Date   

Re: NYC Hoppers (was: Coal car loading on "home" roads)

anthony wagner
 

Don't forget NYC's offset 70 ton triples, and its USRA designed 70 tonners that were built only for NYC and C&O in the 1920s with a middle "clamshell" drop door, then rebuilt in the 1930s with a third sawtooth. Some of these were also rebuilt with Union Metal's side bulges between the side stakes. Tony Wagner

--- On Wed, 7/8/09, Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@yahoo.com>
Subject: [STMFC] NYC Hoppers (was: Coal car loading on "home" roads)
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2009, 9:31 AM




























On Tue, 7/7/09, Mike Brock wrote:
In Matt's case, he is...I think...referring to  coal
GENERATING RRs whereas I am referring to coal RECEIVING RRs
...NYC, NKP and Pennsy north of Columbus, other smaller lines
northwest of Cincinnati. This is, I think, a significant
difference when it comes to determining home cars on home rails.


Hi Mike,



Um...the NYC is a coal RECEIVING road? With 41,053 hoppper stencilled for the NYC and another 12,645 registered for other System lines in 1950? Maybe west of Ohio, but even in Indiana and Illinois the NYC and P&E had significant mines online (the largest drag line in the world in 1950 was on the P&E). We "flatlands" modelers need NYC hoppers in large numbers (L&N too, surprisingly) and they weren't all coming loaded from West Virginia.



Along those lines, how come we've got PRR and N&W hoppers coming out of our ears, but we can't get a decent NYC offset side twin hopper? The 1000 Athearn-types don't count here; I'm talking about the 13,000 plus offset hoppers that were shorter (less long) and taller than a standard AAR hopper. Frank Hodina showed me a kitbash that'll kind of work, but for those of us that need 20+ of the things, hacking away at Athearn bodies for months on end is less than fun. It sure would be nice to be able to be able to take 32% of the NYC's hopper fleet out of a box and run them on a layout...



Ray Breyer

































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Ulrich gondolas [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

Ian Cranstone
 

Hi Tony:

Deal -- I can offer a US address for shipping as follows:

Ian Cranstone
c/o Jeff Trew
Box 971
Ogdensburg, NY 13669

I am assuming that shipping will be above and beyond the $20.

Cheers,

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@nakina.net
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net

On 4-Jul-09, at 1:23 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:



And if you're looking for a good home for these cars, I'd be
interested.
I'd take $20 for the pair. If that's too high, say so.

Tony Thompson
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937;
e-mail: thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net

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Re: NYC freight cars (was: NYC Hoppers)

gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:

Along those lines, how come we've got PRR and N&W hoppers coming out of our ears, but we can't get a decent NYC offset side twin hopper?
Ray,
Whatever the reason, it probably also explains why there is no NYC USRA design steel boxcar in plastic. I am assuming the "Sun Models" NYC boxcar as alluded to in a past RMJ article is dead in the water.

Sorry for the temporary thread hijack. Back to hoppers.

Sincerely,
Bob Heninger
Iowa City, IA


NYC Hoppers (was: Coal car loading on "home" roads)

Ray Breyer
 

On Tue, 7/7/09, Mike Brock wrote:
In Matt's case, he is...I think...referring to  coal
GENERATING RRs whereas I am referring to coal RECEIVING RRs
...NYC, NKP and Pennsy north of Columbus, other smaller lines
northwest of Cincinnati. This is, I think, a significant
difference when it comes to determining home cars on home rails.

Hi Mike,

Um...the NYC is a coal RECEIVING road? With 41,053 hoppper stencilled for the NYC and another 12,645 registered for other System lines in 1950? Maybe west of Ohio, but even in Indiana and Illinois the NYC and P&E had significant mines online (the largest drag line in the world in 1950 was on the P&E). We "flatlands" modelers need NYC hoppers in large numbers (L&N too, surprisingly) and they weren't all coming loaded from West Virginia.


Along those lines, how come we've got PRR and N&W hoppers coming out of our ears, but we can't get a decent NYC offset side twin hopper? The 1000 Athearn-types don't count here; I'm talking about the 13,000 plus offset hoppers that were shorter (less long) and taller than a standard AAR hopper. Frank Hodina showed me a kitbash that'll kind of work, but for those of us that need 20+ of the things, hacking away at Athearn bodies for months on end is less than fun. It sure would be nice to be able to be able to take 32% of the NYC's hopper fleet out of a box and run them on a layout...

Ray Breyer


Re: Hoppers on the Rutland

Tim O'Connor
 

Armand

I look at it this way: about 10% of the cars are what I'd
call "oddballs" -- accidental tourists, as it were. That
seems about right to me, for coal hoppers, in the 1950's.
I don't count any of the likely anthracite cars (RDG/DL&W/
ERIE/LV/D&H) in that 10%, although they could easily have
gotten mixed into blocks of cars from the B&O/PRR/NYC. And
the P&LE cars could be mixed up with NYC cars.

Tim O'Connor

Tim,MRR is the Montour.Train # 9 is from Alburgh,Vt to the NYC interchange at Norwood,NY.Train # 9 for the most part was Train #19 from Rutland to Alburgh.Ben Hom did an analysis of company coal reports and this study would pretty much support your theory.and is essentially the same as the month of November.The surprises were the appearance of :Southern, L&N ,CB&Q,CCO ,NC&StL,PWV, INT , C&I ,CNW as well as PS.The Berwyn cars would come in on Train # 10 and would be interchanged with the CV at Alburgh.The BWC cars in Train # 9 were empties as were most of the hoppers in those trains.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Hoppers on the Rutland





Armand, I think one obvious conclusion is that bituminous
coal predominated on the Rutland. I wonder how much of the
coal was for the Rutland's own consumption? Also, the three
largest owners all reached into northern New York state, so
this reinforces the idea that nearby railroads should be
more heavily represented than railroads further away.

What is reporting mark PS? Pittsburgh & Shawmut? And MRR?

What was the route of #9?

Tim O'Connor

>During the month of December 1950 249 hoppers were on Train #9.
>They were as follows:
>
> B&O 76
> PRR 57
> NYC 39
> RDG 12
> BWC 10
> DL&W 9
> D&H 8
> WM 6
> P&LE 4
> LV 4
> MRR 3
> ERIE 3
> N&W 3
> CRP 2
> PWV 2
> CB&Q 1
> L&N 1
> NC&StL 1
> NKP 1
> CNW 1
> SOU 1
> NH 1
> PMcK&Y 1
> INT 1
> C&I 1
> CCO 1
> PS 1
>
>I didn't check the total, but suspect that it is reasonably
>accurate. Can or should one draw any conclusions from the
>above? Your call.Armand Premo


Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Tim O'Connor
 

Rob

Nope, not only for steel. Cement manufacturing also uses
a lot of coal -- for heat! And Fontana was not the only
steel plant in California.

At 7/8/2009 04:13 AM Wednesday, you wrote:
I might be wrong but weren't the hoppers on Cajon Pass limited to the coal traffic for Kaiser steel, as I understand this these were mostly by the Rio Grande. This is only from memory mind and I could be wrong, someone out there more knowledgable than me would know, Richard you out there!

Rob.


Re: Coal car loading on "home"roads...A. Thompson's answer.

Mark
 

Model Railroader or Railroad Model Craftsman had an article about that plant. Do not remember what year but believe about thirty years ago.

Mark Morgan

--- On Wed, 7/8/09, Derrick Brashear <shadow@penn.central.org> wrote:

From: Derrick Brashear <shadow@penn.central.org>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home"roads...A. Thompson's answer.
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2009, 7:53 AM

















On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Anthony

Thompson<thompson@signaturep ress.com> wrote:

I recall, from my days living in Pittsburgh, a very nice small
power plant across Panther Hollow from the Carnegie Mellon campus
(where I worked, and often observed switching at the plant). The cars
spotted there were invariably twins, 50- or 55-ton cars, though by
that time (1980s) these had become rare cars. Why? The trestle into
the plant could not handle heavier cars. The twins were often C&O, and
it was a B&O line--but by then it was really all Chessie anyway.
(Pardon me for alluding to things far in the future for this list. <g>)


That plant still exists; it received coal via the Allegheny Valley

(CSX lessee) until recently; A consent

decree with the county health department caused them to switch to natural gas.



In fact, they continued to have a set of older twin hoppers there

until the end, many in this case

ex-BN hoppers with WE reporting marks stencilled in. Now that it's not

done anymore, I can mention the

flying switch they did to push coal into the plant without getting

anyone in trouble, I bet.

http://picasaweb. google.com/ shadow/Bellefiel dBoilerPlantOakl and?feat= directlink



This would be barely a footnote worth mentioning for a steam era

freight car list, but I'm hoping, with your remembrance and

seeing (modern) pictures, that someone might also know of a steam era

picture of the plant, as I'd like to see what it was

being served with at the time.



Derrick





























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Coal car loading on "home"roads...A. Thompson's answer.

Derrick Brashear <shadow@...>
 

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Anthony
Thompson<thompson@signaturepress.com> wrote:

I recall, from my days living in Pittsburgh, a very nice small
power plant across Panther Hollow from the Carnegie Mellon campus
(where I worked, and often observed switching at the plant). The cars
spotted there were invariably twins, 50- or 55-ton cars, though by
that time (1980s) these had become rare cars. Why? The trestle into
the plant could not handle heavier cars. The twins were often C&O, and
it was a B&O line--but by then it was really all Chessie anyway.
(Pardon me for alluding to things far in the future for this list. <g>)
That plant still exists; it received coal via the Allegheny Valley
(CSX lessee) until recently; A consent
decree with the county health department caused them to switch to natural gas.

In fact, they continued to have a set of older twin hoppers there
until the end, many in this case
ex-BN hoppers with WE reporting marks stencilled in. Now that it's not
done anymore, I can mention the
flying switch they did to push coal into the plant without getting
anyone in trouble, I bet.
http://picasaweb.google.com/shadow/BellefieldBoilerPlantOakland?feat=directlink

This would be barely a footnote worth mentioning for a steam era
freight car list, but I'm hoping, with your remembrance and
seeing (modern) pictures, that someone might also know of a steam era
picture of the plant, as I'd like to see what it was
being served with at the time.

Derrick


Re: Hoppers on the Rutland

SUVCWORR@...
 

Armand,

We all know handwriting can be difficult to read at times and typos do occur.? Considering the location of the T and R keys on a typewriter, a typo is entirely possible if this is a typed list.? I was just pointing out that MRR is not a reporting mark for the Montour.

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Armand Premo <armprem2@surfglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 4:39 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers on the Rutland










Rich only reporting what was on the Wheel Report.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers on the Rutland








PS? is Pittsburgh & Shamut

Montour was M? then MTR not MRR

The only reference to MRR I have is Mid-Atlantic RR from 1988 - 1996 when it
was taken over? by the Carolina Southern RR.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: mforsyth127 <mforsyth127@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2009 7:26 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers on the Rutland

Tim O'Connor wrote:
>
> What is reporting mark PS? Pittsburgh & Shawmut? And MRR?

Tim,

I would venture a guess that MRR stands for Montour Rail Road (I might be
wrong), and belive that their actual reporting mark was just the letter "M".

Matt Forsyth

Modeling the DL&W, Erie, PRR,
NYC, and LV in "O" Scale
Elmira, NY 1951

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Re: Ferroalloys and the RRs [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tony;

I had not thought about that, but it makes perfect sense. I have yet,
however, to ID exactly where they did that, but it was not located at the
integrated facilities I knew.

One last thing; there were very recognizable (and highly varied) sequences of
charging, by layer, that occurred at a blast furnace, that very much
determined how much coke, iron ore, and flux stone you needed, and due to the
volumes required, could deplete stockpiles quickly, so delivery of raw
materials at a given plant was not in any way uniform, or lending itself to
"averaging". One modeling an iron or steel facility should be aware of this
and adjust traffic accordingly. Given the freeze-up of major rivers during
the winter, coal traffic, especially, was highly seasonal (given massive
stockpiling most loads did not deplete as fast as coal did), so one modeling
a delivering RR should create realistic scenarios that revolve around this.

As I dig up more information, I will bring it back to the group.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 5:48 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ferroalloys and the RRs [Was: Prototype for new resin
kits]



Gatwood, Elden wrote:
What I do not know was whether or not ferro-manganese (or even
powdered manganese itself?) might have also been introduced, in
powdered (or less than large chunk) form, into the steel-making charge
(which was iron plus scrap plus various additives based on the steel
desired).
Powder is bad news in charging--there is considerable air velocity and/or
fume velocity which could really move powder anywhere.
You want to charge things that will at least stay put on the surface before
dissolving, better still inject into the bath. That's one reason for
ferroalloys--they dissolve readily. Charging elemental anything raises issues
about how well it dissolves, if it floats or sinks, if it oxidizes before
dissolving, etc.
Thank you, Elden for the interesting summary on USS ferromanganese
production. So much of it is used in plain carbon steels that I'm not
surprised they produced it in-plant, but the same would probably not be true
of smaller mills or foundries.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Coal car loading on "home"roads...A. Thompson's answer.

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tony;

What a coincidence! I used to lay on the loads in those hoppers on long
summer days, watching trains. I lived about 6 blocks away. That was the
steam heat plant. There was a connection to Carnegie Library and Museum.
There was a tiny yard of 2 sidings when I was there (one used as the
run-around). Actually, they did host triples there through the 1970's, as
that was where I first got my appreciation for classes W-7 through W-9, but
you are right, the unloading area within the building could not fit longer
hoppers, and the ends stuck out the door. The VAST majority of hoppers were
B&O. I vividly remember a day they received a buckled triple (B&O) loaded
with coal for the plant, and the concern that was expressed for moving it
over the trestle and into the plant. Those guys were mad! If you say they
had limited it to twins by the 80's, that may have indeed come from a
restriction on the trestle, as I also clearly remember that they had to use
unloaded hoppers as a "handle" much like use of car float flats, between the
engine and loaded cars, and I never saw an engine on that trestle.

Thanks for bringing back those memories!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt
Laughlin
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:04 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home"roads...A. Thompson's
answer.



The steam plant is still there and still rail-served. It is also
"unrealistic" in that there is a switchback to get to the plant.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

I recall, from my days living in Pittsburgh, a very nice small power plant
across Panther Hollow from the Carnegie Mellon campus (where I worked, and
often observed switching at the plant). The cars spotted there were
invariably twins, 50- or 55-ton cars, though by that time (1980s) these had
become rare cars. Why? The trestle into the plant could not handle heavier
cars. The twins were often C&O, and it was a B&O line--but by then it was
really all Chessie anyway.
(Pardon me for alluding to things far in the future for this list. <g>)


Re: Coal car loading on "home"roads...A. Thompson's answer (reprise).

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Folks;

I found this discussion very interesting.

The PRR, for one, in my area had actual "captive" cars, in that they could
not go off-line and were deemed either too od for interchange, or too ratty.
They were often stencilled as such.

The rest of the PRR "coal car" fleet roamed anywhere anyone needed coal or
other on-line bulk minerals, as far as I can figure. You saw PRR hoppers
most anywhere, but obviously as all have observed, declining in number as one
moved ever further from home. If there were intervening sources of coal,
that could be had at a cheaper cost (with transportation costs a big factor
in lower value bulk commodities like coal), then one might not see so many
loads of coal in a PRR hopper! The exceptions, as far as I can see, were for
those requiring a specific type of coal, like use of metallurgic coal in
coking operations, for one. This may have traveled widely. Ordinary
bituminous for power plants? Less so.

In the past, and even recently, I participated in numerous economic geography
studies that demonstrated how far away a business was likely to serve, based
on transportation costs, local availability of commodities, etc. The coal
business fits nicely in this area of study, but I have not been able to find
any studies that specifically focused on this (unlike retail market theory).
I would guess those economies would be the largest determinant on what you
saw and where.

Finally, at the end of this list's timeframe, the PRR did go to designating
cars in captive "turn-around" service, in strings, betweem mine and delivery
point, as so called "unit trains". These truly were not meant to leave a
given routing, back and forth, over and over until not needed, but as we all
know, eventually wandered out into the wider world...

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Brock
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 12:08 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home"roads...A. Thompson's
answer (reprise).



First...donning my Head Judge robes...tattered as they may be...I think we
are forgetting something with this debate about coal carrying cars. Remember
that the STMFC culture welcomes debate. If someone asserts that Santa Fe
designed better frt cars than, say, UP [ we all know, of course, that that
could not be <G> ], that's fine. Let us hear the argument supporting that.
Please bring to the table facts that you might have to support it. If it
turns out that someone else PROVES that Pennsy frt cars were better than
either Santa Fe or UP...fine. That's one function of the STMFC...to ferret
out truth. So, please, we don't have to apologize for disagreeing and we
don't have to worry about offending IF all members are treated with respect.
So, the discussion about coal carrying cars is within scope, is not in itself
offensive, it should not be treated that way and we are probably learning
from it...I hope so anyway. OTOH, if you have no interest in such
cars...simply pass.

Now, removing my robes, I think I'll add a few more comments because I still
think something is missing...perhaps not, however.

Tony Thompson writes:

I won't defend Andy's comment about N&W, since I was then and am now
well aware that N&W hoppers made numerous off-line trips (no, I'm not
going to assess the Sherman Hill story). But please NOTICE what Andy
SAID. He said "for the most part" captive. If that means 80%, as some
data suggest, what on earth is wrong with Andy's statement?
Nothing...except it is perhaps too general. And, I'm not certain of the term
"captive". Let's examine "captive". To me...it means a car is operating in a
confined area. That could be a Mopac hopper car operating on the B&O between
Lake Erie and West Va or it could simply be an N&W hopper operating between
Roanoke and Norfolk. The suggestion is that the car is confined to a
particular RR and appears in this case, to be confined to the home road. If
the definition means confined to the home RR, as I have postulated...based on
the coal moved into specific areas...that 80% percentage fails with regard to
the N&W. At least in 1948. That yr we know N&W sent 63% of its carried coal
offline. The key...to me...is what does this mean from a modeling point of
view? Well, for one thing, those N&W cars were not becoming captive
somewhere...they were coming back home. Second, they had places to go when
off line...they were heading to a locale where by contract, they were to
deliver coal. IOW, it was not like a UP box car that might wander around the
country before coming back home. So, while one might say that 63% of N&W coal
carrying cars went off line [ I realize that such a projection is subject to
more thorough analysis ], that doesn't mean that 100% did not operate on N&W
rails. In fact, I would argue that close to 99% of N&W coal carrying cars
traveled on N&W tracks during a rather short time period [ based on how long
they were off line and the distances off line weren't large ]. The
significance of this simply means that if one models a RR in the area
Illinois, Indiana, Mich, and Ohio, one needs quite a few N&W coal carrying
cars...primarily hoppers. One might also ask about N&W...with its fleet away
from home, were non N&W cars more pravelent? I think not because N&W's cars
were coming back home fairly efficiently from what I read of N&W operations.
However, photo evidence does suggest that other RR's coal carrying cars were
operating on N&W trains. Certainly L&N, Interstate, and Clinchfield cars are
seen in numbers. I don't believe these cars are "captives" in the sense that
N&W is using them, but, more likely they are carrying coal from mines L&N
served [ for example ]...just as Q cars traveled on the C&EI in the Illinois
coal fields...and are proceding to places where by contract the coal is being
delivered...just as N&W cars moved on Pennsy and NYC tracks north of Columbus
[ although north of Columbus, the number of N&W cars was huge ]. What the
numbers of non N&W coal cars on N&W tracks would be is beyond the scope of
this message <G>.

In Matt's case, he is...I think...referring to coal GENERATING RRs whereas I
am referring to coal RECEIVING RRs...NYC, NKP and Pennsy north of Columbus,
other smaller lines northwest of Cincinnati. This is, I think, a significant
difference when it comes to determining home cars on home rails.
IOW, I would bet, as I said, that 99% of N&W coal cars would operate on N&W
tracks within a given, relatively short period of time, but only 63% [ again,
subject to analysis ]...would find their way off line. The time off line,
BTW, would likely be LESS than the time on line by more than traveled
distances might suggest. IOW, in traveling to a lake port, an N&W car might
be off line for, say, 30% of its trip from the mine but it might be off line
for much less than 30% of a specific period of time.

BTW, just because N&W carried coal moved in large quantities north and west
of Cincinnati and Columbus does not mean that RRs depicting areas south and
west of those areas would have N&W coal cars in significant numbers.

Of course, the notion of eastern coal carrying cars operating west of the
Mississippi [ whatever that area is called ] is insignificant. I might add
that I doubt that such coal carrying cars entered the state of Florida very
much during our time period. I'd like to know more about how far south coal
moved by train in our period.

Mike Brock


Re: Hoppers on the Rutland

Armand Premo
 

Rich only reporting what was on the Wheel Report.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers on the Rutland








PS? is Pittsburgh & Shamut

Montour was M? then MTR not MRR

The only reference to MRR I have is Mid-Atlantic RR from 1988 - 1996 when it was taken over? by the Carolina Southern RR.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: mforsyth127 <mforsyth127@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2009 7:26 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers on the Rutland

Tim O'Connor wrote:
>
> What is reporting mark PS? Pittsburgh & Shawmut? And MRR?

Tim,

I would venture a guess that MRR stands for Montour Rail Road (I might be
wrong), and belive that their actual reporting mark was just the letter "M".

Matt Forsyth

Modeling the DL&W, Erie, PRR,
NYC, and LV in "O" Scale
Elmira, NY 1951

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








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Re: Hoppers on the Rutland

Armand Premo
 

Tim,MRR is the Montour.Train # 9 is from Alburgh,Vt to the NYC interchange at Norwood,NY.Train # 9 for the most part was Train #19 from Rutland to Alburgh.Ben Hom did an analysis of company coal reports and this study would pretty much support your theory.and is essentially the same as the month of November.The surprises were the appearance of :Southern, L&N ,CB&Q,CCO ,NC&StL,PWV, INT , C&I ,CNW as well as PS.The Berwyn cars would come in on Train # 10 and would be interchanged with the CV at Alburgh.The BWC cars in Train # 9 were empties as were most of the hoppers in those trains.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Hoppers on the Rutland





Armand, I think one obvious conclusion is that bituminous
coal predominated on the Rutland. I wonder how much of the
coal was for the Rutland's own consumption? Also, the three
largest owners all reached into northern New York state, so
this reinforces the idea that nearby railroads should be
more heavily represented than railroads further away.

What is reporting mark PS? Pittsburgh & Shawmut? And MRR?

What was the route of #9?

Tim O'Connor

>During the month of December 1950 249 hoppers were on Train #9.
>They were as follows:
>
> B&O 76
> PRR 57
> NYC 39
> RDG 12
> BWC 10
> DL&W 9
> D&H 8
> WM 6
> P&LE 4
> LV 4
> MRR 3
> ERIE 3
> N&W 3
> CRP 2
> PWV 2
> CB&Q 1
> L&N 1
> NC&StL 1
> NKP 1
> CNW 1
> SOU 1
> NH 1
> PMcK&Y 1
> INT 1
> C&I 1
> CCO 1
> PS 1
>
>I didn't check the total, but suspect that it is reasonably
>accurate. Can or should one draw any conclusions from the
>above? Your call.Armand Premo






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Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

roblmclear <rob.mclear2@...>
 

I might be wrong but weren't the hoppers on Cajon Pass limited to the coal traffic for Kaiser steel, as I understand this these were mostly by the Rio Grande. This is only from memory mind and I could be wrong, someone out there more knowledgable than me would know, Richard you out there!

Rob.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Tony

Although your layout doesn't represent big coal consumers,
it doesn't mean there weren't many of them in the West. I
have seen (and I'm sure you have too) old films with long
strings of coal hoppers on Donner Pass in the 1950's, not
to mention Cajon Pass...

Tim O

But just to clarify, I remain a Western modeler and can only
operate even single coal hoppers--whatever their reporting marks.--on
my layout with the most agile, sinuous, and logic-defying of rationales.
Tony Thompson


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

roblmclear <rob.mclear2@...>
 

I knew ther'd be a Kiwi out there somewhere, I can show you in the draft of the Australian constitution where it refers to the colonies of New south wales, queensland etc and the NORTH AND SOUTH ISLANDS OF NEW ZEALAND so we're not the west island you're just the missing state! Before I incur the wrath of the moderator back to freight cars.
Rob.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Rupert & Maureen" <gamlenz@...> wrote:

1. The slogan "Everywhere West" first appeared on Q freight cars in 1937, whilst "Way of the Zephyrs" didn't appear until 1940
2. Rob's comment shows why Australia is referred to as New Zealand's West Island

(Given the current frenzy in LA, I can understand the desire of the rest of the "United" States to keep a certain large mountain
range as a geographical dividing point :-) )

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "roblmclear" <rob.mclear2@...>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:46 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.


All

This is great stuff I join the group to learn about freight cars and for extra's I get a geography lesson on the U.S. Now if you
really want to know where the West is, go to L.A. or S.F. and go about 4000 miles in a boat or a plane and you will find the real
west.

Rob Mclear
Brisbane Australia.


Re: Coal car loading on "home"roads...A. Thompson's answer (reprise).

ATSF1226
 

Mike,
Many railrads hauled Coal into the south primarily for power plants and some for the steel industry around Birmingham AL. N&W hauled into North Carolina. Clinchfield/C&O coal to Spartanburg, SC and to a connection with SCL at Bostic, NC. L&N into the Florida panhandle, Southern RR hauled coal all over the south. And I suspect some via the ACL with it's connections to the C&O and N&W.

I think most of this traffic developed after WW2 when power plants began to switch over from Oil to Coal Fired Power Plants.

And I belive that even Florida had electrity by this time.

George A Walls



I might add
that I doubt that such coal carrying cars entered the state of Florida very
much during our time period.
I'd like to know more about how far south coal
moved by train in our period.

Mike Brock


Re: STMFC-era ship

Jim Gates
 

According to the Iowa's entry in the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships,
http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/battlesh/bb61.htm,
the Iowa was in San Francisco from 15 January 1945 until 19 March 1945.

Jim Gates




________________________________
From: Mark Pierce <marcoperforar@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 3:21:43 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: STMFC-era ship





Cranes are included in the wikipedia photo http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ USS_Iowa_(BB-61)
and there is some track and, on the center-left (double-click and enlarge the photo) are two railroad gondolas.

The Iowa was there to repair typhoon damage.

Mark Pierce

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, "Brian Chapman" <cornbeltroute@ ...> wrote:

Yes, the cruisers and battleships were often at Hunters Point, where a large enough crane was available to lift an entire turret from the ship for repair work. <
That must have been one big crane (is it still there?) IIRC, an Iowa Class main turret weighed in at 2700 tons, the equivalent of a WWII destroyer. Each of the four Iowa Class sisters had three of 'em.

Brian


Re: changed subject: railroads at hunters point

Michael McAnally
 

Group:
 
Since we are discussing railroads and the USNavy, let us not forget Naval Weapons Station, Seal Beach, CA, which was commissioned in 1944.  Being the premier weapons station of the Pacific Fleet, it sported a USN railroad, which is still run to this day.
 
I was stationed there 1990-1993; again, 2003-2006; though I was enlisted at the time, I did work very closely with the railroad detatchment (operated by civilians), running GE 44 tonners, and shuffling plenty of PS-1 boxcars, and 40' flats, most of which was built during our groups era.
 
There is quite an intricate system of trackage, with an interchange to now UP (was SP when I was first stationed there.)
 
Michael McAnally

--- On Tue, 7/7/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus.org> wrote:


From: Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus.org>
Subject: [STMFC] Re:changed subject: railroads at hunters point
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 7:27 PM








The RR at Hunters Point was US Navy and it connected with the SP.
What is interesting to me is that like other similar naval shipyards,
this immensely complex railroad was not only used for supply shipments
in and out, but also for a great number of internal intra-yard
movements of munitions, torpedos, etc. Also, my impression has always
been that a good many captive box and flat cars were used as "mobile"
storage. Quite a few of these cars were still there in recent years. I
was not too observant , but the boxcars were relatively small (36'?)
of somewhat antique character , with riveted plated ends. I recall
thinking that one or two should be saved, and was reassured at the
time that some were to be conserved. Whether or not they were when
all the tenants (including the Golden Gate Railroad Museum) were
tossed out of the yard about 5 or 6 years ago, I do not know.

There are perhaps others on this list that can give a more complete
description of these interesting cars. In their lifetime, did they
ever go in interline service?

About ten years ago, I traversed just about all the Hunters Point
trackage in a motor car. It was pretty interesting for awhile, but
after a bit it also got pretty repetitive. One frightening feature
was those sharply curving tracks whose rail ends and open flangeways
squarely and at 90º were ended only by the very edge of the sides of
the submarine pens (there was nothing whatsoever to prevent a car from
rolling off the rail ends directly into deep water). These tracks
were for loading torpedos, which were carried in some type of special
end-loading car directly to the side of the waiting sub.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: New file uploaded to STMFC

Gene Deimling <losgatos48@...>
 

Tim
What war was going on October 24, 1948?

Gene Deimling

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Gene, a wartime photo? The usual rules got waived a lot once
the war really got rolling.



File : /SP 1293 Tracy 28OCT48.jpg
Uploaded by : losgatos48 <losgatos48@...>
Description : DT&I hopper in Tracy, CA being switched by a S-14. I have wondered for years why this car would show up in the Central Valley.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/SP%201293%20Tracy%2028OCT48.jpg

Regards,
losgatos48 <losgatos48@...>

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