--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:

On Nov 17, 2009, at 8:14 PM, cef39us wrote:

The NJI&I 4100-4149 series cars were built new by Decatur shop in
1944, at the same time the second group of Wabash 86000 series
cars were being built. Wabash 86000-86519 were built in 1942, and
86520-86874 in 1944. The reason for the decreased number of cars in
the 86000 series after 1950 was a result of 263 cars being sent in
September of that year to the Evans Co., in Plymouth, Mich.,for
application of DF utility loaders. The randomly selected cars were
equipped and renumbered 9000-9199 and 9300-9362.

Chet,
Thanks for your explanation that clarifies these cars. Another item
that has added to my confusion of these cars is a photo of WAB 86694
taken by Col. Chet McCoid in 1956. The build date of the car clearly
has "BUILT 9-40" stencils. Presumably this was a mistake.

Also, the photo of WAB 86694 from the second group shows a 7-panel
Superior door, whereas a photo of WAB 86271 from the first group built
in 1942 shows a Youngstown door. A photo of NJI&I 4145 shows a
Youngstown door. Do you have data on the door assignments for the cars
in series 86000-86874?

Ed,

I have photos of 86555, 86684, 86727, and 86856 and three of them have 8-44 built dates and all have 7-panel Superior doors. The two photos I have of the 1942 cars show Youngstown doors. I do not have any data on door assignments other than photographic evidence.

Apparently I am beginning to have a problem with memory loss as I found a photo of NJI&I 4157 after stating that I had not seen a photo of the 4150-4249 group of cars. It has a small flag above the reporting marks.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

On Nov 17, 2009, at 8:14 PM, cef39us wrote:

The NJI&I 4100-4149 series cars were built new by Decatur shop in
1944, at the same time the second group of Wabash 86000 series
cars were being built. Wabash 86000-86519 were built in 1942, and
86520-86874 in 1944. The reason for the decreased number of cars in
the 86000 series after 1950 was a result of 263 cars being sent in
September of that year to the Evans Co., in Plymouth, Mich.,for
application of DF utility loaders. The randomly selected cars were
equipped and renumbered 9000-9199 and 9300-9362.

Chet,
Thanks for your explanation that clarifies these cars. Another item
that has added to my confusion of these cars is a photo of WAB 86694
taken by Col. Chet McCoid in 1956. The build date of the car clearly
has "BUILT 9-40" stencils. Presumably this was a mistake.

Also, the photo of WAB 86694 from the second group shows a 7-panel
Superior door, whereas a photo of WAB 86271 from the first group built
in 1942 shows a Youngstown door. A photo of NJI&I 4145 shows a
Youngstown door. Do you have data on the door assignments for the cars
in series 86000-86874?

Thanks in advance.
Ed Hawkins

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Looks like an AAR standard twin... again... for the fourth time in HO...
whahoo yippee ky-ay.

Tim,

I am aware of 3 offset twins - Atlas, Kadee, Athearn, and ?

What are the significant differences between the pre-war offset twins?

Looking through the RPI site, they characterize the accurail design as a "long-taper" car, and the Alton 61099 photo is one possible match. The B&O N-35 is another possible match, as might be the L&NE, L&N, Southern and other offsets. The Reading HTt class looks to be a good match.

The Atlas offset seems to be of the same "long-taper" type, so perhaps the Accurail will be just like the Atlas?

Seems like the "short taper" offset twin still eludes us?

Looking through the RPI site, it looks like the vast majority of offset twins were 33-34 feet, but some early cars were 30'. The accurail site does not state the length.

Outside of the taper, and the number of ribs, it seems like the various prototype cars had few spotting differences outside of safety appliances? (and the obvious peak vs flat ends) Can someone educate me?

Dave Evans

Looks like an AAR standard twin... again... for the fourth time in HO...
whahoo yippee ky-ay.

That would be OT/SP&S trains on the twisty part from Wishram to Bend with 1.5% grade
they did use a lot of GN power , GN Bend to Bieber, IIRC there max grade was about 1.5 too.
Time will tell as I go thru more pages, and see how train numbers match up.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO




________________________________
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 10:55:31 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (GN, WP Interchange At Bieber)


On Nov 17, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Al Daumann wrote:

Did the bulk of the GN train become the WP and vice versa? If so,
why are there twice as many WP trains as GN . . .

One possibility is that the GN trains were twice as long (or
twice as heavy), the WP line south of Bieber being more challenging
than the GN line north of it.

That may well have been true to some extent, but twice as long? I
doubt it. GN trains had to come up the steep and twisty Deschutes
Gorge from the Columbia River before they got to Bend and another
challenging mountain grade between Bend and Chemult. Granted, the GN
ran substantial 2-8-8-0s and 2-10-2s on the Oregon line, but the
standard WP power on the Keddie to Bieber "High line" was equally
substantial 2-6-6-2s and 2-8-8-2s, and through freight trains (i.e.,
almost all of the traffic) were operated with mid-train and rear end
helpers. Much more likely, WP ran only two second class scheduled
freight trains a day and the rest of the freight traffic as non-
scheduled extras.

Richard Hendrickson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My understanding is that the new twin hopper will be a"standard" offset style utilizing the same detail sprues as the Accurail 3-bay 70t hopper.

John Greedy

--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:

On Nov 17, 2009, at 11:13 AM, leakinmywaders wrote:

Does anyone have information on the type of running board and brake
step on 40ft boxcars NJI&I 4100-4270? These are steel 8-panel riveted
cars of 10ft 4 1/2in internal height, 5/5 ends, and--I
think--rectangular panel roofs. From profile view the running boards
appear to be metal. Though akin to standard 1944 AAR design (aside
from the modified side panels side sills continuous between bolsters)
these cars aren't listed in my version of Ed Hawkins' table of 1944
AAR boxcars.

Here's an excellent Jim Sands photo at Fallen Flags:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/wab/njii4254ajs.jpg

Also if anyone has suggestions about decal sources in HO for this
car, I'd welcome that.

Thanks,
Chris Frissell

Chris,
It's best that Chet French reply to your question to provide what you
are looking for.

Note that the car in the photo has 8-panel sides. Cars in the series
NJI&I 4100-4270 came from two different groups, 50 of which were built
as all-steel cars having 10-panel sides (4100-4149) in 1944 and the
others with 8-panel sides as shown in the photo of 4254. It's unclear
to me if 4100-4149 were the original numbers or if Wabash transferred
them to NJI&I from the original WAB 86000-86874.

The 4254 was originally a war emergency box car from WAB 87000-87124
(refer to Pat Wider's article in RP CYC Vol. 19). Circa 1961-62 (out of
scope for this forum) remaining cars were rebuilt as all-steel cars
with 8-panel riveted sides and placed in series 4150-4270. This is why
these cars aren't listed the roster I prepared.

The 10-panel cars in series NJI&I 4100-4149 should be included in the
AAR box car roster, but I must first determine if these were original
numbers or if they were transferred from Wabash 86000-86874, and if
so, the date of the transfer. There may have been some other cars
renumbered because in 4/51 there were only 607 cars listed in series
WAB 86000-86874.

Chris and Ed,

The NJI&I 4100-4149 series cars were built new by Decatur shop in
1944, at the same time the second group of Wabash 86000 series
cars were being built. Wabash 86000-86519 were built in 1942, and
86520-86874 in 1944. The reason for the decreased number of cars in the 86000 series after 1950 was a result of 263 cars being sent in September of that year to the Evans Co., in Plymouth, Mich.,for application of DF utility loaders. The randomly selected cars were
equipped and renumbered 9000-9199 and 9300-9362.

Two fifty car lots of the Wabash war emergency cars, rebuilt into all-steel cars, were sent to the NJI&I in August (4150-4199) and November
(4200-4249) 1960. My detailed records end in December 1960. It appears that NJI&I 4254 was from a group of cars turned out be Decatur shop in January 1961. Looks like a XD 1-61 reweigh date on the car.

Here is where my research hasn't ended. The NJI&I 4254 is painted in what I have referred to as the 1961 scheme. This large flag scheme was introduced on the last new 40'-6" box cars purchased by the Wabash
in 1961, the 91000-91514 series cars with a nine foot door opening.
I have not seen a photo of a car in the 4150-4249 series, so I do not know if the large flag lettering scheme was authorized prior to 1961, to be used on the cars outshopped in August and November 1960, or did those 100 cars get the small flag?

Chris, I imagine the rebuilt war emergency cars kept their Apex Tri-Lok running boards and brake step, and Miner hand brakes. Mark Vaughan sells Wabash box car decals. You need the set with the large flags and nine inch car numbers.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

I see Accurail has announced a new Offset twin hopper on their web site. I have searched the archives here and found no mention. Is this brand new and not yet discussed? It will be interesting to see which design it will be - I am not offset hopper knowledgeable (what can I say, I am an admitted SPF... my name is Dave...). Hopefully it will be a pre-war, or WWII design. I know I need some foreign road offsets, and I see B&O had at least 3000 of them during WWII (Thanks to Ben Hom for his B&O modeling hopper article), and that C&O had a bunch too. To date, only the Atlas twin offset has been available in styrene(??), and being hoppers, a fleet is required, so resin is too time consuming. The Kadee twin offset seems to be a post-war car?

While Athearn may have abandoned the kit business, and red caboose tooling is for sale, kudos to Accurail for cranking out new tooling!

Thoughts?

Dave Evans

Hi Bill- here's another source for anyone else still looking.

http://www.cycloneblasters.com/benchtop.htm

Chris Sawicki



________________________________
From: lnbill <fgexbill@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 12:23:55 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Painting Trucks- using a blaster as a modeling tool

 
Actually I have been in touch with John and he is down to one blast media booth and is holding it for me. It sounds like his supplier is no longer. He does have blast media.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, Andy Carlson <midcentury@ ...> wrote:

Hi,
Ned mentioned the North Coast Hobbies line of media abrasives. John Polyak, proprietor of NC told me that he still is selling media blast booths, and fine sized media suitable for modeling purposes. He also has paint booths.

He can be contacted at <jrpolyak@.. .> and I encourage anyone contemplating a media blaster to contact him. Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

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.

Does anyone know if Champ is still selling down their inventory of decals? If so do we know how to contact them?

Yes and yes. Pretty well-behaved web site.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Try www.minot.com/champ/.

Jim Hayes

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:08 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...>wrote:

Does anyone know if Champ is still selling down their inventory of
decals?

If so do we know how to contact them?

Thanks:

Bill Pardie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone know if Champ is still selling down their inventory of decals?

If so do we know how to contact them?

Thanks:

Bill Pardie

--- In STMFC@..., "lrkdbn" <lrkdbn@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Jim King" jimking3@ wrote:

I've been asked to consider producing an HO resin kit of the B&O

50/55-ton

2-bay hopper, class N12.

If this is the car design referred to in "Coal Cars--The first 300

Years" as the "1905 common design" I think it would be a very useful
kit,as many other RRs had them. I know I'd be willing to buy 5 or 6

of a good kit for it.
Larry King

There are rumors that Branchline intends to do the "1905 common design"
in styrene and it would be a slightly different design than the B&O
N-12. I am not sure with Bill Schneider leaving if that will chnage
Branchlines plans. I believe there is room for both cars and Jim's
request can be answered with that possibility in mind.

The B&O N-12 first appeared in ~1912 and is a more modern design; taller
with a larger capacity than the 1905 hoppers. They did retain the end
platforms. Other railroads had very similar hoppers, but I unfortunately
do not have a very complete representation of these cars as I
concentrate on photos of B&O hoppers. A have found a few examples of
"add-on" orders from coal companies for hoppers made from the B&O
drawings. If others have photos from other railroads these could be
compared with the N-12. I will try to obtain permission to post a photo
representative of the N-12 and hopefully we can find many examples.
Although coal hoppers tended to stay on their home roads, I assume that
B&O hoppers wandered far and wide proving loads of coal to many coal
dealers and small coal fired boiler plants across the eastern United
States.

I wish Jim good luck with this project.

Regards,

Bob Witt

On Nov 17, 2009, at 11:13 AM, leakinmywaders wrote:

Does anyone have information on the type of running board and brake
step on 40ft boxcars NJI&I 4100-4270? These are steel 8-panel riveted
cars of 10ft 4 1/2in internal height, 5/5 ends, and--I
think--rectangular panel roofs. From profile view the running boards
appear to be metal. Though akin to standard 1944 AAR design (aside
from the modified side panels side sills continuous between bolsters)
these cars aren't listed in my version of Ed Hawkins' table of 1944
AAR boxcars.

Here's an excellent Jim Sands photo at Fallen Flags:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/wab/njii4254ajs.jpg

Also if anyone has suggestions about decal sources in HO for this
car, I'd welcome that.

Thanks,
Chris Frissell

Chris,
It's best that Chet French reply to your question to provide what you
are looking for.

Note that the car in the photo has 8-panel sides. Cars in the series
NJI&I 4100-4270 came from two different groups, 50 of which were built
as all-steel cars having 10-panel sides (4100-4149) in 1944 and the
others with 8-panel sides as shown in the photo of 4254. It's unclear
to me if 4100-4149 were the original numbers or if Wabash transferred
them to NJI&I from the original WAB 86000-86874.

The 4254 was originally a war emergency box car from WAB 87000-87124
(refer to Pat Wider's article in RP CYC Vol. 19). Circa 1961-62 (out of
scope for this forum) remaining cars were rebuilt as all-steel cars
with 8-panel riveted sides and placed in series 4150-4270. This is why
these cars aren't listed the roster I prepared.

The 10-panel cars in series NJI&I 4100-4149 should be included in the
AAR box car roster, but I must first determine if these were original
numbers or if they were transferred from Wabash 86000-86874, and if
so, the date of the transfer. There may have been some other cars
renumbered because in 4/51 there were only 607 cars listed in series
WAB 86000-86874.

No doubt that Chet has the answers!
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Actually I have been in touch with John and he is down to one blast media booth and is holding it for me. It sounds like his supplier is no longer. He does have blast media.

Bill Welch

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

That may well have been true to some extent, but twice as long? I doubt it. GN trains had to come up the steep and twisty Deschutes Gorge from the Columbia River before they got to Bend and another challenging mountain grade between Bend and Chemult.

Richard, you're forgetting that GN had a yard at Klamath Falls and could make up larger trains to run to Bieber from there. Anyone pursuing this topic will need to look at GN trains ARRIVING at K Falls from the north over the difficult terrain Richard correctly describes, as well as arrivals at Bieber.
Richard's second point, that we do not know the extent to which extra freights were operated by EITHER railroad, is also important and can't be solved with employee timetables.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Nov 17, 2009, at 7:37 AM, william darnaby wrote:

Thanks, Richard. I guess I'll go with the flow. OTOH, should I
choose to
stray from 1638 given the dearth of data, who's going to prove me
wrong?
Doing so sounds like a sure way to turn up a photo <g>.

True. And given the fact that the GATC's car numbering "system" in
your era wasn't at all systematic, you could put almost any number on
the car and no one could say you were wrong. I'll never tell. The
trouble is, you've now gone public on the STMFC list, so now someone
will probably point an accusing finger at the model and say, "hey,
I'll bet you made that number up." But then you can just respond
with that enigmatic smile you do so well.

Richard Hendrickson

To get up to Lake Alamanor (2.2% grade) WP usually used three 2-6-6-2's
spaced 10-12 cars apart, and fourth on the end, which might be a 2-8-8-2.
For a typical thru train, at Keddie they would fill out the tonnage with
D&RGW GS Gons bearing w/ Utah coal and they'd manage 2-5mph on the steepest
part of the line.

IIRC, post WWII there were two 2nd class trains, one of which was the
Westwood/Almanor Turn, so there was only one scheduled thru train, #177/178.
On the main, for many years #77/78 were known as trash haulers (a.k.a.
peddlers) which might also say something about these two linking up with the
GN. I doubt there were any more scheduled trains before the war and I'm not
familiar with operations post Korean War.

Doesn't sound like much but then one has to know that at Westwood was one of
the largest lumber mills in the world; if not the largest: Red River Lumber,
home of Paul Bunyon and Babe, his Blue Ox and that alone was apparently
thought to be worth the effort to build this line in the first place. Going
on to Bieber turned out to be a pipe dream: SP screwed the WP w/ a loophole
in an agreement to move lumber on that line and the GN/ATSF traffic was nice
but never lived up to it's high expectations.

FWIW, this route remained dark (unsignalled) well into the UP era (perhaps
even to this day).

Dave Nelson

Does anyone have information on the type of running board and brake step on 40ft boxcars NJI&I 4100-4270? These are steel 8-panel riveted cars of 10ft 4 1/2in internal height, 5/5 ends, and--I think--rectangular panel roofs. From profile view the running boards appear to be metal. Though akin to standard 1944 AAR design (aside from the modified side panels side sills continuous between bolsters) these cars aren't listed in my version of Ed Hawkins' table of 1944 AAR boxcars.

Here's an excellent Jim Sands photo at Fallen Flags:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/wab/njii4254ajs.jpg

Also if anyone has suggestions about decal sources in HO for this car, I'd welcome that.

Thanks,

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

On Nov 17, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Al Daumann wrote:

Did the bulk of the GN train become the WP and vice versa? If so,
why are there twice as many WP trains as GN . . .

One possibility is that the GN trains were twice as long (or
twice as heavy), the WP line south of Bieber being more challenging
than the GN line north of it.

That may well have been true to some extent, but twice as long? I
doubt it. GN trains had to come up the steep and twisty Deschutes
Gorge from the Columbia River before they got to Bend and another
challenging mountain grade between Bend and Chemult. Granted, the GN
ran substantial 2-8-8-0s and 2-10-2s on the Oregon line, but the
standard WP power on the Keddie to Bieber "High line" was equally
substantial 2-6-6-2s and 2-8-8-2s, and through freight trains (i.e.,
almost all of the traffic) were operated with mid-train and rear end
helpers. Much more likely, WP ran only two second class scheduled
freight trains a day and the rest of the freight traffic as non-
scheduled extras.

Richard Hendrickson