A good errata for Jim's web site would include the model door size,
the prototype door size, and a link to a photo of the prototype. :-)
(And of course, no editorial acronyms.)

Tim O'Connor

Bruce, Tony, et al.,

It was not my intention to impugn Martin and Tricia's efforts to correctly produce freight car kits as their kits are at the top of the list for correctness. They have manufactured more kits for the large number of freight railroads that are listed in the ORER, and not only cars of original manufacture, but also the many variations or rebuilds throughout service lives the cars they replicated. I think that the total number of kits, including the variations, so far has exceeded 700 with more being added each year. This is a record in any scale that has and probably will never be matched by any commercial plastic kit builder ever!

I guess I should have worded my post more carefully as I was not referring so much to those kits having short floors, etc. (reports of which have been reported on the List), that can be repaired or easily replaced, but more so to those kits that were found to have been inadvertently packed with a part that did not match the kit description or was missing a part.

My response was a result of reading those and of Robert D. Heninger's post where he noted that he had the wrong sides for the kit that he purchased. He did not say in his post though, whether he bought the kit from Martin through the mail or at an event where Martin was in attendance.

Both Martin and Al Westerfield both produce large numbers of kits prior to their attendance to train shows or historical society events. In doing so, the possibility of an inappropriate or missing part in a kit is much greater than in kits that are produced when filling individual kits which are generally done on demand. Martin fills out on-demand orders with kits that had been unsold at train show events to save time in getting orders filled. This also can possibly increase the possibility that there may be a kit with an inappropriate part or has a damaged or missing part may be included in an order. Notice, I said a possibility exists, not a probability as Martin and Al maintain a high standard of quality control.

Tricia Lofton packages all the kits, including attending to the other aspects of the business that includes ordering all of the materials used in kit preparation, and mailing out the finished orders. My experience with Tricia is that she is very detail oriented and an omission or accidental substitution of a part is an accident. A letter to her or Martin will generally correct the problem.

Sunshine's volume of orders has resulted in a six month backlog and it is to Martin and Tricia credit that they have been able to cope with this volume and maintain such a high level of quality. Tricia has advised that should anyone find problems with any kit, be it with the instructions or parts, they should address them in a letter to her or Martin so they can try to take care of the problem.

In regard to parts that are short or damaged, I am very aware of the vagaries of how urethane cures. Al Westerfield once told me that parts spoilage rate could sometimes attain upwards of 20% in the production process, but these are generally weeded out during the casting process. This is why all the parts of a urethane kit are always cast at one time in gang molds. To cast a large number of sides, ends and other parts individually generally does not work well. F&C once tried to produce sides, ends, floors and roofs in group batches, but found that the parts when assembled would not line up properly due parts sometimes being of different lengths. They abandoned this method and returned to casting each kit individually. Reports of a broken or part of incorrect length have turned up on the list a number of times and a letter to Martin or Al, depending which of the two manufactured the kit, has resulted in replacement of the part.

Most people who know me know that I have almost 700 of Martin's kits and have extolled them to many people, but even the best manufacturer of urethane kits can make errors in packaging or manufacturing. I believe only J.P. Barger has more than I as he has bought just about every kit Martin and Al Westerfield has produced.

As not everyone immediately assembles a kit that they have just purchased kits tend to sit on the shelf for a long period of time before being assembled. My thought was that it would be helpful if there was a semi-permanent site, other than the STMFC List, that List members could record their findings. In this way, an individual could check the site from time to time and be alerted of a problem kit. Once alerted, he could look to see if he had the kit and be able to examine it to see if there is a problem of a missing or an inappropriate casting. Otherwise, the discovery may not be made until after the kit has gone out of production or the manufacturer has gone out of business.

Either way, my post did generate a number of postings which also resulted in ideas which could be put forward. I agree with Jim in regard to having Byron critique kits as Jim does not have a life span long enough to transcribe the result <G>!

Best regards,

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu

I agree with you, Tom. These are not the "shake the box kits" , which are starting to get few and far between. If you are buying a Sunshine, F&C, Westerfield, Pacific Mountian, Rail Yard Models, Modelers Choice, Sylvan, the list  goes on and on, I would consider you a craftsman.  We should be proud at these manufactures that they take the risks to develop these kits. Who knows IF they will ever sell.
   I do have one question, Would you be happy if this kit was not produced???  I have one and enjoyed it.  Thanks, Martian!!  
  I would like to thank ALL the manufactures, researcher, publishers and the professional builders that make these kits happen.  This includes you, Mr. Jim Hayes. Thanks, guys and gals,  Please keep up the good work!!!
 
Dennis Williams
Munhall, Pa.
www.resinbuilders4u.com

Chuck,

There are worst error than this. His PRR X29b has a door that is too big it
is actually about 7'_6" which renders the car useless or at least a major
PITA.

Greg Martin

Hi group-
I read this site's daily updates with great interest. It is SO beneficial
to be able to interact with the big names of model railroading and authors
and people who are just so darned smart. And just plain NICE people!
Thanks and keep it up.

After reading the flurry of comments on the Sunshine kits (I only have the
vinegar car which took about a year to get built), I think a great place
for errata (not just Sunshine kits) would be a folder on our newsgroup site,
open to the public. That might draw more people to the site.

As for the manufacturers who continue to make KITS, please keep it up. It
is increasingly more frustrating to have to buy and disassemble RTRs in
order to build it into what I wanted.

Thanks for all you do
Chris Tilley
_LTCTilley@aol.com_ (mailto:LTCTilley@aol.com)

GUYZ,

peach creek models makes several 5' wheelbase trucks if that helps.
Fred Freitas

Fred,

Specifically what are you refering too? A google search didn't come up with anything for peach creek models. I am familiar with Peach Creek Shops in Laurel Md. However they were not familiar with any 5' wheelbase trucks.

Thanks,

Ned

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "laramielarry" <larryostresh@...> wrote:

Hi Folks

I recently found 128 Union Pacific Freight Conductors' Train Books in the attic of the Laramie Depot, and earlier summarized the contents of Conductor Ferguson's Train Book, May-June, 1938.


As time permits, I'll report on the contents of the cars.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Larry,

First, thank-you for all of the analysis you have reported - very informative.

Along the lines of conductor train books, I see 39 SP conductor train books on sale on e-bay - split up into 9 lots - not cheap.

Too bad there isn't some form of association where members could share in the expense, then share in the analysis and results. These books range from '42 to '68.

Dve Evans

I agree, before I made the switch to N scale I had built numerous kits from Al Westerfield and some of the Sunshine kits as well, it is one of the things I miss most about switching scales there are no comparable cottage industries for my road in particular. You are pretty lucky in HO to have two of the best sources for freight cars in resin.

Rob.

Jim Hayes wrote:

Possible errata and confirmed errata? Tim says "in the 36 series tank car kits, the wrapper shouldn't be put around the pipe until after the framistan is glued in place" is possible errata. When Tony says "I agree" then it gets moved to Confirmed Errata.

Yeah, that's for sure, that doggone framistan is no end of trouble <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Now hold on there, Tim. Having to include Byron's notes on any kit might
cause keyboarditis in my already arthritic fingers.
And you bring up just what I was thinking - confirmation. Do I need to
create two errata areas? Possible errata and confirmed errata? Tim says "in
the 36 series tank car kits, the wrapper shouldn't be put around the pipe
until after the framistan is glued in place" is possible errata. When Tony
says "I agree" then it gets moved to Confirmed Errata. Things are starting
to get complicated already.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

Jim

A separate page, or just a hyperlink in the listing that takes
you to the errata notes for that kit. Of course any errata should
be confirmed by at least one other modeler or we'd get into the
nasty business of correcting the errata notes... :-)

I'll ask Byron to write up the errata notes for the SP B-50-12A
(USRA rebuild) underframe. I saw his model and it had a couple
dozen repairs in unpainted styrene and brass, so he might have a
comment or two... :-)

Tim

Clark:
As you have been told the Jim Little article is the difinitive word to date. My decals are made to fit a specific height ie 10'6". so check the instructions to see which car to start. Then with Jim's information you can pick which ends and roof you need or at least match the number to what you can get.
Allen Ferguson

So Tim, are you suggesting an 'Errata' page to note instruction errors or
suggestions for alternative assembly methods and such?

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I must comment that, without Sunshine's work, this site might not exist. I
think that while constructive criticism is the sort of thing that any mature
adult must expect, folks should be tolerant of the odd occasional error.

Regards,
William Bryk

I too agree that this is an occasional problem with an individual kit, not a
consistent problem worthy of tabulating, since the parts for a kit are boxed
for each order, not dozens at a time to stock a warehouse. I find that even
the problem of an underframe not quite fitting is less frequent than it used
to be and those underframes that did need adjustment were as likely to need
a little bit sanded off as to need a little shimming. I've built more than a
hundred Sunshine kits and the only mis-pack problems I've had were not quite
enough grabs or some such minor error. I've never found wrong or missing
resin parts in any of my kits.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

Tom Olsen wrote

Perhaps we should encourage Jim Hayes to add a list of the incorrectly
packaged Sunshine kits to his unofficial Sunshine Website...

That sounds like a frivilous idea, but how about notes about the
actual ERRORS in some of the kits, or in the assembly instructions
or the data sheets? Those are pretty numerous, although often minor.
And it usually requires knowledge from another source to notice in
the first place.

Tim O'

Tom Olsen wrote:

Perhaps we should encourage Jim Hayes to add a list of the incorrectly packaged Sunshine kits to his unofficial Sunshine Website. This would alert those of us to the specific kit numbers that have incorrect parts so that they could request replacements.

Tom, you make a huge assumption here: that all kits are packed the same, either correctly or incorrectly. Given Martin and Patricia's overall competence, I'd think it FAR more likely that only the occasional kit, of whatever kit number, gets packed wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Fri, October 2, 2009 5:41 pm, tmolsen@UDel.Edu wrote:

Perhaps we should encourage Jim Hayes to add a list of the incorrectly packaged
Sunshine kits to his unofficial Sunshine Website. This would alert those of us to
the specific kit numbers that have incorrect parts so that they could request
replacements.

Tom,

This is an individual box problem, not a problem with all the kits of a certain cat
number! It comes about because Martin is a cottage industry and he packs each kit
when ordered... and mistakes happen.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Perhaps we should encourage Jim Hayes to add a list of the incorrectly packaged Sunshine kits to his unofficial Sunshine Website. This would alert those of us to the specific kit numbers that have incorrect parts so that they could request replacements.

I, for one, have a large number of unbuilt Sunshine kits and to go back through each is going to be a big job. I am sure that those who have run into this problem would be willing to advise of which kit numbers need replacement parts.

How about it Jim, would you be willing to add such a listing to the website if the list membership would assist by sending the kit numbers and description of the problem?

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu

AGREED!!!!! 
Dennis Williams
Munhall, Pa.