Date   

Re: AAR Mechanical Designation Requirement

Frank Greene
 

benjaminfrank_hom wrote:
Frank Greene wrote:
"I wasn't sure whether this was a new requirement or the Southern
decided to comply with an existing recommendation (i.e., they didn't
use reporting marks, although the AAR had recommended them for years -
they did letter SOUTHERN above the number, which apparently satisfied
the other RRs)."

What's so odd about this? The AAR allowed the name of the railroad as a substitute for reporting marks. Other examples included PRR, B&O, SP, SOO, and SAL.


Ben Hom
Didn't say it was odd. Didn't say they were unique. They just didn't comply with the letter of the recommendation. Didn't paint lines above and below, either.

I'll concede that the Soo did, although it's difficult to tell whether they intended to spell their name out or use it as a reporting mark. :-) And, each of the others you cite complied at some time or another.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: AAR Mechanical Designation Requirement

Benjamin Hom
 

Frank Greene wrote:
"I wasn't sure whether this was a new requirement or the Southern
decided to comply with an existing recommendation (i.e., they didn't
use reporting marks, although the AAR had recommended them for years -
they did letter SOUTHERN above the number, which apparently satisfied
the other RRs)."

What's so odd about this? The AAR allowed the name of the railroad as a substitute for reporting marks. Other examples included PRR, B&O, SP, SOO, and SAL.


Ben Hom


(Available now in N-scale from GHQ models) CNR 8-hatch refrigerator car kits!

Michael Livingston <livingston@...>
 

Hello all,

I am very pleased to announce that GHQ models has released N-scale Canadian 8-hatch refrigerator cars in N-scale; specifically a three car kit of Canadian National Railways (CNR) 209500-209999 Steel overhead ice bunker 8-hatch refrigerator cars.

The model best represents the first 500 cars built in four orders between 1939 and 1945 with dreadnaught ends, wood roof walks, and hinged doors; numbered 209500-209999, although these kits may be used to build some later versions and other railroad variations with some modifications.

Check out the first of my in-depth multi-part series on these cars on the GHQ N-scale forum at:

<http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3596&view>

The articles contain detailed information that would apply to any scale.

The first installment looks at where Canadian 8-hatch reefers were seen in U.S. service, what sometimes bizarre commodities they carried (like live bees and ball bearings!), and why you should have a few of these versatile cars on your North American railroad even if you don't model the CNR or Canadian RRs at all (for us Canadian modelers, I expect that we won't need convincing!).

<http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3597&view>

The second article provides details about the car kits and how to assemble, paint, and decal them. I was very excited to be a part of the research, decal development, and release of GHQ's three-car kit of CNR steel overhead ice bunker 8-hatch reefers in N-scale. The kit builds three cars and includes resin castings, brass etched details, pewter cast floors, and custom decals.

In the third and fourth parts of this series I'll cover CNR reefer paint schemes in detail, showing what schemes were used and when they may have been seen on these cars in any given year between 1939 and 1952 in great detail. It will also detail specfic US location sightings on trains an RRs to better show you how to fit these into your region. Then I'll look at how to create a Canadian Pacific car design using the CNR model as a starting point.

More N-scale CNR reefer decals will be available for earlier and later eras as well as for passenger service, based to some degree on interest and feedback. It is my intention to eventually create decals that will allow you to model these refrigerator cars in any period from the beginning of World War II to the late 1980s, but which ones come first will be based on what you are asking for the most.

Any feedback would be welcome. I am hoping that this release will demonstrate that Canadian railway modelers are still kit builders and that it motivates GHQ to develop more unique Canadian offerings.

You can buy the set for US$49.95 plus shipping right now at:

<http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/zm18.html>

Best regards,
Michael Livingston
odeling southern Ontario in N-scale (from Minnesota)


Re: AAR Mechanical Designation Requirement

Frank Greene
 

guycwilber@... wrote:
The AAR mechanical designation was not required on cars in interchange until January 1, 1959. On and after that date all cars built new, rebuilt or repainted were required to display the designation. Tank cars were exempt for obvious reasons.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

Thanks. I knew the Southern revised stencil drawings for the designations about that time and was working from memory. I wasn't sure whether this was a new requirement or the Southern decided to comply with an existing recommendation (i.e., they didn't use reporting marks, although the AAR had recommended them for years - they did letter SOUTHERN above the number, which apparently satisfied the other RRs).

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Wendye Ware
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Sherman? On the old main line -- before the Harriman cutoff was built?
Sherman on the ca. 1901 Harriman line. Highest point on the transcon, but 234 feet lower than Old Sherman. There was a station there through the 1950s, now it is long gone. Mainline tracks 1 & 2 use this route, typically eastbound but there is a substantial amount of westbound traffic as well. There is still a Y and a sign about "highest point".

I'm puzzled -- the UP ran COSF, Overland, Fast Mail, COLA, Challenger,
COStL, Portland Rose at least -- 7 daily passenger trains, 2 in each
direction -- so you are saying the UP only ran (at most) 17 freights a
day through Wyoming?

Tim O'Connor

Mark's files include the passenger traffic as well, and it was substantial. Freight traffic on June 4 was 16 EB and 15 WB as I say below. "EB" means "East Bound" and "WB" means "West Bound". There were 16+15=31 freights recorded on June 4, 1949. Similarly, there were 17+15=32 freights on June 5, 1949.

Larry Ostresh


Mike, the data Mark gave me is not a conductor book. It is a listing of the passenger and freight trains that passed Sherman on June 4 and 5, 1949. Their were 16 EB and 15 WB on the 4th, 17 EB and 15 WB on the 5th.

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Milling in Transit

Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
 

MIT - Traffic was initially billed to a transit station and had to be referenced as such on the bill of lading. There is a time limit on transit which I can't recall off the top but it would be something like 2yrs, (it varied by commodities) which meant to make use of the inbound rate when the shipment was billed ex the transit station you had to surrender a bill within that period to receive credit for the rate paid inbound against the outbound move. You could surrender parts of the bill ie some of the inbound tonnage or all of it, if you had tonnage left over you would use it against a future outbound shipment. On the outbound move you could surrender inbound billing from multiple origins, I am referring to grain here other transit such a creosoting poles etc was usually one for one.
 
Transit certainly predates Staggers, most railroad pricing probably dates from the period of this list. I have recently seen some correspondence on EBAY to the Great  Northern from shippers in British Columbia that dates from the 1920's, in my experience really not much different that subjects I worked on when I joined the Freight Traffic department in 1969, then renamed Marketing & Sales.  
 
Tariffs we used where of varying ages, none of the ratings to and from the US were ever at end level, you always had to apply Ex Parte increases to determine the final/current rate. The railroads and rate bureaus did not automatically update their publications and at one point the ICC forced them to apply updates or lose the increases but at that they was still something like four or five Ex Parte increases to be applied to the rate shown in the tariffs.
 
Diversions, MIT, supplying of speciality cars etc are all considered as "privileges" and are therefore chargeable. My own opinion was the if rate makers had to use the tariffs they published rates in the whole mess would have been updated in short order but again finding your way thru the mass of paper and obsolete rates to get the best published rate was the mark of a good rate adviser and the rate makers response to end level rates was that the increases could change after their initial publication therefore they could have left  monies on the table.
 
All tariffs have their own rules and regulations as well they are governed by the classification which on US traffic is the Uniform Freight Classification. I don't recall the exact rule number but the Omnibus clause is the one that calls MIT and diversions a privilege and is the basis for railroads making a charge for this service.
 
As for diversions, usually you could have only one. In Canada we had eastern and western rules tariffs each having their own diversion item therefore some shippers would try to divert the same car twice if it move across the country. I imagine they tried multiple diversions on cars they were in trouble with on the connecting railroad if the they had no success with the origin carrier. Obviously a problem for the roads accounting departments.
 
As for lumber if you billed a lumber shipment "for orders" to a recognized order point you were telling the railways that they could expect a change in destination. The charge for this service was slightly less than the normal diversion charge and you would avoid demurrage charges but would have to pay track storage charges after 72hrs.
 
For the most part other diversions were more of the nature of the consignees credit issues, over supply of product, strikes etc. Lumber was buying and selling on the roll. 
 
A mill might ship say ten cars for car of which they had five sales of their own, the balance they would put out on the brokerage market and the brokers would spend their day calling lumber yards trying to sell the rollers. They would never want the mill to find out who their customer was for fear of being cut out of future sales so even if they had a sale when they initially purchased the car from the mill they would consign the car to themselves and "release/reconsign" it thru the carriers to their customers. A charge which was I think approx half the diversion charge was made for this, basically just an accounting charge as the destination was not changed, if the destination was changed or the routing then it was a diversion. 
 
As to routings, they were slow routes that some brokers would use, either because they expected the price of lumber to rise or they might be unsure of the receiver ability to pay. Adding multiple carriers to a routing of course means the carriers have to divide the thru rate into many pieces therefore likely a move that none of the carriers actually made money on.
 
Lumber was a very labour intensive move for the carriers which they actively solicited. Many
US roads had offices in Vancouver specifically for this business as well the travellers from Seattle would call on the traffic people at the lumber brokers and railroads.
 
One of my predecessors showed me the sign he had on his desk when a saleman would call - "No loot - no route".   

Ross McLeod Calgary

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Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Wendye Ware
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I'm looking at the first train listing, it gives train # etc --
566 (Laramie) to 683 (Rawlins) -- so this is a westbound correct?

Tim O'

Tim, why don't you just look at the 1951 book yourself and tell us
what you find? Scanned pages and an Excel transcription are online
at www.laramiedepot.org
Yes, you are correct.
Larry Ostresh


Re: Freight car Distribution- Larry Kline

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Larry Kline <lndkline@...> wrote:

I have been at the PRRT&HS Archives this week. I have been reading the emails on Freight car Distribution but I wanted to take some time and summarize my results for WM trains before I replied.

I have the following observations:
....

- The PRR is over represented and the NYC is under represented. This surprised me because these two roads have about the same number of boxcars and the P&LE was owned by the NYC when the photos were taken.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA
Larry,

To my mind this is not that surprising. Your data provides another good confirmation of the N-G at the overall level, but as many have remarked here, there are reasons for local variations.

Do you have the data sorted by direction?

As the PRR and NYC were near mortal enemies, I still believe that an empty NYC box car in the eastern portion of the PRR system would be expeditiously sent home. Why pay THEM per diem, and why load a car for them?

I would think this would cause local deviations, for extended periods, from the expected N-G type distribution, at least in certain directions and at locations near an interchange.

The PRR was in the WM's backyard, and vice versa. It is not surprising to me that lots of PRR box cars were headed out from the PRR service territory on the WM to hit customers in the Western MD, Western VA, and West Virginia areas.

I view this as a funnel effect. As long as empties were headed home, and home roads had enough empties on hand to preferentially load their cars over immediately adjacent competitors (who's cars could quickly be sent home), it stands to reason that there is a funnel effect near each interchange point with that road. IN the extreme, at the actual point of interchange, it seems reasonable that a disproportionate number of MTYs will be delivered to the other road. Otherwise how could their cars get home? As an engineer, this is a simple continuity of mass equation.

This effect may be harder to notice for a small road - WM box cars were not that many such that a PRR railfan in Harrisburg might notice more of them than N-G would predict, but someone on the WM might think they were surrounded by the PRR - there fleet was so HUGE to begin with. (And they were at least partially surrounded!)

But this lack of NYC MTY's on the PRR would also lead to a dearth of NYC box cars heading south onto the WM. Any loaded NYC car destined for the same customers might take a very different route than a PRR loaded car (plus I do not think the NYC service territory had the quantity of industrial customers generating loads that the PRR had.)

When looking at PRR photos on the mainline west of Harrisburg, I am continuously struck by the tiny number of NYC boxcars heading WB. I think this is a similar local effect. Why would an MTY NYC box car in Harrisburg EVER be sent west. Since the westbound mainline PRR traffic had a significant percentage of MTY's, it stands to reason that NYC cars would be noticeably under-represented (there might still be some loads).

Regards,
Dave Evans


Re: CGW 1934 X29

mopacfirst
 

No problem - I can recognize those cars because I added the reporting marks on the hatches at the time I did the swap.

These were two cars released in 2009 or possibly 2008. One was a Texas Chief Rr-28 and the other was an Rr-23, both in the straight map scheme. The Rr-28 and after should have platforms that do not surround the hatch, so the corner grabs are in the roof proper, while earlier cars had platforms that surrounded the hatch and had the corner grabs attached to the platform.

Photos in Hendrickson's Santa Fe reefer book, p. 133 and 141, are especially useful in showing the difference.

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Ron Merrick wrote:
Getting farther off the subject, I did a neat exchange a few months
ago. I bought two IM Santa Fe reefers at different times, came to
realize the roof (platforming around the hatches, specifically) was
wrong on each one - but was right for the other car! Took me about
ten minutes to get the complete roof off of each car, swap them and
re-glue. Thank you, Richard, for the descriptions and illustrations
that were precise enough for me to grasp this difference.
Ron, can you tell us which classes were involved? Some of the
rest of us may need to do something similar.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: CGW 1934 X29

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ron Merrick wrote:
Getting farther off the subject, I did a neat exchange a few months ago. I bought two IM Santa Fe reefers at different times, came to realize the roof (platforming around the hatches, specifically) was wrong on each one - but was right for the other car! Took me about ten minutes to get the complete roof off of each car, swap them and re-glue. Thank you, Richard, for the descriptions and illustrations that were precise enough for me to grasp this difference.
Ron, can you tell us which classes were involved? Some of the rest of us may need to do something similar.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: CGW 1934 X29

mopacfirst
 

I'm modeling the MoPac in Kansas in the 1960-65 period. That means I need a lot of 40' boxcars, preferably with 6' doors, that followed the grain traffic. I personally observed the fact that these were mostly from Midwest roads, hence my desire for this type of car. So when I picked up an RC car, I saw that it had the Accurail trucks that almost all IM cars now come with, and glanced at the CGW book, and concluded that the original trucks were correct. I undoubtedly pulled the trucks and painted them red, since that's the state of the car now. Then I followed this thread and looked more closely at the book, and eventually concluded that this pair of trucks was not right. I do have a pair of the correct trucks in inventory, so they've been painted and are going on the car shortly. Thanks, Brian, for making stuff that improves my modeling.

BTW, I think I have a permanent supply of the Accurail AAR double-truss truck. I used to buy kits, so I'd toss the molded truck frames into the parts drawer, then when I needed a pair of them I'd put IM wheelsets in them and go. But, more cars came with them, improperly, than different cars for which I needed that truck. The MoPac 45' gons made by F&C are an example of the models that those trucks went under.

But, now, I buy an IM assembled car, strip the trucks and toss them into the same parts drawer and get whatever the proper truck is, the Barber truck that comes in many Branchline kits, or a Tahoe truck, or a Kato, etc. So I no longer even have to bother installing wheelsets in those Accurail trucks when I need a pair - they're just sitting there waiting for me. That pile is even bigger than the pile of plastic knuckle couplers that I'm going to throw out someday.

Getting farther off the subject, I did a neat exchange a few months ago. I bought two IM Santa Fe reefers at different times, came to realize the roof (platforming around the hatches, specifically) was wrong on each one - but was right for the other car! Took me about ten minutes to get the complete roof off of each car, swap them and re-glue. Thank you, Richard, for the descriptions and illustrations that were precise enough for me to grasp this difference.

Ron Merrick


--- In STMFC@..., "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:


Ron, are you modeling the CGW where you would need several of these car or do you just want one of two?
<snip>

Clark Propst


Re: Freight car Distribution- Larry Kline

Larry Kline
 

I have been at the PRRT&HS Archives this week. I have been reading the emails on Freight car Distribution but I wanted to take some time and summarize my results for WM trains before I replied.

I just posted my comparison of the boxcar counts by railroad in WM and P&WV photos with the US boxcar fleet. There are four slides in the files section. They are in a folder called *Boxcar Counts WM & P&WV." Most of the photos I analyzed are from 1951 to 1953 with a few from 1947 to 1950 one from 1954 and one from 1956. Most of the WM photos were taken on the WM Connellsville PA to Cumberland MD line. This line was a bridge line with very little online industry.

I was able to identify 423 boxcars by railroad in the photos. The sample size is not very large, but I expect it to be reasonably random because I believe that the photographers photographed every train they could.

I have the following observations:
- Home road cars are very over represented with 37 WM boxcars or 8.8% in the boxcars in the photos compared with WM ownership of only 2,140 boxcars or 0.3% of the US fleet. Some of these WM boxcars are LCL cars in locals.
- For other US railroads, the results compare pretty well with the Gilbert - Nelson model
- Three roads that connect to the WM, the RDG, N&W and P&LE, are over represented. All of these roads had relatively large boxcar fleets. No P&WV boxcars appear in the photos, but the P&WV had only 200 boxcars.
- The PRR is over represented and the NYC is under represented. This surprised me because these two roads have about the same number of boxcars and the P&LE was owned by the NYC when the photos were taken.
- Canadian roads are under represented. This is probably due to the restrictions on the use of Canadian boxcars in the US.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Re: Milling in Transit

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

Dennis,

Thanks! One more question: I thought that Milling In Transit was somehow similar to "Diversion" in which a car might start its journey headed for New York City, and be changed en-route to be shipped to Los Angeles.
Is this kind of operation a part of Milling In Transit, or am I just confused?

Thanks,

-Jeff
Jeff,

Diversions were a totally different subject.

I had been hoping that Ross would chime in here, since he mentioned storage in transit, and I'm curious if this predates the Staggers Act of 1980 that changed the way railroads conduct their business, but I've decided it doesn't make any difference, because the basic precepts of ICC regulation was that nothing of value could be given away (lest it be given away such that if favored one group of shippers over another) and EVERYTHING had value. Heck, the ICC even found that the graphics painted on the outside of some refrigerator cars had value. So, if there was a provision for storage in transit during the steam era, it would have come at a price, and the purpose of playing the diversion game was to get something (storage for your product while you are trying to sell it) for free.

I'll also add the disclaimer that I'm no expert on railroad rate making, and in reality, thirty years after Staggers there are few people left who were placed highly enough in the pre-Staggers process to have had a full understanding, but my comments are based on conversations I've had with people over the years, both modelers and people who worked in industry. If anyone has better information, or wants ti correct points I make, feel free to do so; this is certainly not the last word on the subject.

There are legitimate reasons for a shipper to want to change where, or to whom, his shipment is delivered after it is under way. He may find that his customer's check bounced, or the customer has gone bankrupt, or even his customer's factory has burned to the ground. Recognizing that there are legitimate reasons for a shipper to divert a load, but requiring that all terms of railroad service be published publicly in the tariff, railroad tariffs had a clause that allowed a limited number of "diversions" of the load while in transit, the limited number being two, I believe. Once written into the tariff, people who sold commodities on commission, brokers, were able to use this provision to game the system to get free warehousing for their commodity while they sold it.

This is how the game was played, as I understand it. The broker could not send a car willy-nilly all over the US... well, he could, but would have to pay the local rate on each segment of the trip, which would be expensive. The idea was to pick an out of the way destination that had a through rate published to it, and pick a published route that was noted for its poor service. In this game, slowness, rather than speed, was desirable. Slowness could be enhanced by the number of times the car had to interchange between railroads, or go through yards where a single railroad had poor connections. The railroads, of course, didn't publicize that these were slow routes, but the brokers came to know over time which routes worked best for their purposes.

I also believe that the car did need a consignee named on the waybill, and it was most often the broker, care of the agent at the named destination. The broker was essentially shipping the load to himeslf, but in a different part of the country. Since the broker didn't have a business presence at that location, sending the car "care of" the agent would just get it spotted to the team track, and notification that he had two days to unload it before demurrage began to be charged. None of this was of any concern to the broker, as he had no intention of letting the car be delivered there.

The broker now has a couple weeks to sell the load. If priority perishable traffic could take seven days to cross the country, a poorly routed car of lumber could take two or maybe three times as long. The broker would try to sell the load in his western-most markets, shifting his efforts eastward as the car progressed. If the car was getting close to its destination and still hadn't sold, the broker would call the railroad and divert the car further east, again consigning it to himself, but at a different location.

When he did sell the car, he'd divert it once again, this time for actual delivery to his customer.

This sort of business, selling "rollers" as they were in transit, went on for years. There are occasional articles in the trade press decrying the capital costs of having all these cars tied up slowly moving across the country on less than optimum routings, but the railroads involved had no intention of cancellation these routings and losing the business, especially when most likely the capital costs were being paid by someone else. Staggers has changed all this, because railroads now can simply refuse unprofitable business, but that's now, and we're trying to model then.

Dennis


Re: Milling in Transit

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Jeff;

I am glad we got a more expert opinion. I am now hoping that someone can
direct us to some photos of the loading and unloading operations, so I can
finally do the bakery on my layout! They had a small retail storefront, a
large baking operation behind (2 stories), and a small siding out back. They
did not ship out by rail, but supplied product all over the area, under a
different name on the bag. I'd love to know if they got other raw materials
by rail.

I am also hoping that anyone that is interested could also supply some more
details about how they also did the unloading part at larger breweries,
pre-big-covered hopper days. I only saw it after they had changed over, and
it was clearly a between-the-tracks chute, over which they parked the hopper.
How the heck did they do it prior to that? Shovel the barley out the door
inside a building? It looks like it, as there were tracks into the
buildings, but it would be cool to know.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 11:41 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



Elden,

Thanks for expanding my knowledge about this. I really enjoy learning more
about grain and flour operations.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 4:51 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company (Nabisco
in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers came on
the scene, they got flour that way.

Can you imagine how contaminated that flour was? Yuck.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Elden,

Was this common? I thought flour was shipped in barrels or sacks, and not
loose, in bulk, in boxcars.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629

C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Freight car Distribution...help with ICC report

Frank Greene
 

Mike Aufderheide wrote:
The Monon logs do distinguish between XM ('B') and XA, XAP, XAR, XMR ('A') cars, though not all correctly. I haven't looked into it but I wonder if the car had double doors it was labled an 'A' weather the auxilliary door was active or not. The cars had a wide variety of loads. As a sample here are some from fall 1948:

At least as far as the Southern cars go, the Monon's designation of "A" cars was based on the double doors. But, whomever prepared the logs had no other visual references to go on because the Southern never identified their cars by class, like the PRR, UP, SP, ATSF, etc., and did not stencil the AAR mechanical designation on their cars until the late 1950s. Following from the July 1950 ORER:


SOU 272964 AUTOS

AAR Mech. Designation XMR; "Box, Auto, Stl. Stagg. Doors"; 40 ft 6 in IL, 12 ft 6 in door width; "Note L - Cars in series 272900-272999 are equipped with Automobile Loading Racks."


SOU 340282 LBR
AAR class XM; "Box, Stl. Frame, Stl. Staggered Doors"; 40 ft 6 in IL, 12 ft door width; no notes for special equipment.


SOU 375252 LIME
Number not in the ORER. Could it be 272252? If so:

AAR XM; "Box, Auto., Stl. Stagg. Doors; 40 ft 6 in, 12 ft 6 in doors; this number is not included in Notes AA "... equipped with racks for loading Fisher bodies and... AAR designation XAP" or CC "equipped for movement of Rayon and... AAR designation XMP".


SOU 148379 MDSE
AAR XM; "Box, Steel Frame, Staggered Doors"; 40 ft 6 in, 12 ft doors; this number not included in Note W "... equipped for movement of Rayon and... XMP".


SOU 272617 REFGRS
Same as 272252.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: Milling in Transit

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Dennis said that better than I could, and I would only add that I have seen
correspondence that indicated the "what" in what contaminants were, in box
cars, I suspect for those loads not bagged or barreled, and you don't want to
know....

The road had to eat the cost themselves, for loads refused, so there were
periodic campaigns to find those cars that could be categorized "clean".
Some road stenciled "clean loading only", some like NYC had a star, or "A" on
a yellow dot, etc. That practice seemed to vary a lot.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
soolinehistory
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 1:54 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Milling in Transit





--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Gatwood,
Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars
with powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I
once asked a guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he
worked a summer in which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a
conveyor. I trust the story was true. I also knew a guy that worked
for National Biscuit company (Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the
days before the big covered hoppers came on the scene, they got flour that
way.

A while back James Dick of the NP Historical Society sent me copies of a
bunch of 1920's era correspondence from the NP files (some of it concerned
Soo Line cars and was of interest to me) concerning damage to flour loads
from the Minneapolis milling distraict caused by water condensing on the
inside of unlined steel roofs and dripping on the load. In this
correspondence both loads of bagged flour and bulk loads were mentioned.

I suspect that bagged flour went to consignees who now receive bagged flour
by truck, while bulk loads went to volume customers that now receive Airslide
hoppers.

Dennis


Re: Milling in Transit

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company
(Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers
came on the scene, they got flour that way.
A while back James Dick of the NP Historical Society sent me copies of a bunch of 1920's era correspondence from the NP files (some of it concerned Soo Line cars and was of interest to me) concerning damage to flour loads from the Minneapolis milling distraict caused by water condensing on the inside of unlined steel roofs and dripping on the load. In this correspondence both loads of bagged flour and bulk loads were mentioned.

I suspect that bagged flour went to consignees who now receive bagged flour by truck, while bulk loads went to volume customers that now receive Airslide hoppers.

Dennis


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Tim O'Connor
 

Sherman? On the old main line -- before the Harriman cutoff was built?

I'm puzzled -- the UP ran COSF, Overland, Fast Mail, COLA, Challenger,
COStL, Portland Rose at least -- 7 daily passenger trains, 2 in each
direction -- so you are saying the UP only ran (at most) 17 freights a
day through Wyoming?

Tim O'Connor

Mike, the data Mark gave me is not a conductor book. It is a listing of the passenger and freight trains that passed Sherman on June 4 and 5, 1949. Their were 16 EB and 15 WB on the 4th, 17 EB and 15 WB on the 5th.

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Box/auto distribution 1938

Tim O'Connor
 

I'm looking at the first train listing, it gives train # etc --
566 (Laramie) to 683 (Rawlins) -- so this is a westbound correct?

Tim O'

Tim, why don't you just look at the 1951 book yourself and tell us
what you find? Scanned pages and an Excel transcription are online
at www.laramiedepot.org


Re: Milling in Transit

Aley, Jeff A
 

Elden,

Thanks for expanding my knowledge about this. I really enjoy learning more about grain and flour operations.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 4:51 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company
(Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers
came on the scene, they got flour that way.

Can you imagine how contaminated that flour was? Yuck.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Elden,

Was this common? I thought flour was shipped in barrels or sacks, and not
loose, in bulk, in boxcars.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis

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