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Re: Need Help with GATX Tank Cars from the 1950s

Ian Cranstone
 

On 2010-05-14, at 12:24 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

And I'll take exception to one of
Bruce's points, that pre-WWII cars were probably Type 30s. In fact,
GATC built thousands of tanks cars for its own service between the
teens and the late '20s before the Type 30 design was developed, and
most of them survived into the mid-'50s.
GATC was also a partner (with Canadian Car & Foundry) in Canadian General Transit, formed in 1932. In the post-WW II years, a good number of these older GATC cars apparently found their way to the CGTX fleet, including a large number of 1917-built cars. I don't know how much of an impact this had on the composition of the GATC fleet itself during this era, but one presumes that there would have been a decline in older cars with GATX markings.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
Re: Need Help with GATX Tank Cars from the 1950s

Joe Walder <ow802@...>
 

Richard -
 
Yeah, I kinda liked reading the description of each tank car series in the 1953 ORER.  Could it get any more general here (sorry the bad pun towards the "G" in GATX)?  Almost every other car description in the ORER helps you nail-down (almost) what a car would look like.  That's not the same for tank cars.  It makes for really frustrating research.
 
Joe
Re: Need Help with GATX Tank Cars from the 1950s

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 14, 2010, at 6:29 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

Joe,

You would pick the hardest first <VBG>. Based on the 80,000 lbs,
these all appear to be 8,000 gallon tanks. Unless someone has a GATC
roster listing tanks by number and builder, you're stuck with making
some assumptions. While GATC did buy some cars from other builders,
the majority of their cars were built to their own designs. It is my
understanding that number series did not necessarily reflect purity
of design or builder, but just capacity. Richard Hendrickson has
given clinics on GATC cars, and among the issues would be the use of
welded frames and tanks on cars build during and post WWII
respectively. Additionally, he stated that many GATC cars were not
used for petroleum, and were ICC 203 designs, with frangible disks
rather than safety valves. If cars were pre-WWII designs, it is
likely that they were the GATC type 30. GATX 64899 is unique amongst
the group in that it is most likely either an ICC 105 insulated car.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On May 13, 2010, at 11:30 PM, ow802 wrote:

Folks -

I'm doing research on cars that are listed in various train
consists on the PRR's Delmarva Division between 1955-1956. After
looking at the 1953 ORER, I was able to narrow down what number
series these tanks below to, but I don't have too much information
on them other than the series and their pounds capacity.

Joe Walder
Bruce's response is generally right, as far as it goes. To the best
of my knowledge, GATC trashed all of their photos and documentation
on steam and transition era tank cars years ago, and apart from a
limited number of builder's photos that have survived in museum
collections, about all we have to go on are in-service photos. To
make matters worse, the GATC entries in the ORERs are extremely
sketchy, with many different cars lumped into the same number series,
so even when there is a photo of one car in the series, you can't
assume that other cars in the series were the same - in fact, it's
almost certain that they were not. And I'll take exception to one of
Bruce's points, that pre-WWII cars were probably Type 30s. In fact,
GATC built thousands of tanks cars for its own service between the
teens and the late '20s before the Type 30 design was developed, and
most of them survived into the mid-'50s. In addition, GATC's strong
financial position at the time of the great depression enabled it to
buy the tank car fleets of many cash-strapped owner-shippers and
lease them back, which brought into the General American fleet many
cars from other builders - Standard Tank Car, American Car & Foundry,
Standard Steel Car, etc. Right now, I'm expecting out of town guests
for the weekend, but when I have time I'll see what I can find about
the cars whose numbers Joe cites. But the best I'll be able to do
are probably educated guesses.


Richard Hendrickson
Re: Need Help with GATX Tank Cars from the 1950s

Joe Walder <ow802@...>
 

Bruce -
 
OK, thanks.  At least that's a starting point for HO Scale cars.
 
Joe
Re: Need Help with GATX Tank Cars from the 1950s

Bruce Smith
 

Joe,

For models of GATC built cars in HO, there are a couple of choices. Sunshine now has a type 30 kit that has been done in a number of markings. The type 30 was also brought in in brass by Red Caboose/ Drake a few years back and Overland, even longer ago. Ted Culotta (Speedwitch) was talking about bringing out a type 30 a couple of years ago, but has not released it yet. There has been talk of a commercial plastic type 30 being released, but so far, no announcements. Other than that, I don't know of any cars, although one could adapt the Athearn "chemical tank" with a Precision hood and perhaps a Sunshine frame to make the ICC 105 car.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On May 14, 2010, at 8:35 AM, Joe Walder wrote:

Bruce -

Yeah, that's what I thought (I'd have some difficult cars to determine their builder and prototype info). The listings I have for the "pounds capacity" came from the 1953 ORER, so that leaves it wide-open for determination of exactly what each car was in each series.

I also noticed that I typo'd the group that GATX 64899 was from. I listed it as "7000-7999" series when it should be from the 64800-64949 series. Sorry about that.

Any idea on suitable HO Scale cars for any of these (whether it's a model of the car or a good stand-in)?

Thanks again,

Joe







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: SAL X29s? NOT

jerryglow2
 

I thought so. I seem to remember a conversation with John Golden who had to do some kitbashing to get an accurate model of what they're supposed to be. I think he made patterns and cast new sides to put on the X29 shell.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

They are probably meant to represent the steel rebuilds of the SAL's Pratt trussed SS cars with the Plate ends. Close but no cigar.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., jerryglow@ wrote:

Intermountain has just released a six car set of Red Caboose Seaboard X29 40' boxcars in the "Route of the Orange Blossom Special" paint scheme. These cars are brown with white lettering. The white herald has a red heart with the lettering "Through The Heart Of The South" inside. Here are a couple of pictures of the cars:
http://www.imrcmodels.com/distrib/redcaboose/images/RR-37101w.jpg http://www.imrcmodels.com/distrib/redcaboose/images/RR-37101aw.jpg

how accurate are these?

Jerry Glow
Re: SAL X29s?

al_brown03
 

Interesting question. The models appear to be stencilled (if I read the pictures correctly) as class B-6, to which neither the body nor the numbers correspond. This class comprised '32 ARA cars with tabbed side sills, built in 1934 (17000-17999) and 1937 (18000-18999). See Ted Culotta's '32 ARA boxcar book, chapter 20.

The models' built date (6-30) and the 14000-series numbers correspond to 1950s rebuilds of class B-5, which were originally single-sheathed cars. There were three variants of these rebuilds, of which one (not the most common, unfortunately) had six-foot doors and covered side trusses, making it resemble the X29. The models' height and length and roof and ends are right or real close to it; the underframe isn't (should be fishbelly, with a single centered crossbearer). See John Golden's article in Lines South, 4th/04, pp 22-30, and the B-5 drawings in this list's Files section.

The rebuildings were done after my modelling date, and I haven't examined small details closely e.g. rivet patterns, but I tend to view these models as interesting stand-ins, that could be made more realistic with a new underframe. A B-5 underframe can be made from an Accurail reefer underframe. (Trim the fishbelly to length; make a new floor, crossbearers, and crossmembers from Evergreen styrene. Add brakes. I made an as-built B-5 from F&C superstructure parts, before the Sunshine kits were available.)

-- HTH --

-- Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., jerryglow@... wrote:

Intermountain has just released a six car set of Red Caboose Seaboard X29 40' boxcars in the "Route of the Orange Blossom Special" paint scheme. These cars are brown with white lettering. The white herald has a red heart with the lettering "Through The Heart Of The South" inside. Here are a couple of pictures of the cars:
http://www.imrcmodels.com/distrib/redcaboose/images/RR-37101w.jpg http://www.imrcmodels.com/distrib/redcaboose/images/RR-37101aw.jpg

how accurate are these?

Jerry Glow
Re: Need Help with GATX Tank Cars from the 1950s

Joe Walder <ow802@...>
 

Bruce -
 
Yeah, that's what I thought (I'd have some difficult cars to determine their builder and prototype info).  The listings I have for the "pounds capacity" came from the 1953 ORER, so that leaves it wide-open for determination of exactly what each car was in each series.
 
I also noticed that I typo'd the group that GATX 64899 was from.  I listed it as "7000-7999" series when it should be from the 64800-64949 series.  Sorry about that.
 
Any idea on suitable HO Scale cars for any of these (whether it's a model of the car or a good stand-in)?
 
Thanks again,
 
Joe
Re: Need Help with GATX Tank Cars from the 1950s

Bruce Smith
 

Joe,

You would pick the hardest first <VBG>. Based on the 80,000 lbs, these all appear to be 8,000 gallon tanks. Unless someone has a GATC roster listing tanks by number and builder, you're stuck with making some assumptions. While GATC did buy some cars from other builders, the majority of their cars were built to their own designs. It is my understanding that number series did not necessarily reflect purity of design or builder, but just capacity. Richard Hendrickson has given clinics on GATC cars, and among the issues would be the use of welded frames and tanks on cars build during and post WWII respectively. Additionally, he stated that many GATC cars were not used for petroleum, and were ICC 203 designs, with frangible disks rather than safety valves. If cars were pre-WWII designs, it is likely that they were the GATC type 30. GATX 64899 is unique amongst the group in that it is most likely either an ICC 105 insulated car.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On May 13, 2010, at 11:30 PM, ow802 wrote:

Folks -

I'm doing research on cars that are listed in various train consists on the PRR's Delmarva Division between 1955-1956. After looking at the 1953 ORER, I was able to narrow down what number series these tanks below to, but I don't have too much information on them other than the series and their pounds capacity.

What I need to know is:

(1) Prototype info on these cars; and

(2) Good HO Scale models to represent these cars.

Here are the cars and when they were listed:

GATX 2369; AAR Class TM; 80,000 lbs.; 1800-2899 series; empty on 8/27/56; no consignee, headed to Lewes, DE.

GATX 7156; AAR Class TM; 80,000 lbs.; 7000-7999 series; empty on 8/27/56; no consignee, headed to Lewes, DE.

GATX 25319; AAR Class TM; 80,000 lbs.; 25276-25411 series; empty on 8/27/56; going to Seacoast Products in Lewes, DE.

GATX 64899; AAR Class TPI; 80,000 lbs.; 7000-7999 series; loaded with petroleum gas on 3/8/56; going to S.P. Gas Co. in Rehoboth, DE.

Regarding Lewes, DE: there was a large fish factory that probably had fish oil/meal as a by-product (Lewes - pronounced "Lewis" is located where the Delaware Bay begins and the Atlantic Ocean ends). I am guessing that's where the cars were headed. The only other place that could use tank cars was the U.S. Army base in Lewes - I doubt they would be receiving empty tanks (but I've been known to be wrong in the past).

Any and all help would be appreciated. This is just the tip of the iceberg - in the future I've got questions on ISX, SHPX, and UTLX tank cars, but I'll leave this conversation just to these four GATX cars.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Walder



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
SAL X29s? NOT

Bill Welch
 

They are probably meant to represent the steel rebuilds of the SAL's Pratt trussed SS cars with the Plate ends. Close but no cigar.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., jerryglow@... wrote:

Intermountain has just released a six car set of Red Caboose Seaboard X29 40' boxcars in the "Route of the Orange Blossom Special" paint scheme. These cars are brown with white lettering. The white herald has a red heart with the lettering "Through The Heart Of The South" inside. Here are a couple of pictures of the cars:
http://www.imrcmodels.com/distrib/redcaboose/images/RR-37101w.jpg http://www.imrcmodels.com/distrib/redcaboose/images/RR-37101aw.jpg

how accurate are these?

Jerry Glow
Re: Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers

SUVCWORR@...
 

Or Accurail could introduce a "premium" line without the grabs, ladders etc molded on in limited quantities then re-cut the dies to add the modled on parts. Since most who want the cars without the details use wire for grabs and ladders, IMHO, it would not be necessary to include these parts.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 11:18 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers


I knew someone would be introducing a 40' plug door iced reefer soon, because I
ust finished a project to build 15 of them using the old Trains Miniature sides
ith I/M roofs and ends and an Accurail floor. For the FGEX-WFEX-BREX cars as
ell as the PFE R40-26 I used the I/M diagonal panel roof and improved
readnought ends from the R40-25 they did some years ago for the Amarillo
useum. For the various models of SFRD cars I used the I/M SFRD ends and SFRD,
ectangular or diagonal panel roofs and straight or fishbelly centersill
ccurail floors depending on the SFRD model.
Now to my point. The same technique might be tried to improve the forthcomming
ccurail cars. Instead of carving ladders off the ends, you might replace the
nds with I/M ends!
regards,
Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Carlson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers


Bill mentions his dread concerning the ladder carving on the ends. Perhaps
ennis could do us STMFC'ers a favor, and hold off to last the cutting in the
nd ladders, and run some bodies with the "unfinished" ends, letting them be
vailable to us who appreciate such generosity.
I remember years ago Terry Wegmann ran a few sets of his "Details West"
-40-23 dreadnaught end w/o ladder brackets. Boy, I wish I had grabbed a couple
ore of those...
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
________________________________
From: lnbill <fgexbill@...>
What I am dreading is carving the ladders off of the ends.
Bill Welch
-





------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Individual Email | Traditional
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
SAL X29s?

jerryglow2
 

Intermountain has just released a six car set of Red Caboose Seaboard X29 40' boxcars in the "Route of the Orange Blossom Special" paint scheme. These cars are brown with white lettering. The white herald has a red heart with the lettering "Through The Heart Of The South" inside. Here are a couple of pictures of the cars:
http://www.imrcmodels.com/distrib/redcaboose/images/RR-37101w.jpg http://www.imrcmodels.com/distrib/redcaboose/images/RR-37101aw.jpg

how accurate are these?

Jerry Glow
40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers correction, clarification, amplification

Bill Welch
 

I went back to look at my photos of these cars and I need to correct what I said about the door handle on the BREX/MNX cars. Without a protractor, I have to admit I am not really sure what the angle is, but fortunately we can use the same limitations the builder used. The handle is angled to fit between the bottom left hinge and a fitting designed to mesh w/a complementary fitting on the cars side to hold the door open.

All of these cars had straight side sills. I get confused because WFE and FGE had welded versions of these cars which had tabbed side sills. Maybe "Archer" will run their weld decals in 1/87th scale!

For the WFE 68400-68649 examples they had door hinges that sort of look like "Home Plate," not unlike the hinge fitted to PFE's steel reefers, maybe even the same hinge. These cars were built by Pacific Car & Foundry.

The BRE cars were built by FGE's Indiana Harbor shops while the MNX cars were built by the BRE shops at Plattsmouth, Nebraska.

FGE's 39500-39799 were built at their Alexandria, VA shops, but I am uncertain where their 39300-39499 were built.

Bill Welch
Re: PRR boxcar jargon

leakinmywaders
 

Ha--that wasn't me who put that in, I left it at "AAR"...I was edited.
Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@..., "whstlpnk" <whstlpnk@...> wrote:

Thanks fellers. Looks like you got it right, CF, but we still need to talk to you about what "AAR" stands for!

Muahahaha!

John Phillips
Seattle
Need Help with GATX Tank Cars from the 1950s

ow802 <ow802@...>
 

Folks -

I'm doing research on cars that are listed in various train consists on the PRR's Delmarva Division between 1955-1956. After looking at the 1953 ORER, I was able to narrow down what number series these tanks below to, but I don't have too much information on them other than the series and their pounds capacity.

What I need to know is:

(1) Prototype info on these cars; and

(2) Good HO Scale models to represent these cars.

Here are the cars and when they were listed:

GATX 2369; AAR Class TM; 80,000 lbs.; 1800-2899 series; empty on 8/27/56; no consignee, headed to Lewes, DE.

GATX 7156; AAR Class TM; 80,000 lbs.; 7000-7999 series; empty on 8/27/56; no consignee, headed to Lewes, DE.

GATX 25319; AAR Class TM; 80,000 lbs.; 25276-25411 series; empty on 8/27/56; going to Seacoast Products in Lewes, DE.

GATX 64899; AAR Class TPI; 80,000 lbs.; 7000-7999 series; loaded with petroleum gas on 3/8/56; going to S.P. Gas Co. in Rehoboth, DE.

Regarding Lewes, DE: there was a large fish factory that probably had fish oil/meal as a by-product (Lewes - pronounced "Lewis" is located where the Delaware Bay begins and the Atlantic Ocean ends). I am guessing that's where the cars were headed. The only other place that could use tank cars was the U.S. Army base in Lewes - I doubt they would be receiving empty tanks (but I've been known to be wrong in the past).

Any and all help would be appreciated. This is just the tip of the iceberg - in the future I've got questions on ISX, SHPX, and UTLX tank cars, but I'll leave this conversation just to these four GATX cars.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Walder
Re: Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Tony,

        If only we could convince the manufacturers to add those ends to the parts spru !!
The worst they can do is sell 4 times the amount of kits, easily.

Fred Freitas




________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 12:18:05 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers

 
Walt Cox wrote (about avoiding carving ladders off the Accurail ends):
Great idea, I could use about 8 such bodies.
Or maybe just provide plain ends as parts. That seems at least
as practical as running shots with "unfinished" dies.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Re: Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Walt Cox wrote (about avoiding carving ladders off the Accurail ends):
Great idea, I could use about 8 such bodies.
Or maybe just provide plain ends as parts. That seems at least as practical as running shots with "unfinished" dies.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Re: Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers

Tim O'Connor
 

What I am dreading is carving the ladders off of the ends.

Bill Welch

Bill, I think Stan R. may make correct resin ends for these
cars. I'd just cut off the Accurail ends and replace them. I
avoid carving at all costs :-)

Tim O'Connor
Re: Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers

Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
 

I knew someone would be introducing a 40' plug door iced reefer soon, because I just finished a project to build 15 of them using the old Trains Miniature sides with I/M roofs and ends and an Accurail floor. For the FGEX-WFEX-BREX cars as well as the PFE R40-26 I used the I/M diagonal panel roof and improved dreadnought ends from the R40-25 they did some years ago for the Amarillo Museum. For the various models of SFRD cars I used the I/M SFRD ends and SFRD, rectangular or diagonal panel roofs and straight or fishbelly centersill Accurail floors depending on the SFRD model.

Now to my point. The same technique might be tried to improve the forthcomming Accurail cars. Instead of carving ladders off the ends, you might replace the ends with I/M ends!

regards,

Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Carlson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers



Bill mentions his dread concerning the ladder carving on the ends. Perhaps Dennis could do us STMFC'ers a favor, and hold off to last the cutting in the end ladders, and run some bodies with the "unfinished" ends, letting them be available to us who appreciate such generosity.

I remember years ago Terry Wegmann ran a few sets of his "Details West" R-40-23 dreadnaught end w/o ladder brackets. Boy, I wish I had grabbed a couple more of those...
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

________________________________
From: lnbill <fgexbill@...>

What I am dreading is carving the ladders off of the ends.

Bill Welch

-
Re: Those pesky 40-foot FGE/WFE/BRE/NX steel reefers

Andy Carlson
 

Bill mentions his dread concerning the ladder carving on the ends. Perhaps Dennis could do us STMFC'ers a favor, and hold off to last the cutting in the end ladders, and run some bodies with the "unfinished" ends, letting them be available to us who appreciate such generosity.

I remember years ago Terry Wegmann ran a few sets of his "Details West" R-40-23 dreadnaught end w/o ladder brackets. Boy, I wish I had grabbed a couple more of those...
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




________________________________
From: lnbill <fgexbill@...>



What I am dreading is carving the ladders off of the ends.

Bill Welch

-
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