Date   

Re: Red BallReefers

Thomas Vanderlip <thomasvanderlip@...>
 

Stan,
You are absolutely right. Darn, not this is going to bug me until I remember..

Thom


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Rhbale@...
 

I think Vietnam and India are next in line.
Richard Bale

In a message dated 6/24/2010 10:58:50 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
timboconnor@... writes:





Global trade and containerization has chopped the cost of transport
to the bone. You guys need to get out and watch more trains!

I think it costs about $1000 to send a container from LA to
Chicago... that could be 50000 lbs of trains, say 100,000 models,
or... 1 cent per model, to ship it 2,000 miles by rail! And
ships charge much less than railroads (per mile).

Tim O'

Gene Green writes:

The thing that puzzles me is why models get sent all the way to China for
assembly. That seems to add about $10.00 to the price of each car.
Couldn't some enterprising, Spanish-speaking model railroader set up a kit
assembly plant in Mexico? Shipment costs would be lower and transit times
shorter.
------------------------

Dave Nelson replies:
The Yuan will likely continue rise against the Dollar over the next decade
-- as will Chinese labor expenses -- making Chinese Manufacturing less of
a
good deal. Who knows... it may turn out shipping plastic freight cars from
Mexico (in real freight cars) becomes a viable alternative.

Dave Nelson




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: B&O USRA Box Car Color - 1930's? D&H Caboose Red?

rwitt_2000
 

Jason Sanford wrote:

I am in the process of painting a USRA box car for the B&O circa
1930's. The Westerfield directions mention D&H caboose red is a near
perfect match. Only problem is floquil no longer makes this color.
Anyone have any ideas for a sub? Thanks.
Jason,

I just re-read my Westerfield instructions and they discuss cars painted
"bright red oxide" as the color match for the D&H caboose red. This is
for post-WWII paint and lettering. For the 1930s the B&O used a brown
freight car color with the best example being in a Jack Delano photo of
the Galewood Yard showing the end view of a B&O M-15 wood sheathed car
reasonably clean.

Here is the link to the Shorpy site:
http://www.shorpy.com/node/704?size=_original

The B&O box car is partially in the shadows. It is the rightmost car in
the third row from the bottom of the photo. It is the best example we
have for this color.

I hope this helps.

Bob Witt


Re: N&W Hoppers on Sherman Hill??

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:



Frank Peacock comes through with positive proof of an N&W hopper
on Sherman Hill:

UP Form 2639 shows N&W 78188 ( an H-2 I think) on a coal drag behind 9061E
on 11-23-47 with company coal for Chian. Also Gons or hoppers from MV, MP,
IC, C&IM, Alton, NSS, C&EI, PRR (Big surprise there), SOU, NKP, etc.
FHP (Frank H. Peacock)
MV? Midland Valley? Geeez. How many hoppers did they have? 7? Anyhow, several photos show MP hoppers on Sherman Hill...I'm particularly happy to see them in Laramie cause I kinda like the lettering and slogan. The video Big Boy Collection shows a C&EI hopper in a train heading into Hermosa Tunnel on The Hill and another includes a lone IC hopper...lost no doubt. My favorite photo, however, is found in the large book Union Pacific Railroad in Cheyenne. The photo shows a Challenger led freight on The Hill. Following the Challenger's tender is a lone, lost Lackawanna hopper...no doubt eager to rejoin its brothers and sisters somewhere east of Toledo...

Mike Brock


Re: demise of kits

Bill Welch
 

I don't know Brian, if you are really one thousand, nine hundred and thirty seven years old, I am very impressed that not only can you still build these kit but you are looking into the future.

And you consider yourself relatively young. What a great attitude and perspective!

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., Brian Carlson <prrk41361@...> wrote:

I have 300+ unbuilt kits plastic and resin. I sold two to Armand a while back. Bought some extra's from Clark recently too. I build them as I have time, Yet I am always looking for more to fill in the holes in the fleet. I am also as far as this list is concerned relatively young at 1937.
 
Seriously though this kit vs. RTR  discussion comes up every 6 months or so, (next week the bananna one will start), we should really turn it into a drinking game, and I don't even drink.
Brian carlson

--- On Thu, 6/24/10, rockroll50401 <cepropst@...> wrote:


From: rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: demise of kits
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 2:04 PM


 




At Naperville guys buy arm loads of kits from Martin. Last show a guy was selling his collection. I don't know how many kits there were, but there were a bunch. Maybe more that Martin's inventory?

How many more guys like him are out there with dozens of unbuild kits? Why would they want more?

I might buy something to build at the Nation Train show next month....Got my eye on that F&C little C&O DD. Have documentation of one on my RR with a lumber load. Got two lumber yards on the layout.

Clark "No Kit Stockpile" Propst








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Kits can often be found on eBay. Some are quite old; some fairly recent. Prices seem to reach both extremes; way too cheap and waaaaay too expensive.

Back in 1966 the Exchange at Fort Bliss closed out Northeastern kits for ridiculously low prices. My stash is almost gone. I have seen ads for current-production Northeastern snow plows at some relatively high prices but, at one time, these were state of the art.

Many (most?) of us have assembled Ambroid, Central Valley, LaBelle, Northeastern, Red Ball, Mainline and . . . there must be more than these. With careful assembly and some added details these kits came out looking pretty good and left us with a sense of accomplishment. Some followed a prototype pretty closely while I am not too sure of others.

My personal favorites were the Walthers metal/wood passenger cars (Oops, wrong group!). They were ill-proportioned but fun to build in my opinion.

The thing to notice about the kits mentioned above is that RTR versions would likely have been more expensive because of the difficulty of assembly. On the other hand injection-molded plastic kits go together pretty easily if assembled as intended. Any unskilled non-modeler can be trained to do it in a day. Is the absence of plastic kits really something we should bemoan?

The thing that puzzles me is why models get sent all the way to China for assembly. That seems to add about $10.00 to the price of each car. Couldn't some enterprising, Spanish-speaking model railroader set up a kit assembly plant in Mexico? Shipment costs would be lower and transit times shorter. I think all this adequately attests to the fact that my level of business acumen is near zero.

Gene Green
Always willing to change sides just to keep the argument going.


Re: N&W Hoppers on Sherman Hill??

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Frank,

           Many thanks for redeeming the PRR modelers with this one on Sherman Hill.

Fred Freitas
I am an SPF, and I am not afraid to say it.




________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, June 24, 2010 3:53:15 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Fwd: N&W Hoppers on Sherman Hill??

 

Frank Peacock comes through with positive proof of an N&W hopper
on Sherman Hill:

UP Form 2639 shows N&W 78188 ( an H-2 I think) on a coal drag behind 9061E
on 11-23-47 with company coal for Chian. Also Gons or hoppers from MV, MP,
IC, C&IM, Alton, NSS, C&EI, PRR (Big surprise there), SOU, NKP, etc.
FHP (Frank H. Peacock)
Tim O'Connor


Green Marked Coal

asychis@...
 

OK, in ads for Green Marked Coal, was the coal actually marked green in
obvious some way, and how would this be simulated for a model? Were there
other colors other than green?

Jerry Michels


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Peter Ness
 

So, basically what I'm hearing is that I'm fortunate to have a hobby
shop's worth of unbuilt kits in my basement because someday (and it
might be sooner rather than later) there won't be any more kits to buy?
I don't see a problem with my strategy <VBG>

I can sympathize with the "no inventory" group looking ahead to less (if
any) selection of offerings, and it could be true that I might be
subject of an untimely (to me, anyway) demise leaving many kits
untouched. A long time ago I used to get "angry" at almost every kit
manufacturer because they discontinued (plastic) or sold out the limited
run (resin) before I picked one up for my stash. Now I accept it's my
own darned fault for not gettin' while the gettin' was good. I've
learned and adapted and I'm fortunate that for the most part, decals
aren't an issue for roadnames I need. I will scream louder when
brakewheels, roofwalks, trucks and brake gear start to dry up than kits
decorated or otherwise.

For those who have been here for a while, lets not forget before resin
and plastic there was bristol board and balsa and bass wood - and they
weren't called "craftsman" kits, just kits. I think if I didn't have a
huge stash to work off I would invest in detail parts and sheet styrene
and make my own "kits". True, it wouldn't be as satisying or reassuring
to gaze at a stash of styrene sheet instead of a bunch of colorful
boxes, but I think I could make it work for me, and with products like
rivet decals and formed grabs and etched roofwalks, they don't have to
be as "crude" in appearance (except for my own ability).

For those who dearly miss the production of new kits, keep an eye on us
with stashes. I'm reasonably sure I won't part with any until someone
pries the Xacto knife from my cold, dead hand, but after that they will
mostly likely find new owners. Maybe there's some sort of symbiotic
relationship between kit stashers and those that lament the demise of
kits that needs some reaffirmation.

Regards,

Peter Ness

(reducing my stash the hard way - one kit at a time)


Re: IC hopper decals

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Jim--

Thanks! I'll have to get a hold of Sunshine.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...> wrote:

Steve, Sunshine sells an IC twin hopper kit,
http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun75.pdf
A little known fact is that Sunshine sells its decals. $3 for single color
decals, $4 for 2-color, $5 for 3-color, including mailing. And you don't
have to wait 6 months or more to get them. Probably just from 30 - 60 days.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com




IC hopper decals

Jim Hayes
 

Steve, Sunshine sells an IC twin hopper kit,
http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun75.pdf
A little known fact is that Sunshine sells its decals. $3 for single color
decals, $4 for 2-color, $5 for 3-color, including mailing. And you don't
have to wait 6 months or more to get them. Probably just from 30 - 60 days.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com


Re: NP Truss Rod Reefers

Paul Lyons
 

Richard,

Thanks for getting me straight. Now, in your vast array of frieght car photos do you have a picture of one of these reefers in the late 40's, early 50's?

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, Jun 23, 2010 10:50 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NP Truss Rod Reefers




On Jun 23, 2010, at 9:02 PM, cobrapsl@... wrote:

I recently bought a HO scale W&R brass Northern Pacific wood reefer
with a "fishbelly" center sill and a truss rod outboard on each
side. The car has the standard NP radial roof and a vertical brake
staff. It has a 1917 build date and is painted in company service
with a 1937 date, I believe the correct number series for these
cars were #94400-899; and #94900-95999. Road number of the model is
94564. My question is how long did these car run in revenue
service. Looking in my 1944 ORES, it shows 471 cars in these two
series and 62 are still shown in the 1950 ORES. I am having trouble
believing there were still 62 truss rod reefers running in revenuse
service in 1950. Was there maybe a re-numbering in the late 40's?
Any info is greatly appreicated.

Paul Lyons
Paul, your doubts are unfounded. Remember. those cars had fishbelly
steel center sills which took all the pulling and buffing forces; the
truss rods only supported the side sills. The cars were never
renumbered and the ORER data on cars remaining in service is correct.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Paul--

The numbers that you cite for RTR cars are not far IMHO from what I've seen cited on another group.

I started a thread on another list to poke a certain (excellent) RTR manufacturer to bring out CPR 2200-series coaches in RTR. It's a very distinctive car used by the CPR (65 built in 1949/50), British Columbia Railway, Algoma Central, and other Canadian roads. Some have run behind Soo Line 4-6-2 #2719. So far all that's available in HO for these cars is either a resin kit, or a (very nicely done) stand-in paint job on a commercial RTR car. Here's an example of the real car--

http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/AlgoCenRy/AC_426_Steelton_6-18-1983.jpg

I just about fell over when I was told by the president of that manufacturer the cost of tooling and production of a run of say, 1000-2000 of these--in China. Let's just say that some full-size houses are cheaper! Or more expensive to produce an RTR model than to to buy the real car and start to re-build it (but if I ever win a lottery, one of these cars might become my "money pit"...:) .

So I have an old resin kit for one of these coaches that I'm building and improving as I go along.

And I see no end to resin kits as long as we want models of equipment that would be frightfully expensive to produce in RTR.

Be thankful that IM offers undec kits. They can be good starting point for accurate models. And I have to give Dennis a lot of credit for his Accurail line of models. They are both solid S-T-B kits (that probably introduce many novices to model railways for a decent price), and also can be super-detailed/kitbashed easily. I do not know of any of Accurail's cars that are not based on a prototype. Are there cars decorated as foobies in his line? Sure. Know what? The guy has to make a living, and we STMFC'ers are too small a group on our own to keep him in business.

The cost of producing any plastic STMFC model being what it is, I fear that we will see foobies brought out for some time to come. Why? Simple--they sell. Period. Fortunately, those on this list have the intelligence and ability to not buy foobies, or to bash them to make an accurate STMFC--remember those IM undecs?

I think the bigger problem is getting decals/dry transfers for these cars one built. I know one Canadian manufacturer, Black Cat (of Winnipeg), who produces Excellent decals for modellers of Canadian STMFC's (and other stuff, too). But I'm still looking for a complete HO decal set for a couple of IC "Main Line of Mid-America" USRA gon/ twin-bay hopper rebuilds--decal suggestions welcomed for these very interesting cars so that I get the impetus to finish them...:/

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:


Armand,

We have this discussion a number of times on this list. There is no way to compare the sales of resin kits to extruded plastic kits. I BIG run of a resin model is 300. Someone like Intermountain needs to sell a 1000 plus kits JUST to recovery the cost of the tooling! A "humble" math exerise here should explain the problem. 1000 kits to pay for the tooling and 1000 kits for a reason return on there investment, means the manufacturer needs to sell 2000 kits, at a minimum, to have a reasonably successful model! My numbers are probably low. So with sales of 300, the resin manufacturer is beaming from ear to ear; and if he managed to sell 2000 kits the plastic manufacturer is wondering if he wants to do that again. If plastic manufacturers could make a profit on 300 kits, I suspect we would have a model of every prototype freight car that was ever been built.

Paul Lyons






-----Original Message-----
From: Armand Premo <armprem2@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 7:39 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings




Andy,In my humble opinion there is plenty of room for both.Unfortunately undecorated kits lie dormant because of a lack of appropriate decals or dry transfers.How do you explain the popularity of resin kits and the multitude of laser cut building kits?Somebody must be buying them.The largest investment is in the cutting of dies.Once done, the cheapest part of the operation is decorating the car body for more than one era or one paint scheme.There are many who like to kit bash or further enhance current offerings.If there are any out there who might have kits that they aren't going to build get them out there so others who build, will.It is very difficult to have to strip a RTR car and reletter or super detail it.Until the manufacturers realize that there is a market for both ,I'll continue to spend my money on resin.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Carlson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:12 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Wasn't that long ago we were lamenting the disappearance of kits as companies such as Intermountain and Red Caboose were moving their production into mostly Factory assembled offerings.

Later, Branchline-Trains, with a rich catalog of pre-finished kits, joined the march into offering RTR cars.

Now we have Intermountain offering ZERO painted/lettered kits, only undecs are available. Same with Red Caboose. Branchline-Trains appears to be moving into only Yardmaster "shake the box" offerings, letting their very acceptable Blueprint line wither down to only undec kits.

When this trend started, I felt that the demise of kits was because the lack of offerings by the builders. Now I believe that they were probable correct, kits sell very poorly. Bye Bye....

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

________________________________
Said "Gatwood, Elden J SAD ".....

Folks;

Speaking of Branchline and other kit manufacturers' box car offerings, are
there any plans you know of to offer additional paint and lettering schemes?

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Re: Red BallReefers

coronadoscalemodels
 

Kadee was was formed by Keith and Dale Edwards. I always thought the K was for Keith and the D was for Dale.

Stan Schwedler

--- In STMFC@..., "Thom Vanderlip" <thomasvanderlip@...> wrote:

JP,
Wasn't M. Dale Newton the Dee in Kadee? I seem to remember that from somewhere in the cobwebs of time.
Thom


Re: demise of kits

Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Brian,
Your suggestion here is probably the best thing I've heard on this subject for years.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., Brian Carlson <prrk41361@...> wrote:

I have 300+ unbuilt kits plastic and resin. I sold two to Armand a while back. Bought some extra's from Clark recently too. I build them as I have time, Yet I am always looking for more to fill in the holes in the fleet. I am also as far as this list is concerned relatively young at 1937.
 
Seriously though this kit vs. RTR  discussion comes up every 6 months or so, (next week the bananna one will start), we should really turn it into a drinking game, and I don't even drink.
Brian carlson


N&W Hoppers on Sherman Hill??

Tim O'Connor
 

Frank Peacock comes through with positive proof of an N&W hopper
on Sherman Hill:

UP Form 2639 shows N&W 78188 ( an H-2 I think) on a coal drag behind 9061E
on 11-23-47 with company coal for Chian. Also Gons or hoppers from MV, MP,
IC, C&IM, Alton, NSS, C&EI, PRR (Big surprise there), SOU, NKP, etc.
FHP (Frank H. Peacock)
Tim O'Connor


Re: Red BallReefers

Thom Vanderlip <thomasvanderlip@...>
 

JP,
Wasn't M. Dale Newton the Dee in Kadee? I seem to remember that from somewhere in the cobwebs of time.
Thom

----- Original Message -----
From: JP Barger
To: STMFC@yahoo
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 3:36 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Red BallReefers



Hello, Red Ball & reefer fans: I was recently talking with a person
knowledgeable about Red Ball's operations as an HO freight car kit
manufacturer. The prototypes for almost 100% of Red Ball's approximately 200
kits made by Howell Day in Dunellen, NJ fall into the 1910-1960 period and
almost all of them represent quite accurately their corresponding
prototypes, given the construction methods of WWII HO cars. An interesting
fact is that for one of the kits, there is no prototype. One of the cars
taken over by Howell, when the ownership changed from M. Dale Newton in
1955, was Elwood's Root Beer. Many years ago I learned that there is no
actual Elwood's Root Beer Company, and that MDN made up this carside to
tease one of his employees in Medford, Oregon. Do any of you STMFC members
know any more about this story? And, can you identify any other cars made by
M. Dale or Howell for which there are no prototypes?
I was just thinking that we see the humor in most of the names of fictional
companies put on layout buildings; Some of them are outright side-spltting.
But in this modelling group, we spend enormous time and resources trying to
get every detail of our freight car modelling to match its prototype. For
example, we read on this list in the last week about trying to chase down a
bogus company name on a doctored photo originally used for the purpose of
creating an ad for box car nailable floors. The doctoring attempted to make
the company into a railroad owner. It's an amusing contrast, don't you
think, between the exactness of our approach to freight cars; and, on the
other hand, the free license to rearrange building kits, name them anything
we like, or even free-lance them. I don't have a suggestion to deal with
these two different approaches. I don't even have an opinion-let alone
several different opinions, like some of our friends have. I just thought
you might enjoy the refreshing contrast between constructing cars and
buildings.


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Tim O'Connor
 

Athearn and Exactrail (and other vendors) still sell kits, including
their newest stuff. But they are undecorated, like Intermountain. From
what I read on other groups this is perfectly acceptable. The only
gripe is that availability of kits (except from Intermountain) is a
problem, since the tooling & manufacturing is now in China.

Tim O'Connor


Red BallReefers

JP Barger
 

Hello, Red Ball & reefer fans: I was recently talking with a person
knowledgeable about Red Ball's operations as an HO freight car kit
manufacturer. The prototypes for almost 100% of Red Ball's approximately 200
kits made by Howell Day in Dunellen, NJ fall into the 1910-1960 period and
almost all of them represent quite accurately their corresponding
prototypes, given the construction methods of WWII HO cars. An interesting
fact is that for one of the kits, there is no prototype. One of the cars
taken over by Howell, when the ownership changed from M. Dale Newton in
1955, was Elwood's Root Beer. Many years ago I learned that there is no
actual Elwood's Root Beer Company, and that MDN made up this carside to
tease one of his employees in Medford, Oregon. Do any of you STMFC members
know any more about this story? And, can you identify any other cars made by
M. Dale or Howell for which there are no prototypes?
I was just thinking that we see the humor in most of the names of fictional
companies put on layout buildings; Some of them are outright side-spltting.
But in this modelling group, we spend enormous time and resources trying to
get every detail of our freight car modelling to match its prototype. For
example, we read on this list in the last week about trying to chase down a
bogus company name on a doctored photo originally used for the purpose of
creating an ad for box car nailable floors. The doctoring attempted to make
the company into a railroad owner. It's an amusing contrast, don't you
think, between the exactness of our approach to freight cars; and, on the
other hand, the free license to rearrange building kits, name them anything
we like, or even free-lance them. I don't have a suggestion to deal with
these two different approaches. I don't even have an opinion-let alone
several different opinions, like some of our friends have. I just thought
you might enjoy the refreshing contrast between constructing cars and
buildings.


Re: Branchline and other box cars offerings

Tim O'Connor
 

Andy, the problem with Intermountain kits is the same problem with
many of their RTR cars -- they are (1) INACCURATE or (2) there may be
a better model available from another vendor (3) the folks at RPM meets
already bought the handful of accurate Intermountain kits they needed
when they were first released.

Intermountain and the other vendors really don't know much about freight
cars or what people really want. They find stuff that sells and just keep
making more of it, until sales drop off, and they move on.

The best solution (IMO) is companies like 5th Avenue Shops and clubs and
societies who can do the artwork, make sure it is done correctly, and have
small runs made of kits + RTR -- Intermountain and Accurail love this -
they get exactly the same profit margin as for other stuff, but they take
no risk at all! And modelers and societies love it because it gets them
the cars they really want, and clubs love it because it helps them raise
money for their layouts. The only people who don't love it are retailers
because they're out of the loop.

Tim O'Connor

At last year's Naperville meet, I sold freight cars at Martin's large sales room on Saturday. I brought a lot of fresh, direct from Intermountain, decorated kits recently found in their warehouse. I priced them with steep discounts, and even at the largest gathering of kit sympathetic modelers in the US, the RTRs I brought outsold the kits by a huge margin. I brought most of the kits home. Ted from Rails Unlimited had a huge selection of Intermountain decorated kits, and he told me that very few were selling. If the decorated kits don't sell at Naperville, how can we expect them to sell at the LHS in Peoria?

One manufacturer of HO freight cars told me that the labor in packing kits, and printing instructions, keeps the profit margins depressed in his kit sales.

-Andy Carlson

105981 - 106000 of 197031