Date   

Re: box car colors

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

I've also stared at that photo for a long time, as it really is a great go-by
for hopper weathering.

To add a few more thoughts to the good dialog on this:

PRR had, in its pre-galvanized steel sheet use days, many cars that seem to
have utlized steel that, when the paint wore off, had a blue cast to it. One
can examine many photos that show that, but I also remember looking at this
stuff in person, back when. The X26 in vol. 1 or the PRR Color Guide comes
to mind. That car at middle right does look like the paint has worn off, and
the unstained part of the sheet is blueish bare steel. I agree with you
guys. The orange stain looks like the contact area for an orange load, just
like the ore being loaded, maybe slightly wet;

Coke, when loaded hot (which it was at times) could heat up to the point of
combustion, and roast a car from inside. I saw a lot of cars roasted this
way in and around Pittsburgh, growing up. One doesn't see as many of these
cars as you used to, but it still happens. The car behind the one being
loaded does not give me the impression that a roasted car has, however. I
think the suggestion of smudge pot use is much more likely on that car;

The car being dumped into is a rebuilt GLA twin, is it not? I think 151046
was in that series. It has a cross bar, triangular gusset, and cross bar
interior;

Ore transfers/dumpers, like this Hulett, were one of the reasons that the
PRR rebuilt its H21A (car on near left and both in 2nd row) with traingular
gussets on the interiors (as H21E), and got rid of the cross-bars that were
constantly being ripped free of the side, with unfortunate effects. Can you
imagine the impact force of that load coming down!

Lastly, a number of the H21A have the large reinforcement angle on the top
chord, and two are also bent inward significantly at that point. Could this
be rotary dumper damage?

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Schuyler Larrabee
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 11:12 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: box car colors



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "railwayman" <stevelucas3@...>
wrote:

This is a personal favourite. Standard Railroad of the World
modelers on this list can opine on
standard PRR freight
car red, but here's at least nine PRR hoppers, each of a slightly
different hue--

http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original
<http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original>
<http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original
<http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original> >
One has a lot of leeway in matching STMFC colours.

Steve Lucas.
Group,

The hopper behind the one being loaded has "two" colors on one car,
and it triggered a
recollection of a very recent
conversation with modern rail car equipment manufacturers - the
heating of hoppers to thaw the
load. Even today, this is
an environmental challenge for any electrical equipment that may be
installed on a rail car (ECP
braking).

I wonder what an over-aggressive thawing attempt would do to WWII era
paints? Could explain all of
the cars that look
more like charred grey than FCC. Especially the "two" color hopper in
the photo - perhaps someone
was too aggressive
trying to thaw one end?

This would likely be a phenomena unique to hoppers?

Dave Evans
Interesting observations, Dale. The one I find interesting is the foreground
car on which you can read "PENNSYLVANIA." The blueness and staining of the
interior are very interesting and different from what one would expect
without having actually LOOKED at the prototype.

SGL

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Re: Conductors Train Book, Traud, Oct. to Dec., 1951

Tim O'Connor
 

No... an imbalance in one direction is somewhat problematical. How
do you explain that?

Tim, I'm assuming you only mean this to work for eastbound loads?
Tony Thompson


Re: Conductors Train Book, Traud, Oct. to Dec., 1951

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike

??? What do you mean, 43 RRs converged on Omaha?

Tim O'Connor

Yes...I've basically been saying the same thing. Of course...there IS the
other end...the east. About 43 RRs converged on Omaha, about 43 converged on
Kansas City and at least 6 converged at Denver. Not sure what that means....

Mike Brock


Re: Conductors Train Book, Traud, Oct. to Dec., 1951

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:
Mike, the SP box car numbers back up Gilbert's ideas. The UP Overland route in that part of Wyoming represents a convergence of traffic from 3 sources -- the SP mainline (on which SP cars are overrepresented) and two UP mainlines -- OSL and LA&SL. If SP cars match the national distribution on the latter two lines, then the abundance of them coming off the SP mainline added to the SP cars off the other lines, means there would be a higher percentage of them expected in the combined traffic mix. QED. :-)
Tim, I'm assuming you only mean this to work for eastbound loads?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Conductors Train Book, Traud, Oct. to Dec., 1951

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:



Mike, the SP box car numbers back up Gilbert's ideas. The UP
Overland route in that part of Wyoming represents a convergence
of traffic from 3 sources -- the SP mainline (on which SP cars
are overrepresented) and two UP mainlines -- OSL and LA&SL. If
SP cars match the national distribution on the latter two lines,
then the abundance of them coming off the SP mainline added to
the SP cars off the other lines, means there would be a higher
percentage of them expected in the combined traffic mix. QED. :-)
Yes...I've basically been saying the same thing. Of course...there IS the other end...the east. About 43 RRs converged on Omaha, about 43 converged on Kansas City and at least 6 converged at Denver. Not sure what that means....

Mike Brock


Re: box car colors

pennsylvania1954
 

These cars were used interchangably in iron ore and coal service. Of interest here is the necessity of loading iron ore only over the trucks and not in the center of the car. In addition to the car being loaded with the dump at one end, the car immediately ahead in line to the left has the tops of the piles visible if you look closely. Iron ore is significantly more dense than coal so the load limit is reached before the car is full. Loading over the center could and did damage these four bay cars.

Blue painted coal in a PRR hopper? Sure, but I have to see a better photo than this one before I load my airbrush......

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, John Stokes <ggstokes@...> wrote:


I know that there was a Blue Coal Co., but would that explain the cast of the inside of the car in the pattern shown? Wouldn't it then be actually more blue, and not the shade of steel blue/gray that appears? Were these cars being used in coal service or taconite service? If what some see as a blue cast on the insides of that car is indeed caused by the load, then why is the machinery of the loading facility approximately that same shade of steel blue/gray? I think we are straining at a gnat here, wanting to see something exotic when it is more prosaic.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA


Re: box car colors

Stokes John
 

I know that there was a Blue Coal Co., but would that explain the cast of the inside of the car in the pattern shown? Wouldn't it then be actually more blue, and not the shade of steel blue/gray that appears? Were these cars being used in coal service or taconite service? If what some see as a blue cast on the insides of that car is indeed caused by the load, then why is the machinery of the loading facility approximately that same shade of steel blue/gray? I think we are straining at a gnat here, wanting to see something exotic when it is more prosaic.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA


To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
From: devans1@erols.com
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 01:56:15 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Re: box car colors




























--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, SUVCWORR@... wrote:

Bill,
The FCC you reference is close to what I consider to be correct. I tend to look for a little more of an orange cast to fresh FCC. That being said, the color in the photo is what I would expect with some exposure to the elements.
As for the blue (mentioned in another posting) in the right hand hopper middle row, that is fairly easy to explain. Look how far down the inside of the car the blue appears. Blue Coal company, (yes it really existed even if the various "Blue Coal" paint schemes are bogus) sprayed their coal with a blue dye after loading in hoppers.


Snip...

Rich Orr
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
Snip...

I would also like the other PRR fanatics here to observe the color of the
interior of the car in the immediate foreground... that's (at least to my eye)
close to what color FCC really was. However, I have to offer a caveat... these
transparencies were originally shot on Kodachrome and Kodachrome tends to be
weak on reds, so the color may well be more intense. But to my eye, it looks
correct, with just enough orange in it to be right. All of the cars in this
photo looked like that when freshly painted, but time, temperature, climate and
environment have wreaked havoc on the base color.
Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ


Bill & Rich,



I have checked the colors on a number of Delano Kodachrome photos. The red is weak - one can push it in photoshop and the blueish tint goes away long before the sky turns magenta. Many of the photos were on sunny days - strong shadows, and the sky isn't too blue, so I do not think blue is the problem.



The best "calibrator" (realizing this is art and not science - please don't flame me) I can find is one of the Delano ore dock photos from the sequence (available at LoC in un-compressed TIFF file formats) that shows a good broadside view of the ore boat. The large red navigation light and the life preservers are noticeable subdued. If one pushes the red to get more reasonable reds and oranges, the hoppers do brighten up, and some of the hoppers remain close to gray - but no blue tint.



The same treatment to the Delano photos from Proviso, especially a just re-painted CNW caboose, provides better reds, but one must be careful not to over-do it. Lighting and time of year seem to be the same. The old Kodachromes were very slow - not exactly cloudy day film.



Bottom line for me is that when a "best guess" color correction is applied, the blueish tints on some of the hoppers go away, but many cars are closer to grey or dark brown than FCC, and there remain a wide range of colors present. YMMV.



Because the white lettering on some of the near-gray cars looks so clean, my guess is that the gray color is not entirely soot, but that possibly car thawing may have been cooking some of the FCC pigment in the paint, darkening the red pigment towards gray/brown.



Dave Evans



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: box car colors

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, SUVCWORR@... wrote:

Bill,

The FCC you reference is close to what I consider to be correct. I tend to look for a little more of an orange cast to fresh FCC. That being said, the color in the photo is what I would expect with some exposure to the elements.

As for the blue (mentioned in another posting) in the right hand hopper middle row, that is fairly easy to explain. Look how far down the inside of the car the blue appears. Blue Coal company, (yes it really existed even if the various "Blue Coal" paint schemes are bogus) sprayed their coal with a blue dye after loading in hoppers.
Snip...

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
Snip...
I would also like the other PRR fanatics here to observe the color of the
interior of the car in the immediate foreground... that's (at least to my eye)
close to what color FCC really was. However, I have to offer a caveat... these
transparencies were originally shot on Kodachrome and Kodachrome tends to be
weak on reds, so the color may well be more intense. But to my eye, it looks
correct, with just enough orange in it to be right. All of the cars in this
photo looked like that when freshly painted, but time, temperature, climate and
environment have wreaked havoc on the base color.

Bill Daniels

Tucson, AZ
Bill & Rich,

I have checked the colors on a number of Delano Kodachrome photos. The red is weak - one can push it in photoshop and the blueish tint goes away long before the sky turns magenta. Many of the photos were on sunny days - strong shadows, and the sky isn't too blue, so I do not think blue is the problem.

The best "calibrator" (realizing this is art and not science - please don't flame me) I can find is one of the Delano ore dock photos from the sequence (available at LoC in un-compressed TIFF file formats) that shows a good broadside view of the ore boat. The large red navigation light and the life preservers are noticeable subdued. If one pushes the red to get more reasonable reds and oranges, the hoppers do brighten up, and some of the hoppers remain close to gray - but no blue tint.

The same treatment to the Delano photos from Proviso, especially a just re-painted CNW caboose, provides better reds, but one must be careful not to over-do it. Lighting and time of year seem to be the same. The old Kodachromes were very slow - not exactly cloudy day film.

Bottom line for me is that when a "best guess" color correction is applied, the blueish tints on some of the hoppers go away, but many cars are closer to grey or dark brown than FCC, and there remain a wide range of colors present. YMMV.

Because the white lettering on some of the near-gray cars looks so clean, my guess is that the gray color is not entirely soot, but that possibly car thawing may have been cooking some of the FCC pigment in the paint, darkening the red pigment towards gray/brown.

Dave Evans


Re: Height of grab irons above running board laterals

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tony, cool, I didn't know that. I've always used a piece of .030 styrene as a spacer for grabs. That works out to 2.6" HO scale...
You're welcome. I use a piece of styrene strip the same way. And BTW, the info is in the "Safety Applicance" pages of every Cyc.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: box car colors

Greg Martin
 

Bill and all.

Don't try to make of this anything more than what it is... A yard full of
very well weathered PRR hoppers. You say, "to observe the color of the
interior of the car in the immediate foreground.. You say, "to observe the
color of the interior of the car in the immediate foreground..<WBR>. that's
(at least to my eye) close to what color FCC real I don't see a freshly out
shopped car in the photo so it is what it is.

Mother Nature has a great eye for color and is really good at weathering
as well. #^)

Greg Martin

In a message dated 12/6/2009 9:04:31 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
billinsf@yahoo.com writes:

I would also like the other PRR fanatics here to observe the color of the
interior of the car in the immediate foreground..I would also like the
other PRR fanatics here to observe the color of the interior of the car in the
immediate foreground..<WBR>. that's (at least to my eye) close to what
color FCC really was. However, I have to offer a caveat... these
transparencies were originally shot on Kodachrome and Kodachrome tends to be weak on
reds, so the color may well be more intense. But to my eye, it looks correct,
with just enough orange in it to be right. All of the cars in th

Bill Daniels


Re: box car colors

SUVCWORR@...
 

Bill,

The FCC you reference is close to what I consider to be correct. I tend to look for a little more of an orange cast to fresh FCC. That being said, the color in the photo is what I would expect with some exposure to the elements.

As for the blue (mentioned in another posting) in the right hand hopper middle row, that is fairly easy to explain. Look how far down the inside of the car the blue appears. Blue Coal company, (yes it really existed even if the various "Blue Coal" paint schemes are bogus) sprayed their coal with a blue dye after loading in hoppers. While this was a subsidiary of the LV IIRC, the so called Anthracite roads frequently absconded with PRR hoppers for loading. The color of the blue and the depth of it on the inside would seem to support this spraying of a load of Blue Coal as the source of the blue coloring. Nevertheless an interesting detail for one or two H21a or GLA PRR hoppers.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Daniels <billinsf@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:04 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: box car colors


Looking at that photo, I would be more tempted to think that the charring of the
end of that particular car was the result of that bane of the industry at the
time... a hotbox. If the car needed thawing (and often they would in the
winter... iron ore was relatively wet when it came out of the ground) the scorch
marks (if any) would be more towards the center of the car.

I would also like the other PRR fanatics here to observe the color of the
interior of the car in the immediate foreground... that's (at least to my eye)
close to what color FCC really was. However, I have to offer a caveat... these
transparencies were originally shot on Kodachrome and Kodachrome tends to be
weak on reds, so the color may well be more intense. But to my eye, it looks
correct, with just enough orange in it to be right. All of the cars in this
photo looked like that when freshly painted, but time, temperature, climate and
environment have wreaked havoc on the base color.

Bill Daniels

Tucson, AZ

--- On Sun, 12/6/09, devansprr <devans1@erols.com> wrote:

From: devansprr <devans1@erols.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: box car colors
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 8:32 AM





















--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, "railwayman" <stevelucas3@ ...> wrote:

This is a personal favourite. Standard Railroad of the World modellers on
this list can opine on standard PRR freight car red, but here's at least nine
PRR hoppers, each of a slightly different hue--

http://www.shorpy. com/node/ 2799?size= _original
One has a lot of leeway in matching STMFC colours.

Steve Lucas.
Group,



The hopper behind the one being loaded has "two" colors on one car, and it
triggered a recollection of a very recent conversation with modern rail car
equipment manufacturers - the heating of hoppers to thaw the load. Even today,
this is an environmental challenge for any electrical equipment that may be
installed on a rail car (ECP braking).



I wonder what an over-aggressive thawing attempt would do to WWII era paints?
Could explain all of the cars that look more like charred grey than FCC.
Especially the "two" color hopper in the photo - perhaps someone was too
aggressive trying to thaw one end?



This would likely be a phenomena unique to hoppers?



Dave Evans





























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Re: Height of grab irons above running board laterals

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony, cool, I didn't know that. I've always used a piece of .030
styrene as a spacer for grabs. That works out to 2.6" HO scale...

Tim O'Connor

At 12/6/2009 05:40 PM Sunday, you wrote:
Mark Heiden wrote:
Does anyone know how high grab irons are mounted above the runing
board laterals on boxcars? Put another way, how much space should
there be between the bottom of the grab iron and the top of the
running board lateral? I did a quick search of the archives but
wasn't able to find this information.
Same as the finger clearance under grab irons: two inches. Two
and a half inches "preferred."

Tony Thompson


Re: Height of grab irons above running board laterals

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mark Heiden wrote:
Does anyone know how high grab irons are mounted above the runing board laterals on boxcars? Put another way, how much space should there be between the bottom of the grab iron and the top of the running board lateral? I did a quick search of the archives but wasn't able to find this information.
Same as the finger clearance under grab irons: two inches. Two and a half inches "preferred."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Height of grab irons above running board laterals

Mark Heiden
 

Hello everyone,

Does anyone know how high grab irons are mounted above the runing board laterals on boxcars? Put another way, how much space should there be between the bottom of the grab iron and the top of the running board lateral? I did a quick search of the archives but wasn't able to find this information.

Thanks,
Mark Heiden


Re: box car colors

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Microscale

SGL

I think someone (Ambroid?) makes a water based liquid mask that
can be brushed on as well, and easily removed after painting w/
an eraser or toothpick.

At 12/6/2009 01:23 PM Sunday, you wrote:
I've done this to decals before applying them and brush on a coat of Microscale's liquid decal
film prior to application.

Jerry Glow







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Re: box car colors

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Yabbut, we're talking iron ore, not coal here.

I suppose the car >could< have been in coal service prior to showing up at Whiskey Island, but the
Blue Coal was a DL&W phenomenon.

SGL

IIRC some coal loads were painted blue at the tipple.

Rod

soolinehistory wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Schuyler Larrabee"
Interesting observations, Dale. The one I find interesting is
the foreground car on which you can read "PENNSYLVANIA." The
blueness and staining of the interior are very interesting and
different from what one would expect without having actually
LOOKED at the prototype.

SGL
Some ores of iron are blue in color. Taconite certainly is, and
some natural ores were, too.

Dennis



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Re: box car colors

Thomas Baker
 

Iron Ore: Well, I had grown up in MInneapolis and never got to Duluth but twice by the time I was eighteen. I was perhaps just nineteen when I drove up to Aitken, Minnesota. I was on the route from Brainerd to Aitken and began to notice that all the houses were maroon. Many cars were rusted out more than usual. This was apparently from the ore dust of nearby mines. That was a surprise, but then I saw what made the trip worth the trouble: Somewhere en route, I encounted a SOO LINE ore train with two FA-1 units spliced by a GP-7 or GP-9. The units were still in the delivery paint scheme of maroon and yellow or cream, a beautiful sight. Unfortunately, it was a business trip, and I had no camera. The year was 1960.

Tom


Re: Conductors Train Book, Traud, Oct. to Dec., 1951

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
Q: didn't the federal government, thru the 1899 bond repayment agreement for the CP construction bonds, continue their mandate that SP had to hand off certain traffic to the UP at Ogden, (perhaps everything that went past Donnor)?
Maybe, but for most of us the operative part is the agreement between UP and SP as part of the settlement of the suit by UP against SP in the 1920s, which resulted in SP's agreement to solicit traffic via UP (and the Ogden gateway) for traffic north of Santa Margarita and Caliente, California. This was submitted to and agreed by the ICC.

I know that in the 50's the Rio Grande tried to talk the ICC into letting it have equal rates to the UP for the OSL
line for such minor items as gravestones but that was rejected as detremental.
I don't know about that, but in the 1960s D&RGW was finally successful in the "Ogden Gateway Case," in obtaining a better share of traffic than the previous microscopic amount. I believe that was an ICC decision (in 1966 IIRC) but don't have the appropriate references handy--and in any case off the end of this list.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: box car colors

Tim O'Connor
 

I think someone (Ambroid?) makes a water based liquid mask that
can be brushed on as well, and easily removed after painting w/
an eraser or toothpick.

At 12/6/2009 01:23 PM Sunday, you wrote:
I've done this to decals before applying them and brush on a coat of Microscale's liquid decal film prior to application.

Jerry Glow


Re: box car colors

Rod Miller
 

IIRC some coal loads were painted blue at the tipple.

Rod

soolinehistory wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee"
Interesting observations, Dale. The one I find interesting is
the foreground car on which you can read "PENNSYLVANIA." The
blueness and staining of the interior are very interesting and
different from what one would expect without having actually
LOOKED at the prototype.
SGL
Some ores of iron are blue in color. Taconite certainly is, and
some natural ores were, too.
Dennis
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