Date   

Red BallReefers

JP Barger
 

Hello, Red Ball & reefer fans: I was recently talking with a person
knowledgeable about Red Ball's operations as an HO freight car kit
manufacturer. The prototypes for almost 100% of Red Ball's approximately 200
kits made by Howell Day in Dunellen, NJ fall into the 1910-1960 period and
almost all of them represent quite accurately their corresponding
prototypes, given the construction methods of WWII HO cars. An interesting
fact is that for one of the kits, there is no prototype. One of the cars
taken over by Howell, when the ownership changed from M. Dale Newton in
1955, was Elwood's Root Beer. Many years ago I learned that there is no
actual Elwood's Root Beer Company, and that MDN made up this carside to
tease one of his employees in Medford, Oregon. Do any of you STMFC members
know any more about this story? And, can you identify any other cars made by
M. Dale or Howell for which there are no prototypes?
I was just thinking that we see the humor in most of the names of fictional
companies put on layout buildings; Some of them are outright side-spltting.
But in this modelling group, we spend enormous time and resources trying to
get every detail of our freight car modelling to match its prototype. For
example, we read on this list in the last week about trying to chase down a
bogus company name on a doctored photo originally used for the purpose of
creating an ad for box car nailable floors. The doctoring attempted to make
the company into a railroad owner. It's an amusing contrast, don't you
think, between the exactness of our approach to freight cars; and, on the
other hand, the free license to rearrange building kits, name them anything
we like, or even free-lance them. I don't have a suggestion to deal with
these two different approaches. I don't even have an opinion-let alone
several different opinions, like some of our friends have. I just thought
you might enjoy the refreshing contrast between constructing cars and
buildings.


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Tim O'Connor
 

Andy, the problem with Intermountain kits is the same problem with
many of their RTR cars -- they are (1) INACCURATE or (2) there may be
a better model available from another vendor (3) the folks at RPM meets
already bought the handful of accurate Intermountain kits they needed
when they were first released.

Intermountain and the other vendors really don't know much about freight
cars or what people really want. They find stuff that sells and just keep
making more of it, until sales drop off, and they move on.

The best solution (IMO) is companies like 5th Avenue Shops and clubs and
societies who can do the artwork, make sure it is done correctly, and have
small runs made of kits + RTR -- Intermountain and Accurail love this -
they get exactly the same profit margin as for other stuff, but they take
no risk at all! And modelers and societies love it because it gets them
the cars they really want, and clubs love it because it helps them raise
money for their layouts. The only people who don't love it are retailers
because they're out of the loop.

Tim O'Connor

At last year's Naperville meet, I sold freight cars at Martin's large sales room on Saturday. I brought a lot of fresh, direct from Intermountain, decorated kits recently found in their warehouse. I priced them with steep discounts, and even at the largest gathering of kit sympathetic modelers in the US, the RTRs I brought outsold the kits by a huge margin. I brought most of the kits home. Ted from Rails Unlimited had a huge selection of Intermountain decorated kits, and he told me that very few were selling. If the decorated kits don't sell at Naperville, how can we expect them to sell at the LHS in Peoria?

One manufacturer of HO freight cars told me that the labor in packing kits, and printing instructions, keeps the profit margins depressed in his kit sales.

-Andy Carlson


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Tim O'Connor
 

It may interest y'all to hear that the Eel River 62 ft modern box car
sold (mostly as kits) a total of.... 250,000 before the tooling was sold
to the current owner. Several Intermountain cars have sold in similar
volumes.

There's absolutely no way to recoup tooling costs w/ 1000-2000 kits.

Tim O'Connor

Armand,

We have this discussion a number of times on this list. There is no way to compare the sales of resin kits to extruded plastic kits. I BIG run of a resin model is 300. Someone like Intermountain needs to sell a 1000 plus kits JUST to recovery the cost of the tooling! A "humble" math exerise here should explain the problem. 1000 kits to pay for the tooling and 1000 kits for a reason return on there investment, means the manufacturer needs to sell 2000 kits, at a minimum, to have a reasonably successful model! My numbers are probably low. So with sales of 300, the resin manufacturer is beaming from ear to ear; and if he managed to sell 2000 kits the plastic manufacturer is wondering if he wants to do that again. If plastic manufacturers could make a profit on 300 kits, I suspect we would have a model of every prototype freight car that was ever been built.

Paul Lyons


Re: demise of kits

Brian Carlson
 

I have 300+ unbuilt kits plastic and resin. I sold two to Armand a while back. Bought some extra's from Clark recently too. I build them as I have time, Yet I am always looking for more to fill in the holes in the fleet. I am also as far as this list is concerned relatively young at 1937.
 
Seriously though this kit vs. RTR  discussion comes up every 6 months or so, (next week the bananna one will start), we should really turn it into a drinking game, and I don't even drink.
Brian carlson

--- On Thu, 6/24/10, rockroll50401 <cepropst@q.com> wrote:


From: rockroll50401 <cepropst@q.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: demise of kits
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 2:04 PM


 




At Naperville guys buy arm loads of kits from Martin. Last show a guy was selling his collection. I don't know how many kits there were, but there were a bunch. Maybe more that Martin's inventory?

How many more guys like him are out there with dozens of unbuild kits? Why would they want more?

I might buy something to build at the Nation Train show next month....Got my eye on that F&C little C&O DD. Have documentation of one on my RR with a lumber load. Got two lumber yards on the layout.

Clark "No Kit Stockpile" Propst








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NP Truss Rod Reefers

Tim O'Connor
 

Paul

In general, many roads still rostered truss rod cars into the 1950's and
some could still be found in service in the 1960's.

In my 1950 ORER, NP shows 105 truss rod reefers in service, series 94410-99980.
However 26 of these cars were rebuilt cars, with two interior partitions, one
refrigerated and the other not refrigerated. I will guess these cars were used
for online LCL service. By 1955 the ONLY truss rod reefers left were rebuilds,
in series 99917-99995 -- a total of 77 cars. And incredible as it may seem, in
1959 there were still 55 of these truss rod cars in service.

Look at the ORER entries -- if it says something like "steel center sills" then
it is a truss rod freight car.

ORER speak:

"steel" car -- modern all-steel car
"steel underframe" car -- wood or composite superstructure
"steel center sill" car -- truss rods, wood or composite superstructure

Tim O'Connor

I recently bought a HO scale W&R brass Northern Pacific wood reefer with a "fishbelly" center sill and a truss rod outboard on each side. The car has the standard NP radial roof and a vertical brake staff. It has a 1917 build date and is painted in company service with a 1937 date, I believe the correct number series for these cars were #94400-899; and #94900-95999. Road number of the model is 94564. My question is how long did these car run in revenue service. Looking in my 1944 ORES, it shows 471 cars in these two series and 62 are still shown in the 1950 ORES. I am having trouble believing there were still 62 truss rod reefers running in revenuse service in 1950. Was there maybe a re-numbering in the late 40's? Any info is greatly appreicated.

Paul Lyons


Re: demise of kits

Thomas Vanderlip <thomasvanderlip@...>
 

Clark,
A couple of my friends who complain bitterly about the demise of kits have at least 300 unbuilt Athearn Blue Box kits stored under their unfinished layouts. But they are still looking for more kits to BUY.

If they ever start buillding, the have at least one year of kits if they only build one a day
Thom


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Thomas Vanderlip <thomasvanderlip@...>
 

Guys,
I asked a rep from Athearn this very question at the Trainfest in Milwaukee last November. His comment was that the cost of manufacturing a kit was only $.05. The he asked me how he could sell a kit for nearly the same price as a r-t-r car. These guys are in business to make money and a living for themselves. If you want to produce kits as a hobby and sell them at material costs you probably would be able to sell the kits. But in order to recover your costs you would have to wait several years.

Fine if you do it for the love of a model but a lousy way to make a living. That is the way the hobby manufacturing started but it was slowly converted to a business. And you all know if it doesn't make money it will end. Soooo. That is what is happening with kits.

If you want a particular car kit. Do the design work in autocad or something like it and have a rapid prototype shop run a few for you. But you better plan on spending some serious money.

Thus is the dilema. and I don't have an answer.

Thom


Re: demise of kits

Scott Pitzer
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:
I can put dozens of full-sized routes on my
PC, most of which are free, and hundreds upon hundreds of freight cars,
locomotives, etc., most of which are free. Consider: I can buy a dozen
professionally painted, high detail steam era diesel locomotives for less
than $20. What's that going to cost in HO?

I know the standard rebuttal of "That's not model railroading"... but it
really is: it's equivalent to a different scale. Pretty much requires all
the same skills, albeit using different media and tools and the same
knowledge.
----------------------------
Not to mention, Ben Hom wouldn't have to worry about "ham-handed operators" knocking off the grab irons!
Scott Pitzer


Re: demise of kits

Dave Nelson
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Mines.

Now if we had some new blood coming into the hobby they'd be building up
collections of boxes in the closet but that's not the case.
There are lots of new guys coming into Model Railroading but it's not your
particular incarnation -- they're sitting at their PC's doing rail
simulators. Teenagers and college students are very common participants on
train sim boards.

It must be tough on new guys to pay big bucks for everything.
Again, WRT your incarnation of Model Railroading, yeah, it must be. Over in
mine (sims) it's dirt cheap. Sure, I have to shell out big bucks for a high
performance gaming rig... but compared to a house with enough room for a
nice sized layout... and all the expense of lumber & other materials, I'm
waaay out ahead on the savings. I can put dozens of full-sized routes on my
PC, most of which are free, and hundreds upon hundreds of freight cars,
locomotives, etc., most of which are free. Consider: I can buy a dozen
professionally painted, high detail steam era diesel locomotives for less
than $20. What's that going to cost in HO?

I know the standard rebuttal of "That's not model railroading"... but it
really is: it's equivalent to a different scale. Pretty much requires all
the same skills, albeit using different media and tools and the same
knowledge.

Back to kits... yes, we're I still participating in the "older form" of
Model Railroading, I too would be moaning at the demise of kits -- I really
like assembling kits, be they plastic or resin (as in I still do, on
occasion). But I could see that both cost and space constraints made it
impossible to build a physical model railroad... but my PC enabled me to
build waaaay beyond what I ever considered for a garage layout: whole
subdivisions.

Anyway, I understand all the financial issues of cutting tooling and what
that means for everybody... I think the demise of inexpensive entry products
is deadly and the demise of kits is but one example.

Dave Nelson


Re: demise of kits

Clark Propst
 

At Naperville guys buy arm loads of kits from Martin. Last show a guy was selling his collection. I don't know how many kits there were, but there were a bunch. Maybe more that Martin's inventory?

How many more guys like him are out there with dozens of unbuild kits? Why would they want more?

I might buy something to build at the Nation Train show next month....Got my eye on that F&C little C&O DD. Have documentation of one on my RR with a lumber load. Got two lumber yards on the layout.

Clark "No Kit Stockpile" Propst


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Andy Carlson
 

At last year's Naperville meet, I sold freight cars at Martin's large sales room on Saturday. I brought a lot of fresh, direct from Intermountain, decorated kits recently found in their warehouse. I priced them with steep discounts, and even at the largest gathering of kit sympathetic modelers in the US, the RTRs I brought outsold the kits by a huge margin. I brought most of the kits home. Ted from Rails Unlimited had a huge selection of Intermountain decorated kits, and he told me that very few were selling. If the decorated kits don't sell at Naperville, how can we expect them to sell at the LHS in Peoria?

One manufacturer of HO freight cars told me that the labor in packing kits, and printing instructions, keeps the profit margins depressed in his kit sales.

-Andy Carlson





________________________________
From: "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil>


I had some manufacturers, hobby shop owners, and modelers (or buyers of
models) get pretty brutal this past year, when I expressed some similar
ponderings. Here is what I got from each:

Manufacturer: "You just don't understand the realities of the model
railroading industry. No one wants kits anymore, they want RTR. You are in
a group that is outnumbered a hundred to one. You are one of the only people
I know still building kits."

Hobby Shop Owner: "You don't understand that the industry has gone to RTR,
and I won't stock kits on my shelves because they won't sell. The buying
public wants something they can plop right onto the layout....with sound."

Modeler: "You don't understand. I can't build stuff like you do. I can't
building resin kits, or paint or decal, or weather stuff. I want a working
layout in my lifetime."

OK, I get it.

I still think there is a market for limited-run, very accurate, freight car
kits, perhaps even with pre-painted and lettered parts, for those of us,
small in number, that like to build something unique, and meaningful for a
layout, with a statistically representative fleet.

Call me crazy.

Elden Gatwood


Re: demise of kits

Mark
 

I had a chance to get to the basement and run some trains. While they ran I got busy with three RTR Proto NKP 50' boxcars with horn hook couplers! replaced them with knuckle ones and noticed a derailment. An Accurail kit, three bay hopper was on the ground. Replaced the trucks with metal wheels and removed the plastic knuckles for #58's.
Got back to operating and noticed the better cars, rivet drooling :-). Turned around to a set of drawers and looked at some stock. Pulled out three wagon top cars, two brass and one heavily worked styrene put them on the track and boy they look good. That drawer has seven M53, four M26, eight mather stockcars and about fourteen other kits. A plastic container with fifty resin kits and another 50 Branchline cars!

What we need are 10' H boxcars with a variety of roofs, doors and ends. There are others.

Mark Morgan

--- On Thu, 6/24/10, Armand Premo <armprem2@surfglobal.net> wrote:

From: Armand Premo <armprem2@surfglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] demise of kits
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 1:25 PM







 









Ed,I have something like five or six unbuilt kits and three of them are currently under construction.If you have any kits you do not want or do not have time to build please send me your list.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----

From: ed_mines

To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 1:10 PM

Subject: [STMFC] demise of kits



I think the facts that most model railroaders have 2 lifetime supplies of kits and that they ruin many of those kits when they try to build them are mostly responsible for the demise of kits. Better to buy one built up model and enjoy it on the shelf than have 3 more in boxes in the closet.



Now if we had some new blood coming into the hobby they'd be building up collections of boxes in the closet but that's not the case.



It must be tough on new guys to pay big bucks for everything.



Atleast they're potential customers for kits in the closet.



Ed



----------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10 06:35:00



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

On 6/24/2010 9:33 AM, cobrapsl@aol.com wrote:
Armand,

We have this discussion a number of times on this list. There is no way to compare the sales of resin kits to extruded plastic kits.

I agree however there appears to sometimes be a problem on how kits are marketed. An example is the IM atsf stock car kit. They set it up to have 4 different boxes which LHS's didn't want to stock, lots of shelf space. For adding a few cents worth of injected parts they could have put it all in one box.
It appears that they learned with the caboose kit as the first run sold out almost instantly. One kit with parts to build all the different cars.
While this doesn't work for decorated kits it sure does for undecs.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Elden, and friends,

Yes, I hear the same things at my LHS (actually 70 miles away, not so local). They carry virtually no railroad car kits anymore, and basically I doubt if they can get many either.

I think the small niche market for special run kits like the reefers sold by the Amarillo group and others may be our last hope. That is, if the manufacturers remain willing to work with those clubs.

Kind regards,


Garth Groff

Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

I had some manufacturers, hobby shop owners, and modelers (or buyers of
models) get pretty brutal this past year, when I expressed some similar
ponderings. Here is what I got from each:

Manufacturer: "You just don't understand the realities of the model
railroading industry. No one wants kits anymore, they want RTR. You are in
a group that is outnumbered a hundred to one. You are one of the only people
I know still building kits."

Hobby Shop Owner: "You don't understand that the industry has gone to RTR,
and I won't stock kits on my shelves because they won't sell. The buying
public wants something they can plop right onto the layout....with sound."

Modeler: "You don't understand. I can't build stuff like you do. I can't
building resin kits, or paint or decal, or weather stuff. I want a working
layout in my lifetime."

OK, I get it.

I still think there is a market for limited-run, very accurate, freight car
kits, perhaps even with pre-painted and lettered parts, for those of us,
small in number, that like to build something unique, and meaningful for a
layout, with a statistically representative fleet.

Call me crazy.

Elden Gatwood


Re: demise of kits

Armand Premo
 

Ed,I have something like five or six unbuilt kits and three of them are currently under construction.If you have any kits you do not want or do not have time to build please send me your list.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: ed_mines
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 1:10 PM
Subject: [STMFC] demise of kits



I think the facts that most model railroaders have 2 lifetime supplies of kits and that they ruin many of those kits when they try to build them are mostly responsible for the demise of kits. Better to buy one built up model and enjoy it on the shelf than have 3 more in boxes in the closet.

Now if we had some new blood coming into the hobby they'd be building up collections of boxes in the closet but that's not the case.

It must be tough on new guys to pay big bucks for everything.

Atleast they're potential customers for kits in the closet.

Ed






------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10 06:35:00


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

I had some manufacturers, hobby shop owners, and modelers (or buyers of
models) get pretty brutal this past year, when I expressed some similar
ponderings. Here is what I got from each:

Manufacturer: "You just don't understand the realities of the model
railroading industry. No one wants kits anymore, they want RTR. You are in
a group that is outnumbered a hundred to one. You are one of the only people
I know still building kits."

Hobby Shop Owner: "You don't understand that the industry has gone to RTR,
and I won't stock kits on my shelves because they won't sell. The buying
public wants something they can plop right onto the layout....with sound."

Modeler: "You don't understand. I can't build stuff like you do. I can't
building resin kits, or paint or decal, or weather stuff. I want a working
layout in my lifetime."

OK, I get it.

I still think there is a market for limited-run, very accurate, freight car
kits, perhaps even with pre-painted and lettered parts, for those of us,
small in number, that like to build something unique, and meaningful for a
layout, with a statistically representative fleet.

Call me crazy.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
cobrapsl@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:34 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings




Armand,

We have this discussion a number of times on this list. There is no way to
compare the sales of resin kits to extruded plastic kits. I BIG run of a
resin model is 300. Someone like Intermountain needs to sell a 1000 plus kits
JUST to recovery the cost of the tooling! A "humble" math exerise here should
explain the problem. 1000 kits to pay for the tooling and 1000 kits for a
reason return on there investment, means the manufacturer needs to sell 2000
kits, at a minimum, to have a reasonably successful model! My numbers are
probably low. So with sales of 300, the resin manufacturer is beaming from
ear to ear; and if he managed to sell 2000 kits the plastic manufacturer is
wondering if he wants to do that again. If plastic manufacturers could make a
profit on 300 kits, I suspect we would have a model of every prototype
freight car that was ever been built.

Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Armand Premo <armprem2@surfglobal.net
<mailto:armprem2%40surfglobal.net> >
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 7:39 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Andy,In my humble opinion there is plenty of room for both.Unfortunately
undecorated kits lie dormant because of a lack of appropriate decals or dry
transfers.How do you explain the popularity of resin kits and the multitude
of laser cut building kits?Somebody must be buying them.The largest
investment is in the cutting of dies.Once done, the cheapest part of the
operation is decorating the car body for more than one era or one paint
scheme.There are many who like to kit bash or further enhance current
offerings.If there are any out there who might have kits that they aren't
going to build get them out there so others who build, will.It is very
difficult to have to strip a RTR car and reletter or super detail it.Until
the manufacturers realize that there is a market for both ,I'll continue to
spend my money on resin.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Carlson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:12 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Wasn't that long ago we were lamenting the disappearance of kits as companies
such as Intermountain and Red Caboose were moving their production into
mostly Factory assembled offerings.

Later, Branchline-Trains, with a rich catalog of pre-finished kits, joined
the march into offering RTR cars.

Now we have Intermountain offering ZERO painted/lettered kits, only undecs
are available. Same with Red Caboose. Branchline-Trains appears to be moving
into only Yardmaster "shake the box" offerings, letting their very acceptable
Blueprint line wither down to only undec kits.

When this trend started, I felt that the demise of kits was because the lack
of offerings by the builders. Now I believe that they were probable correct,
kits sell very poorly. Bye Bye....

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

________________________________
Said "Gatwood, Elden J SAD ".....

Folks;

Speaking of Branchline and other kit manufacturers' box car offerings, are
there any plans you know of to offer additional paint and lettering schemes?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10
06:35:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Armand Premo
 

Paul,I quess you missed my point,or I did not express myself clearly.A manufacturer can market both kits and RTR.Most often a run of a basic car body type can be decorated for multiple prototypes.Some minor changes might be necessary to match a specific prototype.This will,or should, provide the necessary mass to attain profit of which you speak and also provide for the hobbyist who prefers ready to run and for those who prefer to build kits.To abandon the kit makers is essentially reducing the size of the market pool.The production of more modern prototypes further reduces the capital available for STMFCs......................... For the most part resin kits provide variety.I dread the thought of RTR resin <G>.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: cobrapsl@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings




Armand,

We have this discussion a number of times on this list. There is no way to compare the sales of resin kits to extruded plastic kits. I BIG run of a resin model is 300. Someone like Intermountain needs to sell a 1000 plus kits JUST to recovery the cost of the tooling! A "humble" math exerise here should explain the problem. 1000 kits to pay for the tooling and 1000 kits for a reason return on there investment, means the manufacturer needs to sell 2000 kits, at a minimum, to have a reasonably successful model! My numbers are probably low. So with sales of 300, the resin manufacturer is beaming from ear to ear; and if he managed to sell 2000 kits the plastic manufacturer is wondering if he wants to do that again. If plastic manufacturers could make a profit on 300 kits, I suspect we would have a model of every prototype freight car that was ever been built.

Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Armand Premo <armprem2@surfglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 7:39 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Andy,In my humble opinion there is plenty of room for both.Unfortunately undecorated kits lie dormant because of a lack of appropriate decals or dry transfers.How do you explain the popularity of resin kits and the multitude of laser cut building kits?Somebody must be buying them.The largest investment is in the cutting of dies.Once done, the cheapest part of the operation is decorating the car body for more than one era or one paint scheme.There are many who like to kit bash or further enhance current offerings.If there are any out there who might have kits that they aren't going to build get them out there so others who build, will.It is very difficult to have to strip a RTR car and reletter or super detail it.Until the manufacturers realize that there is a market for both ,I'll continue to spend my money on resin.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Carlson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:12 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Wasn't that long ago we were lamenting the disappearance of kits as companies such as Intermountain and Red Caboose were moving their production into mostly Factory assembled offerings.

Later, Branchline-Trains, with a rich catalog of pre-finished kits, joined the march into offering RTR cars.

Now we have Intermountain offering ZERO painted/lettered kits, only undecs are available. Same with Red Caboose. Branchline-Trains appears to be moving into only Yardmaster "shake the box" offerings, letting their very acceptable Blueprint line wither down to only undec kits.

When this trend started, I felt that the demise of kits was because the lack of offerings by the builders. Now I believe that they were probable correct, kits sell very poorly. Bye Bye....

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

________________________________
Said "Gatwood, Elden J SAD ".....

Folks;

Speaking of Branchline and other kit manufacturers' box car offerings, are
there any plans you know of to offer additional paint and lettering schemes?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10 06:35:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10 06:35:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Red BallReefers

Rhbale@...
 

Stan is correct. K & D became Kadee, with the name coming from the first
names of the founders, Keith and Dale Edwards, who were identical twins.
Even as adults, they delighted in confusing people about who was who.

Richard Bale

In a message dated 6/24/2010 1:29:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
coronadoscalemod@aol.com writes:




Kadee was was formed by Keith and Dale Edwards. I always thought the K was
for Keith and the D was for Dale.

Stan Schwedler

--- In _STMFC@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com) , "Thom
Vanderlip" <thomasvanderlip@...> wrote:

JP,
Wasn't M. Dale Newton the Dee in Kadee? I seem to remember that from
somewhere in the cobwebs of time.
Thom




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


demise of kits

ed_mines
 

I think the facts that most model railroaders have 2 lifetime supplies of kits and that they ruin many of those kits when they try to build them are mostly responsible for the demise of kits. Better to buy one built up model and enjoy it on the shelf than have 3 more in boxes in the closet.

Now if we had some new blood coming into the hobby they'd be building up collections of boxes in the closet but that's not the case.

It must be tough on new guys to pay big bucks for everything.

Atleast they're potential customers for kits in the closet.

Ed


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Paul Lyons
 

Armand,

We have this discussion a number of times on this list. There is no way to compare the sales of resin kits to extruded plastic kits. I BIG run of a resin model is 300. Someone like Intermountain needs to sell a 1000 plus kits JUST to recovery the cost of the tooling! A "humble" math exerise here should explain the problem. 1000 kits to pay for the tooling and 1000 kits for a reason return on there investment, means the manufacturer needs to sell 2000 kits, at a minimum, to have a reasonably successful model! My numbers are probably low. So with sales of 300, the resin manufacturer is beaming from ear to ear; and if he managed to sell 2000 kits the plastic manufacturer is wondering if he wants to do that again. If plastic manufacturers could make a profit on 300 kits, I suspect we would have a model of every prototype freight car that was ever been built.

Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Armand Premo <armprem2@surfglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 7:39 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings




Andy,In my humble opinion there is plenty of room for both.Unfortunately undecorated kits lie dormant because of a lack of appropriate decals or dry transfers.How do you explain the popularity of resin kits and the multitude of laser cut building kits?Somebody must be buying them.The largest investment is in the cutting of dies.Once done, the cheapest part of the operation is decorating the car body for more than one era or one paint scheme.There are many who like to kit bash or further enhance current offerings.If there are any out there who might have kits that they aren't going to build get them out there so others who build, will.It is very difficult to have to strip a RTR car and reletter or super detail it.Until the manufacturers realize that there is a market for both ,I'll continue to spend my money on resin.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Carlson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:12 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Wasn't that long ago we were lamenting the disappearance of kits as companies such as Intermountain and Red Caboose were moving their production into mostly Factory assembled offerings.

Later, Branchline-Trains, with a rich catalog of pre-finished kits, joined the march into offering RTR cars.

Now we have Intermountain offering ZERO painted/lettered kits, only undecs are available. Same with Red Caboose. Branchline-Trains appears to be moving into only Yardmaster "shake the box" offerings, letting their very acceptable Blueprint line wither down to only undec kits.

When this trend started, I felt that the demise of kits was because the lack of offerings by the builders. Now I believe that they were probable correct, kits sell very poorly. Bye Bye....

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

________________________________
Said "Gatwood, Elden J SAD ".....

Folks;

Speaking of Branchline and other kit manufacturers' box car offerings, are
there any plans you know of to offer additional paint and lettering schemes?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10 06:35:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

95221 - 95240 of 186253