Hi Brian, I recently received eight pairs from Central Hobby Supply in
Syracuse. Walt

I'm a little late on this, but the quoted language seems to imply that Cuban cars came to the US, at least as far as the Port of Palm Beach. Hmmm.

With reference to the photo for WIF 106, any suggestions on modeling the door?

WPM 2009 - Western Prototype Modelers Meet

THIS SATURDAY

New Date and Location
San Bernardino ATSF Depot
Saturday September 19, 2009

The west coast's largest gathering for railroad prototype modelers, now in it's 20th year!

9:00 AM to 6:00 PM
San Bernardino Santa Fe Depot
1170 West Third Street. - San Bernardino, CA 92403

Visit WPM and see hundreds of locomotive, freight and passenger car, caboose, MOW, structure, and vehicle prototype models on display while countless 1:1 scale BNSF and UP trains roll-by just feet from the depot.
Clinics and seminars will be offered throughout the day and operating N Scale "Free-mo" modular layout exhibits are planned. Visit the San Bernardino Historical and Railroad Museum located in the west-end of the depot.
Tons of raffle prizes donated by generous hobby retailers, publishers & model manufacturers will be up for grabs.
Bring your modeling projects, finished, or "in the works". Share ideas and techniques with fellow modelers and meet new friends!

Doors Open at 9:00AM

Scheduled Presentations start at 10:00
10:00 Dick Harley - PFE Mechanical Reefer Painting and Lettering 1953-1980
11:15 Craig Walker & Paul Ellis - From Athearn: What is needed to develop a project
12:15 Mini-Raffle and Lunch Break
1:30 Mike Rose - Creating the Port of Erin and Associated Industries
2:45 Tim Frederick - An overview of modern tank car models released from 2004-2009
4:00 Steve Beales & Bob Freitas - Structure Modeling from the Prototype
5:00 Raffle Round 2

San Bernardino depot is served by both Amtrak and Metrolink. Links to schedules are posted on our web site.
Exhibitors: Manufacturers, photographers and publishers will participate in WPM (Exhibitors: pre-registration is required, contact WPM at the phone number below.)
For updated info on presentations, program, schedule and photos of past meets:
www.WesternPrototypeModelers.org or call Joe D'Elia at 760-721-3393

WPM welcomes modelers of all roads, all scales and eras!

WPM Meet admission PRICE REDUCED: $15.00, or $12.00 if you bring a model(s) to display

Plenty of free parking

Dave Hussey
WPM Committee

Clark Cooper asked:

Is the Acccurail 3-bay hopper car appropriate for this conversion?

Tim O'Connor answered:

Yes, Accurail's model is better than the Bowser (formerly Stewart)
3-bay triple offset hopper. But the resin roof was made to fit the
Stewart body so I'm not sure it would fit the Accurail car.





The photo provided shows a triple hopper built to ARA standard with
"stepped" off-sets in the end panels and the "hat" braces at the top of
the sides. From other photos I recall that the ATSF did have post WWII
AAR standard, triple hoppers. I don't have Richard's book on Santa Fe
open top cars so is there information indicating that the Santa Fe built
"roofed" hoppers from both types of triple hoppers? For some curious
reason Roundhouse (now Athearn) made a model of the ARA off-set side
triple hopper in N scale, but not HO.

Bob Witt

On 13-Sep-09, at 7:40 PM, Don Valentine wrote:

The CNR cars began arriving in 1948 and were amongst the first 70 Ton covered hoppers built until Pullman-Standard began building cars of equal capacity in the 1970s. They were initially built exclusively for grain but after the CNR began to receive 100 Ton cars in 1972 they began to be used for other loadings as you suggest and also for salt loading. An interesting note about these cars was that in addition to most having friction bearings they also had split loading gates. Sometime in the early 1980's a fellow was unloading one of them, opened things up on one side and went around to open the other only to have the car turn over on him and kill him. Within a year or two of that occurrence, and in good part because of the repercussions from it, a friend in the CNR Mechanical Dept. gave the order to scrap the few that remained at that time and all were gone by the end of 1984.

I think Don is confusing two different groups of CN covered hoppers. The 1948-built cars were a smaller two-bay 2000 cu. ft. design -- most were converted to open-top ballast hoppers in 1982, with the last unconverted example surviving until 1989. CN's first slab sides were delivered in early 1951 (CP's first car arrived in 1947, with production cars built in late 1948).

The slab side cars lasted longer, with the last examples being retired in 1995, although their numbers did begin to dip significantly in the latter half of the 1980s. I can't speak to the story cited, but can note that as of the January 1985 ORER there were 903 CN slab side cars still listed (of 1,163 built for CN), which then would have varied in age from 23 to 34 years old. By January 1990 303 cars remained (now 28 to 39 years old).

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@nakina.net
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net

Thanks Robert. I'm grateful for the heads-up. I have that MM.

Steven, I was only going to use the CV roof as the core for

hopper roof as it is moulded with the curve.



Now that Robert has pointed me to the MM article, I'll likely follow that
process.

Again, thanks to everyone for your input.

Cheers

Dave

The CV roofs look different. They are also 12+" wider than the ATSF.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@sbcglobal.net
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "David North" <davenorth@...> wrote:

I have some Central Valley radial roofs, so I think I'll look to modify
them.

Cheers

Dave North

Sydney

Australia

Dave,
As an alternative, if you have the August 1999 issue of Mainline Modeler, Bob Hundman describes how to scratchbuild the Chicago-Cleveland radial roof that was used on these covered hopper conversions.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Iowa City, IA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:

I asked a question a few weeks ago regarding the TLT CP slab side hoppers,
but didn't receive any replies. I've read the messages regarding how nice
these cars are, and I have been going through books and photos to see if
they show up here in the western NY Northwestern Pa area. Thus far I have
been unsuccessful in finding photo documentation, but all that means is they
aren't in photos.

Can anyone enlighten me on why these cars were built for the CN and CP? Were
they intended for soda ash, grain, sand or cement service? I say them in
western New York growing up in the 1980's but were they common visitors to
the US in the 1950's? They are distinctive and I am trying to rationalize
one for the layout, but I want it to have a purpose. being a Canadian car it
wouldn't have been a free runner in the US.

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Hi Brian,

The CNR cars began arriving in 1948 and were amongst the first 70 Ton covered hoppers built until Pullman-Standard began building cars of equal capacity in the 1970s. They were initially built exclusively for grain but after the CNR began to receive 100 Ton cars in 1972 they began to be used for other loadings as you suggest and also for salt loading. An interesting note about these cars was that in addition to most having friction bearings they also had split loading gates. Sometime in the early 1980's a fellow was unloading one of them, opened things up on one side and went around to open the other only to have the car turn over on him and kill him. Within a year or two of that occurrence, and in good part because of the repercussions from it, a friend in the CNR Mechanical Dept. gave the order to scrap the few that remained at that time and all were gone by the end of 1984.

With regard to CPR cars of the type, from the late 1960's until 1984 I used to see a lot of them on the CPR's Lyndonville Subdivision, the former Boston & Maine R.R. track from Newport, Vt. south to Wells River and on down the B&M. These cars always seemed to be for grain shipments, many of which also went into the large K.K. Webster feedmill at Richford, Vt as well.

Hope this info is of value to you, Don Valentine

Jon

Will you be bringing them to Naperville?

Tim O'

Brian--

All that I've read of these cars is that their primary use was for cement service. But some CPR slab-sides were assigned circa December, 1954 to hauling nepheline syenite from a mine in Eastern Ontario (Nephton, near Havelock). The company shipping this product was American Nepheline.

Keith Hansen's "Last Trains From Lindsay" states that this product was "essential to the making of glass".

So, did the CPR (and possibly CN, as well?) cars find their way into the US hauling this product?

Steve Lucas.

This won't help you with the early 50s, but I have a number of photos of both CP and CN slab sides at E. Deerfield, Mass. taken in the late 70s-early 80s. I'm afraid I don't know when they first appeared here.
Norm Larkin

Greetings Group:

Noticed some discussion on building radial course tank cars and thought this would be a good time to let everyone know about the new tank cars that are available now. 2 new versions are available. an 8K gallon 5 course radial car, and a 6K gallon 5 course radial car. New roadnames too; NATX, VENX, and AE Staley. Standard Tank Car of course. And we also have a different dome version of the 6 course radial car previously released. Not a side vent, but the more typical top of dome vent.
I will do my best to post a pic this evening of the new cars. Never before available, except in brass.

If you would like to know more, please contact me offlist @ the3dworkshop@aol.com or jscagle@msn.com DO NOT GO TO THE WEB SITE, there is no new info, yet.

jon
SC&F

Thanks to everyone for their info on the hopper car roofs.

I didn't realise they were still available.

I saw them on the list as a Gift and though some of you may non-ATSF types
may have them tucked away on a shelf.

I'm afraid at US$30 plus $39 shipping that would make the roofs about A$93 a
pair.



Steve L, as soon as you mentioned radial roofs I remembered that

I have some Central Valley radial roofs, so I think I'll look to modify
them.

Again, thanks to all

Cheers

Dave North

Sydney

Australia

I asked a question a few weeks ago regarding the TLT CP slab side hoppers,
but didn't receive any replies. I've read the messages regarding how nice
these cars are, and I have been going through books and photos to see if
they show up here in the western NY Northwestern Pa area. Thus far I have
been unsuccessful in finding photo documentation, but all that means is they
aren't in photos.

Can anyone enlighten me on why these cars were built for the CN and CP? Were
they intended for soda ash, grain, sand or cement service? I say them in
western New York growing up in the 1980's but were they common visitors to
the US in the 1950's? They are distinctive and I am trying to rationalize
one for the layout, but I want it to have a purpose. being a Canadian car it
wouldn't have been a free runner in the US.

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

I am need of a pair of TLT or Proto of Canada Simplex Bolster trucks to
complete a project. My two local dealers can't get them here in Buffalo.
They have been able to get TLT freight cars but no parts. Any help on
locating a pair would be appreciated.

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Considering the car was in California-to-California service, and had last been weighed at San Bernardino... was it really photographed in Topeka? Or did the photo just turn up in ATSF files acquired by the Kansas State H.S.?
Scott Pitzer

The cars assigned to San Bernardino were for engine sand and usually went to Oceanside, Ca. for loading.

Charlie Slater



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
From: mikefrommontana@juno.com
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 18:10:41 -0600
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hopper Car With Box Car Roof





One possibility might be that the car was assigned to petroleum coke
loading. The Northern Pacific converted a series of twin hoppers (can't
remember if it falls in our period) with roofs and hatches, and while
they were unsuited for cement service, they did seem to get assigned to
petroleum coke service in the Billings area and some grain service. I
will need to look in my stack of old NPRHA "Mainstreeter" to look up the
exact info. I think some photos of ATSF roof conversions (not radial
roof) were in Mainline Modeler in an article about the AAR triple hopper,
year ago.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Why would a grain car be marked for return empty to San Bernardino,
California? (Not exactly "the breadbasket of the U.S.A.")

The image on the link below is from the Kansas Memories collection of

the Kansas State Historical Society.

The image (taken between 1941 and 1945) is described as, "A view of an

Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe Railway hopper car at the shops in Topeka,
Kansas. The hopper car was modified using a box car roof and had a main
function of carrying grain."
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That photo you took of UTLX 12283 really does show the panel shape well Dennis. It is very difficult to see anything like that in the more typical (more distant) shots of tank cars. Accepting that such joggles are present in many designs, at the same time it makes me wonder what other variants of joints exist - just as there were variants in the boxcar designs. I've my own close up tank car shots and will have a look at those in the next little while for similar traits.

A progress report of sorts on my model. The .005 radial wrappers went on OK (some distortion from the solvent had to be filled and sanded. The usual issue with .005 styrene!) Now for the bottom courses. I intend to do it as two pieces - one that runs the whole length of the car in .010 sheet and another overlaid for the mid tank course of .005. At this point the multiple layers are not causing too serious a visual problem at the ends, and it feels like the end stages of building this first part of the model are in sight.


Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "soolinehistory" <destorzek@mchsi.com>
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:00 AM
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Polyester shim material

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kirkham" <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Thanks for those thoughts Dennis. I wouldn't use the word "agonizing" to
describe my thought the process - I think its fun to think through options,
consider obstacles and potential challenges, and then build. That said, I
have built myself into a corner on this one already.

I had a look at the 1922 CBC Royalite tank drawing and photos - they are in
the Trains Shed Cyclopedia No.12 as well, p.268 (i.e. about 8 pages in from
the front cover). The car in the drawing has a similar situation with
overlapping courses to the car I am modelling. It is tough to see a joggle
in the drawings however. Wouldn't shop drawings help! One interpretation
issue: I think the outer layer of the tank shown in the drawing at cross
section A-A shows the tank anchor band. But if so, it is rendered in a
confusing fashion as the drawing simply ends in a taper rather than
continuing to the frame. Perhaps I am misinterpreting it.

Rob,

I agree that the sectional views in the Cyc drawing are pretty much worthless. I was basing my statements on the way the lap is drawn in the elevation. The edge of the center course is shown as two parallel lines, then a couple rivet spaces from the bottom sheet, one line angles into the other. The draftsman is obviously trying to show us that there is something going on here, but not exactly what.

I looked through my tankcar pix last night, and find the only radial course cars I have are both UTLX cars. I've uploaded a photo of UTLX 12283 at the Mid-Continent Ry Museum (more here):

http://www.midcontinent.org/collectn/stlfrt/utlx12283.html

This photo is the best I have that illustrates the area we are discussing:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/album/2015799527/pic/list

You will note that the bottom sheet is three pieces on this car, and also note that the laps are plain laps, but the corner of the sheet is formed to jog out over it's mate where they both have to lap to the upper tank course. You'll also note that the edge of the sheet tapers toward the corner, as if the sheet was sheared square, rolled, and when the lap was offset outward, there was no extra material to keep the edge in a straight line.

Note also that the edge of the bottom sheet swells outward where the course seams go behind it. I'm of the opinion that none of this would show even in the fab drawings of the individual plates; the plates were simply sheared square, punched, rolled, and fitted up as best they could, then partially riveted. The corners were then heated and beaten until they laid flat, then drawn up with the final rivets. Crude, but it got the job done.

I alluded to this fit-up problem when we were discussing boxcar lap seams, where I made the statement that the "offset" lap seams made fit-up easier. What we are looking at here is the exact same situation as the top and bottom corners of boxcar side sheets. People who model plain laps tend to lay the sheets at an angle, like shingles, but that's not how the prototype does it, On the prototype, the bottom of each sheet rivets solidly to the side sill, and when it comes to the end that laps over the next sheet, it needs to be given a little kink to lay flat. Boxcar sheets are thin enough that a couple whacks with a three pound hand sledge ought to be enough to do the trick, but these tankcar sheets are another matter entirely. Fit-up is going to require some serious persuasion.

Dennis




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Bob, I should have followed up on your e-mail earlier - can you explain what it is that Jack Spencer is trying to achieve with loose and bouncy brake rigging? I "get" how Mylar would serve that kind of purpose, but apart from using it to make very small chain (not in this lifetime for me!), I can't visualize where one might want that feature.

Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "rwitt_2000" <rwitt_2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:53 AM
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Polyester shim material

[snip]

I recall that Jack Spencer is an advocate of Mylar in modeling his
freight cars. He uses it as sheets as overlays and makes his brake
levers with it. He uses many different thicknesses. To bond it, I
recall, he uses some type of contact cement followed by cyanoacrylate.
He makes his brake rigging "loose and bouncy".

Bob Witt