Date   

Re: Mexlist

mrcustom@...
 

Yes, a very good source of info.
And if you want more info , you can contact John Kirchner in Passadena,CA.
He is an expert in N de M .

Right now he is in Japan chasing trains but will be back in two weeks.

His e-mail address , jkirchn@earthlink.com

regards

Marcelo

Was surfing the net and came across this informative page
about modeling Mexican freight cars and some American cars
that I guess would be visitors to Mexico...

http://www.mexlist.com/40foot/Summary.htm

Tim O'Connor


Re: Coal in the Northwest

martincooper@...
 

Good morning group: As we flit away from freight cars a last (hopefully) note. Tim is almost correct re: GN steam engines being oil fired in the west in late steam era. For some reason the King Street Station authority demanded the use of coal fired steam switchers. A photo of a coal fired GN 0-6-0 in Seattle  can be seen in th Keyes collection on the joint NP-GN archive. Marty Cooper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:38:08 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Coal in the Northwest

 




Richard Hendrickson wrote

I am frankly puzzled at the uproar my remarks generated; aside from
the NP's use of coal, nothing that has been posted on the subject
invalidates my original premise that coal was neither mined nor used
in significant quantities in Oregon, nor was it a major railroad or
industrial fuel anywhere else in the Pacific Northwest.
Richard

Words like "significant" and "major" are pretty slippery. It's hard
to argue (or really understand) what "most" means with regard to GN
locomotives for example. I'll agree I haven't seen pictures of GN coal
fired locos west of Spokane from the 1940's to the end of GN steam.
You made a statement that GN passenger power was "mostly" oil fired
but I can easily find photos of coal fired P-2's up to the end of
GN steam -- but not in Washington. And it is documented that one of
GN's coal sources [in this era] was Fermie, British Columbia. (Your
original email included BC in the Pacific Northwest.) So it's kinda
confusing to me when some things you say are clearly accurate and others
just seem like broad generalizations that aren't so accurate.

So what's behind the aggressive efforts to make coal appear more important
as a locomotive and industrial fuel in the Pacific Northwest than it was?
I don't get it.
Richard, that's not the case. You made statements that over-generalized
and a few people commented on it. Not hard to understand at all really.
I was not being aggressive (at least I didn't mean to be) and it didn't
seem like Jerry or anyone was either.

Besides, your railroad batting average is about .999 so don't feel bad.
Let us benchwarmers blow off some steam now and then...

Tim O'Connor

P.S. A nice photo of the coal-gas works in Seattle, which operated until 1956.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Gas_Works_Park-2.jpg/800px-Gas_Works_Park-2.jpg


Re: Coal in the Northwest

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote

I am frankly puzzled at the uproar my remarks generated; aside from
the NP's use of coal, nothing that has been posted on the subject
invalidates my original premise that coal was neither mined nor used
in significant quantities in Oregon, nor was it a major railroad or
industrial fuel anywhere else in the Pacific Northwest.
Richard

Words like "significant" and "major" are pretty slippery. It's hard
to argue (or really understand) what "most" means with regard to GN
locomotives for example. I'll agree I haven't seen pictures of GN coal
fired locos west of Spokane from the 1940's to the end of GN steam.
You made a statement that GN passenger power was "mostly" oil fired
but I can easily find photos of coal fired P-2's up to the end of
GN steam -- but not in Washington. And it is documented that one of
GN's coal sources [in this era] was Fermie, British Columbia. (Your
original email included BC in the Pacific Northwest.) So it's kinda
confusing to me when some things you say are clearly accurate and others
just seem like broad generalizations that aren't so accurate.

So what's behind the aggressive efforts to make coal appear more important
as a locomotive and industrial fuel in the Pacific Northwest than it was?
I don't get it.
Richard, that's not the case. You made statements that over-generalized
and a few people commented on it. Not hard to understand at all really.
I was not being aggressive (at least I didn't mean to be) and it didn't
seem like Jerry or anyone was either.

Besides, your railroad batting average is about .999 so don't feel bad.
Let us benchwarmers blow off some steam now and then...

Tim O'Connor

P.S. A nice photo of the coal-gas works in Seattle, which operated until 1956.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Gas_Works_Park-2.jpg/800px-Gas_Works_Park-2.jpg


Re: Coal in the Northwest

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Allen Rueter wrote:
When I look at the list I see :
FALLS OF CLYDE
MARION CHILCOTT
RODERICK DHU
ROSECRANS
SANTIAGO
You're right. Obviously I didn't read the entirety of all entries <g>. You will have noted that Associated did not seem to get many good deals from Matson, as few of the ships lasted many years.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Coal in the Pacific Northwest/Pacific Coast

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Phillips, III, J.A. wrote:
As for Andy Carlson's comment about the "Real" PC, yeah, well, same company owned both the California and Washington operations at one time. Back in the day the Washington PC was part of Henry Villard's Oregon Improvement Company and operated as the Columbia and Puget Sound. Apparently the Californians were the ones who stuck the misnomer "Pacific Coast" on it.
When the Oregon Improvement Co. emerged from bankruptcy in 1897, it was in the form of a sale under foreclosure to a New Jersey concern organized for the purpose, called the Pacific Coast Company. It was thereafter headquartered in Seattle, so I doubt it was run by too many Californians. At that time, the only two properties owned by Oregon Improvement with a "Pacific Coast" name were the Pacific Coast Railway (the central California railroad) and the Pacific Coast Steamship Company, original owner of the California railroad prior to Villard. The steamship company, organized in 1876, was well named, and provided services along the entire coast from southern California to Victoria, BC.
This is all in Gerry Best's book, including the fact that the Washington state railroad did not acquire the name "Pacific Coast" until 1916, long after Henry Villard and long after any California ownership existed in either railroad.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Mexlist

Tim O'Connor
 

Was surfing the net and came across this informative page
about modeling Mexican freight cars and some American cars
that I guess would be visitors to Mexico...

http://www.mexlist.com/40foot/Summary.htm

Tim O'Connor


Re: Coal in the Pacific Northwest/Pacific Coast

J.A. Phillips
 

Steve Hedlund wrote: Speaking of coal in the Pacific Northwest, you have to include the "real" Pacific Coast Railroad up in the Puget Sound area. It's biggest business was hauling coal from its mines, such as at Black Diamond and Newcastle, into Seattle. From there it would either distribute to the local coal dealers or onto its huge coal pier in downtown Seattle to provide fuel for the many ships that docked in Seattle. I've seen some old pictures (copyrighted ones so I can't share) of the Seattle coal pier and it is pretty impressive.

The University of Washington Library Web site has many photos of the coal docks in Seattle. They weren't nearly as extensive as the NP's coal docks in Tacoma. The NP ran out into Pierce County to the McKay seam ca 1877, most of the coal they hauled to tidewater went into ships bound for California and the CP.

... Its my understanding that all of its branches, such as the Kummer Branch, served coal mines, except maybe for the Lake Washington Branch.

I believe Newcastle was reached by the PC's Lake Washington Branch, which meant more coal. Before the built down and around through Renton they crossed the lake with a barge operation, one of which sank in a storm, cars, locomotive and all.

...What was really neat about the PCRR was that it shared electrified trackage with the Milwaukee Road from Maple Valley onward. Not really sure how far toward Seattle it was like that. Anyone else can elaborate on that?...

The Milwaukee came down off the hill and leased trackage rights; I believe they got off the PC and back onto their own rails at Renton/Black River. However, the PC ran right up into south Seattle and the MILW may have continued all the way on PC rails. In the early 1950s the GN's VP Balmer in Seattle stole a march on the MILW and bought the PC outright. The GN was a lot more interested in its industrial property in south Seattle than what little coal it was moving by that time. For exact details, as Dave Sprau on the NPTellTale. He's dispatched the thing.

As for Andy Carlson's comment about the "Real" PC, yeah, well, same company owned both the California and Washington operations at one time. Back in the day the Washington PC was part of Henry Villard's Oregon Improvement Company and operated as the Columbia and Puget Sound. Apparently the Californians were the ones who stuck the misnomer "Pacific Coast" on it.



73 JP3 | http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/NPTellTale/


Re: Coal in the Northwest

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 26, 2009, at 6:34 PM, Phillips, III, J.A. wrote:

Richard Hendrickson ...Fact. I grant that NP steam locos burned
lignite (flammable dirt that only barely qualifies as coal) in
extreme eastern Washington. However, on all of the railroads that
served Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, the Columbia River, and most
of the rest of the area, steam power burned oil.
Okay, those who know much more about the NP than I do have convinced
me that the NP was an exception, and that NP steam power was largely
coal burning, even on the extreme western end of the system.

....The GN burned coal and oil, off and on, depending upon fuel
prices.
I'm not buying this for the period we're discussing here, the late
steam/early diesel era. GN's big passenger power was mostly oil-
fired system-wide, and I can't recall seeing any photos of coal-fired
locomotives anywhere in Washington state during or after World War
II. Certainly all of the motive power that ran down through Oregon
into California burned oil. As for other major railroads in the
area, SP, UP, SP&S, MILW, CN, and CP all ran their steam mostly or
entirely with oil fuel.

There were also numerous small mines in King (Seattle) and Pierce
(Tacoma) counties.... Further mines were located to the south
around Centralia....
I never claimed otherwise. What I did claim is that commercially
significant coal mines didn't exist in Oregon. And I will add that,
though some coal was obviously mined in Washington state, it didn't
amount to much. The Pacific Coast railway as a major coal hauler?
Give me, as we say, a break.

I am frankly puzzled at the uproar my remarks generated; aside from
the NP's use of coal, nothing that has been posted on the subject
invalidates my original premise that coal was neither mined nor used
in significant quantities in Oregon, nor was it a major railroad or
industrial fuel anywhere else in the Pacific Northwest. I can't
imagine why that premise should have prompted such a heated
response. After all, where oil was readily available at reasonable
cost, it was almost universally recognized as a better fuel for steam
locomotives in almost all respects, and especially better than the
cheap coal most railroads bought for locomotive fuel. So what's
behind the aggressive efforts to make coal appear more important as a
locomotive and industrial fuel in the Pacific Northwest than it was?
I don't get it.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Coal in the Northwest

Allen Rueter
 

Tony,
When I look at the list I see :
FALLS OF CLYDE
MARION CHILCOTT
RODERICK DHU
ROSECRANS
SANTIAGO


--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO




________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, December 26, 2009 6:05:10 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal in the Northwest


Allen Rueter wrote:
Looks like Associated Oil bought several tankers in the 190x
http://www.usmm. org/matson. html,
Other Associated histories list a couple of ships. This entire
Matson list shows only one ship (that I found) sold to Associated in
1910. Like most oil companies, Associated moved its crude by pipeline,
and refined products were shipped in pipelines, by coastwise ship, and
by rail. In that era, Associated maintained a fleet of around 400 tank
cars, and there were some interesting exchanges of cars between the
Associated fleet and the SP fleet.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Coal in the Northwest

J.A. Phillips
 

Richard Hendrickson ...Fact. I grant that NP steam locos burned lignite (flammable dirt that only barely qualifies as coal) in extreme eastern Washington. However, on all of the railroads that served Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, the Columbia River, and most of the rest of the area, steam power burned oil.

That fact needs some serious fact checking! The GN burned coal and oil, off and on, depending upon fuel prices. The NP tended towards coal almost exclusively (not coal docks at Seattle, Lester, Centralia, Tacoma, etc.). When you see oil burning NP locomotives in Portland it is due to local municipal ordinances. The NP's western Washington Tacoma Division was fueled almost exclusively from company-owned mines at Cle Elum which opened in 1886 and were later spun off in the middle 1950s as the NP reached near complete dieselization. There were also numerous small mines in King (Seattle) and Pierce (Tacoma) counties, the earliest of which were tapped by the NP circa 1877. Further mines were located to the south around Centralia. Oil was definitely a minority fuel source on the NP in western Washington. Until Colstrip opened up in the 1920s the NP coal sources in Montana included places like Bear Creek and Red Lodge. Mr. Stewart's post was very accurate, with the NP's coal supply districts closely following its pre-Great Depression management territories (west, central, east).


Re: Coal in the Northwest

Andy Carlson
 

I don't wish to look like a fireman swatting at every ember he sees, but I have to respond to this....

By quoting "real", it is assumed you meen to differentiate this RR from a pretender "Pacific Coast" railroad.

In this instance, your "Pacific Coast" is the pretender- plus it didn't even have a connection with the Pacific Ocean. The real Pacific Coast Railway was older (back to the 1860's), and had piers OVER the Pacific Ocean and therefore moved a lot of Pacific Steamship freight. Both of the "Pacific Coasts" were owned by the same Steamship Company, and may be the reason a more imaginative name couldn't have been used for the 2nd PC.

If you are wondering where this "true" Pacific Coast road was, it served the 2 piers of Avila Beach, CA., and ran through San Luis Obispo to its end in obscurity (Los Olivos, CA.) It was 3' narrow gauge, and beat by decades the Southern Pacific to SLO, and had the temerity to insist that the SP build and man the interlocking tower at Hadley crossing. I belive that this was the only narrow gauge RR in California with semaphore signals, and may have been the only 3' gauge RR with an electric interurban line. Our frequent content provider from Signature Press has a volume about the Steamship company and the two RR's authored by Jerry Best, a very good book.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- On Sat, 12/26/09, S hed <shed999@hotmail.com> wrote:


Speaking of coal in the Pacific Northwest, you have to
include the "real" Pacific Coast Railroad up in the Puget
Sound area.


Re: Coal in the Northwest

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Allen Rueter wrote:
Looks like Associated Oil bought several tankers in the 190x
http://www.usmm.org/matson.html,
Other Associated histories list a couple of ships. This entire Matson list shows only one ship (that I found) sold to Associated in 1910. Like most oil companies, Associated moved its crude by pipeline, and refined products were shipped in pipelines, by coastwise ship, and by rail. In that era, Associated maintained a fleet of around 400 tank cars, and there were some interesting exchanges of cars between the Associated fleet and the SP fleet.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Coal in the Northwest

S hed <shed999@...>
 

Speaking of coal in the Pacific Northwest, you have to include the "real" Pacific Coast Railroad up in the Puget Sound area. It's biggest business was hauling coal from its mines, such as at Black Diamond and Newcastle, into Seattle. From there it would either distribute to the local coal dealers or onto its huge coal pier in downtown Seattle to provide fuel for the many ships that docked in Seattle. I've seen some old pictures (copyrighted ones so I can't share) of the Seattle coal pier and it is pretty impressive.



I'm attaching its 1930 ORER listing of the PCRR which has a great map of its route. Its my understanding that all of its branches, such as the Kummer Branch, served coal mines, except maybe for the Lake Washington Branch.



What was really neat about the PCRR was that it shared electrified trackage with the Milwaukee Road from Maple Valley onward. Not really sure how far toward Seattle it was like that. Anyone else can elaborate on that?



- Steve Hedlund, Silver Lake, WA



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
From: schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:07:13 -0500
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Coal in the Northwest





Thanks, Tony, I was under the impression the official name had been changed.

SGL

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Because there is a reason that Case Western Reserve University (now
shortened to "Case University) . . .
Not except as slang. It's like saying Boston College is "now
shortened to BC." The official name is still Case Western Reserve
University.

Tony
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_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
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Re: Coal in the Northwest

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Thanks, Tony, I was under the impression the official name had been changed.

SGL

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Because there is a reason that Case Western Reserve University (now
shortened to "Case University) . . .
Not except as slang. It's like saying Boston College is "now
shortened to BC." The official name is still Case Western Reserve
University.

Tony





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Database version: 6.13990
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Re: Single-sheathed box car underframes

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
If box cars with exposed side trusses are correctly called single- sheathed (or incorrectly but descriptively called outside-braced) why don't we have "single-sheathed" gondolas? ;-)
It took years for realization to set in that the fishbelly center sill on box cars was not doing a great deal. In the first decade of the 20th century, technical papers in Railway Age showed that even a wood superstructure truss provided significant stiffness and thus that the underframe did not have to do EVERYTHING. The ARA standard underframe with straight center sill members emerged in 1921, but some conservative mechanical officers continued for years to specify fishbelly center sills on house cars. I'd say it's yet another example of the reluctance to give up familiar technology among railroaders.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Single-sheathed box car underframes

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

If box cars with exposed side trusses are correctly called single-sheathed (or incorrectly but descriptively called outside-braced) why don't we have "single-sheathed" gondolas? ;-)
Because there were never and "double sheathed" gondolas, therefore no need to differentiate.


Seriously, as a generalization, shouldn't single-sheathed box cars, assuming that the cars in question have a steel underframe and steel side trusses, have a straight center sill?

No doubt there are examples of "fish-belly" center sills under single-sheathed box cars but would that be typical.
Fishbelly center sills were more common on single sheathed boxcars than one would think. CN had a sizable fleet, as did the Soo Line. The change to lining only "single sheathed" construction came about several years before the unrelated fishbelly / straight sill issue was sorted out, and during that interval, single sheathed cars were built with both.

Dennis


Re: Single-sheathed box car underframes

Tim O'Connor
 

Gene, I always thought the usage reflected the idea that house
cars can have an outer wall and an inner wall (or lining) which
we call "double sheathed" but other house cars have only a single
wall. By the way this remains true in the steel box car era but
we refer to "double sheathed" steel box cars as "smooth sided"
vs "exterior post" or "outside ribbed". In the modern era there
are even "double sheathed" vs "single sheathed" plug doors.

I can't think of any examples of double-sheathed gondolas, so
there's really no point in describing them in terms of their
sheathed-ness.

And it has nothing to do with the center sill AFAIK.

Tim O'Connor

If box cars with exposed side trusses are correctly called single-sheathed (or incorrectly but descriptively called outside-braced) why don't we have "single-sheathed" gondolas? ;-)

Seriously, as a generalization, shouldn't single-sheathed box cars, assuming that the cars in question have a steel underframe and steel side trusses, have a straight center sill?

No doubt there are examples of "fish-belly" center sills under single-sheathed box cars but would that be typical.

Gene Green


Re: Coal in the Northwest

Allen Rueter
 

Tim,
Looks like Associated Oil bought several tankers in the 190x
http://www.usmm.org/matson.html, hmmm loosing freight car content better shut up.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO




________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, December 26, 2009 2:10:21 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Coal in the Northwest


Allen

There was always substantial coastal shipping between
California and Oregon/Washington, and once dams and locks
were installed on the Columbia, there was a substantial
amount of inland waterborne freight traffic too. My guess
is that oil came from California in coastal tankers for the
most part.

Tim O'Connor

The SP&S signed a contract in Sep 1910 with Associated Oil for 3 years that made it cheaper than
coal - "The North Bank Road" by Gaertner, which got it out on NP Roslyn Coal, It took a year
to convert, they bought 20 tanks cars for the SP&S and 10 for the OT.

Where did the oil come from?
--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Single-sheathed box car underframes

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

If box cars with exposed side trusses are correctly called single-sheathed (or incorrectly but descriptively called outside-braced) why don't we have "single-sheathed" gondolas? ;-)

Seriously, as a generalization, shouldn't single-sheathed box cars, assuming that the cars in question have a steel underframe and steel side trusses, have a straight center sill?

No doubt there are examples of "fish-belly" center sills under single-sheathed box cars but would that be typical.

Gene Green


Re: Oregon coal...?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 26, 2009, at 12:30 AM, leakinmywaders wrote:

Hi Richard, I don't want to sound like I am jumping on the pile here, but I was wondering when you said "nowhere in Oregon was coal mined in commercial quantities" whether you meant to bracket that to a specific time frame.
Yes, the time frame is that of the late steam/early diesel era, as I think I specified somewhere. And the Coos Bay mines (of which I was already aware) hardly produced enough coal to qualify as a "commercial quantity."

102301 - 102320 of 189741