 miles) you will find several species of conifers normally associated in Richard's favorite part of California (Northern). Big Cone Douglass Fir; Sugar Pine; Ponderosa and Jeffrey Pines; Incense Cedar; Limber Pine; and a Spruce or 2 I haven't identified yet. Search out the Modoc Plateau in Northern California and see xeric landscapes which make many areas of Southern California look lush by comparison. .
True enough. I noted several yrs ago that I could take a photo of a RR incuding the background scenery in FL, put it with ten others from states as far north as PA and you would not be able to pick out the FL one. Note: FL has more pine trees than palms. FL has more oak trees than palms. The point, however, is that if I wandered outside in West Palm I doubt that I would say, "I must be near Pittsburgh or if I wandered outside in Tacoma, or perhaps east [ not in the East ] about 20 miles I don't think I'd say, "I must be in southern Cal". Oregon and even Wash obviously have arid areas...been there...but not quite so arid as Death Valley. BTW, even Maine has a desert.

"Dig a hole down to sea level at Florida's highest point, and a trans-planted California Coastal Redwood would have a view of the state"
Yep, flat as a pancake...although we do have several peaks in the 300+ ft range. Highest is Britten Hill...345 ft.

Now, rather surprising, I have been told by an ex CSX loco engineer...and the guy is legit [ he presents at Prototype Rails ]...that the steepest grade between Tampa and some place in South Carolina is just east of Tampa...around 1%. There is a "ridge" that runs north/south down the peninsula just to the west of Orlando beginning somewhere around Ocala { I guess }. I'm guessing that the general elevation change is probably around 250 ft in about a mile.

Mike Brock


no prototype hopper

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Armand Premo

We can list the merits of all the hoppers available. One of the best has no
prototype.

KL> Now which one is this?

Athearns ribbed hopper!


Mopac hoppers away from home

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jerry Michels writes...I'm stunned...something about frt cars:

Mike do you have any additional information on MP hoppers in "captive"
service? I model the MP in the Southern Illinois coal fields and am always
looking for information on MP coal traffic in the 1950s.
First, if you don't have Burlington Bulletin #35 you need to get it because it includes quite a bit of info on the other RRs serving the southern Illinois coal fields. Mind you, this is a 254 pg book...not your common small sized bulletin.

I have noticed quite a few photos of Mopac hoppers on UP tracks including in Laramie. There's the unexpected shot of a whole string of 3 bays on the Santa Fe in Cal. But, since you are modeling Southern Illinois, you should know that coal carrying cars of all the RR's there were mixed together to some degree. That's not to say you wouldn't see solid trains of Q cars in a Q train but others would be mixed in. Photos confirm this. As I noted before, the mines there were not RR owned [ although Q owned one ] and mine owners shipped where they shipped. That necessarily put Q cars on B&O, C&EI, NYC, and Mopac tracks and vice versa.

There's a shot you might find useful in the Bulletin showing Q engine 4999 north of Centralia with a string of MTs heading south [ not TO the South...just south...whew ] to the mines around Herrin Junction. 4 of the first 5 cars are Mopac 3 bays.There's also a shot of Q engine 6101 heading north with 85 loads of coal at Litchfield. First car is a Mopac 2 bay.

Mike Brock


Coal Car Models and Operations

NicholasF
 

It seems that the operational aspects of coal traffic and the models for all railroads have generated a great deal of interest on this list. It might be worth taking this accumulated knowledge and dispersing it via the railroad historical societies' modeling publications (a la Bill Welch's excellent FGE supplement that was featured as part of the PRRTHS, ACL/SAL and BORRRHS Modeler Mags.)

If anyone is interested in coming down to go through the 42 filing cabinets of the B&ORRHS Archives for research on something like this, please let me know off list and we can arrange some times to open the building.

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society
http://www.borhs.org


Re: Watertown MN 1954 Waybills

Thomas Baker
 

Yes, the gons. Wouldn't it have been very difficu;t tp shovel coal from a hopper into one of the typical Midwestern coal sheds?

Tom



Mike, many of the midwest coal roads, such as the CB&Q used gons for coal traffic. Labor was cheap to shovel out the cars, and the
cars could be used for other things besides coal, sand or gravel.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Alternate Standard Hopper Cars...or "Don't Cry For Me, Western Modelers"

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

A.T.;

You "O" guys get all the breaks! I am not kidding. You guys have some super
models to work with.

Thanks for all that info.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
proto48er
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 5:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Alternate Standard Hopper Cars...or "Don't Cry For Me,
Western Modelers"



Elden -

You need to specify a scale when you talk about AAR Alternate Standard offset
side double hoppers! We are swimming in them in "O" scale!

PSC has imported several brass models of these AAR Alternate Standard double
hoppers, including PSC #16061 with flat ends, PSC #16057 with oval notched
ends, PSC #16055 with oval Drednaught ends, PSC # ? with peaked ends, and PSC
# ? with plain oval ends. Rich Yoder has also imported each of these cars
again in brass, as well as a great WLE/ATSF 60-ton AAR Alternate Standard
offset side hopper that is a couple of inches taller than the C&O cars -
looks great next to them!

Only Precision Manufacturing Co. of San Antonio (no relation to PSC) made a
brass kit in 1973 for an AAR Alternate Standard triple offset side hopper car
- apparently a CN or CP prototype.

What we have TOO FEW of is the AAR Standard car! Only PSC imported a short
run of AAR Standard double offset side hopper cars a few years ago. PSC
#17213 was the flat end car, and PSC #17215 was the round end car. They also
imported PSC # 17217, a triple offset side car at the same time.

Rich Yoder has also imported an excellent series of AC&F Type 7 6,000 gallon
tank cars with single and double domes.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Gatwood,
Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Mike;

The fact is, unassailable IMO, the car with the greatest number of
prototypes NEVER made in model form that I'm aware of is the C&O 50
ton, offset side 2 bay hopper car...the AAR Alternate Standard design.
C&O had about 29,000. Yes, they had more of those cars than UP had of
all their box cars. Add to that, about 2000 Erie, about 750 NKP, and
700 NP cars of the same AAR Alt Standard of the same cu ft plus some
lessor RRs and other similar designs of different cu ft including,
OHMYGOSH, 200 Santa Fe's. The number of models produced? Some might argue
that there were different forms.
True, the end plate for the C&O hoppers included about 4 different forms.
There is nothing complicated about these end plates....
Elden Gatwood


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:


[ I observe here that contrary to Dr Hendrickson's belief, the West appears to begin at the
Mississippi River.]
I thought that according to New Yorker magazine, "the West" bagan at the Hudson :-)

Dennis


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

roblmclear <rob.mclear2@...>
 

All

This is great stuff I join the group to learn about freight cars and for extra's I get a geography lesson on the U.S. Now if you really want to know where the West is, go to L.A. or S.F. and go about 4000 miles in a boat or a plane and you will find the real west.

Rob Mclear
Brisbane Australia.

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., John Stokes <ggstokes@> wrote:


<snip>
The question is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include
the CB&Q as a Western railroad.
<snip, snap, snup>

What was that slogan on Burlington boxcars? "Everywhere East"? :-)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

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