Date   

Re: 1937 AAR boxcar rivet seams (was underframe question)

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

Yes, a builder photo of SP 33420, a B-50-18 built by ACF,
has lap seams. But one of the LIFE collection photos that is
a close up of the right side of a B-50-18 definitely shows
crimped seams. Unfortunately the car number can't be seen.
I do have shots of SP 116038 and it also has crimped seams.
Tony perhaps you know which car was renumbered as 116038?

These are the earliest SP 1937 cars so at least it shows that
both seam styles were produced concurrently in 1936-1937.

Tim O'Connor

Anyone want to take a whack at the 1937 AAR box car list on Ted's
old site and figure out which cars had which type of side
sheathing? :-)
Looking at SP's 1937 AAR cars, most had the overlap seams, but
the differences appear to be by builder, not by car class, suggesting
that at least in SP's case, the seam type was NOT something chosen by
the buyer.

Tony Thompson


Re: 1937 AAR boxcar underframe question

Tim O'Connor
 

MMDV (My Mileage Does Vary) -- I prefer correct floors myself.
If the vendor is confused about the number or placement of the
stringers, then just leave 'em off!!

The question is Richard, do you care about crimped vs lap seams?
I mean, those are definitely visible...

:-)

Tim O'Connor

P.S. I only have one Yardmaster kit. Now I guess I'll start to
pay more attention to them. I never noticed the side and floor
details. And the doors open too!

I infer from this evidence that the underframe with only one stringer
per side was common, if not universal, practice on prewar AAR
standard box cars, and continued to be used on at least some 10'0" IH
cars into the postwar period. Some railroads may have specified only
one stringer per side to reduce weight, others may have specified two
(or even three) per side for stronger floor support. At this point,
which cars had which arrangement is in most cases impossible to
determine, and photographic evidence tells us nothing. Conclusion:
the model underframe with only one stringer per side is certainly not
incorrect, as many prototype cars were built that way, but the two-
stringer design may have been more common on taller Alternate
Standard cars and may have become more common on 10'0" IH cars
through WW II and into the postwar era. In any case, the number of
floor stringers is invisible when a model is on the track, so
personally I don't give a damn. But YMMV.
Richard Hendrickson


Re: 1937 AAR boxcar underframe question

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Anyone want to take a whack at the 1937 AAR box car list on Ted's old site and figure out which cars had which type of side sheathing? :-)
Looking at SP's 1937 AAR cars, most had the overlap seams, but the differences appear to be by builder, not by car class, suggesting that at least in SP's case, the seam type was NOT something chosen by the buyer.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: 1937 AAR boxcar underframe question

Tim O'Connor
 

The irony of course is that Intermountain copied Red Caboose's car,
including the incorrect stringers, instead of its own O scale box car
kits which included both crimped and lap seam versions.

Anyone want to take a whack at the 1937 AAR box car list on Ted's old
site and figure out which cars had which type of side sheathing? :-)

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/1937aarpdfmain.html

Tim O'Connor

At 8/16/2009 04:28 PM Sunday, you wrote:
One of the reasons that I am taking an interest in the Branchline '37 AAR car is because of the very visible different side panel sheet difference the Branchline mold designer utilized. The RC/Intmt cars have the crimped seam overlap, which is not the dominant trait for the AAR cars. It seems to me that the overlap seam as done by Branchline is the more common one. At least it gives us a little more variety...
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: 1937 AAR boxcar underframe question

Greg Martin
 

Andy writes:

"One of the reasons that I am taking an interest in the Branchline '37 AAR
car is because of the very visible different side panel sheet difference
the Branchline mold designer utilized. The RC/Intmt cars have the crimped
seam overlap, which is not the dominant trait for the AAR cars. It seems to
me that the overlap seam as done by Branchline is the more common one. At
least it gives us a little more variety...
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA"


Andy,

If you get an opportunity to go to the OERM in Perris, Ca you can find a
couple of US Navy cars with the crimped seam and the UP car with the lap
seams.


Greg Martin


Re: 1937 AAR boxcar underframe question

Andy Carlson
 

One of the reasons that I am taking an interest in the Branchline '37 AAR car is because of the very visible different side panel sheet difference the Branchline mold designer utilized. The RC/Intmt cars have the crimped seam overlap, which is not the dominant trait for the AAR cars. It seems to me that the overlap seam as done by Branchline is the more common one. At least it gives us a little more variety...
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: 1937 AAR boxcar underframe question

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Aug 16, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:

....While test fitting parts, I noticed that the Branchline'37
underframe has but ONE stringer per side. I have thought that the
'37 underframe should have 2 stringers per side, all equidistant
(Unlike the aforementioned IntMt/RC kits).

My question- was the single stringer design ever used, or do we
still have NO '37 underframe which is close to being correct?
The genesis of this practice of molding model underframes with only
one floor stringer per side is easily traced, as that is what's shown
in the drawings of the 1937 AAR standard box car that were published
in the 1937, 1940, and 1943 Car Builders' Cyclopedias, as well as the
photo of the AAR standard underframe in the Cycs' underframe
section. By 1946, the Cyc drawing illustrating the AAR standard
design was of an Erie car built in 1941 with alternate standard
height of 10'4-1/2", and that car had two stringers per side.
Drawings of the AAR standard 50' single and double door box/
automobile cars also show two stringers per side. However, the same
photo of a 40' underframe with only one stringer per side continued
to appear in the '46 Cyc's underframe section. By 1953, there was no
general arrangement drawing of an AAR box car in the Cyc but drawings
of AAR box car underframes with two stringers per side and three per
side were shown in the car construction section. Bethlehem steel,
however, had an ad showing a light weight welded underframe with only
one stringer per side.
I infer from this evidence that the underframe with only one stringer
per side was common, if not universal, practice on prewar AAR
standard box cars, and continued to be used on at least some 10'0" IH
cars into the postwar period. Some railroads may have specified only
one stringer per side to reduce weight, others may have specified two
(or even three) per side for stronger floor support. At this point,
which cars had which arrangement is in most cases impossible to
determine, and photographic evidence tells us nothing. Conclusion:
the model underframe with only one stringer per side is certainly not
incorrect, as many prototype cars were built that way, but the two-
stringer design may have been more common on taller Alternate
Standard cars and may have become more common on 10'0" IH cars
through WW II and into the postwar era. In any case, the number of
floor stringers is invisible when a model is on the track, so
personally I don't give a damn. But YMMV.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Erie 65000 series fifty-foot auto box car

Eric Hansmann
 

Ed Hawkins wrote:

In my original reply I never stated that only the B end had a ladder.
What I said was that the ends were painted brown and the "B" end ladder
was black. However, that statement wasn't complete and accurate. I
looked closer at my notes taken from the bill of materials, and my
notes state that both end ladders were black. In the 3/4 builder's
photo of Erie 65039 that I have, the B end is partially visible, but
the color of the ladder and end cannot be determined from the photo. I
did not make a copy of the A end that had Dreadnaught end doors, but
the Fallen-Flags web site has a photo of the end doors for Erie 65000.
In this photo it's very hard to tell the colors of either the end or
the ladder. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie65000adb.jpg

I recommend that anyone wanting to further pursue this and to ensure
they have correct painting information, contact Gregg Ames at the St.
Louis Mercantile Library (gpames@...) and request a photocopy of
the painting specs from the bill of materials for ACF lot 2153. That
way you're looking at printed information created by the builder.

===============================


Ed,

Thank you for your update and additional comments. I am working on the ladders for this P2K
upgrade now. This has been an interesting project as there is more to the upgrade than meets
the eye. So far I have:

** Added additional sill material to the left of the doors.
** Noted the prototype ladders are 8-rung on the sides and 7-rung on the ends, not what was
with the kit. I'm glad I still have a few sprues of ladders I bought from Andy Carlson at a
past Naperville meet.
** Scrounged up an Apex running board to replace the kit supplied wood version.
** Scrounged up an Apex brake platform to replace the kit version.
** Replaced the plastic brake rods with wire.
** Added strap material to mount the end tack boards and lowered the height to reflect the
prototype.
** Confirmed that it really is an Ajax brake wheel supplied with the kit, which is proper for
the Erie car.
** Scrounged up a pair of the smaller routing boards to apply to the doors below the tack
boards.

After all is complete, the model will be a good stand-in for this car in 1948-1949. The
prototype Erie cars had slightly wider steel sheathing panels than what is represented on the
P2K kit. It will be close, but no cigar. Photos and play-by-play coming soon.

Eric



Eric Hansmann
Chagrin Falls, Ohio
Starting over in a new house:
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/


1937 AAR boxcar underframe question

Andy Carlson
 

Hi,
I was exploring the idea that maybe using Branchline Trainmaster '37 AAR boxcars would be less work, even with shaving off the side ladders, than correcting the underframe mistakes that both Intermountain's and IMWX/Red Caboose's 1937 AAR cars feature. I have a sizable stock of Intermountain 4/5 EDEs, so the only carving would be for the side ladders/bracket grabs. The Branchline rectangular panel roof is a huge improvement over the Intmt. version, though the Red Caboose roof fits the Imt. car quite nicely, and it is a very good roof.

While test fitting parts, I noticed that the Branchline'37 underframe has but ONE stringer per side. I have thought that the '37 underframe should have 2 stringers per side, all equidistant (Unlike the aforementioned IntMt/RC kits).

My question- was the single stringer design ever used, or do we still have NO '37 underframe which is close to being correct?

Thanks to any answers you folks can/may provide.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: MAINE TOFC QUESTION

Roger Robar
 

_____

From: On Behalf Of joel norman
Subject: [STMFC] MAINE TOFC QUESTION



GENTLEMAN: Not sure how much TOFC there was out or into MAINE during the
late 40;s into 1955(my cut off year)thats one part of the question,the other
is was the BAR/BM/MEC heavy in that traffic and if so what type of flat
would have the 3 used?jury rigged or factory bilt(would guess 50'trailers
and 50'flat cars???)
Thanks
Joel Norman



Joel,

The book "Northern N.E. Color Guide" to Freight & Pass. Equipment has
photos and info on the BAR / BM / MEC TOFC's. Basically this service started
in 1959 and lasted 8-yrs or so.

Roger Robar



._,___


MAINE TOFC QUESTION

joel norman <mec-bml@...>
 

GENTLEMAN:Not sure how much TOFC there was out or into MAINE during the late 40;s into 1955(my cut off year)thats one part of the question,the other is was the BAR/BM/MEC heavy in that traffic and if so what type of flat would have the 3 used?jury rigged or factory bilt(would guess 50'trailers and 50'flat cars???)
Thanks
Joel Norman


Re: Adjusting wheelset gauge

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Justin Walker" <justin@...> wrote:

I have been completing maintenance on a number of freight cars including ensuring the gauge on wheelsets is correct and have come across some stubborn wheelsets that are under-gauge. I have tried the usual method of twisting the wheels on the axle but these particular sets are refusing to budge. Given the sharp point I dont see any obvious way of using the NWSL Puller without damaiging the axle tip.

How are others getting around this issue?

Have you considered machining a piece, or having a piece made for you, with a pointed cavity to use with the NWSL Puller so the axle point would not be damaged?

Just a thought, Don Valentine


Re: DSS&A-SOO PS-1 box car

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

This is an Ebay seller's slide taken in 2002! This car
was built in 1948, and it still has high ladders and a
running board...

http://www.first-out.com/ebay/0801332.jpg

Tim O'Connor

Nice to see that some folks still know how to run a railroad properly! (-:

Don Valentine


Adjusting wheelset gauge

Q1xamacarthur1 <Q1xaMacArthur1@...>
 

I have made up a special punch that I have drilled a hole
into its bottom end. This allows the point of the axles to
go up into it and not get broken while using this punch
to move axles through the wheels. Using light hammer taps.

The wheels are placed in or on top of a ordinary vise partly open.
This depends on which way it is out of gauge.

You may have to grind away under the vise jaws to let a wheel
pass under it. I did that to my Miller Falls years ago.

Ed Kirstatter, B&O Modeler.
____________________________________________________________
The difference is clear. Click now for a great laminating machine!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTG3HtoxTBJut2tjyVHWqAdTrT245LztfDzI6HCyN7l3T6CmJ1b5mQ/


Re: Adjusting wheelset gauge

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Justin--

Here's my solution in you're working in HO--

Have you a bench or a small table-top vice? If so, I'd unscrew the steel knurled face pieces on the jaws and screw in a new special facxes for pulling the wheels. These are a short piece of mild steel stock screwed into each vice jaw, say 3/16" to 1/4" thick, about 1/2" high above the top of the vice jaws and the length of the face pieces that you've removed, slotted vertically about 1/4"--1/2" to receive the axle. Both slots must be the same height above the top of the vice. A few minutes' work with a hacksaw and drill (if you have a drill press/pillar drill this work will be easier), and perhaps a trip to the hardware store to buy the steel strip that you'll need.

Close the vice and place the steel pieces in between the wheels, dropping the axle in the slots. The steel tabs will rest against the backs of the wheels. You may have to drill recesses at the bottom of the slots on the steel stock if the insulation protrudes from the wheel towards the centre of the wheelset, so as not to damage the insulation.

Crank the vice outward very slowly and carefully until you are at the desired gauging. Good luck.

Steve Lucas.

-- In STMFC@..., "Justin Walker" <justin@...> wrote:

I have been completing maintenance on a number of freight cars including ensuring the gauge on wheelsets is correct and have come across some stubborn wheelsets that are under-gauge. I have tried the usual method of twisting the wheels on the axle but these particular sets are refusing to budge. Given the sharp point I dont see any obvious way of using the NWSL Puller without damaiging the axle tip.

How are others getting around this issue?

Cheers

Justin Walker
Gold Coast, AUSTRALIA


Re: MAINE TOFC QUESTION

Charles Hladik
 

Joel,
I don't have your answer but don't think that 50 foot trailers came
into being until after 1955. Probably 30 foot or so.
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 8/16/2009 12:39:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mec-bml@... writes:




GENTLEMAN:Not sure how much TOFC there was out or into MAINE during the
late 40;s into 1955(my cut off year)thats one part of the question,the other
is was the BAR/BM/MEC heavy in that traffic and if so what type of flat
would have the 3 used?jury rigged or factory bilt(would guess 50'trailers and
50'flat cars???)
Thanks
Joel Norman


Pressed Stel Car Company strike

Eric Hansmann
 

The Pittsburgh Post Gazette has an overview on the bloody strike that happened 100 years ago at
the Pressed Steel Car Company in McKees Rocks, Penna. Details are here:
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09228/990709-28.stm

We discuss many freight cars but we may forget the men who toiled over the construction of
these cars. The story provides insight to working conditions and other aspects of factory life
a century ago.

Eric



Eric Hansmann
Chagrin Falls, Ohio
Starting over in a new house:
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/


Re: Erie 65000 series fifty-foot auto box car

Armand Premo
 

Thank you Ed.I obviously misread your post.Sorry about that.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Hawkins
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Erie 65000 series fifty-foot auto box car



On Aug 15, 2009, at 7:02 PM, Armand Premo wrote:

> I would like to question the statement about the ladder being on only
> the B end.Is that allowed?Isn't this a violation of ARA /ICC safety
> regs?Armand Premo

Armand,
In my original reply I never stated that only the B end had a ladder.
What I said was that the ends were painted brown and the "B" end ladder
was black. However, that statement wasn't complete and accurate. I
looked closer at my notes taken from the bill of materials, and my
notes state that both end ladders were black. In the 3/4 builder's
photo of Erie 65039 that I have, the B end is partially visible, but
the color of the ladder and end cannot be determined from the photo. I
did not make a copy of the A end that had Dreadnaught end doors, but
the Fallen-Flags web site has a photo of the end doors for Erie 65000.
In this photo it's very hard to tell the colors of either the end or
the ladder. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie65000adb.jpg

I recommend that anyone wanting to further pursue this and to ensure
they have correct painting information, contact Gregg Ames at the St.
Louis Mercantile Library (gpames@...) and request a photocopy of
the painting specs from the bill of materials for ACF lot 2153. That
way you're looking at printed information created by the builder.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins








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Adjusting wheelset gauge

Justin Walker <justin@...>
 

I have been completing maintenance on a number of freight cars including ensuring the gauge on wheelsets is correct and have come across some stubborn wheelsets that are under-gauge. I have tried the usual method of twisting the wheels on the axle but these particular sets are refusing to budge. Given the sharp point I dont see any obvious way of using the NWSL Puller without damaiging the axle tip.

How are others getting around this issue?

Cheers

Justin Walker
Gold Coast, AUSTRALIA


Re: Erie 65000 series fifty-foot auto box car

Ed Hawkins
 

On Aug 15, 2009, at 7:02 PM, Armand Premo wrote:

I would like to question the statement about the ladder being on only
the B end.Is that allowed?Isn't this a violation of ARA /ICC safety
regs?Armand Premo
Armand,
In my original reply I never stated that only the B end had a ladder.
What I said was that the ends were painted brown and the "B" end ladder
was black. However, that statement wasn't complete and accurate. I
looked closer at my notes taken from the bill of materials, and my
notes state that both end ladders were black. In the 3/4 builder's
photo of Erie 65039 that I have, the B end is partially visible, but
the color of the ladder and end cannot be determined from the photo. I
did not make a copy of the A end that had Dreadnaught end doors, but
the Fallen-Flags web site has a photo of the end doors for Erie 65000.
In this photo it's very hard to tell the colors of either the end or
the ladder. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie65000adb.jpg

I recommend that anyone wanting to further pursue this and to ensure
they have correct painting information, contact Gregg Ames at the St.
Louis Mercantile Library (gpames@...) and request a photocopy of
the painting specs from the bill of materials for ACF lot 2153. That
way you're looking at printed information created by the builder.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

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