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Re: Sunshine X 29b Kit - oversize door
Dennis Williams
I enjoy my kit any way!!
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Dennis
--- On Fri, 10/9/09, tmolsen@UDel.Edu <tmolsen@UDel.Edu> wrote:
From: tmolsen@UDel.Edu <tmolsen@UDel.Edu> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Sunshine X 29b Kit - oversize door To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, October 9, 2009, 2:07 AM Tony, I received an email from Al Buchan, the president of the PRRT&HS wanting to know what was the story regarding the door size of the Sunshine X29b that had just come out. He had received an email from a Society member stating that the member thought the door was too wide. This car had been announced many years before and was a hot item with the PRR modeling crowd. Since I had previously (for ten years) been the HO modeling editor for The Keystone, he asked me to check it out. This is how it went down. The real Youngstown door as used on the X29b is 7'4-5/8" wide with the center framed panel portion 7' wide. The door opening on the car is 7'. On the left or lock side, the door extension measures 2'-5/16" outside of the center framed 7' panel. This extension slides behind the front stop to form the weather seal on that side. The right side of the door, the door extension measuring the same has a rear weather seal which engages the post strip on the car body. The model door is 8' overall including the door extensions. This means that the door is 5-3/8" too wide. Frank Hodina did the masters for this kit. He apparently used the master he made for the EJ&E Mini-Kit door when he made the master for the X29b car side. He apparently took a casting from the original 8' master and glued it in place on the X29b carbody master butting it up against the front stop, failing to allow for the fact that the door extension would normally be hidden from view. So the entire door including the door extensions are in view. This is what called attention to the fact that the door is too wide. To determine how the door was too wide, I measured doors on the following models: The original Uni-Body X29b kit which utilized the C&BT car body and doors. A Branchline #BRA-1600 series kit with 7' doors. the EJ&E Mini-Kit with the separate 8' Doors. The C&BT car doors are undersize (6'10" wide including the door extensions). The Branchline 7' doors are the correct size as matched to the prototype. The EJ&E 8' Doors are also correct in size to the prototype. References used to match the doors were the 1946 and 1949/1951 Car Builders Cyclopedias. I have experimented with replacing the front door stop by substituting a piece of evergreen strip that is thinner than that of the cast door stop (salvaging the camel lock fixture on the door stop for use after making modifications) . I was not happy with this and still have to fiddle some more to see if I can reduce the door extension which should be partially hidden. Unfortunately, you would still have the opposite side to reduce and that is a problem as it is exposed on the prototype door. That pretty much sums up the problems with the X29b kit from Sunshine Models. I presented my findings to the PRRT&HS modeling committee and Martin Lofton. Martin did not think that the door was not oversize enough to cause a problem and that he was not going to revise the kit as it would take a new set of masters to do so. I did not and have not talked with Frank in regard to the door problem. In any event, it would not have mattered as it was already too late to do so. To avoid future errors, Martin advised me that he would be willing to consult with the committee on other models in the future. My recommendation to the committee was not to review the kit in the Keystone Modeler and pillory Martin as it would be counter-productive as the car was already out and had been sold to a large number of modelers by then. We did not want to discourage Martin from doing other PRR kits. The modeling committee concurred and that was it. In summarizing events that took place almost a year ago, Greg may have overstated the door dimensions a little bit, but basically he was correct as I addressed much of this to him and to Bruce Smith at the time. End of story! For those who have the Unibody kits, substitute the Branchline carbody from Kit #BRA-1600 with the 7' door in place of the C&BT body and follow the kit instructions from there! Regards, Tom Olsen 7 Boundary Road, West Branch Newark. Delaware, 19711-7479 (302) 738-4292 (H) (302) 740-2897 (Cell) tmolsen@udel. edu [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: The most common Offset Twin
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
I think everyone in HO is envious and wishes Rich did cars in that scale,
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too. His C&O cars are beautiful, as are all his PRR models. Elden Gatwood
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mforsyth127 Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:49 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [STMFC] Re: The most common Offset Twin <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote: I thought it was the AAR alternate standard car, which has never beenIndeed they have been done, and in multiples...just NOT in a "popular" scale. Rich Yoder of Rich Yoder models http://www.richyodermodels.com/ <http://www.richyodermodels.com/> has done several variations of the AAR Alt. Std., especially the many C&O variants... Matt Forsyth Modeling the D&H Penn Division/ Erie Jefferson Divison in "O" Scale, Fall, 1951
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Re: The most common Offset Twin
Armand Premo
Another Offset hopper really doesn't bother me.The question I would raise is this really the most common hopper type yet to be produced? Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Hawkins To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] The most common Offset Twin On Oct 8, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote: > L&N, C&O and many others > had many thousands of that AAR alt std car, too, didn't they? Elden, C&O had some 27,400 alternate standard cars with many variations of end arrangements. L&N had zero alternate standard cars. Regards, Ed Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2414 - Release Date: 10/04/09 18:42:00
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Re: Sunshine X 29b Kit - oversize door
tmolsen@...
Tony,
I received an email from Al Buchan, the president of the PRRT&HS wanting to know what was the story regarding the door size of the Sunshine X29b that had just come out. He had received an email from a Society member stating that the member thought the door was too wide. This car had been announced many years before and was a hot item with the PRR modeling crowd. Since I had previously (for ten years) been the HO modeling editor for The Keystone, he asked me to check it out. This is how it went down. The real Youngstown door as used on the X29b is 7'4-5/8" wide with the center framed panel portion 7' wide. The door opening on the car is 7'. On the left or lock side, the door extension measures 2'-5/16" outside of the center framed 7' panel. This extension slides behind the front stop to form the weather seal on that side. The right side of the door, the door extension measuring the same has a rear weather seal which engages the post strip on the car body. The model door is 8' overall including the door extensions. This means that the door is 5-3/8" too wide. Frank Hodina did the masters for this kit. He apparently used the master he made for the EJ&E Mini-Kit door when he made the master for the X29b car side. He apparently took a casting from the original 8' master and glued it in place on the X29b carbody master butting it up against the front stop, failing to allow for the fact that the door extension would normally be hidden from view. So the entire door including the door extensions are in view. This is what called attention to the fact that the door is too wide. To determine how the door was too wide, I measured doors on the following models: The original Uni-Body X29b kit which utilized the C&BT car body and doors. A Branchline #BRA-1600 series kit with 7' doors. the EJ&E Mini-Kit with the separate 8' Doors. The C&BT car doors are undersize (6'10" wide including the door extensions). The Branchline 7' doors are the correct size as matched to the prototype. The EJ&E 8' Doors are also correct in size to the prototype. References used to match the doors were the 1946 and 1949/1951 Car Builders Cyclopedias. I have experimented with replacing the front door stop by substituting a piece of evergreen strip that is thinner than that of the cast door stop (salvaging the camel lock fixture on the door stop for use after making modifications). I was not happy with this and still have to fiddle some more to see if I can reduce the door extension which should be partially hidden. Unfortunately, you would still have the opposite side to reduce and that is a problem as it is exposed on the prototype door. That pretty much sums up the problems with the X29b kit from Sunshine Models. I presented my findings to the PRRT&HS modeling committee and Martin Lofton. Martin did not think that the door was not oversize enough to cause a problem and that he was not going to revise the kit as it would take a new set of masters to do so. I did not and have not talked with Frank in regard to the door problem. In any event, it would not have mattered as it was already too late to do so. To avoid future errors, Martin advised me that he would be willing to consult with the committee on other models in the future. My recommendation to the committee was not to review the kit in the Keystone Modeler and pillory Martin as it would be counter-productive as the car was already out and had been sold to a large number of modelers by then. We did not want to discourage Martin from doing other PRR kits. The modeling committee concurred and that was it. In summarizing events that took place almost a year ago, Greg may have overstated the door dimensions a little bit, but basically he was correct as I addressed much of this to him and to Bruce Smith at the time. End of story! For those who have the Unibody kits, substitute the Branchline carbody from Kit #BRA-1600 with the 7' door in place of the C&BT body and follow the kit instructions from there! Regards, Tom Olsen 7 Boundary Road, West Branch Newark. Delaware, 19711-7479 (302) 738-4292 (H) (302) 740-2897 (Cell) tmolsen@udel.edu
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Re: Kadee NYC Hoppers Announced
David Sieber
Gentlemen,
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Make it vote #4 for the AAR alternate standard hopper - but please (1) in NP, GN, etc., and (2) with wire grabs and other state-of-the-art details. No one has done this very common coal hopper (although Sunshine has resin conversion minikits) which is essential for modelers of the Pacific Northwest, the C&O, et al. Not that we don't appreciate more, more-accurately detailed models of similar versions of the AAR standard hopper, but . . . Dave Sieber Reno NV
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:
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Re: The most common Offset Twin
mforsyth127
<elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
I thought it was the AAR alternate standardIndeed they have been done, and in multiples...just NOT in a "popular" scale. Rich Yoder of Rich Yoder models http://www.richyodermodels.com/ has done several variations of the AAR Alt. Std., especially the many C&O variants... Matt Forsyth Modeling the D&H Penn Division/ Erie Jefferson Divison in "O" Scale, Fall, 1951
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Re: Kadee NYC Hoppers Announced
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Schuyler Larrabee says about the alternative standard:
Vote No. 2. Vote No. 3. I have a video showing two such C&O cars in a train on the UP in the Whasatch Mtns in Utah. To get there from the east you have to go up that Hill...Lee? Johnston? Beauregard? Custer? Davis? JEB Stuart? Anyhow... I actually just get tired of seeing those AAR Standard C&O hoppers on layouts. Yuk. Mike Brock
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Re: Kadee NYC Hoppers Announced
Schuyler Larrabee
Vote No. 2.
SGL Not sure what Bill wants, but I want the alternate standard side car for<http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.1.0.447) Database version: 6.13440 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
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Re: Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Vol. 19
Schuyler Larrabee
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-----Original Message----- Many of you must have some house or business in the neighborhood whose gutters and downspouts are not painted. Those are galvanized, and turn dark, even, flat gray. SGL E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.1.0.447) Database version: 6.13440 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
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Re: ACC Applicators
Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
I agree with Bill. I use the cheap stuff found at the local hardware store. I don't use ACC in large quantities and found the
Hobby Shop bottles often dried up after long periods of dis-use, not just the tube, the entire bottle. It was a waste of money, and as I don't live near a Hobby Shop, a real frustration. Now when a cheap tube dries up I just toss it, go to the fridge and get a fresh one. And Yes I keep my ACC in the fridge, which seems to make it last longer. I have a sheet of plate glass on the workbench, I squeeze out a little amount of ACC on the glass and use a straight pin stuck in the end of a bamboo skewer as an applicator. Once the puddle dries I scrape it off the glass with a used single edge razor blade, and squeeze out another drop. I have much better control with this applicator, less waste, and I don't glue my fingers together anymore. Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
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Re: The most common Offset Twin
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
The "most common" version of the offset side twin is not the "AAR standard"Bill is talking about the side sill variations of the AAR Standard car, specifically the straight side sills that make an offset toward the bottom of the car behind the side sheets vs. the version that has the sill straight for the length of the side sheets, and then angles up to the end sills. To use the AAR 70 ton triple to illustrate, the Accurail car has the later, while the Steward / Bowser car has the former. I'm not in agreement with Bill, however, on the relative numbers of cars. There may have been more cars built total with the angled ends of the side sills,but it appears that there were more different roadnames had the straight sills at the end of the car. Dennis
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Re: The most common Offset Twin
Ed Hawkins
On Oct 8, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:
L&N, C&O and many othersElden, C&O had some 27,400 alternate standard cars with many variations of end arrangements. L&N had zero alternate standard cars. Regards, Ed Hawkins
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Re: The most common Offset Twin
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Bill;
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The "most common" version of the offset side twin is not the "AAR standard" version, or am I wrong? I guess we should discuss how many roads had how many of each type, shouldn't we? I thought it was the AAR alternate standard car, which has never been done by anyone, has it? L&N, C&O and many others had many thousands of that AAR alt std car, too, didn't they? Elden Gatwood
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Welch Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:32 PM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [STMFC] The most common Offset Twin The most common version did not have the ever so slight "swale" along the bottom of the side sheathing but was straight along the bottom edge of the car's side. The L&N and C&O had thousands of these and the Southern had approximately 3,000. While one can "get there" using Athearn and Atlas models, both involve removing molded on grabs and replacing with wire. The Athearn example is not up to modern standards in that the inside of the car is not modeled correctly. Dennis, my apologies for leaving Accurail off the list I wish would do this car. If you do it, please do not cast the grabs in place! Personally, I don't care about the sill steps. There are only four per car. But on hoppers the many grabs are out there for the world to see and need to be modeled with wire, as with IM's covered hopper and Athearn's Airslide. Bill Welch
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FW: Re: Kadee NYC Hoppers Announced
Not sure what Bill wants, but I want the alternate standard side car for
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Erie, NKP C&O. Brian J. Carlson, P.E. Cheektowaga NY
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of soolinehistory Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 1:34 PM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [STMFC] Re: Kadee NYC Hoppers Announced --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote: version of the offset twin. InterMountain, Rapido, Tahoe, Athearn, Branchline, Walther Proto 2000, is ANYONE listening? So, Bill, what's the most common version of the offset twin? Dennis
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Re: ACC Applicators
Stokes John
Denny,
Thanks for taking the time to be detailed and explicit on your techniques. This kind of information and experience is invaluable and I for one appreciate the tips and will put your method to good use. John Stokes Bellevue, WA To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com From: danspach@macnexus.org Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 09:55:32 -0700 Subject: [STMFC] Re: ACC Applicators This is a copy of my reply to the same inquiry made recently on the Passenger Car List: Three lessons from life about the useful application of ACC from tubes: 1) When puncturing the tube opening, avoid any inadvertent squeezing of the tube so that the contents are not under pressure to pour out. 2) *Never (ever!) allow these tubes to rest in any other position but UPRIGHT (I keep square styrofoam scraps with V-shaped cuts in the middle designed to hold these tubes)*. These simple two directives above will result of having a tube of ACC that- a) can last usable for months on end; and b) has a tip free of any clogging. 3) Do not apply glue directly from tube, but only into a tiny intermediate puddle (Westerfield technique) from which actual application is made by needle or similar. Even then, let the glue flow from the tip without squeezing the tube except perhaps with imperceptible pressure at the very bottom. Instead of glass for puddling, I use small squares of aluminum foil reinforced by folding the edges. I puddle the very tiniest drop, and I use steel sewing needle applicators in holders (superior!), rather than pins. I keep an old razor blade handy to constantly "peel" off any dried ACC on the applicator tip. I purchase Asian-produced ACC tubes in bulk at flea markets for about @ $0.15, and have been doing so for some years. Occasionally, I get a dry tube, or a tube of ACC that sets so fast one does not have time to work it, but on balance this stuff does exactly what I want and expect it to do at very little cost. My current tube was opened for use this past May, and the tube, the applicator, and the glue remain quite usable. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento
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The most common Offset Twin
Bill Welch
The most common version did not have the ever so slight "swale" along the bottom of the side sheathing but was straight along the bottom edge of the car's side. The L&N and C&O had thousands of these and the Southern had approximately 3,000. While one can "get there" using Athearn and Atlas models, both involve removing molded on grabs and replacing with wire. The Athearn example is not up to modern standards in that the inside of the car is not modeled correctly.
Dennis, my apologies for leaving Accurail off the list I wish would do this car. If you do it, please do not cast the grabs in place! Personally, I don't care about the sill steps. There are only four per car. But on hoppers the many grabs are out there for the world to see and need to be modeled with wire, as with IM's covered hopper and Athearn's Airslide. Bill Welch
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Re: Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Vol. 19
William Sharpe <wsharpe1@...>
Hi Ed;
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Thank you for the heads up on RPC Volume 19. I will be sending my remittance to you in the mail today and would like to receive my copy from you at Naperville. I look forward to seeing you then. Bill William H. Sharpe Hamilton, Ontario
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed Hawkins Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 7:48 PM To: STMFC Discussion Group Subject: [STMFC] Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Vol. 19 STMFC Group, The RP CYC Publishing Company is pleased to announce the imminent release of RAILWAY PROTOTYPE CYCLOPEDIA, Volume 19, scheduled for distribution beginning in the last week of October 2009. Volume 19 contains much useful prototype and scale modeling information: 149 black & white and color photographs, 31 diagrams, and 4 tables for a total of 113 pages comprising three in-depth articles on the following subjects: 1. Emergency Composite Box Cars by Patrick C. Wider (50 pages). The article is the fourth in a series that cover American box car designs that were built in large quantities during the first half of the 20th Century. The author covers the single-sheathed and plywood-sheathed 40' and 50' emergency box cars constructed during World War II following restrictions imposed by the War Production Board. 2. Erie 40-Ton Express Milk Cars by Patrick C. Wider (10 pages). The author describes and illustrates the unique Erie express milk cars built during the 1930s by the Greenville Steel Car Company. Also discussed and illustrated are some of the cars converted for express baggage service. 3. The Family of All-Welded 70-Ton 52'-6" Drop-End Gondola Cars Based on PRR's Class G31 by Ed Hawkins (53 pages). The article covers an interesting group of subject cars first built by the Pennsylvania Railroad (Class G31) in 1948-1950, followed in the 1950s with derivatives built by American Car & Foundry and Pullman-Standard for Pennsy, Atlantic Coast Line, Birmingham Southern, Delaware & Hudson, Delaware, Lackawanna & Western, Southern Pacific, Wabash, Sacramento Northern, and Western Pacific. We appreciate your support and extend to you a pre-publication offer for Volume 19. The normal retail price for Volume 19 is $29.95. However, your cost is only $24.00 (postpaid to addresses in the U.S.) - a 20-percent discount. But here's the catch! Your payment must be postmarked by October 24, 2009 for this offer to be valid. Mail orders with postmarks after this date will not be honored. To take advantage of this one-time, pre-publication offer for RP CYC Volume 19, please send a check or money order in the amount of $24.00 by October 24, 2009 to: RP CYC Publishing Co. P.O. Box 451 Chesterfield, MO 63006-0451 Missouri residents must add $1.85 state & local sales tax ($25.85 total amount). For single book orders to Canada, please add $5.79, and for single book orders to all other countries please add $12.28 (Air Mail). Internet users: Please visit our new web site address: http://www.rpcycpub.com. A flyer with summary information in PDF format can be downloaded at: http://www.rpcycpub.com/v19_flyer.pdf For those attending the Naperville Prototype Modelers Seminar, if you wish to have your book delivered at the meet, please indicate. We encourage this option. Please contact me off-list if you have any difficulties downloading the PDF or require additional information. We thank you! Regards, Ed Hawkins & Pat Wider ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
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Re: Kadee NYC Hoppers Announced
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:
So, Bill, what's the most common version of the offset twin? Dennis
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Re: Kadee NYC Hoppers Announced
Bill
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The most common version? Which one is that? It seems to me there are dozens of variants -- sides, ends, hopper door mechanisms, inside length (and cubic capacity). So far we have't gotten any of the "alternate standard" cars (except for the ancient Ulrich castings). I'm hoping for an NP, GN, IC, C&O or NKP car someday... Tim O'Connor
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Re: Kadee NYC Hoppers Announced
Bill Welch
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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Could someone please wake me when a manufacturer offers the most common version of the offset twin. InterMountain, Rapido, Tahoe, Athearn, Branchline, Walther Proto 2000, is ANYONE listening? Bill Welch
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
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