Date   

Re: rivet decals

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: byronrose@juno.com [mailto:byronrose@juno.com]
regarding slicing off rivets from other cars....

Todd Sullivans method is a very respected and much used method. Look
closely at most of the patterns that Frank Hodina has made. I've even
suggested it for making tank car patterns. It may be the only method
available to us who cannot cut dies. But I shutter to think of the
eyestrain needed to keep the spacing in the diagonal rows consistent.
I asked Martin Lofton what he recommended for rivets and without hesitation
he suggested this method.

Dave Nelson


Re: rivet decals

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

B - Sorry about misspelling your name. (Not that this is an excuse, but you
should see the imaginative ways my last name is spelled. But as tis said, a
Rose by any other name . . .)
I agree with you as to trying to capture texture, especially if the size
and shape of tank car rivets are noticeable to you. (And now that you've
raised that point, this will become noticeable to the rest of us hitherfore
blind - like the emporer's new clothes.)
The idea of decals is that the film is thin enough to pass for invisible
and it is superflexible so it will bend around a curve. It is a way to
space the rivets evenly. So maybe thick ink is not the way to go for this
idea.
But suppose there was a way to machine place conical rivets of styrene
or other materials onto a strip of paper, the paper coated with varnish, and
then the decal film would contain and space the miniature Madonna's bras.
Or if the decal or the styrene wrapper was printed to give the spacing, and
you use that to glue the rivets. Maybe you could used the printed spacing
and slightly emboss each rivet location to help "seat" the rivet. I'm not
sure if any of these ideas are practical, but maybe they will inspire
someone to come up with a better idea.
- John


Re: rivet decals

byronrose@...
 

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:54:54 -0500 "John Nehrich" <nehrij@rpi.edu>
writes:
At the RPI club, we used to wince when Todd Sullivan explained
how he
created lines of rivets by slicing them off other plastic models and
glued
them on, one at a time. We would joke about making rivet decals.

Okay guys, since my name was mentioned (misspelled, no less) later in
Johans message, I felt the urge to respond. Actually, I have other urges
right now after 3 hours at this %$#@#$ keyboard, but I'll work them out
later.

Todd Sullivans method is a very respected and much used method. Look
closely at most of the patterns that Frank Hodina has made. I've even
suggested it for making tank car patterns. It may be the only method
available to us who cannot cut dies. But I shutter to think of the
eyestrain needed to keep the spacing in the diagonal rows consistent.

Varney used to make kits photographically, flat card stock with pictures
printed upon them including full shadows and weathering. As much as I'd
like a set of them as reference material, I hope we've moved beyond that
for modeling.

Another company made card sides with the raised lettering process (baked
on resin) (still used as cheap engraved invitations) to represent rivets
but not lettering. It's actually closer to scale for rivets than
anything mentioned so far.

The problem under discussion was making accurate tank car TANKS. Tanks
are assembled using a specific shape conical rivet which is about three
times the visual mass of a typical box car rivet and its conical shape is
very noticeable, even in HO scale. Try holding an InterMountain tank car
next to a box car or worse yet, a brass tank car, and the difference is
immediately visible. Where those printed strips will work for box car
type rivets, they would be quite noticeable as flat on a tank car; just
like those undersize pimples are noticeable on an etched brass tank car,
especially after you've seen a proper representation.

I've said this before but nobody seems to pay attention. I am not a
rivet counter. My interest in accurate models is the texture of the
models. Are the sides smooth from end to end or bumpy? Are the rivets
petit or honkers? Is the underbody sleek and clean or is it junked up
with pipes and levers all over the place? Is this box car shorter or
taller, longer or shorter (same word, different direction??) than that
one? Is this 10 year old car scruffier than that nicely rebuilt car just
out of the paint shop? Does that tank car have those big conical rivets
used on all tank cars until they started welding them?

BSR
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Tanks

byronrose@...
 

Before everybody sends me emails titled "You're Velcome" please read on.
The recent conversation about tank car underframes and kits got
something moving in the old grey matter and I decided to dig up some of
my old data to see if some people weren't trying to reinvent the wheel -
or tank as it were.

I will be speaking mainly in terms of modeling. The subject is using a
tank made for one manufacturers cars on a model of another manufacturers
product. Oh hell, let's get down to specifics. Using ACF tanks on
models of UTLX cars. Heres a little chart I made of the ACF types 21and
27 and the UTLX X-3 tanks. (I hope it retains it's form.)

gals dia len oh wb

ACF 8k 83" 28'-0" 2'-7.5" 22"-9"

21 10k 92.5" 28'-0" 2'-7.5" 22'-9"

ACF 8k 78" 31'-9" 3'-0.38" 25'-8.25"
27 10k 87.25" 31'-9" 3'-0.38" 25'-8.25"

UTLX 10k 87" 32'-0" 2'-0' 28'-0"
X-3

Okay, that's the easy part. Now the explanations:

1 That's not all the data I have, just all that's applicable to this
discussion. I do not have data on the UTLX 8000 gallon tank. I hope
Richard can supply it. The data is similar for 4000, 6000, and 12,000
gallon tanks, but of no importance here because no models of those sizes
are available.

2 The terms "dia" and "len" refer to the published INSIDE diameter and
length of the straight sides of riveted tanks. Another inch added to
"dia" should give you something fairly close to the outside and
measurable diameter of a model tank.

3 The term "wb" is the wheelbase of the platform the tank is placed upon
in service. It is also the center to center distance between the
outboard tank straps which hold the tank to the platform.

4 The term "oh" is my computed overhang of the tank beyond the tank end
band which is on the truck centerline, and incidentally, the crux of the
matter.

5 And not least, I am assuming that both LifeLike and InterMountain
tooled thir tanks fairly close to scale sizes.

The conclusion I come to is obvious. Although the ACF type 27 10k gallon
tank is close enough in size to pass for the X-3 10k tank, because
Intermountain chose to put the tank bands on the tank, it cannot be used
as such because it has those bands in the wrong place to represent a UTLX
tank. The bands are too far away from the end of the tank. That's what
gives the various tanks their different look, perhaps not as obviously,
but certainly as surely as the underframe details. That's precisely why
the Gould/Tichy tank and underframe are of so little value to modelers.

Before we can get the kind of accurate underframes and tank car models
everybody is screaming for, we will have to have more tank sizes
available to us. See my previous comments as to why a home-made pattern
is almost impossible. I'm not saying it's completely impossible, just
almost with the techniques available to us at the present time. I can
only hope that someone comes around to accept this challenge and prove me
wrong. But first and foremost, please, please, please get accurate data
from a knowledgeable source so as to not repeat the errors of the past.

Byron Rose
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Re: rivet decals

tgmadden <tgmadden@...>
 

OK, below is the post from Wayne Long, who checked out the Archer dry
transfer rivets much more thoroughly than I did. Wayne also goes over rivet
sizes, which may be of interest. I was wrong about it appearing on r.m.r -
it was on the old Passenger Car List in December 1999.

Tom M.
-----
I measured the thickness of the items in the sample sheet I purchased
from ARCHER. They are 0.02 mm thick. I think that that is something
like 0.00075", which would be only 0.065" in HO.

The following is what I sent to ARCHER after I examined the samples:

I can't use your rivet detail because they, simply, are to thin. A
real rivet does not have a flat head. Instead, the head is rounded.
Let me share the formulas relating to size in most railroad rivets.

The "size" of the rivet (in inches) is the outside diameter of the
shaft which goes into the two or more holes in the metal pieces
being riveted together. The diameter of the rivet head, where it
bears on a metal surface is size x 1.5 + 1/8". The head at its
highest point off the same metal surface is:
size x 1.5 + 1/8" x 0.425.

Apply this information to a standard 1" rivet and you get:

Shaft = 1" O.D.

head = 1 5/8"

head thickness = 11/16" + which is 0.22 mm in HO scale

Your rivet would have to be at least 0.22 mm thick and dome shaped
to simulate the prototype.

Hope this helps. Of course, rivets are of various sizes. Most
often, the ones cast into plastic HO cars/tenders are oversize. If
they were of "correct" size, we would not be as aware of them as we
are.

Wayne R. Long
------


Re: rivet decals

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Mar 21, 1:18pm, tgmadden wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] rivet decals
Bill Welch wrote:
The Archer sets were mentioned on r.m.r a year or two ago, and I bought
a
couple of sets. Nice definition, but they're flat rather than domed, and
way
too thin. Can't find the email correspondence concerning them right now,
but
I'll keep looking.

Tom M.
Tom,

Not to worry -- I've got 'em (the postings, that is). The
difference between the Archer idea and the "Nehrich" idea is that Archer
is using DRY TRANSFERS and not DECALS. I personally like the dry transfer
concept -- no film to hide. I still have a pipe dream of being able to
get strips of properly-spaced rivets that I can use to add ACR to my UP
box cars...

Message summaries (to save bandwidth):
---
Wayne Long wrote:

I measured the thickness of the items in the sample sheet I purchased
from ARCHER. They are 0.02 mm thick. I think that that is something
like 0.00075", which would be only 0.065" in HO.

[The prototype for a standard 1" rivet measures]
Shaft = 1" O.D.
head = 1 5/8"
head thickness = 11/16" + which is 0.22 mm in HO scale
-----
To which Tom Madden replied:

Great info, Wayne. Plan 3XXX Pullmans used 1/2" rivets in the belt rail
and in the long horizontal row at the bottom of the side, and 3/8" rivets
everywhere else in the side. Applying the above formula, the head
diameters would be 7/8" and 11/16", respectively. Or 0.010" and 0.008" in
HO.

----

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: rivet decals

tgmadden <tgmadden@...>
 

Bill Welch wrote:

Archer Fine Transfers offers these, although because most the popular armor
scale is 1/35th, they are probably too large. Tichy is offering rivits. I
bought some at Timonium but think they are oversized.too.


The Archer sets were mentioned on r.m.r a year or two ago, and I bought a
couple of sets. Nice definition, but they're flat rather than domed, and way
too thin. Can't find the email correspondence concerning them right now, but
I'll keep looking.

Tom M.


Re: rivet decals

Bill Welch <bwelch@...>
 

Archer Fine Transfers offers these, although because most the popular armor scale is 1/35th, they are probably too large. Tichy is offering rivits. I bought some at Timonium but think they are oversized.too.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 3/21/01, at 2:19 PM, BillD53A@aol.com wrote:

Someone makes dry transfers of rivets, and weld lines. They are used by
armor (army tank) modellers. A hobby shop that caters to plastic modellers
may carry them, but they are kind of exotic. I'll see if i can coe up with
the name of the company.


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Re: Rivet Decals

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Shawn - Bryon was stating the problem of making a wrapper for a tank car
that curved evenly - that embossing the rivets or casting them on a
cast-resin wrapper made the overlay bend in a series of short tangents - if
I remember what he said.
My point is that using thick ink, it might be possible to print a
three-dimensional shape deep enough for a rivet. On a black tank car it
would be as visible as any rivet is (assuming it worked).
- John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Beckert, Shawn" <shawn.beckert@disney.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 2:28 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Rivet Decals


Guys,

What happened to the use of "pounce wheels" (sp?) to make
rivet strips and patterns. I take it that's not state of
the art anymore? Decals are a nice idea, but I can't see
that working when you want to add some to a black tank car.

Shawn Beckert


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Re: Rivet Decals

Shawn Beckert
 

Guys,

What happened to the use of "pounce wheels" (sp?) to make
rivet strips and patterns. I take it that's not state of
the art anymore? Decals are a nice idea, but I can't see
that working when you want to add some to a black tank car.

Shawn Beckert


Re: rivet decals

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

John,

Your idea about the whole car decals is interesting, though not new.
CarLine used to offer specialty lettering on Athearn and other plastic
cars. The fellow who last owned the business told me many of his decals
were special whole-side pieces (or maybe two pieces) which eliminated
the decal film look and were very easy to apply--no cutting. CarLine was
a class act for its time, and the several models I owned looked very
good by the standards of those days.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

John Nehrich wrote:

... I've been using full surface decals for most of our buildings so being
able to decal a big sheet is not at all difficult. My project someday is do
whole car sides to capture the subtle effects of weathering, starting with
real photos of cars. The hardest thing is finding good period color photos
(not from a printed source like a book as you pick up the dot pattern). -
John


rivet decals

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

At the RPI club, we used to wince when Todd Sullivan explained how he
created lines of rivets by slicing them off other plastic models and glued
them on, one at a time. We would joke about making rivet decals.
When I was a kid, there was a candy that consisted of colored dots
(probably 101% sugar with food coloring) that were attached to what looked
like cash register tape. This is what we were thinking about with rivet
decals.
Now would be possible to make a series of dark crescents on a decal to
suggest the shadowing that rivets cause.
But when Bryon was explaining the problem of embossing rivets on thin
styrene for a tank wrapper, and how this in effect reinforced that area and
created a stiffer area, I got to thinking. There are expensive business
cards that are printed with a thick ink, so that you can feel the printing
when you run your fingers across it. So if someone make a black decal, say,
and then printed on the white lettering for a suitable tank car scheme and
then printed a series of dots with this thicker ink, the car could be
decalled all at once and create the rivets at the same time. And to do
different tank cars, such as multiple compartment/domes, you would just have
to change the printing instead of tooling costs.
Then if this was practical, maybe you could print everywhere with this
thick ink EXCEPT where you wanted a groove or seam and do box car and reefer
sides.
I've been using full surface decals for most of our buildings so being
able to decal a big sheet is not at all difficult. My project someday is do
whole car sides to capture the subtle effects of weathering, starting with
real photos of cars. The hardest thing is finding good period color photos
(not from a printed source like a book as you pick up the dot pattern). -
John


Re: Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy

byronrose@...
 

Richard,

Why not post the photo(s) here and let all of us take a crack at
identification? After all, where is it written that you have to do it
all? Besides, I'm sure there are some here who would love to embarrass
themselves. I know I would.

BSR

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:58:58 -0800 Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@opendoor.com> writes:
Tim O'Connor wrote:

I miss those "cars in the yard (or consist)" photo articles. Great
stuff!

Bob S. keeps leaning on me to do more, and I have several primo yard
shots
I could work with, but those articles take a hellacious amount of
time.
I've got another one on my agenda, but it won't happen until later
this
year.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Re: Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy

Richard Hendrickson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

I miss those "cars in the yard (or consist)" photo articles. Great stuff!
Bob S. keeps leaning on me to do more, and I have several primo yard shots
I could work with, but those articles take a hellacious amount of time.
I've got another one on my agenda, but it won't happen until later this
year.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: rivet decals

BillD53A@...
 

Someone makes dry transfers of rivets, and weld lines. They are used by
armor (army tank) modellers. A hobby shop that caters to plastic modellers
may carry them, but they are kind of exotic. I'll see if i can coe up with
the name of the company.


Re: Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

I have (courtesy of Tony Thompson) a couple of yard shots of the PRR yard
adjacent to the Pittsburgh produce terminal ca. 1947 showing a sea of
reefers, many of them easily identifiable, and I can send them to you as
JPEGs if you think they might be helpful.
Two great photos published in Railmodel Journal, Aug 1990. Mr. Hendrickson
identifies 45 of the cars in the 1941 photo. Same shot also in Great Yellow
Fleet. Other photo is from 1951, and my notes say 22 cars are identifiable.

I miss those "cars in the yard (or consist)" photo articles. Great stuff!

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

BTW, Greg Martin made the point in answering this question over on the PRR
list that reefer traffic would vary with the season...for example, the
Northeast would not get too many Norhtwest apples, due to production in
N.Y. and that navel oranges were a fall harvest while valencias were a
spring harvest, and most Northeast citrus probably came from Florida.
I can't speak to what travelled over the PRR, but I can address some of the
above erroneous assumptions attributed to Greg Martin--

Using the ICC's state to state waybill analysis from 1950:

APPLES: 16.67% of all of Washington state apples moved by rail were
delivered to the states of PA, NJ, NY, and MA. -- a percentage that works
out to an estimated 4800 reefers -- a not-so-insignificant number when
compared to rail shipments of apples from non-Washington sources to these
same states, an estimated 530 reefers, almost all of which were movements
between MA, NJ, NY, and PA and may well have included reshipments of
Washington apples. Shipments of New York apples to any location was less
than 1% of Washington state shipments.

ORANGES: California and Florida shipped an almost identical amount of
Oranges by rail, with 57% of the Florida tonnage ending it's rail journey in
PA, NJ, NY, and MA, which I estimate at 17800 reefers; But those 4 states
received 37% of California shipments -- 12700 reefers.

Virtually 100% of all grapes and lemons came from California, as well as
most Cantalopes, with total tonnage slightly in excess of Oranges --
adjusting for tonange/car differences, another 17000 reefers from the west
coast.

So the facts argue a) NY apples did not mean much rail tonnage. b) large
quantities of Washington state apples did ship to the Northeast. c) Florida
Oranges enjoyed a 1.4:1 shipment ratio advantage over California Oranges,
which hardly counts as "most". d) California produce dominated other states
produce shipments to New England.

I am reminded of a criticism I once heard applied to Coloradans, which went
kinda like this: "If it didn't happen in Colorado, it didn't happen". It
appears something similar might be said about the Pennsy.

Dave Nelson


Re: Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Howdy y'all,

Richard was kind enough to send me two JPEGS, and these are now posted to
the FILES area in a folder called "Pittsburgh Reefers". The first of these
scans seemed to develope some funny lines across it when I rotated it 90
degrees and saved it (over the old file, of course) - Richard, could you
resend me Pgh_Yard_1.jpg and I'll try to get a cleaner copy posted.

Great info in these two scans - you might even pull off some car #s!
Combine that with a look through Sunshine's all time list of cars from the
files area, plus a look through Westerfield, IM, and others and I might
just have the makings of a fleet.

BTW, Greg Martin made the point in answering this question over on the PRR
list that reefer traffic would vary with the season...for example, the
Northeast would not get too many Norhtwest apples, due to production in
N.Y. and that navel oranges were a fall harvest while valencias were a
spring harvest, and most Northeast citrus probably came from Florida.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

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Re: Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard - Always glad to post photos (http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad),
although some time it takes me awhile to get around to it. - John
Thanks, John. But in this case, I sent 'em to Bruce Smith, who
volunteered to post them in the STMFC archives, since he started the thread
in the first place.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard, anything you want posted, I'd be happy to put on Yahoo for you.
Thanks, Tim, I'll bear it in mind. But in this case, Bruce Smith has
already volunteered to do so, and as he started this thread in the first
place I've already posted the JPEGs to him.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

187681 - 187700 of 188615