Date   

Re: NYCSHS collections

Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...>
 

My thoughts, and they are just that, are to suggest going to an Online
method similar to the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute MRR club did
with their site. Offer a subscription on a monthly basis and allow
people to download what they need. For example I need plans of the
Norwood and Malone Junction NY stations. Do I feel compelled to
purchase a $45 CD without knowing what is on there? No. Would I pay
$20 and download just the two plans, yes.

This also goes to freight cars. I need information on NYC Coal Cars
for 1959-1960 that were used in Northern NY state. Another $45 for a
cd that may or may not be throwing darts in the dark?

I applaud the efforts of NYC HS as it stands but this digital method
may bring in more revenue for the group, and do so at a low cost. Plus
it would definitely increase awareness of what this group has and
offers. If manufacturers know the information is out there, they might
just seek it out and produce what we are looking for.

Alan


On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:57 PM, James Yaworsky<jyaworsky@...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

Other historical societies
(and not just those for the larger railroads) have either established
their own archives or contracted with existing libraries or museums
to store and catalog materials so that they are readily available.
[snip]
 What good is a historical society if its holdings are held
in disorganized limbo where they can't be accessed?

Richard Hendrickson
Richard, I totally agree with you, and you will be glad to learn the following:

From the NYCSHS website:

"The NYC collection of photographs is temporarily unavailable for purchase. The collection has been transferred to the Western Reserve Historical Society in Cleveland, Ohio for cataloging and archiving. Due to the overwhelming size of the collection, this is expected to take considerable time. After this activity has been completed, photographs will again be available for members of the New York Central System Historical Society, and to the general public at competitive rates. The collection has exhibited signs of deterioration in recent years, and the archival efforts of the WRHS will preserve these images for the foreseeable future."


And as has been noted back in this message thread, the drawing collection of the Society has been digitalized and is available.  Perhaps more has to be done to ease the process of getting copies of these drawings, but they are available.  This whole process is an immense task.

Jim Yaworsky






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





--
--
Alan Palmer
http://rrgeekdev.googlepages.com/home


Re: Coal Car Loading on "home" road

Richard Murray
 

We can build exact models of a wide variety of coal cars, but the next question is: what routes did they use once the cars were off home road property? How did DL&W or RDG ship to say Montreal? D&H had their own line into Montreal, as well as the NYC, but what of the others? I have a special interest in coal going North to Montreal because I model the NYC St Lawrence Division in 1957. Dick Murray


Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Dave Nelson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Rob

Nope, not only for steel. Cement manufacturing also uses a lot of
coal -- for heat! And Fontana was not the only steel plant in
California.
Fontana was the only west coast plant that coked coal for use in a blast
furnance and IIRC was the only west coast steel mill that reduced iron ore.
All the other mills started their process at the Open Hearth (needing pig
iron and/or scrap). Foundaries also needed coke but in California (at
least) petroleum coke was readilly available.

There were times when the world price for coal was high enough that Utah
mines could ship their coal to west coast ports for export. I think the
late 50's was one such period and I know coal was exported from the Port of
Oakland then.

Last, cement mills could use other fuel than coal but I've been told coal
ash is a useful adulterant to cement and so is preferred. I dunno about
southern CA but here in central CA the largest one, (originally named)
Kaiser Cement mill in Santa Clara Co has received a trainload of coal once
or twice a week since the 1920's.

Dave Nelson


Re: NYCSHS collections

James Yaworsky
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

Other historical societies
(and not just those for the larger railroads) have either established
their own archives or contracted with existing libraries or museums
to store and catalog materials so that they are readily available.
[snip]
What good is a historical society if its holdings are held
in disorganized limbo where they can't be accessed?

Richard Hendrickson
Richard, I totally agree with you, and you will be glad to learn the following:

From the NYCSHS website:

"The NYC collection of photographs is temporarily unavailable for purchase. The collection has been transferred to the Western Reserve Historical Society in Cleveland, Ohio for cataloging and archiving. Due to the overwhelming size of the collection, this is expected to take considerable time. After this activity has been completed, photographs will again be available for members of the New York Central System Historical Society, and to the general public at competitive rates. The collection has exhibited signs of deterioration in recent years, and the archival efforts of the WRHS will preserve these images for the foreseeable future."


And as has been noted back in this message thread, the drawing collection of the Society has been digitalized and is available. Perhaps more has to be done to ease the process of getting copies of these drawings, but they are available. This whole process is an immense task.

Jim Yaworsky


Re: Modelers research library

Dave Nelson
 

Gene Green wrote:
Ray,
The PDF idea is a good one for those books and other publications on
which the copyright is expired (is expired the correct term?) but
everything published since sometime in the 1970s could not be
"legally" scanned.
Gene, that is not correct. It is my understanding the Congress granted
protection retroactivily to anything that *might* have been in the last
weeks of protection as of 1977... Which translates to 1921. Given that
less than 4% of all works requested a second 28 year term what that means is
~96% of everything copyrighted in the period between 1921 and 1979 *was* in
(or about to be in) the public domain as of 1977 this retroactive change of
status removed **all of that stuff** from the public and returned it to...
Who knows? But you have to find out who before you make that .pdf. Can
you say "Orphaned Works"? Well, just another fine example of our congress
at work! So FWIW, if you tick off the years since that steaming heap of
"logic" became law, I believe the cutoff date is now up to ~1930-32.

Dave Nelson
P.S. In their "wisdom" congress has also granted this missive copyright
protection for my lifetime plus 70 years. Ain't it great they got all the
real problems solved so they had time to grant automatic protection to this
post?


Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.

Dave Nelson
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
That would be the "100th Meridian", supposedly the dividing point
between where farming was possible without irrigation and where it
wasn't.

. . . At least that's what it said on a sign at a rest stop on I-80
in 1983.

KL

True enough Kurt. I considered writing that but, it doesn't work so well
for Canada or Texas, and so I wrote it up as a diagonal region to
accommodate the fact that whereas the meridian does run exactly
north/south, the mountains -- which determines the rainfall -- don't.

Dave Nelson


Re: NYC Hoppers

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 10, 2009, at 11:21 AM, mguill1224@... wrote:

Virtually all of the material compiled, collected and owned by H.
Lansing
Vail is in the possession of the NYCSHS. Regrettably the NYCSHS
does not
have a facility suitable for proper storage, much less research.
So, while
Lans' files remain intact they are not readily accessible.






And the NYCSHS is doing what about this? Other historical societies
(and not just those for the larger railroads) have either established
their own archives or contracted with existing libraries or museums
to store and catalog materials so that they are readily available.
Mr. Vail, when he was alive, and the NYCSHS in general, have never
been forthcoming with access to their collections, not even to
members (except perhaps for a select few) and especially not to non-
members. What good is a historical society if its holdings are held
in disorganized limbo where they can't be accessed?

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Coal for home heating?

Al Campbell
 

Hello Group: I remember when I was young... Boy, don't we all sound
similar, coal delivery to my house in Chelsea MA was from a truck with a
mechanical arrangement to raise the body of the truck. No hydraulics here, to a
suitable height to dump the coal through a little door in the tailgate. Our
house was not set up to dump coal into a chute through a cellar window. The
men working the truck, usually three of them would fill canvas baskets and
walk them to the cellar window. The baskets probably weighed about 75 or so
pounds with a 50 foot walk. The coal we burned was anthracite most of the
time. My assumption is that the coal would have traveled via NYC hoppers
to a dealer in Chelsea or Everett. I'm pretty sure the B&M handled
bituminous coal for its own use and for commercial and industrial use. That would
have come in on barges to Mystic Terminal in Charlestown. Sometimes we would
burn coke and most likely it would be locally produced at a coal
gasification plant. Everett had a monster gasification plant which I guess belonged
to Boston Gas. There were others in Malden and Lynn I think. I'm not sure if
Chelsea had a gas plant. This was all around sixty years ago so don't be
surprised if there are some inaccuracies in what was said. I would like to
learn more about this industry. Anyone have suggestions to resources? Books,
web sites or whatever. Regards, Al Campbell
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
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Re: "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???

Armand Premo
 

If you are happy with it that's all that counts.The majority will never know the difference. Ignorance is bliss.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???





Charlie Vlk wrote:
> Tony-
> I actually agree with you.... the general "taste" if you will, has
> improved to the point where people are sensitive to "wrong"....when
> I said "some" I meant the hard-core few boneheads that are
> perversely contrary no matter how much intormation is presented to
> them.
> To me information and learning is a Major part of the Hobby and
> probably why my personal modeling suffers... I want DATA!!!! MORE
> DATA!!!

Couldn't agree more, and I suspect most of this list membership
feels at least part of that same impulse. And let's all keep in mind
how high are standards today, and how much really good stuff is being
produced. Richard Hendrickson likes to say, "Guys, this IS the golden
age." I think he's right.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Re: "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
Tony-
I actually agree with you.... the general "taste" if you will, has improved to the point where people are sensitive to "wrong"....when I said "some" I meant the hard-core few boneheads that are perversely contrary no matter how much intormation is presented to them.
To me information and learning is a Major part of the Hobby and probably why my personal modeling suffers... I want DATA!!!! MORE DATA!!!
Couldn't agree more, and I suspect most of this list membership feels at least part of that same impulse. And let's all keep in mind how high are standards today, and how much really good stuff is being produced. Richard Hendrickson likes to say, "Guys, this IS the golden age." I think he's right.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???

Stokes John
 

Your "confession" here, Charlie, hits the point, sometimes too much information is really too much for most people. It can become bewildering trying to keep up with perfection for every car in your collection, especially if your main interest is in operation or just running a close approximation of a specific or proto freelanced road and enjoy seeing and running trains. I think that is the vast majority of the market, and something that is close still gets the cigar if it looks like the car and looks good to the eye.

Yes standards have been improving, and what people will accept keeps creeping up, but at some point the joy of model railroading overcomes the angst of "is this car absolutely prototypical in every respect and I can't live with it if not." For collectors and stmfc aficionados, nearing perfecting may be the goal, and if that floats their boat, great.

I am not in any way saying that the work to gain more knowledge and prototypical information, and influence manufacturers to try harder to be accurate in design, execution and painting of freight cars is not something that should be encouraged, to the contrary. But don't get depressed or angry or denigrate the vast less washed because your ideals and wishes for all the esoteric and perfect cars you want may be slow in being fulfilled.

Keep up the good work, but keep smiling, this is a hobby.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA

To: STMFC@...
From: cvlk@...
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:20:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???


























Tony-

I actually agree with you.... the general "taste" if you will, has improved to the point where people are sensitive to "wrong"....

when I said "some" I meant the hard-core few boneheads that are perversely contrary no matter how much intormation is presented to them.

To me information and learning is a Major part of the Hobby and probably why my personal modeling suffers... I want DATA!!!! MORE DATA!!!

Charlie Vlk


Re: Coal for home heating?

Victor Bitleris
 

As I recall, the coal delivery trucks had several conveyors they carried with them. I believe they were electrically operated and had corner turn pieces as well. I don't remember any of the coal delivery guys using wheel barrows much, but they also had them hanging off the back of the trucks. I wonder if any coal delivery companies exists any longer?

Vic Bitleris
Raleigh, NC



To: STMFC@...
From: jimandlisa97225@...
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:49:40 -0700
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Coal for home heating?


























I too used an ex coal bin as my hobby room when I was young. A work table

across one end and lots of display shelves around the rest of the

approximately 6x12 room. What I have never wondered until now is How did the

coal get into that bin? The window was on the side of the house more than

100 feet from the alley. Wheelbarrow? Wow, that would have been a lot of

work.



Jim Hayes

Portland Oregon

www.sunshinekits.com






















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Re: "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???

Tim O'Connor
 

My Dad was not unwashed -- he bought Cyclopedias, clipped articles
from magazines, took thousands of prototype photos, built dozens of
craftsman kits -- but I'm convinced he never knew the difference
between a PS-1 and an AAR box car, much less the more subtle
differences we all know and love. And it's not his age or era
either, because many people on this list are nearly as old (he
was born in 1926) and some may be older. I'm the one who absorbed
it all -- I was like a sponge for that stuff. He continued to buy
junk models, AND good prototype models, until he stopped buying
anything at all a few years ago. I think there are a lot of
hobbyists out there like him! They're not stupid, but it's just
not what turns them on. Different strokes for different folks.

Tim O'Connor

Charlie Vlk wrote:
I grant you that there are some among us that don't want to know and
won't be swayed by knowledge.... but most people can be educated and
are willing to learn.... especially in the Hobby of Model Railroading.
I don't think this is true, Charlie. But I do think that lots of
the GUW in fact are QUITE sensitive to things that are "wrong."
Somewhat inaccurate -- hey, they can live with that -- but "wrong"
seems to hit a button. That's not what I'd call education, though.
They don't want to know the "why" for themselves.

Tony Thompson


Re: NYC Hoppers

James Yaworsky
 

I shall ask, and get back to you.

Jim Yaworsky

--- In STMFC@..., Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...> wrote:

So how does one find out what building plans are in this collection?

Alan

--
Alan Palmer
Ottawa, Ontario
rrgeekdev@...

Sent from my TelusMobility wireless device.

-----Original Message-----
From: "James Yaworsky" <jyaworsky@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 7/10/2009 2:55 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYC Hoppers

--- In STMFC@..., Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@> wrote:

How much are these CD's?

Alan

from the NYCHS website: http://nycshs.blogspot.com/search?q=cd

Drawing CDs Now Available
Through grants by the generosity of the DeLong-Sweet Foundation, The Amherst Railway Society, and a member who wishes to remain anonymous, the Society has been able to digitize the majority of our official drawing collection. There are approximately 12,000 drawings available on Compact Disk covering approximately seventy different categories, including all steam locomotive classes, painting and lettering drawings, passenger cars, freight cars, MDT cars, diesel and electric locomotives, and others. This collection will be invaluable to modelers who model specific motive power and equipment. There are over 400 drawings available for J-1 Hudsons, over 800 drawings available for J-3 Hudsons, and over 700 drawings available for Niagaras and L-4 Mohawks, to cite a few examples. In addition, CDs are available of Valuation maps of the Boston & Albany main line, and CDs are also available of some equipment diagram books.

The price per CD for as many drawings as will fit on each CD is $45.00, postpaid. Ohio residents must add $3.25 sales tax. Depending on file size, between 27 and 400 drawings will fit on a CD. Purchasers are required to sign an End User License Agreement (EULA) which limits use of the files to the purchaser, prohibits electronic mailing and posting, etc. The Directors believe that if the files were to be posted, the value of the collection would be compromised, to the detriment of our members. Inquiries must include a contact phone number and email address, and should be made to:

NYCSHS Drawing CD
Dept W
PO Box 81184
Cleveland, OH 44181-0184


I hope this info helps.

Jim Yaworsky
Windsor, Ontario
NYCHS member...



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???

Charlie Vlk
 

Tony-
I actually agree with you.... the general "taste" if you will, has improved to the point where people are sensitive to "wrong"....
when I said "some" I meant the hard-core few boneheads that are perversely contrary no matter how much intormation is presented to them.
To me information and learning is a Major part of the Hobby and probably why my personal modeling suffers... I want DATA!!!! MORE DATA!!!
Charlie Vlk


Re: NYC Hoppers

Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...>
 

So how does one find out what building plans are in this collection?

Alan

--
Alan Palmer
Ottawa, Ontario
rrgeekdev@...

Sent from my TelusMobility wireless device.

-----Original Message-----
From: "James Yaworsky" <jyaworsky@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 7/10/2009 2:55 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYC Hoppers

--- In STMFC@..., Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...> wrote:

How much are these CD's?

Alan

from the NYCHS website: http://nycshs.blogspot.com/search?q=cd

Drawing CDs Now Available
Through grants by the generosity of the DeLong-Sweet Foundation, The Amherst Railway Society, and a member who wishes to remain anonymous, the Society has been able to digitize the majority of our official drawing collection. There are approximately 12,000 drawings available on Compact Disk covering approximately seventy different categories, including all steam locomotive classes, painting and lettering drawings, passenger cars, freight cars, MDT cars, diesel and electric locomotives, and others. This collection will be invaluable to modelers who model specific motive power and equipment. There are over 400 drawings available for J-1 Hudsons, over 800 drawings available for J-3 Hudsons, and over 700 drawings available for Niagaras and L-4 Mohawks, to cite a few examples. In addition, CDs are available of Valuation maps of the Boston & Albany main line, and CDs are also available of some equipment diagram books.

The price per CD for as many drawings as will fit on each CD is $45.00, postpaid. Ohio residents must add $3.25 sales tax. Depending on file size, between 27 and 400 drawings will fit on a CD. Purchasers are required to sign an End User License Agreement (EULA) which limits use of the files to the purchaser, prohibits electronic mailing and posting, etc. The Directors believe that if the files were to be posted, the value of the collection would be compromised, to the detriment of our members. Inquiries must include a contact phone number and email address, and should be made to:

NYCSHS Drawing CD
Dept W
PO Box 81184
Cleveland, OH 44181-0184


I hope this info helps.

Jim Yaworsky
Windsor, Ontario
NYCHS member...



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
I grant you that there are some among us that don't want to know and won't be swayed by knowledge.... but most people can be educated and are willing to learn.... especially in the Hobby of Model Railroading.
I don't think this is true, Charlie. But I do think that lots of the GUW in fact are QUITE sensitive to things that are "wrong." Somewhat inaccurate -- hey, they can live with that -- but "wrong" seems to hit a button. That's not what I'd call education, though. They don't want to know the "why" for themselves.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: NYC Hoppers

James Yaworsky
 

--- In STMFC@..., Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...> wrote:

How much are these CD's?

Alan

from the NYCHS website: http://nycshs.blogspot.com/search?q=cd

Drawing CDs Now Available
Through grants by the generosity of the DeLong-Sweet Foundation, The Amherst Railway Society, and a member who wishes to remain anonymous, the Society has been able to digitize the majority of our official drawing collection. There are approximately 12,000 drawings available on Compact Disk covering approximately seventy different categories, including all steam locomotive classes, painting and lettering drawings, passenger cars, freight cars, MDT cars, diesel and electric locomotives, and others. This collection will be invaluable to modelers who model specific motive power and equipment. There are over 400 drawings available for J-1 Hudsons, over 800 drawings available for J-3 Hudsons, and over 700 drawings available for Niagaras and L-4 Mohawks, to cite a few examples. In addition, CDs are available of Valuation maps of the Boston & Albany main line, and CDs are also available of some equipment diagram books.

The price per CD for as many drawings as will fit on each CD is $45.00, postpaid. Ohio residents must add $3.25 sales tax. Depending on file size, between 27 and 400 drawings will fit on a CD. Purchasers are required to sign an End User License Agreement (EULA) which limits use of the files to the purchaser, prohibits electronic mailing and posting, etc. The Directors believe that if the files were to be posted, the value of the collection would be compromised, to the detriment of our members. Inquiries must include a contact phone number and email address, and should be made to:

NYCSHS Drawing CD
Dept W
PO Box 81184
Cleveland, OH 44181-0184


I hope this info helps.

Jim Yaworsky
Windsor, Ontario
NYCHS member...


Re: Coal for home heating?

Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

I too used an ex coal bin as my hobby room when I was young. A work table
across one end and lots of display shelves around the rest of the
approximately 6x12 room. What I have never wondered until now is How did the
coal get into that bin? The window was on the side of the house more than
100 feet from the alley. Wheelbarrow? Wow, that would have been a lot of
work.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com


Re: "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???

Charlie Vlk
 

Tim-
But even the people that buy by paintscheme are becoming more sophisticated.... the paint schemes that sell are more accurate renditions than you saw a couple of decades ago.
The general trend in the industry is towards more accuracy..... even in trainset-level stuff ..... maybe because the entry-level stuff isn't going out to the general public as much as it did at one time......trains are not truly just another "toy" nowadays.
I grant you that there are some among us that don't want to know and won't be swayed by knowledge.... but most people can be educated and are willing to learn.... especially in the Hobby of Model Railroading.
The good news is that almost all manufacturers know that you have to build to the high end of the spectrum... you can sell stuff that is too accurate (for at least one prototype) to all but you can't sell made-up stuff to anybody but the low end. Only one importer persists in selling old tooling in bogus paint (including, incredibly, the Marx F3!! which in its day was a poor copy of the Varney F3!!!) and they are pretty much off the radar lately and you don't see their products very much anywhere.
Charlie Vlk

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