Date   

Re: Coal in the Northwest

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 24, 2009, at 8:03 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Ahem, Richard. Fact checking is in order. Coal was burned in
locomotives in Washington state, on the NP for example. Coal
was used in the production of cement and no doubt for other
purposes as well. And sources included western Canada as well
as Utah, Colorado, Montana, Wyoming and North Dakota.
Ahem, Tim. I have checked the statements in my e-mail.

I wrote:

In the steam era, most of the relatively little coal used in the
Northwest came from southern Utah.
Fact. Take a look, e.g., at the large number of D&RGW and UCR gons
on the Bieber interchange list. Sure, some coal came from other
sources as well. I did not say otherwise.
I wrote:

Nowhere in Oregon was coal mined in commercial quantities.
Fact. There was not a single coal mine in Oregon producing enough
coal to fill even one hopper car.
I wrote:

That's why all the steam locomotives burned oil, and why most
industries were fueled by oil or natural gas.
Fact. I grant that NP steam locos burned lignite (flammable dirt
that only barely qualifies as coal) in extreme eastern Washington.
However, on all of the railroads that served Seattle, Portland,
Vancouver, the Columbia River, and most of the rest of the area,
steam power burned oil.
Note that I my reference was to the Northwest. The Pacific Northwest
consists of Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia. Period. Utah,
Colorado, Montana, and Wyoming are in the Mountain West, not the
Pacific Northwest, as understood by everyone who lives out here. As
for North Dakota, it's separated from eastern Oregon and Washington
by 500 miles of Rocky Mountains and Great Plains, and by many more
miles than that from the major population centers in the Pacific
Northwest. You seem to be afflicted with the kind of geographical
confusion about the Western U.S. that is endemic among those who live
east of the Mississippi (and even more so among those who live east
of the Hudson).

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Tahoe Model Works latest HO 50T truck

Paul Lyons
 

Sorry List, and Mike,

That was suppose to be off list to Andy.

Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: cobrapsl@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, Dec 25, 2009 12:52 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tahoe Model Works latest HO 50T truck





Hi Andy,

I got the "flyer" and my answer from Brian as to the truck prototype. Looks like it was a big replacement truck under SP B-50-15 and 16 boxcars. Since this was a big Sunshine seller, not to mention CIL, there is a real need for these things. Please give a dozen sets, w/o wheels to start. Total with shipping?

Merry Christmas!
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Carlson <midcentury@...>
To: Steam Era <stmfc@...>
Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 8:35 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Tahoe Model Works latest HO 50T truck

I am pleased to be able to offer the latest Tahoe Model Works HO 50 Ton truck. This is arguably the most used of his entire line in the prototype world. This is his 9th offering to date.

I am sure that Brian will make his notice to this list shortly, though I will summarize the users:

1920s to the late 1930s
ATSF B&O CB&Q CNCP CV CoG C&NW C&EI ERIE DL&W GTWIC MP NP RI SL-SF SP T&NO T&P UP and WP. Also PFESFRD

Brian informs me that these trucks were used extensively as replacements for earlier- defect prone trucks such as the PFE's T-section.

Prices from me are $5.25/pair with either code 88 or fat wheels.
Sideframes less wheelsets w/ brake beams are $3.00/pair

I still have a good selection of trucks 001-008 with and w/o wheelsets.

Shipping is based on actual charges. I do accept PayPal, and I still welcome personal checks.As before, I can be contacted off-list (please) at <midcentury@...>
Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
805 646 3334

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Tank Car lettering conventions

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Denny Anspach wrote:
From what I am able to determine, it seemed common- required?- that both reporting marks and car number be repeated on the sides of the center sill, presumably so that if tank and frame were separated, the source of each could still be identified. Capacity and weight the same? What about other data?
As far as I know, Denny, this practice was at the discretion of the owner of the car (I've never seen an MCB or ARA/AAR lettering drawing with tank car center sill lettering). There are certainly a few photos out there of reasonably fresh tank car paint jobs and NO such lettering on center sills, but my impression is that a large majority of owners DID put initials and number on the center sill (and almost always, repack data are there too). But size and location of the lettering varied widely. This is especially evident in the many AC&F builder photos we have. So as with so many things, you need a prototype photo to letter your model correctly. Some owners did letter additional items on the center sill, as I gather you've noticed also.

(There is nothing so very relaxing on a Christmas Day afternoon as a little dose of Prototype Freight car modeling, made especially pleasant by the smells of a prime rib roast in the oven downstairs).
Quite true, though I lean to the situation where that roast is cooking at the house you'll visit later today for dinner, and thus someone ELSE will be doing the heroic mountain of dishes afterward. <g> At our house, the dishwasher is invariably ME.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tank Car lettering conventions

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Friends, would you kindly refer me to a ready source for learning standard tank car lettering conventions? I have studied many tank photos, some of them very nice high resolution, and either my eyes or the pixelated nature of the photos have prevented me from actually reading much of the lettering, or enough to determine patterns.

From what I am able to determine, it seemed common- required?- that both reporting marks and car number be repeated on the sides of the center sill, presumably so that if tank and frame were separated, the source of each could still be identified. Capacity and weight the same? What about other data?

Sometimes the decals provide the clues, but in instances presently at hand, no such clues are available (in one instance, the fine white lettering cannot be read against the light blue background decal paper!) .

Any suggestions, help would be much appreciated.

(There is nothing so very relaxing on a Christmas Day afternoon as a little dose of Prototype Freight car modeling, made especially pleasant by the smells of a prime rib roast in the oven downstairs).


Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Tahoe Model Works latest HO 50T truck

Paul Lyons
 

Hi Andy,

I got the "flyer" and my answer from Brian as to the truck prototype. Looks like it was a big replacement truck under SP B-50-15 and 16 boxcars. Since this was a big Sunshine seller, not to mention CIL, there is a real need for these things. Please give a dozen sets, w/o wheels to start. Total with shipping?

Merry Christmas!
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Carlson <midcentury@...>
To: Steam Era <stmfc@...>
Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 8:35 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Tahoe Model Works latest HO 50T truck




I am pleased to be able to offer the latest Tahoe Model Works HO 50 Ton truck. This is arguably the most used of his entire line in the prototype world. This is his 9th offering to date.

I am sure that Brian will make his notice to this list shortly, though I will summarize the users:

1920s to the late 1930s
ATSF B&O CB&Q CNCP CV CoG C&NW C&EI ERIE DL&W GTWIC MP NP RI SL-SF SP T&NO T&P UP and WP. Also PFESFRD

Brian informs me that these trucks were used extensively as replacements for earlier- defect prone trucks such as the PFE's T-section.

Prices from me are $5.25/pair with either code 88 or fat wheels.
Sideframes less wheelsets w/ brake beams are $3.00/pair

I still have a good selection of trucks 001-008 with and w/o wheelsets.

Shipping is based on actual charges. I do accept PayPal, and I still welcome personal checks.As before, I can be contacted off-list (please) at <midcentury@...>
Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
805 646 3334









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Brake fluid warning (NOT!)

cinderandeight@...
 

Tim,
I agree, brake fluid isn't particularly volatile, but it can boil.
Driving down a steep mountain and braking too hard can fill one's brakes
lines with vaporized brake fluid and lead to brake failure.
Brake fluid is also flamable. Probably not real easy to ignite in
normal circumstances, but once while working on a GM assembly line I hooked up
a car battery, only to find the positive cable was laying loose on the
brake lines. It cut through them as easy as soft butter and the fluid hit the
white hot sparks and all but blew up in my face. We had to shut the line
down and evacuate the area because of the cloud of smoke it put out. So
take care is you use it near flames (like one of those little butane torches).
Rich Burg


Re: Prototype Rails 2010 Clinic Schedule

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

That was my understanding from the start. It is worth pursuing, assuming that it would be possible to just put a "X" image in the place of such material or a link to where it can be found.

Military stuff is so much easier, with all the period items either uncopyrighted or the forfeited proprty of a criminal organization . . .

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

Rich Orr wrote:
This is a great idea and I would certainly purchase at least one
copy. The problem which may be the largest is the presenters own
the copyrights to the powerpoint presentations and the handouts.
They would each need to assign publication rights to Mike.
Rich is right, though generally presenters would be likely to
do this happily. A more serious problem is photos, maps, and other
graphics which are in handouts and presentations, legitimately as
"fair use" in a presentation and associated materials, but NOT in
multiple copies as a "publication." I know the distinction seems
picky, but it's exactly the distinction in the copyright law. This is
especially true for copies of Powerpoint presentations collected as
electronic copies, for example on a CD, but would also apply to
copyrighted elements on a printed handout. Such a handout has to be
restricted to the venue of the talk itself to remain "fair use,"


Re: Prototype Rails 2010 Clinic Schedule

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rich Orr wrote:
This is a great idea and I would certainly purchase at least one copy. The problem which may be the largest is the presenters own the copyrights to the powerpoint presentations and the handouts. They would each need to assign publication rights to Mike.
Rich is right, though generally presenters would be likely to do this happily. A more serious problem is photos, maps, and other graphics which are in handouts and presentations, legitimately as "fair use" in a presentation and associated materials, but NOT in multiple copies as a "publication." I know the distinction seems picky, but it's exactly the distinction in the copyright law. This is especially true for copies of Powerpoint presentations collected as electronic copies, for example on a CD, but would also apply to copyrighted elements on a printed handout. Such a handout has to be restricted to the venue of the talk itself to remain "fair use,"

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Prototype Rails 2010 Clinic Schedule

SUVCWORR@...
 

Kurt,

This is a great idea and I would certainly purchase at least one copy. The problem which may be the largest is the presenters own the copyrights to the powerpoint presentations and the handouts. They would each need to assign publication rights to Mike.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, Dec 25, 2009 12:17 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Prototype Rails 2010 Clinic Schedule


Mike, have you considered compiling the the handouts and selling (to cover
costs) this as a book for those of us who can't get there, like they do with
the papers at a technical conference? It wouldn't need to be fancy or
reformatted, just the papers or powerpoints as presented in a packet.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Brock

And now...here's the address of the latest and probably final Rev Prototype
Rails Clinic Schedule:

http://prototyperails.com/PrailsClinicSchedule2010.html




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Archer rivet decals...

Bruce Smith
 

Steve,

I have had success applying them directly to both resin and plastic, w/o
paint. I have used Solvaset to settle them on those substrates. I do
suspect that a coating of paint may helpn if you are at all concerned,
as part of the settling/adhesion issues involve some dissolving of
paint, but to date I have not felt the need.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

"railwayman" <stevelucas3@...> 12/25/09 10:04 AM >>>
Here's hoping that "Santa" was good to everyone here. He was good to
me, with a trip in the offing to my favourite LHS with that gift
certificate my wife gave me.

But I also received some Archer rivet decals yesterday. Now a question
as to how to best use them on a resin kit.

I'm working on a kit cast using a tan resin--Alumilite, perhaps? Can I
apply the decals directly to the kit parts, or is it better to prime or
gloss paint the parts first?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Archer rivet decals...

railwayman <stevelucas3@...>
 

Mike and Bruce--

Thanks for your very quick replies. I'm working on a NorWest kit
for a CPR 2200-series streamlined coach. The carbody uses rabetted joints, making a strong assembly. But one set of rivets on the blind end of the car is near a joint line, thus I sanded this rivet row off rather than go through the torment of trying to make a smooth joint AND preserve that rivet row.

These cars had a distinctive curved UK-style "tumblehome" or "fishbellied" side profile. So the sides and ends are not straight vertically, but curved above and below the side window line. And one rivet row follows this curve. A challenge that would take some math and no small amount of mechanical work on my NWSL Riveter. Instead, this curved rivet row will be easily replicated by curving the Archer decal rivet strip during application.

So these Archer rivets are very useful. Mike cites the example of applying them to a painted water tank. We can use these for ready-built equipment and structures such as this water tank, rather than re-kitting the model and making new parts.

I have (disclosure--mandatory STMFC content follows) a Kaslo CN 40' steel-frame panel boxcar kit that will get the diagonal panel roof and 4-board running board that it received in its 1949 rebuilding at CC&F. The roof received a row of rivets on top of it, near the side. Another challenge using the Riveter, but so easy with a diagonal-panel roof and Archer rivet strips.

I also have a Red Caboose double-door car that will receive the alternate-centre rivets using the Archer set in a double-row configuration along the rivet row at the side panel lines. Along with a few other changes like a side extension and a Hutchins roof for these CN 1936-built, 1940's re-built auto box cars. I want this car!

http://imagescn.technomuses.ca/railways/index_view.cfm?photoid=-135752854&id=55

But I very respectfully disagree with some who feel these the only modelling device to use for rivets. That CPR coach has a rivet row on the underside of the sides, about .040" wide on the model. I would likely find myself committed to an institution (can I pick the "Bud Light Institute", please? :) Note-NOT mandatory STMFC content)

http://www.videosift.com/video/Keeping-wives-busy-since-1922-Bud-Light-Institute

if I were to try this with the Archer rivets. But a few minutes' work on the Riveter produced overwidth .005 styrene rivet strips that were easy to apply to the bottoms of the sides. The rivetted part is applied to the bottom of the sides, and then the strips are trimmed afterward.

I consider the Archer decals and Riveter complemetary techniques. One will always be able to make rivet spacings not available in Archer rivet strips.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas writes:

I'm working on a kit cast using a tan resin--Alumilite, perhaps? Can I
apply the decals directly to the kit parts, or is it better to prime or
gloss paint the parts first?
I have applied Archer rivets directly on unpainted plastic..the new top of
the oil bunker on the Athearn UP FEF-3 making it a...well...steam era FEF-3.
I have just completed putting Archer rivets on a painted 200,000 gal water
tank. Now...that is worth commenting on. The tank has upright double rows of
rivets...I used those designed for tank cars. These rivet strips are about
an inch long. It also has longitudinal single rows of rivets [ parallel to
the ground ]. I had a great deal of trouble getting the longititudinal [ L ]
rows to lie in a straight line. Part of this was because, since the painted
tank was black, the rivets disappeared, particularly with water applied. To
move them required water. Too much water and they disappeared. The upright
double row...yes, they were shorter which helped...was much easier to keep
straight. It appeared that the wider decal strip of the double row seemed to
help keep it straight. Therefore, I took the unusual step of cutting the
single row along one side of the rivets [ I wanted to place it along a
parallel tank seam ] and cutting the other side so as to have as wide a
strip as possible with only one row of rivets. This did seem to work.

I would also note that in a couple of cases, I managed to get a rivet or 2
on the tank where I didn't want it. I had to really work to scrape it off.

Anyhow, I will be doing a clinic on building this tank...plus the
rivets...at some point during Prototype Rails. It will be placed on the
bulletin board because we have some additional clinic room times that will
probably be available but I don't know when yet.

Mike Brock


Re: Prototype Rails 2010 Clinic Schedule

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Mike, have you considered compiling the the handouts and selling (to cover costs) this as a book for those of us who can't get there, like they do with the papers at a technical conference? It wouldn't need to be fancy or reformatted, just the papers or powerpoints as presented in a packet.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Brock

And now...here's the address of the latest and probably final Rev Prototype
Rails Clinic Schedule:

http://prototyperails.com/PrailsClinicSchedule2010.html


Re: Thanks and Merry Christmas

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Mike, it is we who owe you the deep gratitude for managing this list. You do know how to do this,
how to step in (and step on some toes) when the situation warrants. Much appreciation and may you
have the best of holidays.

SGL

I suppose...since I am the head judge and am somewhat responsible for the
formation of the STMFC...[ it would not have, however, occurred without the
consent of the 30 or so original members...plus Richard's immortal words
describing certain unnamed modelers who apparently had little interest in
modeling accuracy..."...those bozos"...] anyhow, while it is not Jan 1 and a
new year, at which time people frequently summarize the preceding year, and
since at that time I no doubt will be less than coherent...no, no...due to
the effort to bring about another Prototype Rails at Cocoa Beach...I will
take this opportunity to thank all who have and continue to make the STMFC a
useful and pleasant way to discuss and learn about steam era freight cars
and our little gems that model them. Furthermore...I will take this
opportunity to wish everyone a Merry Christmas...and Happy any other day
they wish to honor.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner




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Prototype Rails 2010 Clinic Schedule

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

And now...here's the address of the latest and probably final Rev Prototype Rails Clinic Schedule:

http://prototyperails.com/PrailsClinicSchedule2010.html

Mike Brock


Re: Archer rivet decals...

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Steve Lucas writes:

I'm working on a kit cast using a tan resin--Alumilite, perhaps? Can I apply the decals directly to the kit parts, or is it better to prime or gloss paint the parts first?
I have applied Archer rivets directly on unpainted plastic..the new top of the oil bunker on the Athearn UP FEF-3 making it a...well...steam era FEF-3. I have just completed putting Archer rivets on a painted 200,000 gal water tank. Now...that is worth commenting on. The tank has upright double rows of rivets...I used those designed for tank cars. These rivet strips are about an inch long. It also has longitudinal single rows of rivets [ parallel to the ground ]. I had a great deal of trouble getting the longititudinal [ L ] rows to lie in a straight line. Part of this was because, since the painted tank was black, the rivets disappeared, particularly with water applied. To move them required water. Too much water and they disappeared. The upright double row...yes, they were shorter which helped...was much easier to keep straight. It appeared that the wider decal strip of the double row seemed to help keep it straight. Therefore, I took the unusual step of cutting the single row along one side of the rivets [ I wanted to place it along a parallel tank seam ] and cutting the other side so as to have as wide a strip as possible with only one row of rivets. This did seem to work.

I would also note that in a couple of cases, I managed to get a rivet or 2 on the tank where I didn't want it. I had to really work to scrape it off.

Anyhow, I will be doing a clinic on building this tank...plus the rivets...at some point during Prototype Rails. It will be placed on the bulletin board because we have some additional clinic room times that will probably be available but I don't know when yet.

Mike Brock


Thanks and Merry Christmas

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

I suppose...since I am the head judge and am somewhat responsible for the formation of the STMFC...[ it would not have, however, occurred without the consent of the 30 or so original members...plus Richard's immortal words desribing certain unamed modelers who apparently had little interest in modeling accuracy..."...those bozos"...] anyhow, while it is not Jan 1 and a new year, at which time people frequently summarize the preceding year, and since at that time I no doubt will be less than coherent...no, no...due to the effort to bring about another Prototype Rails at Cocoa Beach...I will take this opportunity to thank all who have and continue to make the STMFC a useful and pleasant way to discuss and learn about steam era freight cars and our little gems that model them. Furthermore...I will take this opportunity to wish everyone a Merry Christmas...and Happy any other day they wish to honor.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Archer rivet decals...

railwayman <stevelucas3@...>
 

Here's hoping that "Santa" was good to everyone here. He was good to me, with a trip in the offing to my favourite LHS with that gift certificate my wife gave me.

But I also received some Archer rivet decals yesterday. Now a question as to how to best use them on a resin kit.

I'm working on a kit cast using a tan resin--Alumilite, perhaps? Can I apply the decals directly to the kit parts, or is it better to prime or gloss paint the parts first?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.


Re: Coil-Elliptic Trucks

acacd_ssp
 

________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, December 24, 2009 9:35:30 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Coil-Elliptic Trucks

 

Richard, the DT&I gondolas were 70 ton correct? Brian's only done
50 ton trucks thus far...

Tim O'Connor

Here are a couple more, Brian. I know because I just put your trucks
on models of these.

John R. Grace & Co GRYX 657 AC&F Type 27 8.000 gal. tank car built
1937. Sorry, I don't have a number series for these (in the ORERs
they're lumped into a series of several hundred cars). All I have
is an in-service photo.

Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DT&I 9000-9099, 52'6" Greenville drop end
mill gondolas (most equipped after WW II with rack for auto frame
loading).

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Build date of NP 39487?

Tim O'Connor
 

Ahem, Richard. Fact checking is in order. Coal was burned in
locomotives in Washington state, on the NP for example. Coal
was used in the production of cement and no doubt for other
purposes as well. And sources included western Canada as well
as Utah, Colorado, Montana, Wyoming and North Dakota.

And I have seen an N&W open hopper in a video of the Milwaukee
Road in Montana.

Happy Christmas to all!

Tim O'Connor

Oregon coal? Surely you jest. In the steam era, most of the
relatively little coal used in the Northwest came from southern
Utah. Nowhere in Oregon was coal mined in commercial quantities.
That's why all the steam locomotives burned oil, and why most
industries were fueled by oil or natural gas. Coal was, of course,
mined in Wyoming, mostly in mines owned by the Union Pacific
Railroad, but in nowhere near the quantity that it now is. Union
Pacific coal traveled east over Sherman Hill, mostly in UP hoppers
and gondolas (mandatory STMFC freight car content).

To all STMFC listers, may your holiday season be merry and bright!

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Build date of NP 39487?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 24, 2009, at 5:13 PM, al_brown03 wrote:

The N&W hoppers that went over Sherman Hill were back-loaded with
Oregon coal, right? :-)
Oregon coal? Surely you jest. In the steam era, most of the
relatively little coal used in the Northwest came from southern
Utah. Nowhere in Oregon was coal mined in commercial quantities.
That's why all the steam locomotives burned oil, and why most
industries were fueled by oil or natural gas. Coal was, of course,
mined in Wyoming, mostly in mines owned by the Union Pacific
Railroad, but in nowhere near the quantity that it now is. Union
Pacific coal traveled east over Sherman Hill, mostly in UP hoppers
and gondolas (mandatory STMFC freight car content).

To all STMFC listers, may your holiday season be merry and bright!


Richard Hendrickson

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