I am having a USRA Boxcar painted for NYC and Westerfield recommends mineral brown. I model 1941 or so. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good mineral brown? I see that testors offers an ATSF mineral brown, will that work for a NYC mineral brown? Thanks for your help.

http://www.testors.com/products/137309



Jason Sanford

I would venture, given that the car is a Santa Fe car, that the radial roof was probably from a donor Santa Fe boxcar, which Al Westerfield has produced in resin. Perhaps Al could be approached about offering the roof separately. Would a 40' roof be too short......
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




The image on the link below is from the Kansas Memories collection of the Kansas State Historical Society.

The image (taken between 1941 and 1945) is described as, "A view of an Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe Railway hopper car at the shops in Topeka, Kansas. The hopper car was modified using a box car roof and had a main function of carrying grain."

http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/51171

The NP style radial roof for their NP stock car is available as a
separate part from Central Valley. They are sold in pairs.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Friends,

Did you notice that the roof is radial? Radial roofs of different types
would be neat parts to have in plastic, sort of like the Des Plaines
Viking roof.

Kind regards,

Garth G. Groff
____________________________________________________________
Lose up to 20 lbs in one month with a new diet. Click here.
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These are all helpful thoughts - thanks very much for the info on Mylar, and for the reminders about plate thickness on tank cars. The three overlapping layers of the tank remain a challenge to do well, but perhaps something other than thinner stock is the answer. Also appreciated the references to other sources of polystyrene sheet and Tom Madden's neat idea using labels. Lots for me to chew on.... I had used brass for a previous model but hadn't liked what I got as the CA had created bumps that held it out of round a marginal but real amount. That was before Archer rivets and I had difficulty with the embossed rivets holding too much CA on the undersides before the joint was made. In the world of Archer rivets that may be easier to handle - worth trying again.
Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 8:39 AM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Polyester shim material

--- In STMFC@..., "Rob Kirkham" <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

I take your point Bruce, but doesn't using thicker material in the first
place just compound that problem where the overlaps occur?

I'm applying the first wrappers to a nice smooth cylinder. If they can be
glued with solvent, there shouldn't be a texture. The next course over top
(the bottom horizontal course) can be .005 (and you might talk me in to
.010"). I think I can get away with it - or at least would like to try.
Assuming a suitable material can be found.

Rob Kirkham

Rob,

Polyester sheet is known by the trade name Mylar, among others. It is extremely resistant to most solvents, and is used as the outer surface of scratch resistant safety glazing such as Mar-gard and Tuffak. You might find that you even have trouble bonding to polyester with CA.

You might be better off looking at brass shim stock, which should be available from any industrial supply house. Brass shim is available in .001, .0015, .002, .003, .004, and various greater thicknesses, and can be cemented with either Barge Cement or CA. Shim stock is normally a softer temper than the half hard brass we are used to seeing, so is easier to make conform to curves with little spring-back.

I need to question the need for such thin material when modeling tankcars, however. Tankcar tanks use some of the thickest plate used in freightcar construction. A quick look in the 1922 CBC is turning up a lot of 3/8" and 1/2" plate call-outs. .005" is .435" in HO scale, 7/16", exactly half way between those dimensions. .004" material scales thinner than 3/8" plate.

I've found in designing tooling for HO scale products that .003" is about as thin a step as I want to go to represent the thinner plate used on boxcars; I have occasionally used .002" steps where two different surfaces adjoin a third to keep the difference from lowest to highest from looking too gross, but the .002" step does not look very satisfying, even though it does scale out to 3/16".

Dennis






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Friends,

Did you notice that the roof is radial? Radial roofs of different types would be neat parts to have in plastic, sort of like the Des Plaines Viking roof.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

gary laakso wrote:

The footnote for the class list in Richard Hendrickson's new book, Santa FE Open-Top Cars: Flat, Gondola and Hopper Cars 1902-1959 states: "25 cars equipped with roofs and roof hatches in 1941 and renumbered 18211-182134; 50 cars equipped with roofs and roof hatches for grain loading in 1945." page 319

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

The image on the link below is from the Kansas Memories collection of the Kansas State Historical Society.

The image (taken between 1941 and 1945) is described as, "A view of an Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe Railway hopper car at the shops in Topeka, Kansas. The hopper car was modified using a box car roof and had a main function of carrying grain."

http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/51171

What else is known about this car or the car building program?

Thank you.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

On Sep 9, 2009, at 3:05 PM, cabincar2834 wrote:

About the new Athearn airslide covered hopper: I was looking at the
"plain" GACX cars and note that both the roof and bays are black. I
have what looks to be a builders photo of GACX 42627 and the lettering
is a dead-on match to this car other than the Ann Arbor roadname and
pennant herald for this leased car. The bays in the photo are
distinctly black but the angle is too low to be sure that the roof is
black. In this photo, the hatches are just barely visible and they
look to be black. But on the Athearn model, the hatches and roofwalk
laterals grab irons are gray instead of black like the rest of the
roof. Is this a parts sprue mis-match and these need to be touched up
with some black paint?

Craig Wilson

Craig,
Have you seen my article in RP CYC Vol. 17 about the railroad-owned
Airslide cars built from 1954-1959? In that article are some good views
of roofs, which show variances of how the roofs were painted. Based on
interpretation of photos, roofs were typically coated with black car
cement (the carlines often appear a dark color) with gray granules
sprinkled into the coating to provide a non-slip surface. The overall
appearance for many cars was an uneven mixture of gray and black.

GATC's general practice was to paint the rims of the roof hatches
black, and the hatch covers were often unpainted aluminum.

It's my understanding that the original GATC freight car technical data
(all but tank cars) built at East Chicago, Indiana, still exists but
has not been made available to historians wishing to use the data in
publications or for use in producing accurate scale models. If anyone
knows how to gain access to this information (presumably at the current
GATX railroad car leasing company), I would be very glad to hear from
you. My intent is to follow up the Vol. 17 article with articles on the
GACX 42000-series cars leased to railroads and private companies.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

I ordered way too many B&O flats. Until gone, I am offering them at My COST of $18 each. contact me off-list at <midcentury@...> for details. Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

About the new Athearn airslide covered hopper: I was looking at the "plain" GACX cars and note that both the roof and bays are black. I have what looks to be a builders photo of GACX 42627 and the lettering is a dead-on match to this car other than the Ann Arbor roadname and pennant herald for this leased car. The bays in the photo are distinctly black but the angle is too low to be sure that the roof is black. In this photo, the hatches are just barely visible and they look to be black. But on the Athearn model, the hatches and roofwalk laterals grab irons are gray instead of black like the rest of the roof. Is this a parts sprue mis-match and these need to be touched up with some black paint?

Craig Wilson

Rob Kirkham:

I take your point Bruce, but doesn't using thicker material in the first
place just compound that problem where the overlaps occur?

I'm applying the first wrappers to a nice smooth cylinder. If they can be
glued with solvent, there shouldn't be a texture. The next course over top
(the bottom horizontal course) can be .005 (and you might talk me in to
.010"). I think I can get away with it - or at least would like to try.
Assuming a suitable material can be found.

Self-adhesive label stock. You can cut it, laminate it in multiple layers, even print your rivet or parts layout pattern on it and use that as a guide for adding 3D parts. I'm working up some projects for my Cocoa Beach presentation and was going to sit on this until then, but it's looking so promising it won't hurt to have more eyes looking at it. I'm using Staples' version of an Avery full sheet (8.5 x 11) transparent, printable label, 0.004" thick. (I think opaque labels are a bit thicker.) The transparency lets you align multiple printed layers easily. Once you've got all your layers laminated to a substrate, seal the surface with clear gloss to make it waterproof and you're ready to add Archer rivets. My use is for patterns so long-term durability isn't an issue, but the sealed surfaces won't scuff any more readily than any painted surface.

I was inspired by Ted's recent RMC tank car article. "Inspired", in this case, means thinking "there must be a much easier way to get smooth laminated layers on a cylinder".

Tom Madden

--- In STMFC@..., "Rob Kirkham" <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

I'm working on a tank car model, and want to add tank courses that are
slimmer than the .005" styrene sheet available from Evergreen. I feel the

I would use brass shim stock which is available in thinner sections. Mylar or other polyesters seem to have a springy tendancy which is somtimes a good thing but with a wrapper they will tend to not stay put.
Allen Ferguson

--- In STMFC@..., "Rob Kirkham" <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

I'm working on a tank car model, and want to add tank courses that are
slimmer than the .005" styrene sheet available from Evergreen.

Rob- My recollection is than lesser thicknesses of polystyrene were used
for making transparencies in copy machines (overheads) and cover pages loose leaf pages. THe film will turn white if you try to bend it in half.

You can see who makes thin gauge polystyrene in the "Modern Plastics Encyclopedia". Be aware that some film contains modifiers to make it more flexible which may effect the way the film responds to solvents.

--- In STMFC@..., "Rob Kirkham" <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

I take your point Bruce, but doesn't using thicker material in the first
place just compound that problem where the overlaps occur?

I'm applying the first wrappers to a nice smooth cylinder. If they can be
glued with solvent, there shouldn't be a texture. The next course over top
(the bottom horizontal course) can be .005 (and you might talk me in to
.010"). I think I can get away with it - or at least would like to try.
Assuming a suitable material can be found.

Rob Kirkham

Rob,

Polyester sheet is known by the trade name Mylar, among others. It is extremely resistant to most solvents, and is used as the outer surface of scratch resistant safety glazing such as Mar-gard and Tuffak. You might find that you even have trouble bonding to polyester with CA.

You might be better off looking at brass shim stock, which should be available from any industrial supply house. Brass shim is available in .001, .0015, .002, .003, .004, and various greater thicknesses, and can be cemented with either Barge Cement or CA. Shim stock is normally a softer temper than the half hard brass we are used to seeing, so is easier to make conform to curves with little spring-back.

I need to question the need for such thin material when modeling tankcars, however. Tankcar tanks use some of the thickest plate used in freightcar construction. A quick look in the 1922 CBC is turning up a lot of 3/8" and 1/2" plate call-outs. .005" is .435" in HO scale, 7/16", exactly half way between those dimensions. .004" material scales thinner than 3/8" plate.

I've found in designing tooling for HO scale products that .003" is about as thin a step as I want to go to represent the thinner plate used on boxcars; I have occasionally used .002" steps where two different surfaces adjoin a third to keep the difference from lowest to highest from looking too gross, but the .002" step does not look very satisfying, even though it does scale out to 3/16".

Dennis

On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:31 AM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

I take your point Bruce, but doesn't using thicker material in the first
place just compound that problem where the overlaps occur?

Hmmm... I see your point. Of course, you want all the courses to appear to be the same thickness, so I think you are forced to use something that will resist the problem. You might also fill and sand the areas where one course will overlap another to make a smooth, rather than stepped, transition.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

I take your point Bruce, but doesn't using thicker material in the first place just compound that problem where the overlaps occur?

I'm applying the first wrappers to a nice smooth cylinder. If they can be glued with solvent, there shouldn't be a texture. The next course over top (the bottom horizontal course) can be .005 (and you might talk me in to .010"). I think I can get away with it - or at least would like to try. Assuming a suitable material can be found.

Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 5:56 AM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Polyester shim material

Rob,

I don't think you're going to be happy with the results with very
thin wrappers, whatever you use. The problem with things such as
bare metal foil is that it shows the contours of what is beneath
it... tank car courses do not. Even 0.005" styrene needs to be
handled carefully so as not to show a bump where the adjacent course
is beneath it. FWIW, bare metal foil takes and holds paint nicely.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Rob,

I don't think you're going to be happy with the results with very thin wrappers, whatever you use. The problem with things such as bare metal foil is that it shows the contours of what is beneath it... tank car courses do not. Even 0.005" styrene needs to be handled carefully so as not to show a bump where the adjacent course is beneath it. FWIW, bare metal foil takes and holds paint nicely.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Clark: Briefly, you split the roof down the middle and cut out the midsection and rejoin the rest--the splice is hidden by the running board. You trim the ends of the crossbears, crossties and bolsters to narrow the frame and floor.

Ed Ursem published a clear, nicely illustrated walk-through article on the conversion in NPRHA's magazine Mainstreeter, Vol. 25 No.1, like the ends it's available at the Company Store link at nprha.org.

Chris Frissell


Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

Tim's formula looks really good. Or if you prefer an acrylic paint, try Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red 3:1 with Modelflex Rust, then mix in a couple drops of white until you can just see it start to lighten. This gets you a color that's close the fresh NP mineral red. For a well-aged stock car, add maybe 20 percent maroon tuscan oxide red and then a drop or two more white. Airbrush unthinned at 12-15 ppi to keep it satin smooth.

BTW, builders photos first supplied to me by Matt Herson show that the interior of these cars was unpainted wood. There were small interior stencils over the doors with the car number and some other information. Now there's some rarely trodden ground in freight car modeling.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

The free stuff is gone. Maybe more later as I clean out neglected black holes. - Al Westerfield