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Re: New Member
Richard Hendrickson
I have two unfinished projects on my plate. #1 is an M&StL 72000Clark, I have only one photo of a M&StL 72000 series stock car, and it's a (not very sharp) low-angle in-consist shot of 72017 (the car next to it is a Maty box car). You may already have this photo, but if not I can scan it and send you a JPEG. #2 is a URTX 4800 seriesI have several photos of these late URTX rebuilds, including one of URTX 4815 with M&StLK stenciling (apparently these cars were rebuilt in the late 1950s/early 1960s, as 1960 is the earliest reweigh date I can find). They were leased to the Soo Line as well as ther M&StL and also operated in short-term leasing service with no stenciling for a specific railroad or shipper. It appears from the photos I have that they had diagonal-panel steel roofs and pressed steel Equipco hatch covers. InterMountain makes both diagonal-panel roofs and Equipco hatch covers for their PFE R-40-25 kits, though I don't know whether they would work dimensionally with the Tyco body. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: Prototype Modelers Seminar Report?
Richard Hendrickson
I will do my best to attend next year, and will also do my best to steerTopic is up to you, Jeff, but all bashing must be done in person. No more of this sniping from a distance via e-mail. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: Prototype Modelers Seminar Report?
Benjamin Hom <bhom3@...>
Jeff Aley wrote:
"Certainly UP supports STEAM-ERA history better than any other existing Class 1 [partially on-topic]." So long as it's UP's OWN steam-era history! You don't see a whole lot of history about C&NW, M-K-T, MP, WP, or SP, except the odd reference to them in the names of UP's vintage passenger car fleet. Kind of like German and Japanese history books skipping over WWII, ya know. Ben Hom
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Re: Prototype Modelers Seminar Report?
Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
On Mar 12, 6:09pm, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Prototype Modelers Seminar Report?UP. Oh, well. At least there's still a UP to bash, unlike the SP, ATSF, and others. For that matter, in my myopic view, there's not much to bash in comparison with UP's peers. Certainly UP supports STEAM-ERA history better than any other existing Class 1 [partially on-topic]. And it seems to me that UP's current FREIGHT CAR fleet [the other half of being on-topic] is as good as any other Class 1's fleet (i.e. full of uninteresting modern cars). I will do my best to attend next year, and will also do my best to steer the conversation towards BNSF-bashing (though I'd much rather bash the last days of the Unfriendly Espee). Regards, -Jeff -- Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com Graphics Components Division Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA (916) 356-3533
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Re: Prototype Modelers Seminar Report?
Richard Hendrickson
All,Dave Nelson spoiled my fun. I was going to say that, no, we weren't going to tell you anything that happened at Pleasanton, not even the rude things people said about the fact that you weren't there, and in future if you want to know what's going on, get your priorities straight and come to the meetings. I will tell you that quite a bit of time was spent trashing the Union Pacific, though it was the current UP, Not the real (historical) UP. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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New Member
Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
Hi,
My name is Clark Propst I model the M&StL in Mason City Iowa. I found this group through an e-mail from Richard Hendrickson. You could say I followed him home. I was surprised to see several messages about the Decker reefers. After I read them I thought I had joined a travel group instead of a bunch of freight car fans. I guess I shouldn't knock good press. I'd be happy to talk about River City (Mason City in the Music Man), but I'd like some help. I have two unfinished projects on my plate. #1 is an M&StL 72000 series double deck stock car (hogs for Deckers). I'm using a photo of a 73000 single deck car and in-consist dd shots as guides. If anyone has a photo of a 72000 I'd like a copy, Please. #2 is a URTX 4800 series reefer that were leased by the M&StL (dressed poultry from EG Morse). It was suggested to me to use a TYCO wood side reefer for this car. I chose to only use the TYCO sides, I used Details West 4/4 dreadnought steel ends, a modified C&BT underframe, but the photos I have unfortunately do not show the roof very well. I can't believe the M&StL was the only road to lease this style of reefer. Can someone clue me in on what to use for the roof? Thanks, Glad to be aboard, Clark
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Re: Northern Pacific Monad size question
David Lenehan <david_lenehan@...>
Bill Welch wrote:
A Will Whittaker photo of NP double sheathed boxcar 12855 photographed in March 1954, with a reweigh date of 10-52, shows the car with the larger Monad or yin/yang symbol and "Main Street of the Northwest" stenciled below it. My question relates to the application of the monad to the NP's doubled sheathed reefers. Would these reefers, or at least some of them, also had the larger monad by the early fifties. Would they also have received the "Main Street of the Northwest" slogan?Hi Bill, What you described above with the 8' Monad and the "Main Street of the Northwest" is actually the boxcar paint scheme introduced by the NP in 1959. Prior to that time, the 4' Monad was used starting in 1953 and the 3' Monad before that time. "The "Main Street of the Northwest" was first added to boxcars in 1948. The NP's wood reefers never (you can bet there was at least on exception now that I've said never) carried the "Main Street" logo. Ice reefers were yellow-orange with mineral brown roof and ends. The curved "NORTHERN PACIFIC" lettering, the three foot Monad and, if they carried a written logo at all it was the "Yellowstone Park Line" logo under the Monad. From 1940, the Monad was simplified to read "Northern Pacific" when the word "railway was dropped off. The red, black and white Monad invariably faded badly until it was black only. No written logo was used after this time on wooden reefers. Hope this helps. David Lenehan
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Re: UTLX tank cars
Larry King <ab8180@...>
At 04:59 PM 3/11/2001 -0500, you wrote:
Dear Larry,bet even for twice that you'd have a market. Look at all the diesel detail parts that are available. Are there REALLY that many people who are serious diesel detailers? I hate to say it, but this is a subject best left to resin castings.apiece, and that mounts up too... Did'ja notice that LifeLike sold out all the built up tank car modelsmodeling for me. And contrary to your casual remark about using existing tank castings,I disagree. The IM tanks are close enough that Sunshine is using them as the basis of their kit, and I never said this would work for EVERY UTLX car.So you have to kitbash a little... I've also thought about making a pattern for some of those sizes to becast in resin. Making a proper coned rivet is the easy part, punching
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Re: Prototype Modelers Seminar Report?
Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
For a variety of reasons, I was unable to attend either of Sunshine Models was our host (i.e., it was not a meeting of the the cult of the personality). Richard gave a nice overview of the design history of covered hoppers as exampled by the ATSF fleet. Gary showed us 60 years of house cars from the Standard railroad of Harrisburg PA. The charts of the fleet population were particularly helpful. no-host lunch. Martin explained why you bring mosquito repellant when railfanning the SSW. Ted compared real gons to model gons (I quite enjoyed this one). Tom showed us Pullman sumps and ducts. Once you know what these things are you start seeing a lot more in the photos. Tony demonstrated how much slide projectors don't like his SP slides, even if his audience does. Much conversation between presentations. It appeared a good time was had by all. And if my bag was any indication, Martin made out fairly well. Dave Nelson
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Re: More Tank Cars in the Frt Conductors Book
Bill Kelly
If the number is right, TNO 51215, then this is a box car. A B-40-6 to
be exact. There were 178 of these in '49. This must have been oil in cans. T&NO tank cars were numbered in the 17000s and 18000s after 1930. If it's really an SP number then Guy covered it with the CS-25As. Bill Kelly Guy wrote: snip<ancient (for the time) 1903 built CS-25A tank of which only a "handful" werestill in service in 1949. There were also transfers of 0-50-5 tanks from T&NO toSP (pre WWll), but this number does not fit into that number range________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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Re: Northern Pacific Monad size question
John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
Bill - I have a list of the NP scheme changes at:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Paint/Paint-N.html as best I can find the information (mostly from Todd Sullivan's NP Color Guide) and I would assume the reefer schemes followed the same chronology. (And if not, I'd be glad to note that in that section.) - John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Welch" <bwelch@uucf.org> To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 1:14 PM Subject: [STMFC] Northern Pacific Monad size question A Will Whittaker photo of NP double sheathed boxcar 12855 photographed inMarch 1954, with a reweigh date of 10-52, shows the car with the larger Monad or yin/yang symbol and "Main Street of the Northwest" stenciled below it. sheathed reefers. Would these reefers, or at least some of them, also had the larger monad by the early fifties. Would they also have received the "Main Street of the Northwest" slogan? wanting to think about how to decal them using the Microscale set, which includes both sizes but provides no historical information regarding dates of application of the various schemes.
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Prototype Modelers Seminar Report?
Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
All,
For a variety of reasons, I was unable to attend either of Sunshine Models' seminars here in California. There was one in Southern California on the 4th, and one in Northern California on the 11th. Can some of the attendees comment on the presentations and the event in general? Thanks, -Jeff -- Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com Graphics Components Division Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA (916) 356-3533
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Northern Pacific Monad size question
Bill Welch <bwelch@...>
A Will Whittaker photo of NP double sheathed boxcar 12855 photographed in March 1954, with a reweigh date of 10-52, shows the car with the larger Monad or yin/yang symbol and "Main Street of the Northwest" stenciled below it.
My question relates to the application of the monad to the NP's doubled sheathed reefers. Would these reefers, or at least some of them, also had the larger monad by the early fifties. Would they also have received the "Main Street of the Northwest" slogan? I am getting ready to start painting two "Norwest" reefer models and I am wanting to think about how to decal them using the Microscale set, which includes both sizes but provides no historical information regarding dates of application of the various schemes. Bill 'Welch <bwelch@uucf.org> Associate Minister, Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Fairfax P.O. Box 130 Oakton VA 22124 www.uucf.org Telephone 703 281-4230 Fax 703 281-5399
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Re: random questions
byronrose@...
After my minor diatribe t'other day, I decided to review some of the
other answers given to friend Richard (Stallworth) and felt the urge to go above and beyond. To wit: Grab Irons: I prefer Westerfield's wire grabs - they're brass,This is kind of a cop out answer, since most wire grabs available are brass. The question is should we be encouraging friend Richard to keep using the same old, same old .012" wire which we all know is about 50% overscale? Why not encourage him to bend his own using .010" or even .008" wire, a task I find I can do in less time than straightening some of the prefab grabs, and get nice sharp corners in the bargain. Besides, a lot depends where he's installing those grab irons, somebodies kit where the size is predetermined, or a self inflicted location. BTW, sometimes filing flush is not the thing to do. Let them project about .005" and it will represent the bolt head on the inside of the car. remember, they do not use lag bolts to hold grab irons on. In fact one of the major points in the original 1911 Safety Standards was that all hand holds (sic) be held on in a non loosening way. That would mean either rivets or bolts with the threads projecting about 1/2" beyond the nut on the visible side and its edges peened over, i.e. riveted. The theory being that a lag bolt could loosen up in transit and when a workman grabbed on, it would come loose spilling said workman all over the countryside. Your choices for bracket typeActually, as discussed, DA is not even in the game, unless you model in OO scale. I'm still looking for a place to use 24" bracket grabs. Any of the newer kits grabs, IM, BLT, RC are at least the more common 18" wide, but represent 2" diameter rod, rather than the more common 5/8" - 3/4" used. And the bracket parts are closer to 1"x3" bar, rather than the 3/8" x 11/2" used. There are ways to model them more accurately, but not in an email message. Stirrup Steps: A-Line steps whever prototypically appropriate - theMore disagreement, especially because I hate to see these parts on a model with those cursed wide radius corners while the prototype has crisp sharp corners. The DA steps, where there is a close match, is so much closer to scale than any DIY version I have seen, and I have yet to break one, either off or internally. The key is proper handling and installation. I know a lot of our list members swear by A-Lines steps, but I prefer to bend my own, with sharp corners, from DA .010" x .030" brass. It's a little smaller than A-Line uses, I think, and takes a crisp corner, most of the time. OTOH, I am looking for a source of strip brass closer to .007" x .020" for my own future use. I may even have to cut it myself. Brake Details: Tichy makes very nice K and AB brake sets which blowOnly if you model TT scale. See my previous message. Brake Wheels: For later brake wheels, Kadee offers the same ones onExcept for Ajax wheels and housings, where there is a choice, this depends on what is appropriate to the prototype (don't you just enjoy typing that word, all on one line of the keyboard!) being modeled and who offers the correct type. All the non-Ajaxs seem to be pretty good representations, but I'm sure there are others who know much more about this subject than I do. I wish they'd make that info more readily available. For metal running boards, etched metal is the way to go, withDone right, yes to all of above. Problem is, nobody does them right. If you bother to check a real RUNNING BOARD (that was for RHs benefit), you'd see that the thickness at the edge is about 1 1/4" to 1 3/4", depending on type. Most etched running boards are .005" to .007" thick, which is way less than half of what they should be. Look at a photo of a typical model with an etched board, and besides the waves which infect it, it looks like it will depress when anything heavier than a small dog walks on it. The solution to metal boards is to solder wire to each edge, which is nigh onto impossible and still keep 'em straight. Another problem is the joints between running board panels which occur on the (alternating) supports which on most steel roofs are at 37" or 39" apart (I forget which). An unbroken stretch of etched metal board kinda looses that rhythm of running board to roof ribs. It can be solved, but its not as easy as it should be, at least not yet. Properly building and detailing freight car models, as well as any models, is an ongoing process. It starts with learning as much as possible about your subject and then incorporating that knowledge into your construction efforts. Learning can happen by building models, reading how others build models, learning how real cars were (and still are) built, and seeing how real cars are built. For instance, the best way to see how underbody equipment is put together is too look under a freight car. Fortunately, there are enough cars from our era still in existence that can be peered under. There are also cameras available today (that were not as recently as 15 years ago) that can effortlessly take excellent underbody detail photos to share with all of us so the art won't be lost when the cars are. Just remember, pre-digital photographs don't lie. If you model what's on a photo, your models should be pretty close to accurate. Just don't question that statement please, because even I don't think I understand it now that I've written it. Byron Rose ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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Re: UTLX tank cars
byronrose@...
Dear Larry,
Your idea is great. You could probably guarantee a manufacturer that each of the 200 or so people on this list would buy ten underframes. But how could they cover the other 48,000 or so they need to sell to make any money on it. I hate to say it, but this is a subject best left to resin castings. That's the only venue available to us for the real life quantities that this type of model represents. Sorry. Did'ja notice that LifeLike sold out all the built up tank car models they brought in, while Martin Loftin is still begging people to buy his kit? I guess that's not a fair comparison to make. How about this. I built one P2K kit and than went and bought a dozen built ups. How many others did the same? And contrary to your casual remark about using existing tank castings, 'tain't so. It seems every tank car manufacturer used different combinations of diameter and length to get to those 6, 8, and 10,000 gallon sizes. Using info from 50 years worth of Cycs, I've found only a handful that could be adapted from the 4 existing riveted tanks, and then only by diameter, their lengths would have to be changed. That doesn't even begin to cover the 4, 6, and 12,000 gallon sizes. I've also thought about making a pattern for some of those sizes to be cast in resin. Making a proper coned rivet is the easy part, punching them into brass only slightly less easy, rolling said shell and keeping a curve behind each rivet completely escapes me. You see, each little round pyramid reinforces the metal around it's base so that when the shell is rolled, it will appear as though it a series of flat surfaces joined by bent planes, rather than curved. Remember, those rivets on the prototype were hammered in after the shell was curved. So far, we don't have that luxury. The cast tanks available had the rivets cut into the molds after the roll of the tank was cut. OTOH, there's the possibility of using the same old NWSL rivets punched into styrene sheet as usual, but then we'd have a tank that looked just like all those imported brass models with those cute little dimples, rather than the big, hefty RIVETS they need. How could we tell them apart? I'm still trying to get my act into order to make available copies of my patterns for the corrected ACF tank car underframe which sits 65% completed in a box on my work(?)bench. A URTX underframe was supposed to be next. I hope that when Martin Loftin does his it's more accurate than his ACF underframe. Byron Rose On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:07:48 -0500 Larry King <ab8180@wayne.edu> writes: 3-5-01________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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(No subject)
Larry King <ab8180@...>
3-9-01
My comments about UTLX car frames was simply throwing an idea out there for consideration.I had always thought there was general standardisation of the X-3 underframe in the UTLX fleet. If this was in fact not so,obviously this would limit the use of an aftermarket underframe. Are you sure the cars you measured were in fact built to UTLX design, and did not come into the fleet from somewhere else? Regards, LR King
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Re: UTLX tank cars
dixierails <dixierails@...>
Larry,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Sometime ago I measured three UTLX tankcars built prior to WWII. One was a 100,000lb (10,036 gal) capacity insulated car built 8-14-1920. The second insulated car was 10,032 gal and built 6-23.The uninsulated one was a 80,000lb capacity built 10-37. All three had different end walks. Will someone pick and manufacture the most comman centerframe, say the X-3 6,000 gal car, the 8,000 gal car or the 10000 gal car? Or is there a chance the centerframe will be similar to the Tichy tankcar frame and allow for some modification? Has Tichy or Grandt Line or Detail West shown any interest in creating such a centerframe? I'd be interested in buy a coulpe dozen. I'd be just as interested in buying a couple dozen of the 5 vertical band tank cars. Just thoughts, any comments? Larry Sexton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry King" <ab8180@wayne.edu> To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: [STMFC] UTLX tank cars The discussion by Richard Hendrikson about the need for UTLX tank cars prompts LR King
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UTLX tank cars
Larry King <ab8180@...>
3-5-01
This is a revision of a note I sent to John Nerich's NYB&W website. The discussion by Richard Hendrikson about the need for UTLX tank cars prompts me to repeat it: Why couldn't one of the detail parts makers (ie, Detail Associates, Tichy,New England Rail Service,etc)make a separate UTLX X-3 style underframe in styrene that could be fitted to the several available tanks from Tichy, Intermountain(especially Intermountain),and Red Caboose,perhaps with a center sill that would be cut to length to suit the particular tank.This could result in accurate UTLX models without the investment in die work needed for the whole car, especially the tank. AB or K brake options could be provided too.The data needed is available in the Car Builder's Cyc and on museum cars. I would think the "prototype conscious" crowd would provide a customer base for such a part, even if not for complete UTLX kits. Remember that UTLX was like PFE- the cars all looked much alike but were around in huge numbers and went everywhere. Everybody needs a few! LR King
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Re: Builders' Lot Lists
John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
I would be glad to post any such lists, either as scanned in jpeg files or
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
text files, on the rpi site for all to share. - John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff English" <englij@rpi.edu> To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 8:12 PM Subject: [STMFC] Builders' Lot Lists From time to time several contributors to this list will quote
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Re: UTLX tank cars
n40015@...
Larry,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I believe that this is what is coming from Sunshine Models, although it will be a complete kit that includes an Intermountain tank. Apparently the holdup is getting someone to etch the brass details that are to be included in the kit: platforms, ladders, etc. I'm as eager as anyone to get these kits on the market. Sunshine's earlier ACF 8,000-gal insulated tank car makes an absolutely stunning model. They're a challenge to build, but the builder's efforts are well rewarded. The new X-3 tank car was designed to greatly lessen that "challenge" and still yield an outstanding and versatile model. Charlie
In a message dated 3/9/1 9:00:08 AM, ab8180@wayne.edu writes:
<< 3-5-01 This is a revision of a note I sent to John Nerich's NYB&W website. The discussion by Richard Hendrikson about the need for UTLX tank cars prompts me to repeat it: Why couldn't one of the detail parts makers (ie, Detail Associates, Tichy,New England Rail Service,etc)make a separate UTLX X-3 style underframe in styrene that could be fitted to the several available tanks from Tichy, Intermountain(especially Intermountain),and Red Caboose,perhaps with a center sill that would be cut to length to suit the particular tank.This could result in accurate UTLX models without the investment in die work needed for the whole car, especially the tank. AB or K brake options could be provided too.The data needed is available in the Car Builder's Cyc and on museum cars. I would think the "prototype conscious" crowd would provide a customer base for such a part, even if not for complete UTLX kits. Remember that UTLX was like PFE- the cars all looked much alike but were around in huge numbers and went everywhere. Everybody needs a few! LR King >>
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