Date   

Re: Bulk material

Clark Propst
 

Rick wrote: I have a pail of fine ore from the site of a very small washing plant a few miles east of Stewartville, near my brother's home.

Can you take a picture of that stuff. We've been trying to figure out what to put in the hoppers coming off the Ostrander wye on the layout. It would be outstanding to be able to copy the real thing!!!

If I remember correctly Chet French told me the cars tranferred to the IC had tags saying "Spring Valley fine" or "Spring Valley course".

The stuff I've seen for the cement plants here was like black sand.
Clark Propst


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Clark,
Iron ore is usually screened at the mine or beneficiation plant. Coarse and fine ore was shipped separately. Coarse ore could go straight into a blast furnace. Fine ore was usually sintered at the steel mill into chunks along with flue dust, mill scale, and other iron-bearing waste products, otherwise the fine ore would get blown out the top of the furnace. Slag, mill scale, and even scrap metal have been used as an iron source in cement plants. Iron oxides act as a flux to lower the energy needed to complete the chemical reactions in the kiln. Sounds like it could flux the kiln refractories as well! In steelmaking furnaces, refractory linings are chosen to resist a certain slag chemistry (acid or basic), and are damaged if the chemistry is off.

I have a pail of fine ore from the site of a very small washing plant a few miles east of Stewartville, near my brother's home. It's all under 1/4" particle size. At the same site, I picked up fist-sized chunks. The finer ores there were contaminated with silty clay, which was removed by a washing process to bring them up to grade.

There are/were some very small iron ore deposits scattered around Iowa and noted in various geologic studies, but I haven't run across any evidence that they were mined.

Cheers, Rick

--- In STMFC@..., cepropst@... wrote:


Rick,
Iron ore wasn't necessarily used in all applications. The mix had a nasty habit of stripping the coating out of kilns. So cement with iron ore added was made just before the kilns were scheduled to be re-bricked...or they would be anyway : ) I'm talking in the era of this list.
But yes, iron ore was used at the plants in Mason City. I was told a horror story of it taking a crew 6 days to empty a car in the winter. I ore I've seen for the plants was very fine. The ore I've seen at the Spring Valley MN museum was fairly large chunks. That's not to say the chunks won't be ground in a mill.
Clark Propst


Re: Bulk material

Clark Propst
 

I remember thinking I was going to need to buy some of those neat Canadian flat sided hoppers, made by ECW at that time, to bring potash to my layout's feritlizer plant.
I was talking about it to a railroad conductor. He said "What year you modeling?" I said 54. He said "Box cars."
Later I found out they also got potash from New Mexico. In one of the photos of the plant you can see a ATSF box car.
Clark Propst


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

Clark Propst
 

Rick,
Iron ore wasn't necessarily used in all applications. The mix had a nasty habit of stripping the coating out of kilns. So cement with iron ore added was made just before the kilns were scheduled to be re-bricked...or they would be anyway : ) I'm talking in the era of this list.
But yes, iron ore was used at the plants in Mason City. I was told a horror story of it taking a crew 6 days to empty a car in the winter. I ore I've seen for the plants was very fine. The ore I've seen at the Spring Valley MN museum was fairly large chunks. That's not to say the chunks won't be ground in a mill.
Clark Propst


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Clark,
I haven't found the reference yet, but I will post it here when I do. Some of my saved links on that topic are dead. There has been some discussion of the SE MN deposits on the Orerail group in the past, and I recall that I found the info you are interested in while researching an answer to a question there. It may have been in a state or federal minerals yearbook or a similar publication. Virtually every cement plant receives some sort of iron-bearing material, so the Mason City plants had to get it somewhere. I understand your desire as a prototype modeler to have hard documentation.
Cheers, Rick

--- In STMFC@..., cepropst@... wrote:

Rick asked. "Did you think I made that up?"

No, but you had to have heard it somewhere.
I model Mason City and know someone modeling the CGW in SE MN.
If there's any documentation of loads into the MC plants or of loads out of SE MN mines other than to Granite City we would love to see it.
Clark Propst


Re: Intermountain AAR 70-ton flatcars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:22 AM, bnsd45 wrote:

In looking back at the archives I noted several discussions about
the Intermountain 70 ton flatcars, which look very nice. There
have been at least 3 releases since the car was first announced. I
model just beyond the reaches of this list so I wanted to see which
schemes should be on my personal buy list.

Which schemes have the most accurate paint and lettering? I noted
a few cars that seemed to have overly large letters (B&O?), but
since I don't have easy access to photos of all of these cars I am
unsure. Has anyone made a list of cars that ranks them as dead on,
close, and stand-ins?

I think NYC is in the dead on camp, hoping for confirmation.

Also, am I correct in noting the bulkheads are correct for B&O? I
understand bulkheads were a railroad shop addition so finding more
than one example is tough...
David, I supplied IM with a lot of the information on these cars, and
as far as I can tell they followed the prototype photos quite
closely. I don't have all the flat cars, but the ones I've seen are
dead-on accurate for the cars as built. For your era, however,
almost all would have been repainted and all bets are off. Your best
course may be to buy undecs and letter them yourself on the basis of
photos. I can supply photoscans of many in their later P/L schemes,
if that's of interest. It's my understanding that the B&O guys
provided the data for the bulkheads, so they should be accurate for
the B&O cars (but only those). FWIW, the Santa Fe cars were all
rebuilt in the 1950s as pulpwood cars.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Was: cement travel: Small town cement dealers

Clark Propst
 

Just for clarification. They put the dry mix (batch) in the truck first, then add the water !

Clark Propst


Re: Was: cement travel: Small town cement dealers

Cyril Durrenberger
 

That is usually called a concrete batch plant.  Where they mix the cement and fly ash with sand and gravel, sometimes other things and water to make concrete which is then sent to the construction site.  For large projects they may mix the concrete on site.

Cyril Durrenberger

--- On Sat, 11/20/10, Nathan <obermeyern@...> wrote:

From: Nathan <obermeyern@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Was: cement travel: Small town cement dealers
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010, 7:42 AM







 









I've really enjoyed the discussion on the cement plants. I just want to confirm that the cement plants being discussed are the ones that produce the actual cement raw material that is then later mixed with sand/etc to make concrete.



My interest lies in the small town cement dealers who would receive that product produced at the cement plants via the railroad and then mix the cement with sand/etc and then sell it to the local community like Petersen's Redi-mix would in Blue Rapids, KS. I will upload a picture of the plant circa 1950s-1960s in the photo section under the album named "Obermeyer photo album" in the photo section.



Petersen's had the Big Blue River and sand pits near by so they wouldn't need to bring sand in by rail, but they would require the cement.



Thanks,

Nate






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Murrie1 wrote:
Many moons ago when I was getting my MBA degree the rule of thumb was that you wanted to "long haul" the raw materials (low value goods) and "short haul" the finished product (i.e. high value goods). I don't remember all the reasoning anymore, but I'm sure at least one reason had to do with the way freight tariffs were set back then.
This rule of thumb only works, of course, if there is a big difference in the two values. For cement, and for other building materials like brick and block, the difference isn't big (and the raw materials are found all over). Obviously for, say, washing machines, it's a different story.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

james murrie
 

Jeff;
Many moons ago when I was getting my MBA degree the rule of thumb was that you wanted to "long haul" the raw materials (low value goods) and "short haul" the finished product (i.e. high value goods). I don't remember all the reasoning anymore, but I'm sure at least one reason had to do with the way freight tariffs were set back then.
Jim Murrie

--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

Mike,

Should a factory be located near the raw materials, near the customers, or near a source of transportation?

In the case of cement, the plant tended to be near the raw materials.
In the case of soda ash, the plant tended to be near the customers.
In the case of beef, the plant tended to be near the transportation (but the "branch houses" were near the customers).

Regards,

-Jeff


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

Clark Propst
 

Rick asked. "Did you think I made that up?"

No, but you had to have heard it somewhere.
I model Mason City and know someone modeling the CGW in SE MN.
If there's any documentation of loads into the MC plants or of loads out of SE MN mines other than to Granite City we would love to see it.
Clark Propst


Re: Frank Brua

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

On 11/19/2010 9:07 PM, tmolsen@... wrote:
List,

Just a short note to advise that Frank Brua who owned Park Varieties in Southgate Michigan passed away about two weeks ago.

He will be missed!

Tom Olsen
More like 2 or 3 months ago. And as I'm trying to buy stuff he is already very badly missed. He ran one of the best mail order businesses I've ever done business with.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., cepropst@... wrote:

You have proof of this?

Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., "gettheredesigns" <rick@> wrote:

Yes, that was the primary destination, but carloads also went to Mason City for use in the cement plants. It was the nearest source for a necessary ingredient.

Cheers, Rick
Not in hand, but if I recall I read it in a CGW forum, posted by somebody with paper documentation. I can probably dig it up if you really need to see it. Did you think I made that up?

Regarding my comments about Florida phosphate, I specifically said "exported", and made no mention of phosphate distribution WITHIN the US. In the Midwest, the cost of rail transportation makes other, closer sources competitive. Deep-water vessels are the cheapest way on earth to transport bulk commodities, so if a customer on the other side of the globe is near a port on their end, Florida phosphate can compete with other sources. It is an example of the effect of transportation costs on the flow of bulk commodities, and therefore relevant to the discussion.

Cheers, Rick Aylsworth


Re: Bulk goods, was Cement ingredients, nee': cement travel

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

I've been greatly enjoying this discussion on bulk materials and their shipment by rail in the purview of the STMFC list.

Gravel, sand, and crushed rock was used in great quantitites in the Toronto, Ontario area post-WWII. A radius of 100 miles was cited from that city to gravel pits as the maximum distance that profitable aggregate extraction was practical. At lest one producer outside that distance opened a new quarry 90 miles east of Toronto on CN because of this.

Coal seemed to travel far greater distances, CN getting much of its steam loco coal from mines on the IC (and thereby causing me to take much interest in IC hopper cars). The CPR had its Southern Ontario loco coal car floated across Lake Erie from Astabula OH, a lot of it in PRR H21's. Some loco coal used by the GTR and later CN in Eastern Ontario came from the BR&P and later B&O from the Punxsutawney, PA area, being car floated across Lake Ontario from near Rochester, NY.

Many Southern Ontario coal dealers got their coal supplies from the anthracite roads. The nearest source of Canadian coal (and soft coal at that) in Nova Scotia was 1100 miles from Toronto, ON. Consequently a lot of anthracite moved through Southern Ontario. A smaller market was found in Southern Quebec, with B&O and other roads' hoppers being seen in steam-era photos of that part of Canada.

A bulk good shipped from Ontario to the US was and still is nepehline syenite, used in glass-making--

http://www.canadianencyclopedia.ca/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0005685

A gleaming white variety was moved in boxcars from its early extraction in Eastern Ontario in the 1930's. Later, CN and then CPR "slab-side" covered hoppers carried this material to US markets. The CPR still moves this material from a mine about 70 miles north of Rochester, NY. This is an example of a raw material that moves some distance because of its rarity in North America.

As an aside, I believe that iron ore is now supplied to China, Japan, and India almost entirely, if not wholly, by Australia. Some of the world's longest trains carry iron ore from mines in the Broken Hill area of New South Wales and the Pilbara region of Western Australia to Australian ports. Consequently, US iron ore seldom is exported to these countries.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "mike brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Getting back to cement travel...and actually, the travel of relatively heavy
and cheap non finished materials such as cement, cement ingredients, coal,
sand, ballast etc., I am curious about the transportation of both the
ingredients and the final product. I understand the advantages of locating
near major ingredients. The steel industry, for example, didn't choose Key
West or Kansas as a site for a major plant...although one might, I guess,
argue that both ingredients and final product would travel by water if Key
West were chosen...the cheapest form of transportation if speed was not
essential. Anyhow, back to Big Wyoming [ as the sign says when you cross
from CO to WY ], back in our time UP was moving significant amounts of soda
ash from Westvaco to Council Bluffs and KC. That is 835 miles to Council
Bluffs and one assumes it did not stop there. Note that one of the trains in
the 1956 UP frt conductor's book consists of about 50 cars loaded with
ballast traveling from Buford, WY, to Petersen, UT....439 miles. Moving that
much weight that far seems a bit expensive. So, just how far could stuff
like soda ash move before the cost of travel exceeded the value of the
product?

Incidentally, we are considering a "clinic session" during Prototype Rails
in Cocoa Beach regarding the coal industry to specifically include coal
traffic.

Mike Brock


Re: Was: cement travel: Small town cement dealers

Clark Propst
 

Nate,
"Cement Plants" make cement.
"Readi-Mix" (however you choose to spell it) or so called "Batch plants" mix, sell concrete.

One's a big place with big machinery and the other isn't : )

Around here railroad's covered hoppers were loaded for customers on-line.
I'd be interest to know how this was handled at plants served by only one railroad.

Clark Propst


Re: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

Aley, Jeff A
 

Mike,

Should a factory be located near the raw materials, near the customers, or near a source of transportation?

In the case of cement, the plant tended to be near the raw materials.
In the case of soda ash, the plant tended to be near the customers.
In the case of beef, the plant tended to be near the transportation (but the "branch houses" were near the customers).

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of mike brock
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:00 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel



Getting back to cement travel...and actually, the travel of relatively heavy
and cheap non finished materials such as cement, cement ingredients, coal,
sand, ballast etc., I am curious about the transportation of both the
ingredients and the final product. I understand the advantages of locating
near major ingredients. The steel industry, for example, didn't choose Key
West or Kansas as a site for a major plant...although one might, I guess,
argue that both ingredients and final product would travel by water if Key
West were chosen...the cheapest form of transportation if speed was not
essential. Anyhow, back to Big Wyoming [ as the sign says when you cross
from CO to WY ], back in our time UP was moving significant amounts of soda
ash from Westvaco to Council Bluffs and KC. That is 835 miles to Council
Bluffs and one assumes it did not stop there. Note that one of the trains in
the 1956 UP frt conductor's book consists of about 50 cars loaded with
ballast traveling from Buford, WY, to Petersen, UT....439 miles. Moving that
much weight that far seems a bit expensive. So, just how far could stuff
like soda ash move before the cost of travel exceeded the value of the
product?

Incidentally, we are considering a "clinic session" during Prototype Rails
in Cocoa Beach regarding the coal industry to specifically include coal
traffic.

Mike Brock


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

Clark Propst
 

You have proof of this?

Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., "gettheredesigns" <rick@...> wrote:

Yes, that was the primary destination, but carloads also went to Mason City for use in the cement plants. It was the nearest source for a necessary ingredient.

Cheers, Rick


Art Tharp's Website information

Bill <carrera356@...>
 

Can someone please forward me Art Tharp's website information.

Please send to carrera356@...

Thank you,
Bill Chattaway


Was: cement travel: Small town cement dealers

Nathan Obermeyer
 

I've really enjoyed the discussion on the cement plants. I just want to confirm that the cement plants being discussed are the ones that produce the actual cement raw material that is then later mixed with sand/etc to make concrete.

My interest lies in the small town cement dealers who would receive that product produced at the cement plants via the railroad and then mix the cement with sand/etc and then sell it to the local community like Petersen's Redi-mix would in Blue Rapids, KS. I will upload a picture of the plant circa 1950s-1960s in the photo section under the album named "Obermeyer photo album" in the photo section.

Petersen's had the Big Blue River and sand pits near by so they wouldn't need to bring sand in by rail, but they would require the cement.


Thanks,
Nate


Re: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

I think you'd have to consider also that out west a "PRR average" trip of 300 miles (or whatever) would often put the train in the middle of nowhere. Because everything is so spread out transit distances have to be much larger because the "points of interest" (production centers, manufacturing centers, population centers) are themselves that much farther apart.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: mike brock

Getting back to cement travel...and actually, the travel of relatively heavy
and cheap non finished materials such as cement, cement ingredients, coal,
sand, ballast etc., I am curious about the transportation of both the
ingredients and the final product. I understand the advantages of locating
near major ingredients. The steel industry, for example, didn't choose Key
West or Kansas as a site for a major plant...although one might, I guess,
argue that both ingredients and final product would travel by water if Key
West were chosen...the cheapest form of transportation if speed was not
essential. Anyhow, back to Big Wyoming [ as the sign says when you cross
from CO to WY ], back in our time UP was moving significant amounts of soda
ash from Westvaco to Council Bluffs and KC. That is 835 miles to Council
Bluffs and one assumes it did not stop there. Note that one of the trains in
the 1956 UP frt conductor's book consists of about 50 cars loaded with
ballast traveling from Buford, WY, to Petersen, UT....439 miles. Moving that
much weight that far seems a bit expensive. So, just how far could stuff
like soda ash move before the cost of travel exceeded the value of the
product?

Incidentally, we are considering a "clinic session" during Prototype Rails
in Cocoa Beach regarding the coal industry to specifically include coal
traffic.

Mike Brock

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