Date   

MDT book announced

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Some on this list may already know about it, but for anyone not yet informed, Signature Press has announced a forthcoming book about Merchants Despatch (MDT) by Roger C. Hinman. As Roger's post on this list, and his many clinics, have demonstrated, he's the right historian for this subject. We expect the book to be available for sale early in 2011. Here's a link to our "Forthcoming Titles" page if you'd like to read about it:

www.signaturepress.com/forth.html

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Rodger Ballast Cars

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

Karl...

A patent drawing dated 1901 of a Rodgers car shows the mechanism for either
your car or a very similar car...the same basic design was used in later
cars. It consisted of a round bar running the length of the car with several
chains connecting the car to the drop doors. Turning the bar opened or
closed the doors. A ratchet and lever on the end of the car turned the rod.

Jack Burgess
In soggy Newark on the other side of the Bay


Re: Bulk material and cement travels

Clark Propst
 

Chet wrote: "Life was good before the trucks invaded the mills in 1961."

I beleive trucks were allowed in the cement plants here in 60? They may not have started operations till 61?
The M&STL had a batch plant on line about a mile or so south of the cement plants. Before the local cement plants installed scales to weigh the covered hoppers on site the railroad would have to pull them about 4 miles south, past the batch plant, to weigh them. Then pull any loads for the batch plant back 3 miles north to spot them. Great fun on the layout. Beings there will be an empty there to take back south to the yard.
Clark Propst


Re: Iowa Iron Ore

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Thanks Howard, that's interesting. Tidbits like that are why I lurk in places like this.
Cheers, Rick

--- In STMFC@..., Howard R Garner <cascaderail@...> wrote:



There are/were some very small iron ore deposits scattered around Iowa and noted in various geologic studies, but I haven't run across any evidence that they were mined.

Cheers, Rick
Iowa did have one active iron mine.
This was located neat Waukon in northeastern Iowa on the Waukon branch
of the Milwaukee.
Mined from 1899 until 1918
Looked at again during WWII. In 1950 "a few car loads" were sent to
Gary, IN. 1958 Marquette Cement Co of Des Moines purchase the remaining
stockpile and slowly shipped it out for use in construction projects.

The above information is from "Grass Between the Rails - The Waukon Iowa
branch of the Milwaukee"

Also found this on the web.
http://scholarsmine.mst.edu/thesis/The_Goltra_process_o_09007dcc8065ed30.html


Howard Garner


Re: Rodger Ballast Cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Karl Peery wrote:
I think this is mostly directed to Tony Thompson. These cars are covered in S. P. Freight cars Vol.1 and a diagram is in Vol. 3.
In the SN book, these cars appear with SP and OA&E lettering. I assume the SP (happily) sold these (obsolete) cars to the OA&E. Do you know how many? I assume they would be painted "sunburn red".
I did not notice any indication of sale of these cars when perusing the SP car ledges at CSRM, though perhaps I just missed it, but I think it's reasonable that they were borrowed (or rented).

I am assembling a Rio Grande Models kit for their "PC&F Ballast Gondola. I assumed it is a Rodger car. It has some "structurally improbable" features. There is nothing in the instruction or parts to indicate any type of operating hardware. Are there any plans available for these cars, or photos of the operating mechanism. The diagram in Vol. 3 indicates some operating features, but it has to be more complex than what is indicated.
The Rodger Ballast Car Company did not manufacture cars but licensed the designs to be manufactured by regular car builders. There were a number of different car designs over the years, but your citation of the photos of cars on the OA&E do suggest the earliest Rodger cars. The cars were center-dumping only, not like the much more versatile Hart convertible ballast cars of a few years later. In the railroad industry journals around the turn of the 20th century, there were a number of articles about the Rodger cars, so I suggest searching there if you wish to do so. Most of those journals are available at the California State Library (not CSRM, the State Library a few blocks away), at UC Berkeley and at Stanford.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Southern Pacific Boxcar 2417

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:
This is a link to a photo of Southern Pacific boxcar 2417 in its last days in MOW service. The photo was taken in Schellville, CA, October 2008.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/2923691375/

Can anyone identify the original class this car was part of and perhaps an original number?
Paul Lyons is right, it's a B-50-15. Ken Harrison should be able to provide the revenue service number.

Tony Thompson
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937;
e-mail: thompson@...


Iowa Iron Ore

earlyrail
 


There are/were some very small iron ore deposits scattered around Iowa and noted in various geologic studies, but I haven't run across any evidence that they were mined.

Cheers, Rick
Iowa did have one active iron mine.
This was located neat Waukon in northeastern Iowa on the Waukon branch of the Milwaukee.
Mined from 1899 until 1918
Looked at again during WWII. In 1950 "a few car loads" were sent to Gary, IN. 1958 Marquette Cement Co of Des Moines purchase the remaining stockpile and slowly shipped it out for use in construction projects.

The above information is from "Grass Between the Rails - The Waukon Iowa branch of the Milwaukee"

Also found this on the web.
http://scholarsmine.mst.edu/thesis/The_Goltra_process_o_09007dcc8065ed30.html


Howard Garner


Re: Bulk material and cement travels

cef39us <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., cepropst@... wrote:


Rick wrote: I have a pail of fine ore from the site of a very small washing plant a few miles east of Stewartville, near my brother's home.

Can you take a picture of that stuff. We've been trying to figure out what to put in the hoppers coming off the Ostrander wye on the layout. It would be outstanding to be able to copy the real thing!!!

If I remember correctly Chet French told me the cars tranferred to the IC had tags saying "Spring Valley fine" or "Spring Valley course".

The stuff I've seen for the cement plants here was like black sand.

Clark,

You remembered correctly. The iron ore delivered by the CGW to the IC for movement to Granite City was tagged either "Spring Valley fine"
and "Spring Valley course". I don't recall if I ever climbed up and
looked into the cars to see the difference in the two grades.

Speaking of cement, the four cement plants located on the district I
worked on, shipped their product about 100 to 300 miles. Much of the covered hopper loads went to distribution silos in the Chicago area,
with some going into the Milwaukee area. One regular short move was to a Redi-Mix plant sixty miles away. The three plants in LaSalle/Oblesby,IL were served by the IC, MILW, RI, and CBQ. Some cement also moved via IC-LSBC-Churchill-CNW. The Medusa plant at Dixon was served by the IC and CNW. Most of the cement from there also went to distribution silos in the Chicago and Milwaukee area.
Medusa also shipped regularly to Manitowoc, Wis. The longest move I can recall happened a few years after the timeline of this list when one of the plant in LaSalle shipped several hundred cars to an airport
or air base project in one of the Dakotas. The shortest move was from Medusa to the local lumber yard with bagged cement and to the local Redi-Mix with covered hopper loads. Life was good before the trucks invaded the mills in 1961.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Rodger Ballast Cars

kpeery@...
 

I think this is mostly directed to Tony Thompson. These cars are covered in S. P. Freight cars Vol.1 and a diagram is in Vol. 3.

In the SN book, these cars appear with SP and OA&E lettering. I assume the SP (happily) sold these (obsolete) cars to the OA&E. Do you know how many? I assume they would be painted "sunburn red".

I am assembling a Rio Grande Models kit for their "PC&F Ballast Gondola. I assumed it is a Rodger car. It has some "structurally improbable" features. There is nothing in the instruction or parts to indicate any type of operating hardware. Are there any plans available for these cars, or photos of the operating mechanism. The diagram in Vol. 3 indicates some operating features, but it has to be more complex than what is indicated.

RGM says the prototype is on display in Prineville, Oregon.

Questions? Comments? Thanks,

Karl Peery
In soggy (today) Daly City, CA


Re: Gondolas with cement containers

Larry Sexton
 

A.T.



Some of the 46' NYC gondolas we have been discussing were converted to carry
lime and cement rectangular containers and I believe there was a reference
to wire mesh as part of the gondola floors. Its late now in Florida, but in
the morning I'll locate and send out the references to those cars.
Unfortunately, I have no photos showing the inside of any of these other
gondolas.



Larry Sexton



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
proto48er
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:25 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gondolas with cement containers





Ron & Larry -

I surely would like to see a photo of one of those NYC 1946 conversion
(5-container) gondolas floors! The floors were steel instead of wood. Steel
plate or steel mesh??

The only decent 5-container gon photo I have seen with good side detail
shows a sea of rivets on the side, indicating that it was converted from one
of the earlier 12-rectangular brick container cars! Not all of the 1946
conversions were ex-brick container cars, however. These brick container
cars had shoes riveted inside the sides to hold the containers in place, but
they had wood floors originally. The conversion to air activated container
service involved cutting the shoes horizontally and installing a pair of
horizontal strengthening angles inside the car level with the top of the
holes in the sides.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , ronald
parisi <ronald.parisi@...> wrote:

Dear Larry:

My NYC equipment diagrams show that the NYC container gons were converted
from 2 lots of existing 46' (inside dimension gons).
The first lot (#337) of gons were built in 1919 . The second lot (#557) I
can find no build date for, but notes indicate that 99 cars were converted
in march of 1946 for handling air activated containers. I too will try and
scan and send the diagrams.

Would whom ever had the photos of the LCL container Gon interior consider
sharing or selling copies of them?

Ron Parisi




Re: Southern Pacific Boxcar 2417

Paul Lyons
 

It is a B-50-15.

Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob C <thecitrusbelt@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sat, Nov 20, 2010 7:41 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Southern Pacific Boxcar 2417




This is a link to a photo of Southern Pacific boxcar 2417 in its last days in MOW service. The photo was taken in Schellville, CA, October 2008.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/2923691375/

Can anyone identify the original class this car was part of and perhaps an original number?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Southern Pacific Boxcar 2417

Bob C <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

This is a link to a photo of Southern Pacific boxcar 2417 in its last days in MOW service. The photo was taken in Schellville, CA, October 2008.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/2923691375/

Can anyone identify the original class this car was part of and perhaps an original number?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Hi Al,
Hmmmm--I can't give you specifics back to 1880, but by 1910 or so, the value of processing iron ore to improve the smelting quality was widely recognized. In the early days there was more of the very high grade "direct-shipping" ores available, but in general, furnace operators were less particular. The iron and steel making process was more labor intensive back then, but labor was very cheap.
Direct-shipping ores were scooped up in the pit, loaded into ore cars, and used in the blast furnace as-is. Lower-grade ores were largely bypassed until later in history, and here in MN, this was encouraged by the tax laws. By WW2, most MN iron ore was crushed, screened, and/or concentrated in some way. By the 50's, the taconite process of mining hard low-grade ore (taconite), grinding it to powder, concentrating it magnetically, and forming it into uniform spherical pellets became a commercial reality, after years of research, and a change in state tax laws pertaining to iron ore that made it economical. In the 60's it was recognized that using strictly pellets in the blast furnace dramatically improved productivity, because of the high purity and the fact that the pellets smelted quickly. I should make clear that my knowledge of the subject applies primarily to Great Lakes region ores; there were very different types of iron ores mined in other parts of the country.

Having blabbed all that, I'm not sure if I answered your question. Ore straight from the pit would be a mix of fine and coarse material, with Mesabi Range ores tending to be fine and earthy, like dirt. Harder ores looked like crushed rock (go figure), with a wide range of particle sizes. As previously stated, screened ores were shipped as their coarse and fine fractions, and looked dfferent in the cars. Ore from different mines, and even ore from the same ore body, could vary dramatically in color, texture, and chemical analysis. Sometimes different types were more valuable if kept separate, but usually they were systematically mixed to get a more uniform grade, or to make low-grade ore usable by mixing it with high-grade ore. Furnace operators prefer a uniform, predictable analysis, high iron content, and an absence of fines. The modern concentrated and pelletized ores meet that goal perfectly.

Fire away, I love the subject and the opportunity to share.
Cheers, Rick

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



Rick,



At what time frame are we talking about?   What happened very ore sizes in the 1880-WW1?



Al Kresse


----- Original Message -----
From: "gettheredesigns" <rick@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 5:53:19 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

Clark,
Iron ore is usually screened at the mine or beneficiation plant. Coarse and fine ore was shipped separately. Coarse ore could go straight into a blast furnace. Fine ore was usually sintered at the steel mill into chunks along with flue dust, mill scale, and other iron-bearing waste products, otherwise the fine ore would get blown out the top of the furnace. Slag, mill scale, and even scrap metal have been used as an iron source in cement plants. Iron oxides act as a flux to lower the energy needed to complete the chemical reactions in the kiln. Sounds like it could flux the kiln refractories as well! In steelmaking furnaces, refractory linings are chosen to resist a certain slag chemistry (acid or basic), and are damaged if the chemistry is off.


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

water.kresse@...
 

Rick,



At what time frame are we talking about?   What happened very ore sizes in the 1880-WW1?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "gettheredesigns" <rick@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 5:53:19 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

Clark,
Iron ore is usually screened at the mine or beneficiation plant. Coarse and fine ore was shipped separately. Coarse ore could go straight into a blast furnace. Fine ore was usually sintered at the steel mill into chunks along with flue dust, mill scale, and other iron-bearing waste products, otherwise the fine ore would get blown out the top of the furnace. Slag, mill scale, and even scrap metal have been used as an iron source in cement plants. Iron oxides act as a flux to lower the energy needed to complete the chemical reactions in the kiln. Sounds like it could flux the kiln refractories as well! In steelmaking furnaces, refractory linings are chosen to resist a certain slag chemistry (acid or basic), and are damaged if the chemistry is off.

I have a pail of fine ore from the site of a very small washing plant a few miles east of Stewartville, near my brother's home. It's all under 1/4" particle size. At the same site, I picked up fist-sized chunks. The finer ores there were contaminated with silty clay, which was removed by a washing process to bring them up to grade.

There are/were some very small iron ore deposits scattered around Iowa and noted in various geologic studies, but I haven't run across any evidence that they were mined.

Cheers, Rick

--- In STMFC@..., cepropst@... wrote:


Rick,
Iron ore wasn't necessarily used in all applications. The mix had a nasty habit of stripping the coating out of kilns. So cement with iron ore added was made just before the kilns were scheduled to be re-bricked...or they would be anyway : ) I'm talking in the era of this list.
But yes, iron ore was used at the plants in Mason City. I was told a horror story of it taking a crew 6 days to empty a car in the winter. I ore I've seen for the plants was very fine. The ore I've seen at the Spring Valley MN museum was fairly large chunks. That's not to say the chunks won't be ground in a mill.
Clark Propst


Re: Gondolas with cement containers

proto48er
 

Ron & Larry -

I surely would like to see a photo of one of those NYC 1946 conversion (5-container) gondolas floors! The floors were steel instead of wood. Steel plate or steel mesh??

The only decent 5-container gon photo I have seen with good side detail shows a sea of rivets on the side, indicating that it was converted from one of the earlier 12-rectangular brick container cars! Not all of the 1946 conversions were ex-brick container cars, however. These brick container cars had shoes riveted inside the sides to hold the containers in place, but they had wood floors originally. The conversion to air activated container service involved cutting the shoes horizontally and installing a pair of horizontal strengthening angles inside the car level with the top of the holes in the sides.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., ronald parisi <ronald.parisi@...> wrote:

Dear Larry:

My NYC equipment diagrams show that the NYC container gons were converted
from 2 lots of existing 46' (inside dimension gons).
The first lot (#337) of gons were built in 1919 . The second lot (#557) I
can find no build date for, but notes indicate that 99 cars were converted
in march of 1946 for handling air activated containers. I too will try and
scan and send the diagrams.

Would whom ever had the photos of the LCL container Gon interior consider
sharing or selling copies of them?

Ron Parisi




Re: Bulk material

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Clark, send me your mailing address off list, and I'll send you a little package of ore. The ore is a medium brown color, not reddish at all.

Black sand? That sounds more like blast furnace slag, or possibly magnetite concentrate, both of which could serve the same purpose in the cement recipe.

Cheers, Rick

--- In STMFC@..., cepropst@... wrote:


Rick wrote: I have a pail of fine ore from the site of a very small washing plant a few miles east of Stewartville, near my brother's home.

Can you take a picture of that stuff. We've been trying to figure out what to put in the hoppers coming off the Ostrander wye on the layout. It would be outstanding to be able to copy the real thing!!!

If I remember correctly Chet French told me the cars tranferred to the IC had tags saying "Spring Valley fine" or "Spring Valley course".

The stuff I've seen for the cement plants here was like black sand.
Clark Propst


Re: Bulk material

Clark Propst
 

Rick wrote: I have a pail of fine ore from the site of a very small washing plant a few miles east of Stewartville, near my brother's home.

Can you take a picture of that stuff. We've been trying to figure out what to put in the hoppers coming off the Ostrander wye on the layout. It would be outstanding to be able to copy the real thing!!!

If I remember correctly Chet French told me the cars tranferred to the IC had tags saying "Spring Valley fine" or "Spring Valley course".

The stuff I've seen for the cement plants here was like black sand.
Clark Propst


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Clark,
Iron ore is usually screened at the mine or beneficiation plant. Coarse and fine ore was shipped separately. Coarse ore could go straight into a blast furnace. Fine ore was usually sintered at the steel mill into chunks along with flue dust, mill scale, and other iron-bearing waste products, otherwise the fine ore would get blown out the top of the furnace. Slag, mill scale, and even scrap metal have been used as an iron source in cement plants. Iron oxides act as a flux to lower the energy needed to complete the chemical reactions in the kiln. Sounds like it could flux the kiln refractories as well! In steelmaking furnaces, refractory linings are chosen to resist a certain slag chemistry (acid or basic), and are damaged if the chemistry is off.

I have a pail of fine ore from the site of a very small washing plant a few miles east of Stewartville, near my brother's home. It's all under 1/4" particle size. At the same site, I picked up fist-sized chunks. The finer ores there were contaminated with silty clay, which was removed by a washing process to bring them up to grade.

There are/were some very small iron ore deposits scattered around Iowa and noted in various geologic studies, but I haven't run across any evidence that they were mined.

Cheers, Rick

--- In STMFC@..., cepropst@... wrote:


Rick,
Iron ore wasn't necessarily used in all applications. The mix had a nasty habit of stripping the coating out of kilns. So cement with iron ore added was made just before the kilns were scheduled to be re-bricked...or they would be anyway : ) I'm talking in the era of this list.
But yes, iron ore was used at the plants in Mason City. I was told a horror story of it taking a crew 6 days to empty a car in the winter. I ore I've seen for the plants was very fine. The ore I've seen at the Spring Valley MN museum was fairly large chunks. That's not to say the chunks won't be ground in a mill.
Clark Propst


Re: Bulk material

Clark Propst
 

I remember thinking I was going to need to buy some of those neat Canadian flat sided hoppers, made by ECW at that time, to bring potash to my layout's feritlizer plant.
I was talking about it to a railroad conductor. He said "What year you modeling?" I said 54. He said "Box cars."
Later I found out they also got potash from New Mexico. In one of the photos of the plant you can see a ATSF box car.
Clark Propst


Re: Bulk material was: Cement ingredients, Was: cement travel

Clark Propst
 

Rick,
Iron ore wasn't necessarily used in all applications. The mix had a nasty habit of stripping the coating out of kilns. So cement with iron ore added was made just before the kilns were scheduled to be re-bricked...or they would be anyway : ) I'm talking in the era of this list.
But yes, iron ore was used at the plants in Mason City. I was told a horror story of it taking a crew 6 days to empty a car in the winter. I ore I've seen for the plants was very fine. The ore I've seen at the Spring Valley MN museum was fairly large chunks. That's not to say the chunks won't be ground in a mill.
Clark Propst

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