Date   

Re: Freight car Distribution- Larry Kline

Larry Kline
 

I have been at the PRRT&HS Archives this week. I have been reading the emails on Freight car Distribution but I wanted to take some time and summarize my results for WM trains before I replied.

I just posted my comparison of the boxcar counts by railroad in WM and P&WV photos with the US boxcar fleet. There are four slides in the files section. They are in a folder called *Boxcar Counts WM & P&WV." Most of the photos I analyzed are from 1951 to 1953 with a few from 1947 to 1950 one from 1954 and one from 1956. Most of the WM photos were taken on the WM Connellsville PA to Cumberland MD line. This line was a bridge line with very little online industry.

I was able to identify 423 boxcars by railroad in the photos. The sample size is not very large, but I expect it to be reasonably random because I believe that the photographers photographed every train they could.

I have the following observations:
- Home road cars are very over represented with 37 WM boxcars or 8.8% in the boxcars in the photos compared with WM ownership of only 2,140 boxcars or 0.3% of the US fleet. Some of these WM boxcars are LCL cars in locals.
- For other US railroads, the results compare pretty well with the Gilbert - Nelson model
- Three roads that connect to the WM, the RDG, N&W and P&LE, are over represented. All of these roads had relatively large boxcar fleets. No P&WV boxcars appear in the photos, but the P&WV had only 200 boxcars.
- The PRR is over represented and the NYC is under represented. This surprised me because these two roads have about the same number of boxcars and the P&LE was owned by the NYC when the photos were taken.
- Canadian roads are under represented. This is probably due to the restrictions on the use of Canadian boxcars in the US.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Re: Milling in Transit

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

Dennis,

Thanks! One more question: I thought that Milling In Transit was somehow similar to "Diversion" in which a car might start its journey headed for New York City, and be changed en-route to be shipped to Los Angeles.
Is this kind of operation a part of Milling In Transit, or am I just confused?

Thanks,

-Jeff
Jeff,

Diversions were a totally different subject.

I had been hoping that Ross would chime in here, since he mentioned storage in transit, and I'm curious if this predates the Staggers Act of 1980 that changed the way railroads conduct their business, but I've decided it doesn't make any difference, because the basic precepts of ICC regulation was that nothing of value could be given away (lest it be given away such that if favored one group of shippers over another) and EVERYTHING had value. Heck, the ICC even found that the graphics painted on the outside of some refrigerator cars had value. So, if there was a provision for storage in transit during the steam era, it would have come at a price, and the purpose of playing the diversion game was to get something (storage for your product while you are trying to sell it) for free.

I'll also add the disclaimer that I'm no expert on railroad rate making, and in reality, thirty years after Staggers there are few people left who were placed highly enough in the pre-Staggers process to have had a full understanding, but my comments are based on conversations I've had with people over the years, both modelers and people who worked in industry. If anyone has better information, or wants ti correct points I make, feel free to do so; this is certainly not the last word on the subject.

There are legitimate reasons for a shipper to want to change where, or to whom, his shipment is delivered after it is under way. He may find that his customer's check bounced, or the customer has gone bankrupt, or even his customer's factory has burned to the ground. Recognizing that there are legitimate reasons for a shipper to divert a load, but requiring that all terms of railroad service be published publicly in the tariff, railroad tariffs had a clause that allowed a limited number of "diversions" of the load while in transit, the limited number being two, I believe. Once written into the tariff, people who sold commodities on commission, brokers, were able to use this provision to game the system to get free warehousing for their commodity while they sold it.

This is how the game was played, as I understand it. The broker could not send a car willy-nilly all over the US... well, he could, but would have to pay the local rate on each segment of the trip, which would be expensive. The idea was to pick an out of the way destination that had a through rate published to it, and pick a published route that was noted for its poor service. In this game, slowness, rather than speed, was desirable. Slowness could be enhanced by the number of times the car had to interchange between railroads, or go through yards where a single railroad had poor connections. The railroads, of course, didn't publicize that these were slow routes, but the brokers came to know over time which routes worked best for their purposes.

I also believe that the car did need a consignee named on the waybill, and it was most often the broker, care of the agent at the named destination. The broker was essentially shipping the load to himeslf, but in a different part of the country. Since the broker didn't have a business presence at that location, sending the car "care of" the agent would just get it spotted to the team track, and notification that he had two days to unload it before demurrage began to be charged. None of this was of any concern to the broker, as he had no intention of letting the car be delivered there.

The broker now has a couple weeks to sell the load. If priority perishable traffic could take seven days to cross the country, a poorly routed car of lumber could take two or maybe three times as long. The broker would try to sell the load in his western-most markets, shifting his efforts eastward as the car progressed. If the car was getting close to its destination and still hadn't sold, the broker would call the railroad and divert the car further east, again consigning it to himself, but at a different location.

When he did sell the car, he'd divert it once again, this time for actual delivery to his customer.

This sort of business, selling "rollers" as they were in transit, went on for years. There are occasional articles in the trade press decrying the capital costs of having all these cars tied up slowly moving across the country on less than optimum routings, but the railroads involved had no intention of cancellation these routings and losing the business, especially when most likely the capital costs were being paid by someone else. Staggers has changed all this, because railroads now can simply refuse unprofitable business, but that's now, and we're trying to model then.

Dennis


Re: Milling in Transit

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Jeff;

I am glad we got a more expert opinion. I am now hoping that someone can
direct us to some photos of the loading and unloading operations, so I can
finally do the bakery on my layout! They had a small retail storefront, a
large baking operation behind (2 stories), and a small siding out back. They
did not ship out by rail, but supplied product all over the area, under a
different name on the bag. I'd love to know if they got other raw materials
by rail.

I am also hoping that anyone that is interested could also supply some more
details about how they also did the unloading part at larger breweries,
pre-big-covered hopper days. I only saw it after they had changed over, and
it was clearly a between-the-tracks chute, over which they parked the hopper.
How the heck did they do it prior to that? Shovel the barley out the door
inside a building? It looks like it, as there were tracks into the
buildings, but it would be cool to know.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 11:41 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



Elden,

Thanks for expanding my knowledge about this. I really enjoy learning more
about grain and flour operations.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 4:51 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company (Nabisco
in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers came on
the scene, they got flour that way.

Can you imagine how contaminated that flour was? Yuck.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Elden,

Was this common? I thought flour was shipped in barrels or sacks, and not
loose, in bulk, in boxcars.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629

C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Freight car Distribution...help with ICC report

Frank Greene
 

Mike Aufderheide wrote:
The Monon logs do distinguish between XM ('B') and XA, XAP, XAR, XMR ('A') cars, though not all correctly. I haven't looked into it but I wonder if the car had double doors it was labled an 'A' weather the auxilliary door was active or not. The cars had a wide variety of loads. As a sample here are some from fall 1948:

At least as far as the Southern cars go, the Monon's designation of "A" cars was based on the double doors. But, whomever prepared the logs had no other visual references to go on because the Southern never identified their cars by class, like the PRR, UP, SP, ATSF, etc., and did not stencil the AAR mechanical designation on their cars until the late 1950s. Following from the July 1950 ORER:


SOU 272964 AUTOS

AAR Mech. Designation XMR; "Box, Auto, Stl. Stagg. Doors"; 40 ft 6 in IL, 12 ft 6 in door width; "Note L - Cars in series 272900-272999 are equipped with Automobile Loading Racks."


SOU 340282 LBR
AAR class XM; "Box, Stl. Frame, Stl. Staggered Doors"; 40 ft 6 in IL, 12 ft door width; no notes for special equipment.


SOU 375252 LIME
Number not in the ORER. Could it be 272252? If so:

AAR XM; "Box, Auto., Stl. Stagg. Doors; 40 ft 6 in, 12 ft 6 in doors; this number is not included in Notes AA "... equipped with racks for loading Fisher bodies and... AAR designation XAP" or CC "equipped for movement of Rayon and... AAR designation XMP".


SOU 148379 MDSE
AAR XM; "Box, Steel Frame, Staggered Doors"; 40 ft 6 in, 12 ft doors; this number not included in Note W "... equipped for movement of Rayon and... XMP".


SOU 272617 REFGRS
Same as 272252.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: Milling in Transit

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Dennis said that better than I could, and I would only add that I have seen
correspondence that indicated the "what" in what contaminants were, in box
cars, I suspect for those loads not bagged or barreled, and you don't want to
know....

The road had to eat the cost themselves, for loads refused, so there were
periodic campaigns to find those cars that could be categorized "clean".
Some road stenciled "clean loading only", some like NYC had a star, or "A" on
a yellow dot, etc. That practice seemed to vary a lot.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
soolinehistory
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 1:54 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Milling in Transit





--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Gatwood,
Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars
with powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I
once asked a guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he
worked a summer in which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a
conveyor. I trust the story was true. I also knew a guy that worked
for National Biscuit company (Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the
days before the big covered hoppers came on the scene, they got flour that
way.

A while back James Dick of the NP Historical Society sent me copies of a
bunch of 1920's era correspondence from the NP files (some of it concerned
Soo Line cars and was of interest to me) concerning damage to flour loads
from the Minneapolis milling distraict caused by water condensing on the
inside of unlined steel roofs and dripping on the load. In this
correspondence both loads of bagged flour and bulk loads were mentioned.

I suspect that bagged flour went to consignees who now receive bagged flour
by truck, while bulk loads went to volume customers that now receive Airslide
hoppers.

Dennis


Re: Milling in Transit

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company
(Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers
came on the scene, they got flour that way.
A while back James Dick of the NP Historical Society sent me copies of a bunch of 1920's era correspondence from the NP files (some of it concerned Soo Line cars and was of interest to me) concerning damage to flour loads from the Minneapolis milling distraict caused by water condensing on the inside of unlined steel roofs and dripping on the load. In this correspondence both loads of bagged flour and bulk loads were mentioned.

I suspect that bagged flour went to consignees who now receive bagged flour by truck, while bulk loads went to volume customers that now receive Airslide hoppers.

Dennis


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Tim O'Connor
 

Sherman? On the old main line -- before the Harriman cutoff was built?

I'm puzzled -- the UP ran COSF, Overland, Fast Mail, COLA, Challenger,
COStL, Portland Rose at least -- 7 daily passenger trains, 2 in each
direction -- so you are saying the UP only ran (at most) 17 freights a
day through Wyoming?

Tim O'Connor

Mike, the data Mark gave me is not a conductor book. It is a listing of the passenger and freight trains that passed Sherman on June 4 and 5, 1949. Their were 16 EB and 15 WB on the 4th, 17 EB and 15 WB on the 5th.

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Tim O'Connor
 

I'm looking at the first train listing, it gives train # etc --
566 (Laramie) to 683 (Rawlins) -- so this is a westbound correct?

Tim O'

Tim, why don't you just look at the 1951 book yourself and tell us
what you find? Scanned pages and an Excel transcription are online
at www.laramiedepot.org


Re: Milling in Transit

Aley, Jeff A
 

Elden,

Thanks for expanding my knowledge about this. I really enjoy learning more about grain and flour operations.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 4:51 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company
(Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers
came on the scene, they got flour that way.

Can you imagine how contaminated that flour was? Yuck.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Elden,

Was this common? I thought flour was shipped in barrels or sacks, and not
loose, in bulk, in boxcars.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis


AAR Mechanical Designation Requirement

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 4/16/2010 10:13:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
frgreene290@... writes:


and did not stencil the AAR mechanical designation on their cars until
the
late 1950s.
Frank,

The AAR mechanical designation was not required on cars in interchange
until January 1, 1959. On and after that date all cars built new, rebuilt or
repainted were required to display the designation. Tank cars were exempt for
obvious reasons.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

Ok, you're wearing me down :-) I dismiss the 1938 books as irrelevant,
Why?

but if you show a consistency from 1949-1956 then I think it's worth
some digging down and trying to find out WHY SP box cars were so much
more common on the UP than random distribution would predict.
Well, I can understand the curiosity factor but, in my case, I don't really care why...except as an academic exercise. It might be analogous to the UP grey paint scheme on steam locomotives and passenger cars. If you are a modeler of UP, the primary issues are the paint scheme characteristics, when it took effect and when it ended...when were loco's painted in the scheme and when they were painted black after it ended. The "why" is secondary.

Tim also writes:

"I have an SP conductor's book, and it's great. But I'm
just not so comfortable with trying to extrapolate a lot about distribution
of box cars in the USA from a small number of these books."

Agreed. Same with the UP frt conductor books. However, in my own case I'm not really interested in trying to find a "formula" for predicting the frt car distribution across the USA. I'm trying to project the make up of a relatively small number of trains [ 8 ] operating over Sherman Hill for a very small time period...3 hrs in one day and, perhaps, 3 days [ not contiguous ]. The "formula" for widespread distribution is interesting and I'm curious about it but I don't need it to generate train consists to simulate the traffic on Sherman Hill in the spring of 1954. The frt conductor books do that quite well.

Mike Brock


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Wendye Ware
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Larry

Ok, you have 120 trains, 7000 cars, 2400 box cars right? Or 20 box
cars per train (on average)?

Here's a simple, straightforward probability calculation --

Let's say 4 out of 100 box cars is owned by SP or T&NO. (I checked my 1940
ORER, the two combined owned 27,740 box, automobile & furniture cars.)

So what is the random chance of a 20 box car freight train with ZERO
SP/TNO box cars?

It's just .96**20 or .44 -- a 44% random chance. Or in other words, with the
SP/TNO owning 4% of the fleet, a 20 box car train has a 56% chance that it will
have -at least one- SP/TNO box car. (It could have 2 or more of course.)

The statistic that we have been discussing is "expectation" -- what is the
"expected" (or average number) of SP box cars. G-N says it is 0.8 (.04*20),
but in your data set of 120 trains it is 1.6 (200/120). Now recall that
probability of at least 1 car -- 56%. The population -difference- between the
observed and expected number in your sample (of 4.5% of freight trains) is
less than 1 car per train. This is why I said it -could- be explained by
random chance, especially since the data set is so small. We both agree
that the recession of 1938 also could skew the data.

Yes, it is highly frustrating to us because we have so little data. We can
certainly learn a lot from conductor's reports -- about cargos, destinations,
composition of individual freight trains, all kinds of operational stuff that
is wonderful to know. I have an SP conductor's book, and it's great. But I'm
just not so comfortable with trying to extrapolate a lot about distribution
of box cars in the USA from a small number of these books. I know Dave and
Tim Gilbert used a lot of other sources.

Tim O'Connor


Hi Tim

The actual percentage of SP cars from the ORER in 1938 is 3.3%, not the 4% you assume. There are 1,308 non-UP box cars, which I believe is the relevant number, not your 2,400. This gives an average number of non-UP box cars per train of about 11, not 20. Based on G-N the expected number of SP cars in the train books is 44, versus the 201 actually found. Thus each of the 120 trains would have to have at least one additional car.

Getting that extra car in each train isn't as easy as it seems. If the process is random, as you hypothesize, 83 of the trains won't have any SP car at all; 31 will have one SP car, 5 or 6 will have two, 1 will have 3. Having more than 3 is too remote to consider. (We can discuss how I obtained these numbers off list if you want – I expect it is of little interest to the group.)

The easiest way to get an extra car (i.e., the way with the greatest likelihood of success) is to add one to each of the 83 trains with no car at all because it is analogous to winning a bet in which the odds are only 83 to 31 against you. Other conversions give you worse odds. Of course winning each and every time for 83 times in succession is highly unlikely – it would be far easier to come up with heads every time in 83 coin tosses – but even if you were to do so you would only have 83 more cars, for a total of 127 SP box cars. You would still need another 74. It can't be done in a million years.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
 

Tim O'Conner writes: I think it's worth some digging down and trying to find out WHY SP box cars were so much more common on the
UP than random distribution would predict.

Uhh, Tim have you looked at a map? The SP coming out of Central California did not have to many interchange partners on the east
end. Far different then what one finds east of the Mississippi. Fewer interchange partners are going to skew the results in my
opinion. What I find interesting in all this is no discussion of UP boxcars on the SP. Did this not happen?

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: CGW 1934 X29

Clark Propst
 

Ron, are you modeling the CGW where you would need several of these car or do you just want one of two?

If you needed 10 or 12 of them then, yes, I'd go for typical. If you only want 1 or 2 then I'd use the Tahoe trucks the number series came with.

I looked at my b/w photos. I have a black renumbered 'merchandise' car riding on Dalmans.

Clark Propst


Re: Milling in Transit

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company
(Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers
came on the scene, they got flour that way.

Can you imagine how contaminated that flour was? Yuck.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



Elden,

Was this common? I thought flour was shipped in barrels or sacks, and not
loose, in bulk, in boxcars.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Wendye Ware
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Larry Ostrech writes:

"Tim Gilbert pointed out that the percentage of home road cars staying
on-line greatly increased throughout the depression years, and so the
distribution of cars nationwide was quite different in 1949 than in 1938.
The more-or-less uniform distribution of plain box cars is far more apparent
in the late 1940's than in the late 1930's."

I'm not clear on this. Where does this come from?
Mike, Tim O'connor wrote this, not me. You'll have to ask him where it comes from.

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Freight car Distribution

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Paul--

I'm afraid that this may turn into a tangential discussion, but here we go.

Yard limits were an operating rules provision only, applying to main track per operating Rule 93. Definition from an online 1985 GCOR, but previous operating rulebooks cited similar wording----

"Yard Limits
A portion of the main track, designated by yard limit signs and timetable, train order Form T, or track bulletin, which trains and engines may use as prescribed by Rule 93."

Many road crews did switching within yard limits, and many yard crews went outside of yard limits to serve customers, under train order, ABS, APB, and/or CTC rules. While operating rules discussions may be outside the purview of STMFC, I ask the leave of our Moderator for this post for purposes of claification. You're welcome to write me off-list for further discussion.

Steve Lucas

--- In STMFC@..., "Paul" <buygone@...> wrote:

Tim:



First you need to know is the industry located within the switching limits
of a city or out on the road. If in a city you didn't have a conductor but
a switch Forman. With in yard limits you had switchman working outside the
limits you had brakeman and conductor. Within the city the switch Forman
would spot the car from a switch list. In road territory the conductor
would have an empty car waybill, the same for moving an empty car across the
railroad to deliver to another city or connecting carrier.



Paul C. Koehler



_____


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Wendye Ware
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Larry Ostrech writes:

"Mark Amfahr's data showed that 30 - 33 freight trains per day crossed
Sherman Hill in 1949."

Actually, so that members aren't confused, there is only one known frt
conductor book covering Laramie-Rawlins in 1949...the one I have. I gave a
copy to Mark. And, actually, it's 34 trains. Interesting trains...at that.
Mike, the data Mark gave me is not a conductor book. It is a listing of the passenger and freight trains that passed Sherman on June 4 and 5, 1949. Their were 16 EB and 15 WB on the 4th, 17 EB and 15 WB on the 5th.

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Wendye Ware
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Mike

Ok, you're wearing me down :-) I dismiss the 1938 books as irrelevant,
but if you show a consistency from 1949-1956 then I think it's worth
some digging down and trying to find out WHY SP box cars were so much
more common on the UP than random distribution would predict. First I
would seek to know what percent of the SP cars were loaded, and what
percents loaded EB/WB. Answers to those might lead further inquiries
in a useful direction...

Tim O'Connor


But, Tim, all of the 1938, 1949, 1951, and 1956 books show SP box cars on
the UP to be present MUCH more than projected by G-N.

Mike Brock
Tim, why don't you just look at the 1951 book yourself and tell us what you find? Scanned pages and an Excel transcription are online at www.laramiedepot.org

Why are the 1938 books irrelevant?

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: MD&S' / SAL's Magor Pulpwood Cars

John Degnan <Scaler164@...>
 

Denis,

A gondola is good for a wood rack? How's that? Did I miss something? The cars I'm talking about are pulpwood cars...


John Degnan
Scaler164@...

----- Original Message -----
From: Denis Blake
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: MD&S' / SAL's Magor Pulpwood Cars


Tim

And the WrightTRAK SAL lowside gon is good for that car and also includes
MD&S lettering in the decal set.

Denis Blake

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:15 AM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: MD&S' / SAL's Magor Pulpwood Cars

>
> According to Ed's book, the cars were purchased by the SAL but lettered
> for MD&S. Unfortunately there is no photo. They were Lot W-3689. Also
> listed as SAL purchased, MD&S lettered, are gondolas 4000-4009 built
> 11-1956, just one month before the pulpwood cars.
>
> Tim O'Connor
>
>
> At 4/15/2010 09:07 AM Thursday, you wrote:
>>Hi John,
>>
>>I don't have an answer and don't recall seeing anything in the CBCs. I
>>would make an educated guess that the MD&S cars were part of a larger SAL
>>order (MD&S did a lot of "tag-along" orders with SAL in previous years).
>>
>>When trying to find information in cases like these, I go straight to the
>>experts. Ed Kaminski recently authored a book on the Magor Car Co., so you
>>might want to contact him to see if he knows anything. SAL had a good
>>working relationship with Magor.
>>
>>Our man at Signature Press might be able to provide contact info if you
>>can't find anything.
>>
>>John Golden
>>Bloomington, IN
>>
>>
>>
>>--- In STMFC@..., "John Degnan" <Scaler164@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am desperately searching for information or drawings or photos of a
>>> series of 25 pulpwood cars built in 1956 by Magor Car for the Macon,
>>> Dublin & Savannah Railroad. These cars were numbered 5000-5024 on the
>>> MD&S, and ended up on the Seaboard Air Line around 1958 when the SAL
>>> absorbed the road with road numbers 42900-42924.
>>>
>>> The ONLY photo I have ever found of these cars is of one in SAL
>>> lettering... car # 42901, seen at the top of page 96 of Paul Faulk's SAL
>>> Color Guide.
>>>
>>> Is anyone else familiar with these cars? Got any info? Drawing? General
>>> dimensions? Photos? Or anything else pertaining to these cars that I can
>>> beg, borrow, purchase?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>> John Degnan
>>> Scaler164@...
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



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