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Re: Freight car Distribution
Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
"Per diem was a fixed daily charge. I don't think railroads paid mileage
on other railroads' cars. I think the only time railroads played per diem games was when cars were near interchanges, and then they shuffled cars to an interchange before the midnight hour, so the receiving railroad would be saddled with the per diem for the next day. Per diem was quite low in those days, and was the same for all cars, around $2/day. Some railroads (like GN) had a per diem surplus and HATED it, because it amounted to a subsidy to other railroads (i.e. they rented cars out at less than the cost of ownership)." In my experience mileage charges also applied but this was after the dates covered by this list, I need to dig out some old Equipment Registers. Ross McLeod Calgary __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
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Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic
Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
"Ah, but Dennis, suppose I shipped a box car of $100 bills to the bank,
and withdrew it again as pennies?" Less the charge for transit - transit would be considered a priviledge. Ross McLeod Calgary __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: MD&S' / SAL's Magor Pulpwood Cars
John Degnan <Scaler164@...>
This would make perfect sense since (cents?) the SAL purchased controlling interest in the MD&S in 1907, and MD&S remained under SAL control until being absorbed (into SAL) in 1958... only two years after these cars were built (or there abouts).
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John Degnan JohnnyReb69@...
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor To: STMFC@... Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:15 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: MD&S' / SAL's Magor Pulpwood Cars According to Ed's book, the cars were purchased by the SAL but lettered for MD&S. Unfortunately there is no photo. They were Lot W-3689. Also listed as SAL purchased, MD&S lettered, are gondolas 4000-4009 built 11-1956, just one month before the pulpwood cars. Tim O'Connor
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Re: Freight car Distribution...help with ICC report
Dave Nelson
Tim O'Connor wrote:
It would be a very interesting fact to find out: For each railroad, Tim, the numbers seem to be all over the place. Rutland in 1950 had 1.96% of all cars handled were purly local traffic and a third of that seems to be LCL. Western Pacific in 1950 had 11.5% of all cars handled as purely local traffic and about 40% of those cars moved gravel. Rio Grande in 1948 saw 23.57% of all cars handled as purely local traffic; about 40% of those cars were carring minerals (coal)... and about a quarter were used for Products of Mfg... But digging into the details it's iron pipe, gasoline, automobiles, manufactured steel (e.g., coil, beams, etc) before finally getting down to something clearly in ordinary boxcars: canned food, which was ~ 11% of all local shipments. So what is that... 2% of all cars handled? Santa Fe in 1956 had 35.08% of all cars handled were purly local traffic... A quarter of those each to Products of Mines and Products of Agriculture and a third to Products of Mfg. Of the later category, I see ~10% of those cars were tank cars (e.g., gasoline, lube oil), 5% cement... The remaining 85% scattered all over... Steel, houshold goods, fetilizer, scrap metal, whatever. I dunno if you can see a regional pattern but to my eye it looks very much like it's telling us whatever happened to be big business on each specific route... As well, perhaps, why the percentages of the types of owned home road cars were what why were (e.g., why the Rio Grande had lots of GS gons on no ventilator boxcars). Dave Nelson
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N&W trackside signs in HO
Jim King
If there is enough interest, I will produce resin castings of the whistle
post and "no trespassing" signs (and others, if requested) in HO. They would consist of a cast duplicate of code 70 rail (for the post) and targets with raised lettering (if possible) that would be highlighted with a permanent black market. If text is too small to create using the rapid prototyping process, decals will be used instead. Let me know what interest you have in these (and other) N&W signs. Jim King Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc. Ph. (828) 777-5619 <www.smokymountainmodelworks.com>
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Re: "Tar Paper " and "Mule Hyde" Roofs
WILLIAM PARDIE
Victor;
I came across an "O" scale list that recommended Johnson and Johnson paper tape (for bandages). I bought some but have not as yet tried it. Also tissue set into fresh paint or oversprayed with paint. Bill Pardie On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:19 AM, jerryglow@... wrote: On some brass cabooses, I stippled on artists acrylics to get a [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Milling in Transit
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:
I'm getting near the fringes of my knowledge, but I'll start, and someone who knows more can chime in and correct anything I've mis-interpreted. Milling in transit appears to pre-date the formation of the ICC. In the rough-and-tumble pre-regulatory days it was a way railroads could induce millers to locate on their line; offer a single through rate from source to customer. It appears to be the reason that both the M &St.L and Soo Line were built; the millers in Minneapolis were tired of paying two local rates to move grain in and then ship flour out, when the same RR's they were shipping on were offering better rates to mills located further east. The Minneapolis milling interests started building a railroad to St. Louis, but lost control, they later started two other lines, the Minneapolis & Pacific to bring grain in from the west, and the Minneapolis, Sault Ste. Marie & Atlantic to ship flour to the east. When these roads were finished, they were consolidated into the Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie. Then Pillsbury and the other Minneapolis Millers could also enjoy the the advantages of milling in transit. Since this was the entrenched way that the flour trade was being conducted, it continued under ICC regulation; the tariffs were published, and all the ICC concerned itself with is that the rates were equally available to all. Who was the Shipper? As I understand it, it was the miller, who bought the grain delivered at the elevator, and paid the freight from there to the customer, with the priveledge of a stop-off to mill it into flour somewhere along the way. The combined rate was less than the sum of the local inbound rate on grain and local outbound rate on flour; it was advantageous to the railroad as it gave them a longer haul on grain that was captive to their line. Did it have to be the same car? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I think most tariffs had a provision for changing the cars en route; there are instances of railroads who would reload coal into home road cars back in the days when labor was cheap. In reality, it may well have often been a paper transaction, with fifty tons of inbound grain simply matched with fifty tons of outbound flour for billing purposes. You will notice the 1890 newspaper article I linked to concerns itself in part with the outbound loads being heavier than the inbounds :-) However, since the same class of car was used for both grain and flour, back in the day, I would suspect that from track side, it looked like the same cars being used. Dennis
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Re: Box/auto distribution 1938
Yes, of course. I would expect therefore that there would have been fewer trains per day in 1938 than in 1949, which would raise my percentages. If you have data showing that the Great Depression led to more trains across Wyoming, I would like to see it. Or if you have better data than Mark provided, please make that public.I'm sure I don't need to point out 1949 was a very different year It has nothing to do with the number of trains Larry. Tim Gilbert pointed out that the percentage of home road cars staying on-line greatly increased throughout the depression years, and so the distribution of cars nationwide was quite different in 1949 than in 1938. The more-or-less uniform distribution of plain box cars is far more apparent in the late 1940's than in the late 1930's. The year 1938 was a severe recession. Industrial output declined sharply. I assume that means there were a lot fewer PRR and other eastern cars on the SP and UP than would be in normal economic times. You say your data show "dominance" of SP cars -- but isn't it just 201 or so SP cars in 34 random trains over a period of a month? Now, that might show "dominance" but it might just also be random luck. If the UP ran 3 trains a day, I'd say that was a great sample. But even if UP only ran 20 trains a day... Well, it's not much to go on. Tim O'
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Re: Freight car Distribution
Paul, what kind of paperwork is handled by the conductor who is
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delivering the empty car to the industry? Is this just called a Car Order? Or maybe an "Empty Waybill"? When an empty car is moved to another (distant) location (e.g. to return to its owner) is that called a Waybill? Tim O'Connor
Jeff:
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Re: "Tar Paper " and "Mule Hyde" Roofs
cinderandeight@...
Victor,
Some freight cars did indeed have canvas roofs that were painted several coats of paint. The June 2, 1928 issue of Railway Age (Page 70) had an ad for "Mule Hide" roofing which read as follows: "Why lay up your cars while you wait for several coats of paint to dry on canvas? MULE-HIDE canvas car roofing is made of the same raw duck that you are accustomed to use on the roofs of passenger cars, saturated and coated both sides with pure Mexican Asphalt, permanently waterproofed. Your men can lay it as quickly as the canvas alone, and as soon as it is applied the car is ready for service. Widths and weight to meet your specifications. Standard on many railways." The product was offered by the Lehon Company of Chicago. Incidentally, the car illustrated in the ad was a CV "Green Mountain Route" milk car, #567. Rich Burg
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Milling in Transit
Aley, Jeff A
Dennis,
Could you please expand upon this topic? For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)? You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification? Thanks much, -Jeff From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of soolinehistory Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic --- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote: No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to a nespaper article from 1890: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C94619ED7CF Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its way. Dennis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Tim, Your point? Dennis
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Re: Box/auto distribution 1938
Wendye Ware
Tim O'Connor wrote
Larry Ostresh wroteYes, of course. I would expect therefore that there would have been fewer trains per day in 1938 than in 1949, which would raise my percentages. If you have data showing that the Great Depression led to more trains across Wyoming, I would like to see it. Or if you have better data than Mark provided, please make that public.I'm sure I don't need to point out 1949 was a very different yearI think 2,267 box cars represent three or four days of UP freight traffic across I don't understandI think the sentences following the one you quoted spell out precisely what I mean by "similar". I wrote: "For example, I would expect them to show the same dominance of UP and SP cars, and I think it is likely that the Central Western ICC region will have more than its fair share of cars, even with UP and SP removed. The New England and Southern regions may have fewer than expected representation also." Best wishes, Larry Ostresh Laramie, Wyoming
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Re: Lumber Loading
Clark Propst
Just pointing out that the car has been moved on the railroad before.
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I assume the car was dropped at Albert Lea MN by a westbound and now was on an east bound? Clark Propst
--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
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Re: CGW 1934 X29
brianleppert@att.net
I can find only one photo in the Color Guide that shows one of these cars WITHOUT its original Dalman trucks. #W85320 shows up on pages 106 and 107, photographed in 1978 with roller bearing Ride Control trucks. Other cars appearing in the book, photogrphed in 1967, 1980 and 1984, still have their Dalmans.
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The Summer, 1992 issue of North Western Lines had a seven page article on these box cars. Brian Leppert Carson City, NV
--- In STMFC@..., "mopacfirst" <ron.merrick@...> wrote:
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Re: Freight car Distribution
Paul <buygone@...>
Jeff:
Not so. Customer ordered a car/cars from the Car Distributor. Car Distributor issued an order to the yard for placing an empty/empties at a given industry. Car/cars were spotted. After loaded Industrial Clerk signed for the bill of lading and ordered car/cars pulled. Bill of lading was turned in to the Agents office and a waybill was typed out. Paul C. Koehler _____ From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Aley, Jeff A Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:01 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Freight car Distribution Tim, Tony Thompson can answer better than I can. But if I understood his clinic correctly, the Agent wrote the empty car order and waybill BEFORE the car was spotted for loading. So the waybill, with the car # typed on it, was already completed. Therefore, I conclude that if the industry randomly loads the car, the paperwork would have to be changed. On the other hand, concepts like "milling in transit" or other "diversions" can certainly have no a' priori knowledge of where the car will end up. Regards, -Jeff From: STMFC@yahoogroups. <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:30 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups. <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> com Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight car Distribution Jeff Aley wrote Viv,the ORER. Those rules indicate what cars should be used for loading. foreign-road cars for shipments that will travel off-line. They also state that foreign cars should be loaded toward their home road (or to any point beyond if the home road is part of the route). but certainly not "all" of the time. This is because of the (unwritten) rule 0: PROTECT THE SHIPMENT. Jeff Not to belabor this point, but let's suppose the railroad agent/clerk follows the AAR rules and sends a PRR, WABASH, SP and UP box car to a single shipper on the SP for loading -- with the intention that the PRR box car will be sent to the PRR, the WABASH car to that railroad, and so on. Now all four cars get shoved up to the shipper's dock. The shipper asked for four cars, and has his loads all prepared at their doors. The ORDER of the four cars is random -- the railroad certainly did not sort them according to each load's destination. So the shipper loads the 1st car, the 2nd car, etc -- without any regard to the ownership of the car!! How could it be otherwise? Can you imagine the shipper worrying about whether AAR rules are being followed properly? He just wants to get his shipments loaded. I don't know if the above scenario is true, but I've never heard any contradictory evidence. Looking at photos of railroad freight houses in the Chicago area, it sures looks like a dog's breakfast of cars was shoved onto the loading/unloading tracks, taking care only to line up the doorways for crossing via ramps between cars. Tim O'Connor
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Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic
Ah, but Dennis, suppose I shipped a box car of $100 bills to the bank,
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and withdrew it again as pennies? :-) Tim "infungible" O'Connor
I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to a nespaper article from 1890:
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Re: Freight car Distribution
Aley, Jeff A
Tim,
Tony Thompson can answer better than I can. But if I understood his clinic correctly, the Agent wrote the empty car order and waybill BEFORE the car was spotted for loading. So the waybill, with the car # typed on it, was already completed. Therefore, I conclude that if the industry randomly loads the car, the paperwork would have to be changed. On the other hand, concepts like "milling in transit" or other "diversions" can certainly have no a' priori knowledge of where the car will end up. Regards, -Jeff From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:30 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight car Distribution Jeff Aley wrote Viv,Jeff Not to belabor this point, but let's suppose the railroad agent/clerk follows the AAR rules and sends a PRR, WABASH, SP and UP box car to a single shipper on the SP for loading -- with the intention that the PRR box car will be sent to the PRR, the WABASH car to that railroad, and so on. Now all four cars get shoved up to the shipper's dock. The shipper asked for four cars, and has his loads all prepared at their doors. The ORDER of the four cars is random -- the railroad certainly did not sort them according to each load's destination. So the shipper loads the 1st car, the 2nd car, etc -- without any regard to the ownership of the car!! How could it be otherwise? Can you imagine the shipper worrying about whether AAR rules are being followed properly? He just wants to get his shipments loaded. I don't know if the above scenario is true, but I've never heard any contradictory evidence. Looking at photos of railroad freight houses in the Chicago area, it sures looks like a dog's breakfast of cars was shoved onto the loading/unloading tracks, taking care only to line up the doorways for crossing via ramps between cars. Tim O'Connor
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Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic
Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
"I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve an entirely new tariff?" It would always be that way, once the shipment leaves the transit point, the inbound bill(s) would be surrendered and the freight paid credited to the thru rate for the "new commodity" from the original origin. It could get complicated as you may be dealing with an outbound shipment that comprised product or tonnages from multiple origins into the transit station. I believe I saw some bills from five origins credited on one outbound bill. There were also time limits involved. Ross McLeod Calgary __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
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Freight car distribution - a Question
Hi,
A question for Mike Brock and/or the moderators of this group. Are discussions of model train layout "train make up" methods OK for this group? I'm talking about how our layout trains are manipulated/handled and how that relates to the G-N model and other such prototype activities. It is the other side of the same coin - but the focus would be more on how we do stuff like "set" a layout for a run ... and how that relates to what actually happened on the prototype ... rather than mostly about the prototype with hints at how that might be used on a layout. I realize that this doesn't fit the raison d'etre of this list exactly. But we keep dropping hints about stuff like how G-N might be used on our layouts in order to make up trains. So ... I'm asking ... perhaps we can open up this for some limited time such as just for one week? - Jim
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