Date   

Re: JN reweigh symbol on refurbished boxcars

J.A. Phillips
 

CF-

Think that might be Jamestown. Ask Rick Leach for a complete list of NP paint station codes. AU, ST, etc., etc., etc.

JP3


Re: UP Freight Conductors' Train Books

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike, I thought diesel horsepower was a function of the RPM's
of the diesel engine... Diesel hp is independent of the loco's
mph, while steam hp does indeed increase with mph. I think you
may be confusing horsepower with tractive effort. The fact that
a 4-6-6-4 could produce almost 6,000 hp or a 4-8-8-4 7,000 hp
should surprise no one. But as you note, that horsepower was
only available in a limited speed range, while diesels provided
constant hp from 10 to 60 mph.

And sometimes diesel engines were shipped on flat cars... :-)

Tim O'Connor

Is this finding related to the random data you posted, or are you
referring to some other documentation?
Union Pacific Motive Power in Transition 1936-1960, by Lloyd Stagner, pg 45.
Actually, I wrote from memory. The exact quote is: "Pull/speed graphs
indicated that at speeds above 25 mph, the 4000 class [ Big Boy's ] and 4
GP-9's were equal, that the 3900's exceeded 3 GP-9's at all speeds above 22
mph and that both were outperforming turbines at speeds above 17 mph."
Obviously at speeds above 25 mph, Big Boys were superior to a 3 unit F unit
and I slighted the 3900 by giving it equal rating with a 3 unit diesel. Mind
you, we are talking about speeds above about 25 mph. At lower speeds, where
the max horsepower of a diesel was available, the diesel ruled. What this is
saying...as has been proven out many times empirically, high horsepower
steam locomotives generally were designed to produce their max HP at
relatively higher speeds. Thus, the two UP engines referred to achieved max
HP in the 40-50 mph range whereas the diesel achieved its at 20 mph. See the
plots on pg 83 of N&W Giant of Steam. Incidentally, the plots were of a 6000
HP 4 unit diesel which was later sold to...uh...UP.

Mike Brock


Re: UP Freight Conductors' Train Books

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tony Thompson writes:

Ah, if only Sherman Hill could have been consistently operated
above 25 mph -- but I assume by "performance" you mean pulling power,
or over-the-road speed.
Well...actually it was. Many people overlook the grade layout of the Hill. Westbound, the ruling grade was 1.55% for about 24 miles. Then there was a 0.82% grade for about 5 miles then downhill to Laramie. After the 24 miles...and possibly removing a helper, it was clear sailing for 26 miles. Your point is well taken that perhaps loads should have been kept low enough to allow faster running on the 1.55%. However, several noted writers have lamented that UP ran Big Boys with so much tonnage up the 30 or so mile long 1.14% Whasatch grade in Utah that they could not utilize their full capability. They overlook the fact that, once reaching Wasatch [ don't bother checking on the spelling, I spell it differently every time on purpose ] at the top of the grade, they then raced along another 130 or so miles to Green River...encountering no more than a 0.82% grade enroute. It is unfortunate that UP saw no reason to test the engines in that area in which they could truly exert their max HP capabilities.

Problem is, the diesel was available about a
third more hours per month and used 40% of the fuel (though more
expensive fuel). Very few railroads which did careful tests thought
the comparison was anywhere close in overall operating and maintenance
behavior.
Repair costs in 1954 were $1.23/mile for Big Boys, $0.91/mile for 3900's and $0.40 for 4 new GP-9's. In 1952 fuel costs were $0.31/ton mile for coal and $0.62.7/ton mile for oil.

"But this ain't a "steam age" list for locomotives."

No problem. The Head Judge [ uh...me ] ruled long ago that if we could write for days about what our frt cars carried [ read that, bananas ], we could write as well about what pulled the little dears.

Mike Brock


Re: UP Freight Conductors' Train Books

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

Is this finding related to the random data you posted, or are you
referring to some other documentation?
Union Pacific Motive Power in Transition 1936-1960, by Lloyd Stagner, pg 45. Actually, I wrote from memory. The exact quote is: "Pull/speed graphs indicated that at speeds above 25 mph, the 4000 class [ Big Boy's ] and 4 GP-9's were equal, that the 3900's exceeded 3 GP-9's at all speeds above 22 mph and that both were outperforming turbines at speeds above 17 mph." Obviously at speeds above 25 mph, Big Boys were superior to a 3 unit F unit and I slighted the 3900 by giving it equal rating with a 3 unit diesel. Mind you, we are talking about speeds above about 25 mph. At lower speeds, where the max horsepower of a diesel was available, the diesel ruled. What this is saying...as has been proven out many times empirically, high horsepower steam locomotives generally were designed to produce their max HP at relatively higher speeds. Thus, the two UP engines referred to achieved max HP in the 40-50 mph range whereas the diesel achieved its at 20 mph. See the plots on pg 83 of N&W Giant of Steam. Incidentally, the plots were of a 6000 HP 4 unit diesel which was later sold to...uh...UP.

Mike Brock


Re: gondolas w/ cement cannisters

Tim O'Connor
 

Yes I know. In fact Bob printed some beautiful HO decals for the
cement containers. That is why I was looking for photos/drawings
showing the bracing arrangement. I now have both, thanks very
much everyone!

Tim O'Connor

At 9/18/2009 08:10 PM Friday, you wrote:
Tim,

Late to the game here, but Bob Anson has built some in 2-rail O-scale. He lives up in Jax. Maybe someone on this list knows how to contact him. I can't find his email address.

Davo in Orlando


Conductors Train Book, Ferguson, May-June, 1938

Wendye Ware
 

Hi Folks

This is a summary report of a Union Pacific Freight Conductors' Train Book by a conductor named Ferguson. It covers the dates from May 13, 1938, to June 21, 1938. During these 40 days, Conductor Ferguson rode 41 trains between Laramie and Rawlins, Wyoming, on the UP mainline. Twenty trains were eastbound, and 21 were headed west.

Ferguson wrote complete train reports for 27 of the 41 trains, listing the railroad initial and number, contents, and destination for every car. He gave partial reports for an additional six trains, in which he only listed data for some of the cars. And for an additional eight trains, he gave no information on individual cars. However, for all trains he listed the number of loads and empties, the engine and caboose numbers, and the crew.

The 41 trains varied in length from 30 cars to 112 cars. The shortest eastbound train was 59 cars, with 48 loads and 11 empties; the longest was 112 cars, with 9 loads and 103 empties. The shortest westbound train had 30 cars, 29 loads and 1 empty; the longest was 110 cars, all empty. All but two of the trains were pulled by 3900 series 4-6-6-4s; the two exceptions were led by 4-12-2 9000s. Each trip took about three to five hours.

These trains pulled a total of 2,826 cars, 1901 with loads, 925 empties. The average train consisted of 69 cars with 46 loads and 23 empties.

The twenty east bound trains, Rawlins to Laramie, had an aggregate of 1,495 cars, 1,148 loads and 347 empties – the average train had 75 cars, 57 with loads, 17 empty.

The 21 west bound trains had 1,331 cars, with 753 loads and 578 empty; average train length was 63 cars, with 36 loads and 27 empties.

Ferguson listed the railroad initial and number, contents, and destination for a total of 1,938 cars, primarily for the eastbound trains. The railroad, and numbers of eastbound, westbound, and total cars for those lines with five or more total cars are as follows:

Railroad, EB, WB, Total
UP, 466, 156, 622
PFE, 408, 208, 616
SP, 79, 21, 100
SFRD, 44, 17, 61
CB&Q, 40, 8, 48
UTLX, 8, 28, 36
PRR, 21, 5, 26
WP, 20, 5, 25
CNW, 20, 2, 22
UCR, 21, 1, 22
MILW, 15, 5, 20
NYC, 13, 3, 16
PM, 14, 2, 16
MDT, 14, 1, 15
RI, 13, 2, 15
MP, 5, 8, 13
IC, 10, 2, 12
REx, 0, 11, 11 (Railway Express, I assume)
ATSF, 8, 1, 9
B&O, 8, 1, 9
GATX, 8, 1, 9
NADX, 7, 2, 9
ART, 2, 6, 8
GN, 3, 5, 8
MC, 7, 1, 8
NP, 3, 5, 8
SLSF, 5, 2, 7
SOO, 6, 1, 7
SOUTHERN, 6, 1, 7
TNO, 6, 1, 7
SLRX, 2, 4, 6
CGW, 5, 0, 5
SLU, 4, 1, 5
URT, 5, 0, 5

. . . (lines with fewer than five total cars)

All RRs, 1385, 553, 1938

The above list is subject to many potential errors. In particular, I may have misinterpreted the railroad initial – while Ferguson's numbers are generally easy to read, his letters are not. Also, in some cases he used inconsistent initials. For example, I believe that his use of "Pa", "Penn", and "PRR" all refer to the Pennsy, but perhaps not. He often referred to what I assume is the MP by "MoP", and the WP as "WesP".

As I get time, I'll provide information on the contents and types of the cars.

This Conductors' Train Book by Ferguson is only one of 128 that I found in the attic of the Laramie Depot. At an average transcription and analysis rate of one book per month, we should have a complete report done in twelve or thirteen years <grin>.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: gondolas w/ cement cannisters

David Wiggs
 

Tim,

Late to the game here, but Bob Anson has built some in 2-rail O-scale. He lives up in Jax. Maybe someone on this list knows how to contact him. I can't find his email address.

Davo in Orlando

-----Original Message-----

1a. gondolas w/ cement cannisters
Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" timboconnor@... cf5250
Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:17 pm ((PDT))


Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.

Tim O'Connor


Howard Ameling

leakinmywaders
 

Does anyone have contact information for Howard Ameling? There's a photo of his I'd like to seek permission to publish in the NPRHA journal, Mainstreeter, if possible. Reply on or off-list.

Thank you.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT


Re: UP Freight Conductors' Train Books

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
The winner? Big Boy 4006. While conclusions from these data are extremely unreliable because we have no information regarding track conditions [ read that...other trains that might be in the way ], it IS noteworthy that UP found Big Boys superior to a 3 unit diesel at speeds above 25 mph and late Challengers to be equal to a 3 unit diesel at speeds above 25 mph.
Ah, if only Sherman Hill could have been consistently operated above 25 mph -- but I assume by "performance" you mean pulling power, or over-the-road speed. Problem is, the diesel was available about a third more hours per month and used 40% of the fuel (though more expensive fuel). Very few railroads which did careful tests thought the comparison was anywhere close in overall operating and maintenance behavior. But this ain't a "steam age" list for locomotives.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: JN reweigh symbol on refurbished boxcars

leakinmywaders
 

Thanks, Mark, that sounds right. I had the source showing JN for the IC Johnston Yard too but that in this case that didn't make much sense.

Chris Frissell

--- In STMFC@..., "mark_heiden" <mark_heiden@...> wrote:

Hi Chris,

In this case, JN is the symbol for the DT&I shops in Jackson, Ohio, where the work was done.

Mark Heiden


--- In STMFC@..., "Christopher" <leakinmywaders@> wrote:

I'm going to push the envelope on the time frame of the list by just a hair, and am begging the moderator's tolerance as this does concern the disposition of a group of venerable steam era freight cars. The NP's round roof boxcars, ex-DT&I, show reweigh station symbols "JN" at delivery in 1961. Can anyone identify the likely repairer/rebuilder from that symbol?

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT


Re: UP Freight Conductors' Train Books

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike Brock wrote

... While conclusions from these data are extremely unreliable ....
it IS noteworthy that UP found Big Boys superior to a 3 unit diesel
at speeds above 25 mph and late Challengers to be equal to a 3 unit
diesel at speeds above 25 mph.
Mike

Is this finding related to the random data you posted, or are you
referring to some other documentation?

Tim O'Connor


Re: Rail Graphics decals

Al and Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Tony - Why not give Ron a call. His number is 847-742-5404. - Al

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Rail Graphics decals


I've sent a couple of e-mails to Rail Graphics decals, to
inquire about artwork preparation, and have not had a reply for some
weeks. I've been sending to: info@.... Does anyone
know if they have a new address, or perchance are experiencing some
problems?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: gondolas w/ cement cannisters

Charles Hladik
 

Tim,
I thought that Rich Yoder did some of these.
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 9/18/2009 8:11:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bigwiggs@... writes:




Tim,

Late to the game here, but Bob Anson has built some in 2-rail O-scale. He
lives up in Jax. Maybe someone on this list knows how to contact him. I
can't find his email address.

Davo in Orlando

-----Original Message-----

1a. gondolas w/ cement cannisters
Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" _timboconnor@timboconnor_
(mailto:timboconnor@...) cf5250
Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:17 pm ((PDT))

Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Rail Graphics decals

Tim O'Connor
 

I don't know -- they recently printed hundreds of decal sheets
for my train club. We also got a bunch printed by Kadee -- very
poor quality IMO.

Tim

At 9/18/2009 03:11 PM Friday, you wrote:
I've sent a couple of e-mails to Rail Graphics decals, to
inquire about artwork preparation, and have not had a reply for some
weeks. I've been sending to: info@.... Does anyone
know if they have a new address, or perchance are experiencing some
problems?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: JN reweigh symbol on refurbished boxcars

Mark Heiden
 

Hi Chris,

In this case, JN is the symbol for the DT&I shops in Jackson, Ohio, where the work was done.

Mark Heiden

--- In STMFC@..., "Christopher" <leakinmywaders@...> wrote:

I'm going to push the envelope on the time frame of the list by just a hair, and am begging the moderator's tolerance as this does concern the disposition of a group of venerable steam era freight cars. The NP's round roof boxcars, ex-DT&I, show reweigh station symbols "JN" at delivery in 1961. Can anyone identify the likely repairer/rebuilder from that symbol?

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT


Re: UP Freight Conductors' Train Books

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Regarding the UP frt conductor books, Larry sent me copies of two trains. Coincidentally, the trains ran on May 13 and May 14 which is interesting to me since my layout simulates May 14 although, of course, any date in the period May/June works. Anyhow, the eastbound train consists primarily of PFE cars carrying lettuce and peas. Following UP practice as noted in my 1949 books, UP did little car blocking on EBs, the rear of the train containing box cars containing lbr and bottles and one GATX tank car...#970...containing wine interspersed within the PFE cars. I assume the train would be iced at Laramie although I don't know the tempature in Laramie which could be anything within 40� and 75� at the 1135AM arrival time.

One thing that might be interesting is to compare train operation and tonnage between 1938 and 1949. The two 1938 trains were pulled by 3919 and 3926, early 4-6-6-4's, the EB with 73 cars, 3335 tons, in route from Rawlins [ MP 683 ] 6:10AM to Laramie [ MP 566 ] 1010AM, 117 miles, 29.25 mph avg [ 97548 ton miles ] . The WB contained primarily PFE MTs, 74 cars, 1950 tons, in route from 540PM Laramie until 935PM to Rawlins...29.87 MPH [ 58246 ton miles ].

Randomly selected train on April 3, 1949, pulled by late 4-6-6-4 3986, 72 cars, 3585 tons, left Rawlins at 420PM, arrived Laramie at 740PM. 35MPH [ 125475 ton miles ]. And April 9, 1949, WB Big Boy 4018, 93 cars, 3300 tons [ 78 MTs ], left Laramie at 130P, arrived Rawlins 530P...4 hrs, 29.25 mph [ 96525 ton miles ]. Hmmm. On April 21, 1949, diesels 1454, 1450, and 1419 left Laramie at 315P, arrived Rawlins at 720P with 81 cars, 3884 tons. 28.65 mph [ 111288 ton miles/hr ]. April 15, Big Boy 4006 left Laramie at 605P, arrived Rawlins 905P...85 cars, 4152 tons. 39 mph [ 161928 ton miles/hr ].

The winner? Big Boy 4006. While conclusions from these data are extremely unreliable because we have no information regarding track conditions [ read that...other trains that might be in the way ], it IS noteworthy that UP found Big Boys superior to a 3 unit diesel at speeds above 25 mph and late Challengers to be equal to a 3 unit diesel at speeds above 25 mph.

Mike Brock


Re: JN reweigh symbol on refurbished boxcars

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

According to the list here:

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/protoinfomain.html

JN was Johnston Yard on the IC.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher

I'm going to push the envelope on the time frame of the list by just a hair, and am begging the moderator's tolerance as this does concern the disposition of a group of venerable steam era freight cars. The NP's round roof boxcars, ex-DT&I, show reweigh station symbols "JN" at delivery in 1961. Can anyone identify the likely repairer/rebuilder from that symbol?


Rail Graphics decals

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

I've sent a couple of e-mails to Rail Graphics decals, to inquire about artwork preparation, and have not had a reply for some weeks. I've been sending to: info@.... Does anyone know if they have a new address, or perchance are experiencing some problems?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


W&LE Box car question

Dave Lawler
 

Good day all,
Thank you for the replys/info. regarding the "recessed side". Additional information received as well as diagrams and more photos prove that the "recess" is actually a shadow from the full height door stop.
Best regards,
Dave Lawler


Re: UP Freight Conductors' Train Books

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Larry Ostresh wrote:
While rummaging through the attic of the Laramie Depot, I came across a box of Union Pacific Freight Conductors' Train Books. There are 128 of them, mostly from June, 1937, to August, 1938.
Your first sentence, Larry, qualifies as one of the great dramatic sentences ever posted on this list . . . <g> and maybe we will finally have more than snapshot data on freight car movements. More power to you, Larry.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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