--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, water.kresse@... wrote:

Do these cover ventilator box car operations also?

Yes

. . . especially what would typically be carried in ventilated box cars vs. refrig and vent box cars?

Yes

I would guess it would be regional also

Not really, except it does cover rules for cars traveling into or thru Canada. Temperatures and time of year, however, are covered.

Al Kresse

Romeo, Michigan

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

Do these cover ventilator box car operations also?  . . . especially what would typically be carried in ventilated box cars vs. refrig and vent box cars?   I would guess it would be regional also?  The C&O sold its reefers to FGEX in th 30s but kept its ventilated and insulated boxes into the 50s.  Ventilated boxes could be used as expensive lined box cars for most of the season.



Al Kresse

Romeo, Michigan

Tony:
 
Checked out the ORERs at the Co RR Museum yesterday. The only ones prior to 1900 they have are:
 
1888
1893
Feb 1898
Sep 1898
 
From 1900 on there are only one or two gaps but they are pretty much all there, one for each year.
 
BTW  Duplicate ORERS often show up in the annual mail order book auction. I beleive the current one is almost over but you can see what is on the current auction listing by going to the Museum website.
 
Chuck Y
Boulder CO

Chuck,

I don't think that many know about these circulars. I won one from 1948 on Ebay cheap--I was the only bidder. Full name for it was "Circular No. 20-C, Code of Rules for Handling Perishable Freight". 21 pages of fine print, covering everything one would want to know about what reefers could carry and how to protect their loads.

Mine spent quite awhile in the convenient magazine rack in the bathroom. Just lots of neat info!

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

Mr. Thompson wrote: "so the 'somewhat taller' statement strikes me as
an exaggeration." Given the way I phrased my statement I completely
agree, since I implied only about 1" difference in height.

But what I meant to say was that the 45000-46095 and the 55000-
57211 cars were shorter as follows:

More often than not no Winslow Roofs 1"
Lighter frames (4"x8" timbers rather than 5"x9") 1"
Interior height ranged from 6'4" to 6'9" 0"-5"
------
Range of height difference 2"-7"

The 65000-68499 are, indeed, somewhat taller. Is it meaningful? When
the Silver Crash kits came out they fit the earlier cars quite nicely
while a couple of scratchbuilt cars I made fit the latter. The modeled
difference in height is subtle (about 3") but, when end-to-end,
noticeable. Still, I would have little compunction numbering the
Silver Crash cars into the 65000-67499 series if I had not already
modeled the taller cars.

(By the way, Tony, my model of a CS-31 is just about complete,
awaiting only some light weathering. Never would have been possible
without SP Freight Cars Vol, 4. I am now starting a CS-20)

Dave A.

Dennis Storzek wrote:

Yeah, but... There was also an air space, about an inch or so, between the outer sheathing and the metal roof sheet..
The real spotting feature of these roofs is they looked bulkier... Where the double board roof was simply two layers of 1" stock, actually typically 13/16" for a total thickness of 1-5/8", and the outside metal roofs ended on a small fascia just slightly overhanging the car side (or not, the original construction of the USRA double sheathed cars put this fascia flush with the car siding) inside metal roofs had a second fascia spaced out from the first to allow drainage of any water would weep through the board roof.

Dennis is right, though the much later USRA cars may not have had too much in common with the 1890s car we started on. The 1906 "Cyc" (actually the Dictionary) has a nice section showing cross- sections of the various inside metal roofs. Spacers between the two layers appear to add about an inch to total car height. Adding that inch to the 13/16-inch thickness of the outer roof, I will still say that the cars were not MUCH taller than their wooden-roof siblings.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Rich,
I have been unable to locate a photo of IC 62600 - 62609. I did find these 60 foot cars in an IC freight car diagram book. From the illustration they appear to be fishbelly cars. The dimensions show a clearance of 13 1/2 inches at the bottom of the fishbelly side so I think the drawing is correct.

I can scan the page and email it to you if you need it.

Jeff White
Alma, IL

richtownsend@netscape.net wrote:

Red Caboose makes a plastic Klasing hand brake for the Mather reefer. This may be the one you need. I understand, unfortunately, that Red Caboose will no longer supply parts.
Gene Green

There have been frequent and long discussions here on the subjects
of refrigerated freight, their cars, companies, routes, and destinations. I can't recall the mention of the National Perishable
Freight Committee. Perhaps just Oldtimers Disease?
Anyway, I encounted and bought at a train show two circulars from
this NPFC. Dates are 1969 and 1970, putting this info into the
future for this group but was this group around earlier? Was it
a railroad organisation or a shippers group?
In any case these have a lot of very specific information suggesting
that the master documents to which these are changes could answer
a lot of the questions raised in this group.
Example: Section 3 --Ventilation service
Rule 300-- Administering Ventilation Service
(G) Western Fruit Express Co. RBWX cars in series 64537-64561 and
Great Northern Ry. Co. cars GN2000178-200179: these cars are equipped
with four ventilation units on car sides near ends, each individually
and manually operated to "open" or "closed" position. Remove locking
pin and raise handle to "open" or lower to "closed" position and
replace locking pin.
Elsewhere there is about a page and a half of commodities excluded
from refrigerator cars and TOFC insulated tailers.
These booklets are pretty interesting to me. Maybe they are oldhat
to most of those here. Any hope of finding some that date back to
the mid 50s?
Chuck Peck

In reference to the preferred forwarders for PFE and SFRD, a question
came up on the CGW list: Thursday was "meat night" on the CGW. Meat
refrigerator cars came from South St. Paul and Austin, Minnesota, in the
north; from packers in Omaha and Council Bluffs on the west end; and
from packers in Kansas City, St. Joseph, Missouri; and from Des Moines
and even Marshalltown, Iowa. And in addition, the M&StL sometimes
delivered cars from Decker in Mason City to the CGW in Marshalltown.
Most of the meat moved to Oelwein, Iowa, where cars from the north,
west, and south were combined and moved on to interchange mostly with
the IHB in Bellwood.

People have pointed out the the Pennsy was the least preferred forwarder
as far as PFE/SFRD were concerned with the NYC, and B&O not far from the
bottom of the list. Does someone out there know who got most of the
meat and perishablies--if there were any--from the CGW. The list
mentions the ERIE as the road that reliably delivered. From photos I
have seen I infer that the NKP was a reliable forwarder. Meat of course
had to move and move as expeditiously as possible. Who got the stuff
from the CGW?

Tom

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

The inside metal roof, of which the Winslow was an example,
was widespread before the outside metal roof superseded it. Both were
structurally wood roofs, and as David says, the inside metal roof had
an additional layer of wood atop the metal sheathing. But this was
only about an inch thick, so the "somewhat taller" statement strikes
me as an exaggeration.

Yeah, but... There was also an air space, about an inch or so, between the outer sheathing and the metal roof sheet..

The real spotting feature of these roofs is they looked bulkier... Where the double board roof was simply two layers of 1" stock, actually typically 13/16" for a total thickness of 1-5/8", and the outside metal roofs ended on a small fascia just slightly overhanging the car side (or not, the original construction of the USRA double sheathed cars put this fascia flush with the car siding) inside metal roofs had a second fascia spaced out from the first to allow drainage of any water would weep through the board roof. This fascia was the width of the thickness of the inner roof, plus the air space and so was a rather prominent feature along the top of the car side. In those days of wood framing, before the advent of using a Z bar for the top plate, the roof was always the widest part of the car, and an inside metal roof made it wider.

Dennis

Inside metal roofs (in general): How did they attach the outer layer of boards? My thinking woud be that they are tongue-and-groove boards nailed down only at the peak and eaves , so as to avoid nailing through the metal. However the obvious isn't always true.

How thick was the metal sheet such that scuffing or damage was a concern?

KL

David Allen wrote:

The series 65000 - 68499 used Winslow roofs (a sheet iron roof, for water tightness, covered by a wood roof to protect the iron roof from scuffing. Thus the car is somewhat taller than its interior height or comparison with its peers would suggest.

The inside metal roof, of which the Winslow was an example, was widespread before the outside metal roof superseded it. Both were structurally wood roofs, and as David says, the inside metal roof had an additional layer of wood atop the metal sheathing. But this was only about an inch thick, so the "somewhat taller" statement strikes me as an exaggeration.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Apr 3, 2010, at 7:22 PM, railwayman wrote:

Richard--

I think that you're describing GTW Train 490. Out of Chicago (Elsdon)
at 10.00 pm, arriving Port Huron 6.00 am. After going through the
St. Clair Tunnel, it left Sarnia on CN just after 10.00 am for
Toronto, Montreal and the New England states. Almost all track on
the GTW between Chicago and Port Huron was double track, with
entirely double track on CN from Sarnia to Montreal.

This train was hot on the Canadian side as well, at least as far as
Montreal. From Ian Wilson's "Steam Through London"--

In the eyes of railwaymen, number 490 has passenger train status,
and Heaven help anyone who gets in its way".

There are photos of SFRD reefers in Toronto in the 1920's, being
emptied of perishables on a team track near the Toronto Fruit
Terminal.

The CPR could not come close to competing with CN for this traffic,
as they took Canadian-bound traffic at Windsor from the NYC/MCRR
and other roads over a mostly single-track railway to Toronto and
Montreal.

Steve Lucas.

Steve, thanks for that additional information. The western
railroads' freight agents were strongly encouraged to route
perishable traffic where that kind of service could be counted on, in
contrast to those eastern railroads (which shall be nameless here,
but we know who they were) who ran all freight as though it were coal
or ore.

Richard Hendrickson

On Apr 3, 2010, at 8:24 PM, Andrew Miller wrote:

A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and
wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were
they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery
whose name they carried?

Andy, you didn't indicate the nature of the wine car (insulated ICC
203 tank car, non-insulated tank car, or express reefer with tanks),
or the shipper for which it was lettered. With more information, I
can give you a more detailed and confident response; I've developed a
Power Point clinic on wine cars for prototype modelers' meets which
includes ca. 60 photos and much historical information. However, in
general, though some wine cars were in more or less local service,
many carried bulk wine from California to bottlers all over the
country - everywhere from St. Louis and Chicago to New Jersey, New
York City, and even relatively rural Maine. You wouldn't have seen
them on branch lines unless there was a consignee on the branch, but
there were several hundred of them and they were photographed en
route on east-west main lines or being switched at major terminals
like Chicago and Kansas City. Keep in mind, however, that premium
table wines were bottled and shipped by the case in refrigerator or
insulated box cars; only the cheaper wines, often fortified with
brandy, were shipped in bulk - in terms of today's brands, think
Night Train and Thunderbird, not Kendall-Jackson or Louis Martini.

Richard Hendrickson

I plan to take an Athearn boxcar and convert it to DSS&A 17000-17099. They used a Klasing brake, any suggestions? Moloco sells two but they look newer.
What trucks would best suit this.

Once again thank to all who are kind to answer questions that I have posted.

Sincerely, Mark Morgan

Andrew,
The Chateau Martin cars went from Cal to NY.
http://coastdaylight.com/chatmart/cmwx_roster_1.html
 
As did many of the other wineries cars did at one time.
 
Michael

A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery whose name they carried?

Andy Miller

Can't tell you the class, but it would be a good car to model

July 1904 ORER page 160
series 65000 - 68499
inside 33 5 1/4; 8 3 1/4; 6 9
outside 34 ; 9 8; 11 5
doors 5; 6 1 3/4, end 2; 9 3/4
1857 cu ft, 60000 cpy 3373 cars in series.
This is the largest series listed, only one other makes it to 4 digits.

Howard Garner

Richard--

I think that you're describing GTW Train 490. Out of Chicago (Elsdon)
at 10.00 pm, arriving Port Huron 6.00 am. After going through the St. Clair Tunnel, it left Sarnia on CN just after 10.00 am for Toronto, Montreal and the New England states. Almost all track on the GTW between Chicago and Port Huron was double track, with entirely double track on CN from Sarnia to Montreal.

This train was hot on the Canadian side as well, at least as far as Montreal. From Ian Wilson's "Steam Through London"--

In the eyes of railwaymen, number 490 has passenger train status, and Heaven help anyone who gets in its way".

There are photos of SFRD reefers in Toronto in the 1920's, being emptied of perishables on a team track near the Toronto Fruit Terminal.

The CPR could not come close to competing with CN for this traffic, as they took Canadian-bound traffic at Windsor from the NYC/MCRR and other roads over a mostly single-track railway to Toronto and Montreal.

Steve Lucas.