Date   

Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
 

Railroads have very clear definitions of Western, Eastern, Southern territories in their freight tariffs. Ross McLeod Calgary 


__________________________________________________________________
Get the name you've always wanted @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/


Re: no prototype hopper

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

You are allowed - in fact encouraged - to do so on this list.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Armand Premo

I was trying to be careful not to identify the_ hopper.


Re: distillate

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Yes - the list of Watertown MN waybills showed just that - which is why I asked the question.

I have seen these old "distillate" engines and the manual for my Dad's Farmall mentioned a distillate fuel option. I just wondered if it had been unified and standardized into something else in the last 50 years.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: ed_mines

I wonder if multidone weren't used to supply small dealers with less common petroleum products like distillate? Anyone seen an evidence (photos or car lists) that multidome tank cars were delivered to small dealers?


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

That would be the "100th Meridian", supposedly the dividing point between where farming was possible without irrigation and where it wasn't.

. . . At least that's what it said on a sign at a rest stop on I-80 in 1983.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Nelson

FWIW, there really isn't a simple answer to EXACTLY where the west begins
but in general terms I think the best answer is somewhere whithin the
diagonal region along the front range, most of which was once populated by
Bison, and east of where the mountains begin: too dry for farming, too flat
to call the Rockies.


Re: Coal car loading on "home"roads...A. Thompson's answer.

mforsyth127
 

Anthony Thompson wrote:
Matt,
Since coal mine photos on most roads show the cars being loaded as >extremely heavily home-road cars, does this mean that the loaded cars >which traveled off-line were then returned empty to their owners?
Tony,

The answer(s)are yes and no. There are a lot of variables here. I don't know what photos of coal loading you are referring to, but in Northeastern PA, that does not seem to be "typical".

It depends on what made the most business sense to a particular railroad at that point in time. There are several mentions in T.T. Taber's and T.T. Taber III's series, "The Delaware Lackawanna and Western Railroad in the Twentieth Century, Vols. I & II, about coal loading in the Scranton, PA area in the 30's and 40's. On average, the DL&W shipped over 1000 loads of anthracite per day out of Scranton. Their own hoppers numbered about 9100 by 1949. That may seem like a lot, but trying to keep 1000 empty hoppers available for daily coal loading 6 days a week, even with 9100 on the roster was a logistical nightmare!(which the Taber book so states)

Given that, if they needed 100 or 200 extra hoppers, and there were empty Reading, B&O, D&H, PRR, CNJ, etc. cars in the area, you can bet they got pressed into service. Yes, they were paying per diem on that car, but why not off-set that expense by loading the car and putting it into service? If there were enough "home road" cars on hand, then send the foreign road cars home and get them off the system to minimize the per diem. The optimum condition (financially)would be to ONLY load home road cars, but that rarely happened.

And as far as coal loaded, being heavy in home road hoppers, there are examples of times that was true, and other times that is was not. I model with an fellow that's nearly 80, and he was on-site to witness much of the regional PA coal loading operations.

One example would be loading cars on the DL&W or the D&H. Again, because so many cars were shipped daily, and the need for empty open car was great, WHATEVER was kicking around was pressed into service. You said "heavily" home road, but what does heavily represent, 90%, 80%?

In the case of the DL&W, requiring 1000 cars a day, at 80%, that still means that the Lackawanna was shipping an average of 200 loaded foreign road cars a day out of Scranton...that's 4800 cars a month (during peak season). Some folks may not realize that coal shipments happened year round, but during the off-peak summer season, the number of shipments were much less. That's just the DL&W generating approx. 4200 foreign hopper loads a month. Now, factor in all the other regional coal haulers (PRR, D&H, CNJ, B&O, C&O, WM, LV, NYC, P&LE, RDG, etc., etc., and that's a pile of loaded foreign road cars.

An example of almost 100% home road car loading would be the coal facilities at Northumberland, PA. That was a PRR facility, and as such, the cars were almost 100% PRR. Why, because the bulk of the loads that came from that facility were shipped regionally, for power plant and manufacturing use in the Sunbury, Shamokin Damn, PA, etc. areas, and in that case, those cars really were in "captive service", never traveling more than 15 or 20 miles from their point of loading.

Something else to think about is the need for smaller twin hoppers. The PRR had a zillion hoppers, but the vast majority of them were 4 bay, and as the years wore on, they divested themselves of many of the smaller two bay hoppers they did have. By the early 50's the GLa and GLc types are becoming quite rare. Often times, a customer or a local coal dealer had limited space in their siding, and was not able to accept a hopper that large. When that happened, the PRR would press a Reading or B&O twin into service, to satisfy a customer's requirements.

In the very early 1950's the Lackawanna bought a series of off-set 4 bay cars from the B&M. They did not prove successful, because as was mentioned earlier, they were too large for many of their customer's sidings. Those hoppers were eventually cut up and rebuilt by the DL&W's Keyser Valley Shops as piggy back flats, in the mid '50's.

Something else to think about...prior to WWI, the DL&W owned locomotives that burned anthracite in wide "Wooten" styled fireboxes. After the War, they moved to buring bituminous, as they acquired more modern steam power in the 1920's and 30's. Since the DL&W did not have an online source for bituminous, they were forced to purchase it from the PRR; that coal being mined in central and western PA.

Lackawanna's locomotive coal was hauled by the PRR from the PA soft coal fields to Williamsport, PA, and up the PRR's Elmira Branch to Southport, NY. There, they would hand over an entire train to the Lackawanna at their division point yards in Elmira, NY. From there, the DL&W would ferry that coal all over their system, replenishing their supplies at locomotive servicing facilities. Now that those hoppers were scattered from Buffalo, NY, to Hoboken, NJ, some on the west end of the system would be returned, but you can bet that those that had to pass through the Scranton area were snagged up for daily anthracite loading (if needed).

Another point...because the daily need for cars was so great, the Lackawanna was not at all opposed to shipping coal in gons and box cars. They would place a damn of boards a few feet high across the door opening and fill the car with coal.

Lastly...NOT ALL COAL IS CREATED EQUAL. As wild as it may sound, coal, even of the same type and mined in the same general region exhibited different burning and heating qualities, and as such, was often selected by the end-user just for those qualities.

The PRR had a huge yard and coal dock at Sodus, NY on Lake Ontario. Almost all the coal that moved up the Elmira branch wound up at Sodus, for loading on Great Lakes ships, bound for various point. When the coal was brought to the holding yard at Sodus, if was classified by type (I'm not talking about anthracite or bituminous, as it was almost totally bituminous), quality, mining region, and other characteristics. When a ship pulled up to be loaded, the fellow in charge would actually call out the various coal types to be loaded, and the coal was then "blended" as it was dumped into the ship, i.e. four 50 ton hoppers of this type, and then eight 70 ton hoppers of this type, etc. in order to acheive the custom mix that the customer required.

Matt Forsyth

Modeling the DL&W, Erie, PRR,
NYC, and LV in "O" Scale
Elmira, NY 1951


Re: Prototype for new resin kits

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Brian Chapman wrote:

I'd like to create a diorama of IOWA and such rail service, if it existed.
A friend at work is building one of those in 1/8" scale. It's 9' long, and very impressive.

Tom Madden


Hoppers on the Rutland

Armand Premo
 

During the month of December 1950 249 hoppers were on Train#9.They were as follows:B&O 76,PRR 57, NYC 39 ,RDG 12,BWC 10 ,DL&W 9 ,D&H 8, WM 6 ,PL&E and LV 4 ,MRR, ERIE and N&W 3 ,CRP and PWV 2,1 ea for the following:CB&Q,L&N.NC&StL,NKP, CNW ,SOU ,NH ,PKY ,INT ,C&I ,CCO ,PS.I didn't check the total,but suspect that it is reasonably accurate.Can ,or should one draw any conclusions from the above? Your call.Armand Premo


Re: Modelers research library

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ray Stilwell wrote:
I think a better alternative would be to scan the books into PDF files which could be loaned without the burden and danger of shipping the actual books.
If each owner scanned their book and added the PDF to the library, it would be a valuable resource for all members of the group.
Are you aware that there can be a copyright issue in the process you describe?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: STMFC-era ship

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Brian Ehni wrote:
IIRC, it has since been dismantled after the deactivation of the Navy Yard; perhaps Tony can elucidate?
What they did soon after deactivation of the yard was remove the crane bridge. What's been there since is just the framework. Last time I flew over there, it was still standing.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Ferroalloys and the RRs [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gatwood, Elden wrote:
What I do not know was whether or not ferro-manganese (or even powdered manganese itself?) might have also been introduced, in powdered (or less than large chunk) form, into the steel-making charge (which was iron plus scrap plus various additives based on the steel desired).
Powder is bad news in charging--there is considerable air velocity and/or fume velocity which could really move powder anywhere. You want to charge things that will at least stay put on the surface before dissolving, better still inject into the bath. That's one reason for ferroalloys--they dissolve readily. Charging elemental anything raises issues about how well it dissolves, if it floats or sinks, if it oxidizes before dissolving, etc.
Thank you, Elden for the interesting summary on USS ferromanganese production. So much of it is used in plain carbon steels that I'm not surprised they produced it in-plant, but the same would probably not be true of smaller mills or foundries.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: no prototype hopper--or "making a silk purse out of a sow's ear"...

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

If you followed Todd Sullivan's article in RMC back in the early '80's, you could carve most of the ribs off the sides and make new side panels using .010" styrene to model a "fishbelly" hopper used by RDG, LV, D&H, CNJ, etc. Add new grab irons and you wound up with a nice model way before Stewart offered it.

I gained a CNJ hopper this way!

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Armand Premo

We can list the merits of all the hoppers available. One of the best has no
prototype.

KL> Now which one is this?

Athearns ribbed hopper!


Re: Ferroalloys and the RRs [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

Mark
 

Those B&O hoppers use to pass our house heading westbound(north). I still believe they stopped at the mill. We used ferro-manganese in a few grades and it was dumped in the ladles. It was heavy and dusty, no larger than 2" pieces.
Now the AOD or LMF handles most of the additives.

Had the opportunity to visit a Blast Furnace shop in Lorain Ohio a few years back and visited the valley in Cleveland. Those shops made ours look small.

Sincerely, Mark Morgan

--- On Tue, 7/7/09, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Ferroalloys and the RRs [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 4:51 PM

















Tony and Mark (and any interested);



Thanks for that additional info, and I guess I did not ask my questions with

enough background to what I know and what I do not. Maybe other folks will

be interested in the following:



Several of the integrated facilities I grew up near and asked questions of

all my friends' fathers about were USSteel's Homestead, Duquesne and Clairton

works, and Jones & Laughlin's Pgh Works. I have since done a lot of

interviews and data gathering on how things were done, and even got into the

mills on occasion to see what they did, but as you know, some operations

there just don't seem to have folks still around that know a lot about (or

remember).



What I do know about ferro-manganese use at USS was that they dedicated

certain furnaces with old refractory, to "ferro" production. The iron from

them was required for use in certain steel production, but you knew that.

They did get ferro-manganese in large chunks, for use direct into the charge

at the blast furnace, which then produced "ferro" iron for later introduction

into the open hearths, electric furnaces, or BOP/BOF. So, that

ferro-manganese did come from a USS-operated facility (which I have not yet

definitively determined) that converted the raw ore to ferro-manganese, as

Tony stated, for better intro to the charge producing iron. The loads came

in primarily in twin hoppers. Because "ferro" was so heavy, some came in

with the hopper doors held shut with a wooden framework. Apparently some had

their doors forced open, and the shipper did not want to take any chances,

but I also saw them with no extra measures like that. It would be a neat

feature to model! The B&O actually used ex-RDG twins in this service, with

the left wide panel painted orange with instructions on the panel in black.

Locally, they were know as "Orange Blossoms", for that orange panel. They

were dedicated to this service. I think RDG did the same. PRR also used

twins and saved their triples and quads for coal service since they had

greater capacity.



What I do not know was whether or not ferro-manganese (or even powdered

manganese itself?) might have also been introduced, in powdered (or less than

large chunk) form, into the steel-making charge (which was iron plus scrap

plus various additives based on the steel desired). It is not as dumb a

question as one could think, since additives like calcium carbide were used

as a de-sulphurization agent in iron, as a "fuel" in steel-making to extend

the scrap ratio, but added to the liquid metal (iron) before introduction

into the open hearth, and also as a de-oxidizer at the ladle in the treatment

facility; so would have been seen conceivably at 3 different locations. Yes,

I do know they threw weighed bags direct into the open hearth, but I have

been unable to find exactly which were bagged (and presumably arrived in box

cars), versus those like soda ash that definitely arrived in covered hoppers

(DT&I PS-2 triples, for one, I remember), versus some additives that arrived

in open hoppers. There were also those, like powdered dolomite, that arrived

in gons in containers. All I have been told by folks in the industry, when I

asked specific questions, was usually, "we got open hoppers, covered hoppers,

box cars, and gons". Yes, they did store some of it in bins right next to

the furnace, but some of it was kept elsewhere and only introduced to certain

mixes.



I have figured out how many hoppers of a given capacity they received loaded

with coal, iron ore, limestone (flux stone) and/or dolomite, at each facility

I model interchange with, but am still wrestling with the issues of how much

of these additives were received, and even more interesting, originating

where and shipped in whose cars? And, because many additives were only mined

overseas, they must've come in via ports (unless Mexico or Canada), and the

cars might have reflected the RR at the port-of-entry.



I also remember we had part of this dialog before, but the list of additives

continues to grow! It is also more than an obscure line of dialog, as this

end of the business meant many, many loads to the RR, in this case, mine!



Elden Gatwood



-----Original Message-----

From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Mark

Morgan

Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 6:10 PM

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]



Excellent remarks from Mr. Gatwood and Mr. Thompson.



I have seen ferromoly in small barrels@ 100# and in bulk sacks on pallets.

Ferro manganese is usually hauled by truck or rail. I have seen twin offset

hoppers with this load. We use these in grades at AK Steel/Mansfield Works.

Back a few years ago a test was sent to the lab and additions were made at

tap.

That would be our era.



Sincerely, Mark Morgan



Layed off Steelworker/ EAF operator



--- On Mon, 7/6/09, Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturep ress.com

<mailto:thompson% 40signaturepress .com> > wrote:



From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturep ress.com

<mailto:thompson% 40signaturepress .com> >

Subject: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com <mailto:STMFC% 40yahoogroups. com>

Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:10 PM



Gatwood, Elden wrote:



The U.S. imported 3.5mt of manganese in 1955, produced 162,000 mt


domestically, and used 2.25 mt in the steel industry. Do you think


the latter is processed ferro-manganese? . . . Do you also think the


15,500 tons were


ferro-molybdenum?


Elden, the reason for ferroalloys is to make alloy additions to



the molten steel easy. Varying melting points, densities, and other



issues mean that you don't want to add pure elements directly; and in



any case, purity is not generally the issue anyway. The ferroalloy



maker handles all those melting point, etc. problems and delivers a



blend you can dump straight into a ladle or furnace and be sure it



will dissolve correctly.



Lastly, would either or both be in powdered form, and therefore


require covered shipment like Al asked, either box cars in bags


(which I really doubt for ferro-manganese, due to the volume being


used) or in covered hoppers?


In the 1950s covered hoppers were not used much for this kind



of cargo. I disagree with you about the use of bags. I've watched



entire pallets of bagged ferroalloy additions dumped straight into the



furnace. Yep, pallet, strapping, paper bags and all. In a 200-ton



heat, those "extra" things really don't count (!), and when you think



about what even one-tenth of a percent amounts to in 200 tons, you



ain't adding single bags.



The ferroalloys I've seen close up are pretty chunky pieces,



far from powder--my recollection is fist-size chunks, and that could



also be handled at the furnace mouth with a front-end loader or



equivalent. The convenience of bags is that you have 100-lb. (or



whatever) units so you know how much to add to bring a heat up to



whatever composition it's supposed to have. Usually the heat has been



sampled, the sample checked by the lab, and the word sent back as to



how close the heat is to the target composition; you then add the



required amounts.



Anthony Thompson



Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering



University of California, Berkeley



thompsonmarytony@ sbcglobal. net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Northern Pacific Paint Codes Needed

railsnw1 <railsnw@...>
 

OK, I'm trying to put together a listing of the various paint codes used by the NP. These were generally a 1" stencil on the side of the car at the left end at the bottom with something like "DL. DU. 7-53". The DL in this case is thought to be Dupont, the DU is Duluth, and the 7-53 is painted July 1953. Northern Pacific historian Rick Leach has told me he has or had seen a list of the various paint manufacturers approved by the NP. I'm trying to see if a specific paint was used by certain shops and when it was used.

If anyone has clear photos showing this info I'd like the car number, paint code, shop, and date.

Thanks,

Richard Wilkens


Re: STMFC-era ship

brianehni <behni@...>
 

This appears to be a WW2 image of the crane, before the very tall portion was erected:
http://johneaves.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/06_ship_4_aircraft_carriers_at_hunters_point_for_web.jpg

Brian Ehni

--- In STMFC@..., "Mark Pierce" <marcoperforar@...> wrote:

Cranes are included in the wikipedia photo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_(BB-61)
and there is some track and, on the center-left (double-click and enlarge the photo) are two railroad gondolas.

The Iowa was there to repair typhoon damage.

Mark Pierce

--- In STMFC@..., "Brian Chapman" <cornbeltroute@> wrote:

Yes, the cruisers and battleships were often at Hunters Point, where a large enough crane was available to lift an entire turret from the ship for repair work. <
That must have been one big crane (is it still there?) IIRC, an Iowa Class main turret weighed in at 2700 tons, the equivalent of a WWII destroyer. Each of the four Iowa Class sisters had three of 'em.

Brian


Re: Geographic Proof and a return to frt cars please

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Guyz,

        The geography lesson is illuninating. For the PRR fans, the west
begins westward out of Richmond, IN. The trees get smaller, the
grass turns to sand, and everything is flat until you get to the west end
of South Dakota. Now back to regular railroad topics.............

Fred Freitas




________________________________
From: Frank Greene <frgreene290@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 12:57:31 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Geographic Proof and a return to frt cars please





Mike Brock wrote:
Now, before we terminate this very enlightening thread...who started all
this anyhow?...I will now present indisputable proof that I...as usual...am
correct [ wonder what I said ]. Referring to non other than Jeff Aley's [
had to get Jeff on board ] favorite Rock Island...and if you can't trust
your favorite RR who can you trust?...on pg 912/913 of the Official Guide,
March 1952..."Rock Island Lines Serve 14 WESTERN States"

Count them: New Mexico, Texas, Col, Kansas, Oklahoma...etc. , etc.
Did they include Tennessee? They did come to Memphis and I always think
of Tennessee when someone starts a silly argument about where the west
starts. Kinda' discredits "indisputable proof," doesn't it?

Risk taker... one who pokes at both the holder of the keys to moderate
jail AND his deputy (also see "fool").

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Ferroalloys and the RRs [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tony and Mark (and any interested);

Thanks for that additional info, and I guess I did not ask my questions with
enough background to what I know and what I do not. Maybe other folks will
be interested in the following:

Several of the integrated facilities I grew up near and asked questions of
all my friends' fathers about were USSteel's Homestead, Duquesne and Clairton
works, and Jones & Laughlin's Pgh Works. I have since done a lot of
interviews and data gathering on how things were done, and even got into the
mills on occasion to see what they did, but as you know, some operations
there just don't seem to have folks still around that know a lot about (or
remember).

What I do know about ferro-manganese use at USS was that they dedicated
certain furnaces with old refractory, to "ferro" production. The iron from
them was required for use in certain steel production, but you knew that.
They did get ferro-manganese in large chunks, for use direct into the charge
at the blast furnace, which then produced "ferro" iron for later introduction
into the open hearths, electric furnaces, or BOP/BOF. So, that
ferro-manganese did come from a USS-operated facility (which I have not yet
definitively determined) that converted the raw ore to ferro-manganese, as
Tony stated, for better intro to the charge producing iron. The loads came
in primarily in twin hoppers. Because "ferro" was so heavy, some came in
with the hopper doors held shut with a wooden framework. Apparently some had
their doors forced open, and the shipper did not want to take any chances,
but I also saw them with no extra measures like that. It would be a neat
feature to model! The B&O actually used ex-RDG twins in this service, with
the left wide panel painted orange with instructions on the panel in black.
Locally, they were know as "Orange Blossoms", for that orange panel. They
were dedicated to this service. I think RDG did the same. PRR also used
twins and saved their triples and quads for coal service since they had
greater capacity.

What I do not know was whether or not ferro-manganese (or even powdered
manganese itself?) might have also been introduced, in powdered (or less than
large chunk) form, into the steel-making charge (which was iron plus scrap
plus various additives based on the steel desired). It is not as dumb a
question as one could think, since additives like calcium carbide were used
as a de-sulphurization agent in iron, as a "fuel" in steel-making to extend
the scrap ratio, but added to the liquid metal (iron) before introduction
into the open hearth, and also as a de-oxidizer at the ladle in the treatment
facility; so would have been seen conceivably at 3 different locations. Yes,
I do know they threw weighed bags direct into the open hearth, but I have
been unable to find exactly which were bagged (and presumably arrived in box
cars), versus those like soda ash that definitely arrived in covered hoppers
(DT&I PS-2 triples, for one, I remember), versus some additives that arrived
in open hoppers. There were also those, like powdered dolomite, that arrived
in gons in containers. All I have been told by folks in the industry, when I
asked specific questions, was usually, "we got open hoppers, covered hoppers,
box cars, and gons". Yes, they did store some of it in bins right next to
the furnace, but some of it was kept elsewhere and only introduced to certain
mixes.

I have figured out how many hoppers of a given capacity they received loaded
with coal, iron ore, limestone (flux stone) and/or dolomite, at each facility
I model interchange with, but am still wrestling with the issues of how much
of these additives were received, and even more interesting, originating
where and shipped in whose cars? And, because many additives were only mined
overseas, they must've come in via ports (unless Mexico or Canada), and the
cars might have reflected the RR at the port-of-entry.

I also remember we had part of this dialog before, but the list of additives
continues to grow! It is also more than an obscure line of dialog, as this
end of the business meant many, many loads to the RR, in this case, mine!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Mark
Morgan
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 6:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]



Excellent remarks from Mr. Gatwood and Mr. Thompson.

I have seen ferromoly in small barrels@ 100# and in bulk sacks on pallets.
Ferro manganese is usually hauled by truck or rail. I have seen twin offset
hoppers with this load. We use these in grades at AK Steel/Mansfield Works.
Back a few years ago a test was sent to the lab and additions were made at
tap.
That would be our era.

Sincerely, Mark Morgan

Layed off Steelworker/ EAF operator

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> > wrote:

From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> >
Subject: [STMFC] Ferroalloys [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:10 PM

Gatwood, Elden wrote:

The U.S. imported 3.5mt of manganese in 1955, produced 162,000 mt
domestically, and used 2.25 mt in the steel industry. Do you think
the latter is processed ferro-manganese? . . . Do you also think the
15,500 tons were
ferro-molybdenum?
Elden, the reason for ferroalloys is to make alloy additions to

the molten steel easy. Varying melting points, densities, and other

issues mean that you don't want to add pure elements directly; and in

any case, purity is not generally the issue anyway. The ferroalloy

maker handles all those melting point, etc. problems and delivers a

blend you can dump straight into a ladle or furnace and be sure it

will dissolve correctly.

Lastly, would either or both be in powdered form, and therefore
require covered shipment like Al asked, either box cars in bags
(which I really doubt for ferro-manganese, due to the volume being
used) or in covered hoppers?
In the 1950s covered hoppers were not used much for this kind

of cargo. I disagree with you about the use of bags. I've watched

entire pallets of bagged ferroalloy additions dumped straight into the

furnace. Yep, pallet, strapping, paper bags and all. In a 200-ton

heat, those "extra" things really don't count (!), and when you think

about what even one-tenth of a percent amounts to in 200 tons, you

ain't adding single bags.

The ferroalloys I've seen close up are pretty chunky pieces,

far from powder--my recollection is fist-size chunks, and that could

also be handled at the furnace mouth with a front-end loader or

equivalent. The convenience of bags is that you have 100-lb. (or

whatever) units so you know how much to add to bring a heat up to

whatever composition it's supposed to have. Usually the heat has been

sampled, the sample checked by the lab, and the word sent back as to

how close the heat is to the target composition; you then add the

required amounts.

Anthony Thompson

Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering

University of California, Berkeley

thompsonmarytony@ sbcglobal. net











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: STMFC-era ship

brianehni <behni@...>
 

The 1947-built, 630 ton crane, is shown in this photo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/telstar/2266107/

IIRC, it has since been dismantled after the deactivation of the Navy Yard; perhaps Tony can elucidate?

Brian Ehni

--- In STMFC@..., "Mark Pierce" <marcoperforar@...> wrote:

Cranes are included in the wikipedia photo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_(BB-61)
and there is some track and, on the center-left (double-click and enlarge the photo) are two railroad gondolas.

The Iowa was there to repair typhoon damage.

Mark Pierce

--- In STMFC@..., "Brian Chapman" <cornbeltroute@> wrote:

Yes, the cruisers and battleships were often at Hunters Point, where a large enough crane was available to lift an entire turret from the ship for repair work. <
That must have been one big crane (is it still there?) IIRC, an Iowa Class main turret weighed in at 2700 tons, the equivalent of a WWII destroyer. Each of the four Iowa Class sisters had three of 'em.

Brian


Re: Modelers research library

George R. Stilwell, Jr. <GRSJr@...>
 

I think a better alternative would be to scan the books into PDF files which could be loaned without the burden and danger of shipping the actual books.

If each owner scanned their book and added the PDF to the library, it would be a valuable resource for all members of the group.

Ray


Re: STMFC-era ship

Mark Pierce <marcoperforar@...>
 

Cranes are included in the wikipedia photo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_(BB-61)
and there is some track and, on the center-left (double-click and enlarge the photo) are two railroad gondolas.

The Iowa was there to repair typhoon damage.

Mark Pierce

--- In STMFC@..., "Brian Chapman" <cornbeltroute@...> wrote:

Yes, the cruisers and battleships were often at Hunters Point, where a large enough crane was available to lift an entire turret from the ship for repair work. <
That must have been one big crane (is it still there?) IIRC, an Iowa Class main turret weighed in at 2700 tons, the equivalent of a WWII destroyer. Each of the four Iowa Class sisters had three of 'em.

Brian


STMFC-era ship

Brian Chapman <cornbeltroute@...>
 

Yes, the cruisers and battleships were often at Hunters Point, where a large enough crane was available to lift an entire turret from the ship for repair work. <
That must have been one big crane (is it still there?) IIRC, an Iowa Class main turret weighed in at 2700 tons, the equivalent of a WWII destroyer. Each of the four Iowa Class sisters had three of 'em.

Brian

Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa

113781 - 113800 of 196818