Date   

Re: Styron

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Dennis;

The only resin operation I was familiar with was the old Pennsylvania
Industrial Chemical Corp that was taken over in the mid-70's by Hercules.
They made PICCOLASTIC among others, lots of it used in the rubber and
plastics industry, among what I understand were literally hundreds of varied
end users... I would love to know more about how the
industry, and they in particular, got and shipped their products. Do you
know how that end of the industry worked and how and when it evolved?...
Elden,

It turns out Eastman Chemical still makes the stuff:

http://www.eastman.com/Brands/piccolastic/Pages/Overview.aspx

We need a bit of discussion about the term resin, a generic term that covers a lot of territory. Since the original question was about Styron polystyrene, I wanted to correct the impression that it was a liquid. Almost all thermoPLASTIC resins (that's the PLASTICS that Dustin Hoffman was advised to get into in the movie The Graduate) are reacted during manufacture so they become fully polymerized, and are delivered to the "processor" (molder, extruder, etc.) as a solid, either pellets or powder. The processor simply melts it to make it change shape; no further chemical reaction takes place at this stage.

But the broader use of the term includes the material in the un-reacted state, and this is typically a liquid. These are used in paints and coatings, for adhesives, and as a binder for some molding processes. They can be naturally occurring compounds, such as linseed oil, or synthetics, such as polyester. In use, the chemical reaction that turns the resin into a polymer occurs at the point of use. That is the common thread that ties all these together; enamel paints technically don't dry, they cure, same for most adhesives and THERMOSET molding compounds. The defining feature of all these is once reacted, they can't be undone; the paint or glue or molded parts can't be dissolved in solvent to return to the virgin material. Paint may dissolve in some solvent, but it won't become paint again.

There is a sub-set of the molding industry that deals with thermosets, indeed, one of the earliest synthetic molding compounds, Bakelite, is a thermosetting resin. The resins used are typically endothermic, that is, they need to absorb heat to cure. The "BMC" Bulk Molding Compound as it is known, is made by blending resin, catalyst, fillers and reinforcements to a putty-like consistency, catalysis to a level that that won't react at normal temperatures. This is then fed into an extruder and forced into a heated mold, the temperature of which is high enough to "kick off" the polymerization. The process is the exact opposite of thermoplastic molding, which uses a heated extruder and chilled mold; thermosets require a chilled extruder, to keep it from reacting prematurely, and a heated mold to drive the reaction.

I don't have enough experience with the thermoset molding industry to say whether it is common to blend BMC in the same facility that molds it; the company next door to Accurail used to compound BMC and ship it out in boxes with plastic liners to another facility where it was molded. There was no rail service, but inbound was tank trailers of resin and solvents for cleaning equipment, and van trailers of powdered clay fillers and chopped glass fiber for reinforcement. The boxes of BMC went out in van trailers.

Dennis


Re: Styron

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I remember those fiberboard drums, a very common item. Were they about
the same size as metal drums? (55 gallons, I think?) I think dozens of
HO scale models exist of ribbed metal drums, but I can't recall seeing
any models of smooth-side fiberboard drums. A manufacturer would be a
good lineside industry -- receiving kraft paper box cars (or ?) and
shipping out box cars of empty drums.

Tim O'Connor
That's likely because fiberboard drums were seldom seen outside, since they didn't hold up any better in the rain than cardboard boxes did.

As to size, anything was possible, from short little ones not much bigger than a 5 gal. pail up to the 55 gallon size.

Speaking of that, considering the cut-off for this list is 1960, does anyone know when the ubiquitous 5 gal. plastic pail was first introduced? Wikipedia doesn't supply a date, and for the life of me, I can't remember when I first saw one. As far as modeling goes, in HO these wouldn't look any different from the metal pails that preceded them, except the metal pails were almost always painted either black or gray, while the plastic pails are often white or blue.

Dennis


Re: Styron

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Dennis;

The only resin operation I was familiar with was the old Pennsylvania
Industrial Chemical Corp that was taken over in the mid-70's by Hercules.
They made PICCOLASTIC among others, lots of it used in the rubber and
plastics industry, among what I understand were literally hundreds of varied
end users. I believe they were once users of coke by-products but gradually
turned to shipment of petroleum derivatives for use in their resin
production, and I have photos of insulated ICC 103 tank cars with platforms
going in and out of there; they also shipped out drums in box cars, but I do
not remember at what point. I would love to know more about how the
industry, and they in particular, got and shipped their products. Do you
know how that end of the industry worked and how and when it evolved? I
worked in a Styrofoam manufacturer in the 1970's, and by then, it had all
gone to pellets that were heated in giant molds, and I never saw any liquids
in that product. Even my stepfather, who worked as an organic chemist on
hydrocarbon research, has been unable to tell me how it worked at the working
level, for resins like they made at PICCO.

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 10:29 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Styron




I remember those fiberboard drums, a very common item. Were they about the
same size as metal drums? (55 gallons, I think?) I think dozens of HO scale
models exist of ribbed metal drums, but I can't recall seeing any models of
smooth-side fiberboard drums. A manufacturer would be a good lineside
industry -- receiving kraft paper box cars (or ?) and shipping out box cars
of empty drums.

Tim O'Connor

And many resins were shipped in drums, in box cars, as an alternative
to tank car shipment, especially where the end user desired smaller
quantities.
Elden Gatwood
Polystyrene resin "feedstock" is shipped as pellets, as are most
thermoplastic resins used by the extrusion and molding industry. The
polymerization process yields a molten blob that would solidify into one
giant rock at room temperature, so the blob is extruded into strands maybe
3/32" or 1/8" in diameter, then immediately diced into pellets of about the
same length by calender rolls. These pellets are then remelted in an extruder
and further made into extruded profiles, bottles, or molded parts, such as
our kits.

Most plastic feedstock is shipped today in covered hoppers; the largest
sizes on the rails, since the material is so light in weight. In years past,
however, 50 pound bags on pallets or fiberboard drums were the norm. I worked
in a molding shop back in the sixties, and almost all of our material arrived
(by truck) in bags on pallets. The big "Gaylord" boxes (named for the
originator, the Gaylord Container Corp) were just then coming into widespread
use.

Dennis


Re: Train Schedules and the USRA

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tim;

No, I did not think you were being dismissive, as I too, have a hard time
wrapping my arms around that one. And we are provided no context for that
statement; per week? Per month? And to say that the PRR had standardized
(ha) all freight trains again sounds like an advertisement. I have documents
that do make one wonder, however, how they managed (logistically and
managerially) to have 4 trains passing one another in the same reach of track
at the same time, so at a minimum, we know that had an awful lot of trains
running over certain stretches of track. I also even question any speeds
associated with PRR trains, as movies and personal observations just didn't
bear it out. The PRR was sloooooow in my part of the country. It wasn't
just slow speed restrictions. Why? Drag freights; 10-15 mph; lots of them;
outnumbered anything that might have had a sense of urgency, like mail or LCL
or Time Freight. We just hear a lot about the 100-mph+ T-1 runs! And yes,
there is documentation in the files from shippers that berated the PRR on
their on-time performance and condition once arrived. I can fully believe the
SP and ATSF were faster. The PRR might have been the worst of those
delivering produce, but a definitive study awaits, and I'm not sure that data
still exists. But one thing: even if you tack a string of reefers on the
front of a fast freight, coupling damage and sitting around in a yard after
the string has been broken up will more than make up for any improvements you
might have made over the road.

Now you got me thinking about a trip to Lewistown...

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 10:14 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Train Schedules and the USRA



Elden

I was not at all dismissive of the number of PRR trains. But a little table
napkin math, 2900 trains for say 5,000 miles of railroad, would be almost 60
train originations for every 100 miles of line. That kind of density of
freight trains is unthinkable for western railroads -- to say nothing at all
of PRR's passenger train density, which also was far greater than most places
in the western US. PRR may have had some difficulty keeping perishables on
time (haven't seen any objective evidence of this, just hearsay and
anecdotes) but I tend to doubt any other management would have done much
better given the volumes of traffic on the PRR. Better to ask: If SP and
AT&SF were so much better run, how come their average freight train speeds in
those wide open spaces were only a few MPH faster than the plodding PRR?

Tim O'Connor

Tim and all;

I think it was wishful thinking that they were all scheduled, but I
would not be too quick to dismiss the number of trains. The Mon
Division alone ran dozens. All the ex-PRR guys I've talked to agree
that, while there were published schedules with freight trains on them,
like Bruce said, freights were almost always run as extras; the system
had to have flexibility to handle the kind of train density you
mention. And we are talking density like no one can comprehend in this
day and age. WW2 must've been an incredible lesson in how to run a
railroad. There were also good reasons for the PRR to have had the kind
of complicated trackage and interlockings they had. Density.

That being said, the PRR did run trains in certain slots,
pre-designated by that schedule. A "for instance" would be all the
"symbol" freights they ran (like MA-50/51 and PT-6/7), in areas with a
lot of industry, mostly at night, to avoid stumbling over all the
locals and such running during the day, crossing the mains and creating
tie-ups. Most of the trains in my area of interest ran during these
time slots to avoid one another, and to provide for sufficient time and
capacity at intervening yards, for setting out blocks and allowing for
switch crews to keep things clean.

I have also been doing research on Pennsy trains, schedules and actual
operations for some time, and have some very interesting breakdowns of
traffic for 1918, 1935, the 50's and 60's. What really interested me
were the details of what pops out vis-à-vis interchange, actual times
running, number of trains, and figuring out why they did what they did.
Another is the disappearance of stations, team tracks, branches, and
industries over time.

If anyone is interested in more detail, just ask.

Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:33 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Train Schedules and the USRA



I'd like to know more about 2900 scheduled freight trains! I know the
SP had
-some- scheduled freights, but most freights ran as extras.
And of course the number of daily freights was nowhere near 2900 on the SP.

Some railroads have tried (and failed) to run fully scheduled systems
in the modern era (i.e. last 20 years). CSXT even tried to run all
freights at a constant speed (30 mph) thinking that would simplify
train operations and eliminate yard congestion. It was a total failure.

It's fun to pick on PRR but the traffic density on the PRR (especially
east of Pittsburgh) dwarfed anything on western railroads, or the Erie
for that matter. Average freight train speed west or east was less than
20 mph in that era so a "full day" freight train might get 500 miles
over the road... For the SP and other long haul roads that was fine and
easy, that was basically the distance between major terminals. For the
PRR, 500 miles meant 1/2 the maximum distance of the system and meant
encountering 2 or 3 major terminals enroute. Density matters!

Tim O'Connor

I recently acquired through eBay a Pennsylvania Railroad ad from the
October 20, 1928 "Literary Digest" entitled "A New Era in Agriculture."
It heralds the increase of the output of fresh fruits and vegetables
and the PRR's role in transporting this increased production. One
paragraph reads: "A few years ago, scarcely 10% of freight trains were
on regular schedules. Today the Pennsylvania Railroad's 2900 freight
trains are operated on regular schedules as dependable as those of
passenger limiteds."

My question is assuming the statement is true that "A few years ago,
scarcely 10% of freight trains were on regular schedules," was this
lack of regular schedules the cause (or a factor at least) of the RR's
inability to get the job done moving freight in WWI resulting in the
creation of the USRA?

Bill Welch


Re: Styron

Tim O'Connor
 

I remember those fiberboard drums, a very common item. Were they about
the same size as metal drums? (55 gallons, I think?) I think dozens of
HO scale models exist of ribbed metal drums, but I can't recall seeing
any models of smooth-side fiberboard drums. A manufacturer would be a
good lineside industry -- receiving kraft paper box cars (or ?) and
shipping out box cars of empty drums.

Tim O'Connor

And many resins were shipped in drums, in box cars, as an alternative to tank
car shipment, especially where the end user desired smaller quantities.
Elden Gatwood
Polystyrene resin "feedstock" is shipped as pellets, as are most thermoplastic resins used by the extrusion and molding industry. The polymerization process yields a molten blob that would solidify into one giant rock at room temperature, so the blob is extruded into strands maybe 3/32" or 1/8" in diameter, then immediately diced into pellets of about the same length by calender rolls. These pellets are then remelted in an extruder and further made into extruded profiles, bottles, or molded parts, such as our kits.

Most plastic feedstock is shipped today in covered hoppers; the largest sizes on the rails, since the material is so light in weight. In years past, however, 50 pound bags on pallets or fiberboard drums were the norm. I worked in a molding shop back in the sixties, and almost all of our material arrived (by truck) in bags on pallets. The big "Gaylord" boxes (named for the originator, the Gaylord Container Corp) were just then coming into widespread use.

Dennis


Re: Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)

Tim O'Connor
 

Are you sure it was lime, and not lye? Lye (caustic soda, or sodium
hydroxide) is sometimes used as a decontaminant. I think both need to
be stored away from air or water exposure.

Tim O'Connor

At 3/31/2010 10:53 AM Wednesday, you wrote:
I have heard lime was used as a disinfectant, after the stock cars were cleaned. Cleaning was done with shovel and/or pitchfork,
followed by steam. And it was done after each load of livestock. Livestock disease was to be avoided at all costs, and heaven help
the railroad whose cars were blamed for spreading a disease because they were not clean.
Bedding was straw in the winter months and sand in the warmer months.

Most stockpens had a small building or half a box car, in which was kept feed as well as lime. And lime was used at the stockpens
to disinfect.

The CP & CN painted the lower part of the stockcars white. It may have been a publicity ploy to let shippers know their stockcars
were clean and safe. I have not seen an interior photo that shows white paint on the inside of a stockcar, which is where I would
think you would really want any protective powers of paint. Photos I have seen of stockcar interiors show unpainted wood.

Looks like a subject that needs little more research.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: Train Schedules and the USRA

Tim O'Connor
 

Elden

I was not at all dismissive of the number of PRR trains. But a little
table napkin math, 2900 trains for say 5,000 miles of railroad, would
be almost 60 train originations for every 100 miles of line. That kind
of density of freight trains is unthinkable for western railroads --
to say nothing at all of PRR's passenger train density, which also was
far greater than most places in the western US. PRR may have had some
difficulty keeping perishables on time (haven't seen any objective
evidence of this, just hearsay and anecdotes) but I tend to doubt any
other management would have done much better given the volumes of
traffic on the PRR. Better to ask: If SP and AT&SF were so much better
run, how come their average freight train speeds in those wide open
spaces were only a few MPH faster than the plodding PRR?

Tim O'Connor

Tim and all;

I think it was wishful thinking that they were all scheduled, but I would not
be too quick to dismiss the number of trains. The Mon Division alone ran
dozens. All the ex-PRR guys I've talked to agree that, while there were
published schedules with freight trains on them, like Bruce said, freights
were almost always run as extras; the system had to have flexibility to
handle the kind of train density you mention. And we are talking density
like no one can comprehend in this day and age. WW2 must've been an
incredible lesson in how to run a railroad. There were also good reasons for
the PRR to have had the kind of complicated trackage and interlockings they
had. Density.

That being said, the PRR did run trains in certain slots, pre-designated by
that schedule. A "for instance" would be all the "symbol" freights they ran
(like MA-50/51 and PT-6/7), in areas with a lot of industry, mostly at night,
to avoid stumbling over all the locals and such running during the day,
crossing the mains and creating tie-ups. Most of the trains in my area of
interest ran during these time slots to avoid one another, and to provide for
sufficient time and capacity at intervening yards, for setting out blocks and
allowing for switch crews to keep things clean.

I have also been doing research on Pennsy trains, schedules and actual
operations for some time, and have some very interesting breakdowns of
traffic for 1918, 1935, the 50's and 60's. What really interested me were
the details of what pops out vis-�-vis interchange, actual times running,
number of trains, and figuring out why they did what they did. Another is
the disappearance of stations, team tracks, branches, and industries over
time.

If anyone is interested in more detail, just ask.

Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Train Schedules and the USRA



I'd like to know more about 2900 scheduled freight trains! I know the SP had
-some- scheduled freights, but most freights ran as extras.
And of course the number of daily freights was nowhere near 2900 on the SP.

Some railroads have tried (and failed) to run fully scheduled systems in the
modern era (i.e. last 20 years). CSXT even tried to run all freights at a
constant speed (30 mph) thinking that would simplify train operations and
eliminate yard congestion. It was a total failure.

It's fun to pick on PRR but the traffic density on the PRR (especially east
of Pittsburgh) dwarfed anything on western railroads, or the Erie for that
matter. Average freight train speed west or east was less than 20 mph in that
era so a "full day" freight train might get 500 miles over the road... For
the SP and other long haul roads that was fine and easy, that was basically
the distance between major terminals. For the PRR, 500 miles meant 1/2 the
maximum distance of the system and meant encountering 2 or 3 major terminals
enroute. Density matters!

Tim O'Connor

I recently acquired through eBay a Pennsylvania Railroad ad from the
October 20, 1928 "Literary Digest" entitled "A New Era in Agriculture."
It heralds the increase of the output of fresh fruits and vegetables
and the PRR's role in transporting this increased production. One
paragraph reads: "A few years ago, scarcely 10% of freight trains were
on regular schedules. Today the Pennsylvania Railroad's 2900 freight
trains are operated on regular schedules as dependable as those of
passenger limiteds."

My question is assuming the statement is true that "A few years ago,
scarcely 10% of freight trains were on regular schedules," was this
lack of regular schedules the cause (or a factor at least) of the RR's
inability to get the job done moving freight in WWI resulting in the
creation of the USRA?

Bill Welch


Re: Train Schedules and the USRA

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tim and all;

I think it was wishful thinking that they were all scheduled, but I would not
be too quick to dismiss the number of trains. The Mon Division alone ran
dozens. All the ex-PRR guys I've talked to agree that, while there were
published schedules with freight trains on them, like Bruce said, freights
were almost always run as extras; the system had to have flexibility to
handle the kind of train density you mention. And we are talking density
like no one can comprehend in this day and age. WW2 must've been an
incredible lesson in how to run a railroad. There were also good reasons for
the PRR to have had the kind of complicated trackage and interlockings they
had. Density.

That being said, the PRR did run trains in certain slots, pre-designated by
that schedule. A "for instance" would be all the "symbol" freights they ran
(like MA-50/51 and PT-6/7), in areas with a lot of industry, mostly at night,
to avoid stumbling over all the locals and such running during the day,
crossing the mains and creating tie-ups. Most of the trains in my area of
interest ran during these time slots to avoid one another, and to provide for
sufficient time and capacity at intervening yards, for setting out blocks and
allowing for switch crews to keep things clean.

I have also been doing research on Pennsy trains, schedules and actual
operations for some time, and have some very interesting breakdowns of
traffic for 1918, 1935, the 50's and 60's. What really interested me were
the details of what pops out vis-à-vis interchange, actual times running,
number of trains, and figuring out why they did what they did. Another is
the disappearance of stations, team tracks, branches, and industries over
time.

If anyone is interested in more detail, just ask.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Train Schedules and the USRA



I'd like to know more about 2900 scheduled freight trains! I know the SP had
-some- scheduled freights, but most freights ran as extras.
And of course the number of daily freights was nowhere near 2900 on the SP.

Some railroads have tried (and failed) to run fully scheduled systems in the
modern era (i.e. last 20 years). CSXT even tried to run all freights at a
constant speed (30 mph) thinking that would simplify train operations and
eliminate yard congestion. It was a total failure.

It's fun to pick on PRR but the traffic density on the PRR (especially east
of Pittsburgh) dwarfed anything on western railroads, or the Erie for that
matter. Average freight train speed west or east was less than 20 mph in that
era so a "full day" freight train might get 500 miles over the road... For
the SP and other long haul roads that was fine and easy, that was basically
the distance between major terminals. For the PRR, 500 miles meant 1/2 the
maximum distance of the system and meant encountering 2 or 3 major terminals
enroute. Density matters!

Tim O'Connor

I recently acquired through eBay a Pennsylvania Railroad ad from the
October 20, 1928 "Literary Digest" entitled "A New Era in Agriculture."
It heralds the increase of the output of fresh fruits and vegetables
and the PRR's role in transporting this increased production. One
paragraph reads: "A few years ago, scarcely 10% of freight trains were
on regular schedules. Today the Pennsylvania Railroad's 2900 freight
trains are operated on regular schedules as dependable as those of
passenger limiteds."

My question is assuming the statement is true that "A few years ago,
scarcely 10% of freight trains were on regular schedules," was this
lack of regular schedules the cause (or a factor at least) of the RR's
inability to get the job done moving freight in WWI resulting in the
creation of the USRA?

Bill Welch


Re: Cleaning Stock Cars

Richard Townsend
 

I have seen a photo of horses being unloaded from stock cars in Rosslyn, Virginia (Arlington), across the Potomac River from the Georgetown area of Washington, DC. Again, it was Army horses. As I recall it was 1920's era.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, Mar 31, 2010 6:00 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Cleaning Stock Cars




kenneth broomfield wrote:
Not cleaning of stock cars but were they ever used for horse
transportation. I know the Pennsy had horse cars but they were used
more for race horses.
Yes. I have a couple of photos of SP stock cars unloading horses
(U.S. Army cavalry at Fort Bliss). They were included in the stock car
portion of my Vol. 1 on SP freight cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)

Steve SANDIFER
 

See also
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/03.htm for the various loads in stock cars. The recently discussed N&W film had about a 3 second clip of bricks being loaded into a stock car.
On the above internet page is a link to the
Pamphlet No. 19, Association of American Railroads, Methods for Loading and Handling Live Stock, Revised January, 1942 which is very interesting and details the number of stock to load and some good hog washing photos.

______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: kenneth broomfield
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)



Not cleaning of stock cars but were they ever used for horse transportation. I know the Pennsy had horse cars but they were used more for race horses.

Kenny Broomfield

________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 6:41:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)


Steve Sandifer wrote:
> See also:
> http://atsfrr. net/resources/ Sandifer/ Clinics/Stk/ 06.htm

Thank you, Steve. That should answer questions of anyone
interested in accurate stock car handling.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Railroad Prototype Research

NicholasF
 

Good evening,

Ron Hoess and I both gave talks at RPM East in Malvern, PA this past weekend (March 26 to 28) on railroad research for prototype modeling. We've been talking after the event and have set up a blog that we'll be using to publish tips and other information useful to model railroaders and others doing prototype research.

We hope that we can provide information useful to all model railroaders, and others interested in railroad research. If you're interested, please check out our blog at http://railroadresearch.blogspot.com

Thanks.

Take Care
-Nick Fry

Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society
http://www.borhs.org


Re: Cleaning Stock Cars

James McDonald
 

Hi Kenny,

I can add that I've seen photos of US Army horses being unloaded from rows of RF&P and PRR stock cars on the RF&P at one of the Virginia military bases.

Best regards,

James McDonald
Greenbelt, MD

kenneth broomfield wrote:
Not cleaning of stock cars but were they ever used for horse transportation. I know the Pennsy had horse cars but they were used more for race horses.
Yes. I have a couple of photos of SP stock cars unloading horses (U.S. Army cavalry at Fort Bliss). They were included in the stock car portion of my Vol. 1 on SP freight cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)

Bruce Smith
 

kenneth broomfield <newtmachineworks@...> 03/31/10 7:10 PM >>>
Not cleaning of stock cars but were they ever used for horse
transportation. I know the Pennsy had horse cars but they were used more
for race horses.

Kenny,

Tony answered for SP - I've also seen photos of the PRR transporting US
Army horses by K7/K7a stock cars.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Cleaning stock cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John Riddell wrote:
The CNR's 1927 issue of "Rules and Government Regulations Governing the Transportation of Livestock" states on page 14 "Stock cars used for the conveyance of live stock shall be cleansed and disinfected at such times and places as the Minister may order." This was a federal requirement applicable to every stock car in the country.
Thank you, John. The U.S. regulations were a combination of ICC requirements and AAR consensus agreements, and were certainly comparable as to cleaning, etc. The U.S. regulations also gave the shippers the right to refuse a car they did not consider clean enough.

Many thousands of stock cars of the CNR, CPR and ONR had their lower slated sides painted white to minimize the messy appearance of the white lime spray. However several railways, TH&B, NAR, PGE, did not paint their car sides white. The result was that most photos of their stock cars show messy looking lower sides.
Thanks for the authoritative summary, John. I'm not aware that the "lime spray" after cleaning was used much in the U.S. and certainly few photos suggest that it was.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Cleaning Stock Cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

kenneth broomfield wrote:
Not cleaning of stock cars but were they ever used for horse transportation. I know the Pennsy had horse cars but they were used more for race horses.
Yes. I have a couple of photos of SP stock cars unloading horses (U.S. Army cavalry at Fort Bliss). They were included in the stock car portion of my Vol. 1 on SP freight cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)

kenneth broomfield
 

Not cleaning of stock cars but were they ever used for horse transportation. I know the Pennsy had horse cars but they were used more for race horses.

Kenny Broomfield




________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 6:41:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)

 
Steve Sandifer wrote:
See also:
http://atsfrr. net/resources/ Sandifer/ Clinics/Stk/ 06.htm
Thank you, Steve. That should answer questions of anyone
interested in accurate stock car handling.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Weathering Chalk

John <jriddell@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Larry King wrote:
Tony, I have in service pictures of NYC stock cars showing
considerable white residue on their sides,also CN and CP stock cars
were painted white on the lower part of their sides presumably to
hide these stains.I seem to recall reading somewhere that lime was
applied as a cleaning method in cold weather.
I didn't mean to say there are no photos of white stains, only
that it's not typical. I too have heard that CN and CP story, but
don't know that it's true, nor was it done by US railroads. Lime kills
fly eggs and maggots. It doesn't clean up bedding (straw; sand for
hogs) stained with excreta. As I said, shippers could and would reject
any car not clean for THEIR stock to go to market. Sprinkling some
lime on dirty bedding would most certainly not meet that standard.
Someone on the list may be more of an expert on stock handling
than me (wouldn't be hard), and if so, I'd welcome clarification or
expansion of this topic.
Tony,

The CNR's 1927 issue of "Rules and Government Regulations Governing the Transportation of Livestock" states on page 14 "Stock cars used for the conveyance of live stock shall be cleansed and disinfected at such times and places as the Minister may order. Such disinfection shall be done by the thorough cleansing of the car and its subsequent white-washing with lime and carbonic acid in the porportion of 1 pound commercial carbolic acid to 5 gallons of lime-wash or such other process as may be approved by the Veterinary Director General." This was a federal requirement applicable to every stock car in the country.

A 1910 photo published in a 1991 RMC shows this process. A flat car carrying barrels of lime wash is pulled along side a string of stock cars. The lime wash is sprayed on the inside of the stock car from the flat car using an air line from the locomotive.

Another specification was: "Where in the opinion of an inspector, wet cleaning and disinfection of a road vehicle is not possible due to freezing temperatures, it will be in order to permit "dry cleaning". This consists of: (a) removing all gross manure etc., (b) sprinkling the area with lime or applying new bedding."

Many thousands of stock cars of the CNR, CPR and ONR had their lower slated sides painted white to minimize the messy appearance of the white lime spray. However several railways, TH&B, NAR, PGE, did not paint their car sides white. The result was that most photos of their stock cars show messy looking lower sides.

The Nov 1991 RMC has many photos.

John Rifddell


Re: Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Steve Sandifer wrote:
See also:
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/06.htm
Thank you, Steve. That should answer questions of anyone interested in accurate stock car handling.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Train Schedules and the USRA

Tim O'Connor
 

I'd like to know more about 2900 scheduled freight trains! I know
the SP had -some- scheduled freights, but most freights ran as extras.
And of course the number of daily freights was nowhere near 2900 on
the SP.

Some railroads have tried (and failed) to run fully scheduled systems
in the modern era (i.e. last 20 years). CSXT even tried to run all
freights at a constant speed (30 mph) thinking that would simplify
train operations and eliminate yard congestion. It was a total failure.

It's fun to pick on PRR but the traffic density on the PRR (especially
east of Pittsburgh) dwarfed anything on western railroads, or the Erie
for that matter. Average freight train speed west or east was less than
20 mph in that era so a "full day" freight train might get 500 miles
over the road... For the SP and other long haul roads that was fine
and easy, that was basically the distance between major terminals. For
the PRR, 500 miles meant 1/2 the maximum distance of the system and
meant encountering 2 or 3 major terminals enroute. Density matters!

Tim O'Connor

I recently acquired through eBay a Pennsylvania Railroad ad from the
October 20, 1928 "Literary Digest" entitled "A New Era in
Agriculture." It heralds the increase of the output of fresh fruits
and vegetables and the PRR's role in transporting this increased
production. One paragraph reads: "A few years ago, scarcely 10% of
freight trains were on regular schedules. Today the Pennsylvania
Railroad's 2900 freight trains are operated on regular schedules as
dependable as those of passenger limiteds."

My question is assuming the statement is true that "A few years ago,
scarcely 10% of freight trains were on regular schedules," was this
lack of regular schedules the cause (or a factor at least) of the
RR's inability to get the job done moving freight in WWI resulting in
the creation of the USRA?

Bill Welch


Re: Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)

Steve SANDIFER
 

See also:
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/06.htm

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J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
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----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Harding
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 9:53 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Cleaning Stock Cars (was Weathering Chalk)



I have heard lime was used as a disinfectant, after the stock cars were cleaned. Cleaning was done with shovel and/or pitchfork,
followed by steam. And it was done after each load of livestock. Livestock disease was to be avoided at all costs, and heaven help
the railroad whose cars were blamed for spreading a disease because they were not clean.
Bedding was straw in the winter months and sand in the warmer months.

Most stockpens had a small building or half a box car, in which was kept feed as well as lime. And lime was used at the stockpens
to disinfect.

The CP & CN painted the lower part of the stockcars white. It may have been a publicity ploy to let shippers know their stockcars
were clean and safe. I have not seen an interior photo that shows white paint on the inside of a stockcar, which is where I would
think you would really want any protective powers of paint. Photos I have seen of stockcar interiors show unpainted wood.

Looks like a subject that needs little more research.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

107861 - 107880 of 197109