Date   

Re: livestock shipments

rwitt_2000
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
"Railroads that followed that practice included the Santa Fe, Great
Northern, Union Pacific, Chicago & Northwestern, Rio Grande, Rock
Island, New York Central, Grand Trunk Western, Western Pacific,
and doubtless a bunch of others that don't come immediately to mind.

Bruce Smith replied:
"And PRR and B&O..."

Richard Hendrickson responded:
"But in the '60s, not during the period covered by this list, n'est ce
pas?"

Benjamin Hom added:

For the PRR Class K9, K11, ex-Erie K12 and B&O Class S-1
cars from the 1960s, yes; however, the largest group of stock cars
on the Pennsy before the K9 and K11 cars were converted from Class
X32 and subclass starting in 1959 were the Class K7A cars rebuilt
from obsolescent Class X24 automobile cars in 1936. This is the car
modeled by the Broadway Limited (and no, it isn't accurate for roads
not named PRR). In fact, PRR would not acquire any new stockcars
after the Class K8 cars in 1924, though it considered acquiring
new Class K10 cars in 1959, but instead chose to go with the rebuilt
cars.
The B&O built two classes of stock cars from former class M-26 ARA
boxcars built in the late 1920s by increasing the length to 50-ft.

The class S-1 were single deck and the class S-2 were double deck.

Prior to 1960 the B&O leased their stocks cars from Mather and then
North American.

Bob Witt


Re: October 1944-December 1945 ORER help needed

Ian Cranstone
 

On 2010-11-29, at 7:25 AM, Bill Welch wrote:

Gentlemen:

I have a gap in my collection of FGE/WFE/BRE related pages for the
six issues between October 1944 through December 1945. I have a plan
to fill most if not all of these gaps but for the moment I would
appreciate some help with three questions related to three groups of
similar Fruit Growers Express cars.

At some point between July 1944 and April 1946 FGE added entries for
three groups of 50-foot overhead bunker cars: FOBX 775-799, FOBX
4000-4175 and FOBX 4975-4999. I would like to be able to identify as
precisely as possible when these cars began to be added to FGE's
fleet. Also during this time FGE changed the ten cars in the FGEX
600-650 series to FOBX 600-650. I would like to narrow down when this
change was made.

I'm missing the July & October 1945 issues, but the others show:

FGEX or FOBX 775-799 not listed (4/45), ... (1/46)
FGEX 4000-4174 1 (10/44)
FGEX or FOBX 4000-4174 6 (1/45), 56 (4/45), 175 (1/46)
FGEX 4975-4999 ... (10/44)
FGEX or FOBX 4975-4999 ... (1/45), ... (4/45), 25 (1/46)
FGEX 600-650 10 (10/44)
FGEX or FOBX 600-650 10 (1/45), 10 (4/45), 10 (1/46)

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net


Re: More ORER help requested-1957-58

Ian Cranstone
 

On 2010-12-06, at 3:31 PM, Bill Welch wrote:

Until I can add FGE/WFE/BRE/NX pages for the 1957 (and probably 1958)
ORER's, I would like some more help related to my Cocoa Beach
Presentation with a few series of 50-foot mechanicals added in 1957
and one 40-foot WFE group.

All of the groups are listed in the October 1956 pages I have. What I
would like to know is: When the first cars actually appeared in the
1957 and how many cars (or possibly the January 1958 ORER if they
were built in late 1957).

Here are the groups I need
FGEX 10000-10099
WFEX 7900-7949 (40-ft); 7950-7999 (50-ft)
BREX 5000-5049; 5050-5059; 5060-5069: may be listed as 5000-5059 and
5060-5069 or 5000-5069
Here you go Bill...

BREX 5000-5059 ... (1/57), 24 (4/57), 60 (7/57), 60 (10/57), 60 (1/58)
BREX 5060-5069 ... (1/57), ... (4/57), 10 (7/57), 10 (10/57), 10 (1/58)
FGEX 10000-10099 ... (1/57), ... (4/57), ... (7/57), 39 (10/57), 100 (1/58)
WFEX 7900-7949 ... (1/57), ... (4/57), ... (7/57), ... (10/57), 50 (1/58)
WFEX 7950-7999 ... (1/57), ... (4/57), ... (7/57), ... (10/57), 50 (1/58)

All series listed as noted above.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net


More ORER help requested-1957-58

Bill Welch
 

Gentlemen:

Until I can add FGE/WFE/BRE/NX pages for the 1957 (and probably 1958)
ORER's, I would like some more help related to my Cocoa Beach
Presentation with a few series of 50-foot mechanicals added in 1957
and one 40-foot WFE group.

All of the groups are listed in the October 1956 pages I have. What I
would like to know is: When the first cars actually appeared in the
1957 and how many cars (or possibly the January 1958 ORER if they
were built in late 1957).

Here are the groups I need
FGEX 10000-10099
WFEX 7900-7949 (40-ft); 7950-7999 (50-ft)
BREX 5000-5049; 5050-5059; 5060-5069: may be listed as 5000-5059 and
5060-5069 or 5000-5069

Thanks for any help you can lend.

Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...


Re: livestock shipments

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Except for something as rough and crude as a stockcar, it was still advantageous to rebuild a car and capitalize a small amount rather than capitalize the larger cost of a new car. The math likely no longer worked for reefers, as while the cost of the rebuild might be less than a new car, the life expectancy of the rebuild was also less. But for stockcars the numbers apparently still worked.
Sure, it was a cheaper way to obtain stock cars vs. new cars, but not because of the taxes. That's what Richard pointed out and I was just agreeing with him.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: livestock shipments

Benjamin Hom
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
"Railroads that followed that practice included the Santa Fe, Great
Northern, Union Pacific, Chicago & Northwestern, Rio Grande, Rock
Island, New York Central, Grand Trunk Western, Western Pacific,
and doubtless a bunch of others that don't come immediately to mind.

Bruce Smith replied:
"And PRR and B&O..."

Richard Hendrickson responded:
"But in the '60s, not during the period covered by this list, n'est ce
pas?"

For the PRR Class K9, K11, ex-Erie K12 and B&O Class S-1
cars from the 1960s, yes; however, the largest group of stock cars
on the Pennsy before the K9 and K11 cars were converted from Class
X32 and subclass starting in 1959 were the Class K7A cars rebuilt
from obsolescent Class X24 automobile cars in 1936.  This is the car
modeled by the Broadway Limited (and no, it isn't accurate for roads
not named PRR).  In fact, PRR would not acquire any new stockcars
after the Class K8 cars in 1924, though it considered acquiring
new Class K10 cars in 1959, but instead chose to go with the rebuilt
cars.


Ben Hom


Re: livestock shipments

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
A plausible speculation, Doug, with one exception: by the 1950s,
the tax laws no longer made it advantageous to rebuild older cars
rather than buying new ones.
Richard is entirely right. It was in late 1948 that the IRS
changed considerably the regulations about rebuilt cars, no longer
allowing the cost of rebuilding them to be "expensed" against income.
A number of previously active rebuilders, such as PFE, paid a big back
tax bill and immediately stopped rebuilding altogether.
Except for something as rough and crude as a stockcar, it was still advantageous to rebuild a car and capitalize a small amount rather than capitalize the larger cost of a new car. The math likely no longer worked for reefers, as while the cost of the rebuild might be less than a new car, the life expectancy of the rebuild was also less. But for stockcars the numbers apparently still worked.

Dennis


Re: livestock shipments

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 6, 2010, at 11:29 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

On Dec 6, 2010, at 1:19 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Railroads that
followed that practice included the Santa Fe, Great Northern, Union
Pacific, Chicago & Northwestern, Rio Grande, Rock Island, New York
Central, Grand Trunk Western, Western Pacific, and doubtless a bunch
of others that don't come immediately to mind.
You can add both SP and T&NO, which had different approaches but
which both did such conversions. And between them, they owned a
pretty
big fleet of stock cars.
And PRR and B&O...
But in the '60s, not during the period covered by this list, n'est ce
pas?

Richard Hendrickson


Re: livestock shipments

al_brown03
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Dec 6, 2010, at 1:19 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Railroads that
followed that practice included the Santa Fe, Great Northern,
Union Pacific, Chicago & Northwestern, Rio Grande, Rock Island,
New York Central, Grand Trunk Western, Western Pacific, and
doubtless a bunch of others that don't come immediately to mind.
You can add both SP and T&NO, which had different approaches
but which both did such conversions. And between them, they
owned a pretty big fleet of stock cars.
And PRR and B&O...
And Seaboard ...

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: livestock shipments

Bruce Smith
 

On Dec 6, 2010, at 1:19 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Railroads that
followed that practice included the Santa Fe, Great Northern, Union
Pacific, Chicago & Northwestern, Rio Grande, Rock Island, New York
Central, Grand Trunk Western, Western Pacific, and doubtless a bunch
of others that don't come immediately to mind.
You can add both SP and T&NO, which had different approaches but
which both did such conversions. And between them, they owned a pretty
big fleet of stock cars.
And PRR and B&O...

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: livestock shipments

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
A plausible speculation, Doug, with one exception: by the 1950s, the tax laws no longer made it advantageous to rebuild older cars rather than buying new ones.
Richard is entirely right. It was in late 1948 that the IRS changed considerably the regulations about rebuilt cars, no longer allowing the cost of rebuilding them to be "expensed" against income. A number of previously active rebuilders, such as PFE, paid a big back tax bill and immediately stopped rebuilding altogether.

However, the practice of replacing oder, worn out livestock cars with cars converted from obsolete box cars was almost universal in the railroad industry after World War II . . . Railroads that followed that practice included the Santa Fe, Great Northern, Union Pacific, Chicago & Northwestern, Rio Grande, Rock Island, New York Central, Grand Trunk Western, Western Pacific, and doubtless a bunch of others that don't come immediately to mind.
You can add both SP and T&NO, which had different approaches but which both did such conversions. And between them, they owned a pretty big fleet of stock cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: livestock shipments

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 6, 2010, at 6:05 AM, Douglas Harding wrote:

Tom, let me speculate: the CGW saw potential loads if they could
provide
cars. Their stockcars dated from the teens or 20's and were worn
out or
rotting away. The CGW had surplus single sheathed wood boxcars as they
upgraded to steel boxcars. Tax laws made it affordable to convert the
surplus boxcars into needed stockcars.
A plausible speculation, Doug, with one exception: by the 1950s, the
tax laws no longer made it advantageous to rebuild older cars rather
than buying new ones. However, the practice of replacing oder, worn
out livestock cars with cars converted from obsolete box cars was
almost universal in the railroad industry after World War II, and
widespread even in the 1930s. Hardly any new stock cars were built;
older box cars had ample capacity, both in weight and cubic feet, to
meet the need for stock cars and were easy and economical to
convert. Railroads that followed that practice included the Santa
Fe, Great Northern, Union Pacific, Chicago & Northwestern, Rio
Grande, Rock Island, New York Central, Grand Trunk Western, Western
Pacific, and doubtless a bunch of others that don't come immediately
to mind.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: livestock shipments

dennyanspach <danspach@...>
 

Doug Harding's report is invaluable, and it surely caused a lot of recall about my own family's experiences with cattle shipping from Ida Grove, IA, on the CNW's Carroll - Onawa-Sioux City line, the route of the Sioux City section of the CORN KING LIMITED.

Doug mentioned cattle shipped from Valentine, NE. These were grass fed cattle purchased for fattening on grain in Iowa before being shipped off to market. My maternal grandfather was an Iowa cattleman, and he traveled often to Valentine to buy cattle to his own account in the teens through the '30s. He dealt with one Valentine ranch owner that he liked a great deal, and the family always thought his visits there were as much social as they were about business.

Drover's cabooses: My father, and most of my uncles had a lot of stories to tell of their trips in CNW cabooses accompanying cattle being shipped to the Chicago Union Stockyards. They would have gone through Belle Plaine. Universally, they hated (hated!) those trips for their discomfort, length, and (notably) for the bad treatment they received from the train crews- a distinct off note that is at odds with usual railroad mythology. As Doug also notes, it seems that most trips were made in ordinary cabooses with some crude accommodation made for "passengers".

Commission Houses: Prior to the reforms brought about by the Grange Acts (1911?), cattle shipped to markets principally Chicago, were subject to the buying whims of the meat packer's agents at the stockyards, which could without penalty underpay for livestock for just about any reason with impunity. The cattle were delivered there in a one way trip, and there was no place else for them to go except into the packing house at whatever terms were offered. This prompted the formation of commission houses, the first and most prominent was the cooperative Corn Belt Meat Producers' Association of Des Moines, founded by my grandfather (above) as President, and Henry Wallace (father of FDR's future Vice President of the same name) as Vice President. On behalf of the members of the association, the association employed agents at the Union stockyards that would negotiate the best prices for arriving cattle shipped by the members. They were paid on some sort of "commission" per animal on the hoof (and probably also by weight), thus the name.

In an elegant oral memoire related to me by an elderly cousin, "Shipping Fat Cattle to Market", he talked about the horse-drawn rack of straw for bedding in the stock car that accompanied the cattle as they were driven the miles down the country roads and through town to the railhead - a story slightly at odds with Doug's narrative.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Milwaukee Road Ribside car question.

sctry
 

Actually, the Milwaukee double panel roofs did not have seam caps. The up turned edges of each panel were welded together. The roof panels were galvanized and possibly allowed to weather naturally for short time before painting. Some builders photos of new 39/40 built cars show what appears to be an unpainted galvanized roof while other photos of "new" cars appear to be painted - go figure.

John Greedy

Scott, this was a welded roof with two narrow rectangular panels
between each seam cap. And the photos I have of new or nearly new
cars all show the roofs as having been painted.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: USRA Ratchet Hand Brake

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Jerry,
You touched on a problem. Manufacturers have not yet caught up with our new found sophistication about hand brakes.

I have identified over 300 different hand brake models.

Some are different mechanisms in the same or very similar (close enough for our purposes) housing. Think Ajax.

Some can be considered "experimental" and were not widely used.

Still others have been tucked away inside the vestibules of passenger cars and don't really count for our freight car modeling purposes anyway.

Gene Green


Re: Hunter Packing Company (Also)

S hed <shed999@...>
 

Of course I forgot to mention that their is a picture of one of the HPAX cars in Richard Hendrickson's and Edward Kaminski's Billboard Refrigerator Car book. On page 170 is HPAX 975 which is a reefer rebuilt from a stock car and a built date of Feb 1932. Pretty unique looking and very cool looking car.

- Steve Hedlund, Everett, WA

To: stmfc@...
From: shed999@...
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:26:47 -0800
Subject: RE: [STMFC] RE: Hunter Packing Company


In my January 1945 ORER are the following cars for Hunter Packing (HPAX):

Series: 1000 to 1060
Type: Refrigerator
IL: 33' 0" (between ice tanks, bulkheads in place)
IW: 8' 3"
IH: 6' 11"
OL: 42' 0"
OW: 9' 10" (width at eaves)
OW: 10' 4" (extreme width)
OH (height from rail): 10' 11" (to extreme width)
OH (height from rail): 12' 0" (to eaves)
OH (height from rail): 13' 0" (to top of running board)
OH (height from rail): 13' 8" (to extreme height)
Side Doors Width: 4' 0"
Side Doors Height: 6' 0"
Capacity of Ice Tanks: 9,000 LB (total capacity for crushed ice)
Capacity of Ice Tanks: 220 cubic feet
Capacity of Car: 1,900 cubic feet (between ice boxes, bulkheads in place)
Capacity of Car: 80,000 LB
Number of Cars: 60

In my January 1940 ORER, Hunter Packing cars are listed in the 900 to 1049 series, no quantity listed. And the dimensions of these cars do not match the dimensions of the cars listed in the January 1945 ORER. They are 37' long cars compared to the later 42' long cars.
In my July 1950 ORER, Hunter Packing cars are listed in the 1000 to 1099 series, 84 total cars.
In my January 1955 ORER, Hunter Packing is not listed.



To: STMFC@...
From: SSEXTON9@...
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 20:03:53 -0500
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Hunter Packing Company






If anyone has a 1943, 1944 or 1945 ORER, could you provide the following
measurements as they are listed for the reefers in the Mather series that
includes cars HPAX-1056 and HPAX-1065?

External length, internal length, internal width, internal height, door
height and width, cubic feet capacity, number of cars in the series

Thanks much

Larry Sexton











------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Hunter Packing Company

S hed <shed999@...>
 

In my January 1945 ORER are the following cars for Hunter Packing (HPAX):

Series: 1000 to 1060
Type: Refrigerator
IL: 33' 0" (between ice tanks, bulkheads in place)
IW: 8' 3"
IH: 6' 11"
OL: 42' 0"
OW: 9' 10" (width at eaves)
OW: 10' 4" (extreme width)
OH (height from rail): 10' 11" (to extreme width)
OH (height from rail): 12' 0" (to eaves)
OH (height from rail): 13' 0" (to top of running board)
OH (height from rail): 13' 8" (to extreme height)
Side Doors Width: 4' 0"
Side Doors Height: 6' 0"
Capacity of Ice Tanks: 9,000 LB (total capacity for crushed ice)
Capacity of Ice Tanks: 220 cubic feet
Capacity of Car: 1,900 cubic feet (between ice boxes, bulkheads in place)
Capacity of Car: 80,000 LB
Number of Cars: 60

In my January 1940 ORER, Hunter Packing cars are listed in the 900 to 1049 series, no quantity listed. And the dimensions of these cars do not match the dimensions of the cars listed in the January 1945 ORER. They are 37' long cars compared to the later 42' long cars.
In my July 1950 ORER, Hunter Packing cars are listed in the 1000 to 1099 series, 84 total cars.
In my January 1955 ORER, Hunter Packing is not listed.



To: STMFC@...
From: SSEXTON9@...
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 20:03:53 -0500
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Hunter Packing Company






If anyone has a 1943, 1944 or 1945 ORER, could you provide the following
measurements as they are listed for the reefers in the Mather series that
includes cars HPAX-1056 and HPAX-1065?

External length, internal length, internal width, internal height, door
height and width, cubic feet capacity, number of cars in the series

Thanks much

Larry Sexton







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: USRA Ratchet Hand Brake

jerryglow2
 

I beleve Martin's instructions to build the StlB&M gondola from his MP kit and mini-kit, that it had a Perfection handbrake but not much information was available at the time I built mine <http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/modeling/StLBM_gon.html> so I used the Tichy one.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

Bob,
In the case of USRA composite, drop-bottom gondolas the hand brake applied was the "Perfection" Brake Ratchett from Railway Devices Co., St. Louis.

You can find illustrations of this brake in the 1919 Car Builders' Cyclopedia on Railway Devices advertising page 1250 and in a decent photo of the end of a gondola on page 1246.

Gene Green


Re: livestock shipments

Douglas Harding
 

Tom, let me speculate: the CGW saw potential loads if they could provide
cars. Their stockcars dated from the teens or 20's and were worn out or
rotting away. The CGW had surplus single sheathed wood boxcars as they
upgraded to steel boxcars. Tax laws made it affordable to convert the
surplus boxcars into needed stockcars.



The CGW was not the only railroad to do this. The GN did it with their USRA
boxcars, which Accurail has produced in HO.



And lots of young cattle was moved from western grass lands (any dry lands
west of the Mississippi) to the feedlots of the Midwest where they were
fattened up on corn. Today we call this "value added" products



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: IMCX 4013

rwitt_2000
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

I know the photo date is late, but the photographer notes the
original built date as 10-1931, so I was wondering if this
double sheathed car (perhaps originally an ice reefer) rang
any bells as to its origin? With those 4/4 ends it may also
have started life as a box car, although not one that I recognize.

http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=24317
Tim,

I am fairly certain this is a ex-URTX reefer similar to this one that
still has hinged doors.

http://tinyurl.com/3a33n72

These have been discussed in the past on the list including the various
re-buildings including steel ends, roofs and lastly sliding doors as
shown in the photo. Some had the ice bunkers removed to create "RB"
reefers suitable for loads of beer, canned goods, etc. common in
Wisconsin. The original built date seems correct.

There are many examples at the Illinois Railway Museum. Here is a photo
of a fully restored URTX "RB". There are links to other examples through
this web site.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2238885

Regards,

Bob Witt

99581 - 99600 of 194635