Date   

Re: Unusual routings?

Tim O'Connor
 

Al

Normally, a car may be routed to ANY home district, or to any
immediately ADJACENT district to a home district, without any
requirement to use the owner's rails in any part of the route.

So in the case of Pennsylvania, it's in a district that is NOT
adjacent to any Santa Fe home district. However, if the Santa Fe
is involved in the route in ANY part, then the car could be sent
to any destination without restriction. Of course, this depends
on whether the Santa Fe has signed on to the TARIFF for that
cargo and its origin and destination. Many railroads signed up
for circuitous routes (e.g. Peoria-->Kansas City-->St Louis) to
pick up additional traffic where they already ran regularly
scheduled freight trains. (The logic was that the marginal cost
of another loaded car in a train is a tiny fraction of the total
cost of operating the train.) Shippers would often split traffic
over multiple routes, probably based on whose agent bought them
the nicest dinner most recently at a fancy restaurant. (My brother
in law was a pension fund manager and told me he never had to buy
a meal for himself when he went to NYC. Same idea.)

Tim O'Connor

At 12/10/2010 01:43 PM Friday, you wrote:
Al Brown wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the car-service rules. The following is a
question. Using an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota as an example:
consignment to Illinois, where the Santa Fe goes, would be within
the rules; but consignment *through* Illinois to somewhere beyond,
e.g. Pennsylvania, wouldn't?
You're right that there's a provision to load through and
beyond an owner's home district, but that's on the basis that it is
routed partly via owner's rails. The Santa Fe in Illinois is not
oriented in a direction to help a car moving eastward from Minnesota
to Pennsylvania, except by circuitous routing. At least that's my
understanding of the rules.

Tony Thompson


Re: Unsual routings?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

I relish horsemeat :-) Ah... the big Ah... IF the route in ANY PART
were to touch Santa Fe rails, then there is NO RESTRICTION on the
destination.

So for example, a load from Minnesota might be routed to Fort Madison
Iowa to Santa Fe rails first... and from there to New York. Without the
exact route we can't say whether the car was in violation or not.
But TIm, we do know the routing--all railroads were listed--and ATSF is not among them. Gonna keep beating that horse?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: New ART Steel Reefer Runs Now Available

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Typically orange tends to fade toward yellow. If the cars were originally pale orange, with time I'd expect them to look more and more yellow. It's always good to know the NEW color of a car, but for most of us, MORE important to know how it looked after some time in service. Old (preserved) PFE cars, to use one example, often look yellowish if in original but aged paint.
The question of "trusting" commercial model colors is obviously complex. For many years, model mfgrs. liked to make the WP cars in the PFE fleet yellow, who knows why. Since those cars were changed to orange at the same time as the rest of the PFE car fleet (starting in 1929), this is entirely wrong for models representing later years. Gradually this had been corrected.
The issue of whether NP and ART cars were yellow or not (vs. orange) in the 1950s has come up before and never entirely answered IIRC.
As Tim O'C commented, yellow evidently looks different to different people. When the SP's Daylight-painted 4-8-4 engines were new, their nickname among employees was "yellow bellies," though the color was Daylight Orange.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Unsual routings?

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard

I relish horsemeat :-) Ah... the big Ah... IF the route in ANY PART
were to touch Santa Fe rails, then there is NO RESTRICTION on the
destination.

So for example, a load from Minnesota might be routed to Fort Madison
Iowa to Santa Fe rails first... and from there to New York. Without the
exact route we can't say whether the car was in violation or not.

Tim O'Connor

Tony is doubtless correct that these cars were captured by the local
carrier and loaded for destinations in the east in violation of the
car service rules....
Richard Hendrickson
Richard, an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota and consigned to anywhere
in Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee,
Mississippi,
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Arkansas --
or to
ANY STATE serviced directly by the Santa Fe -- could be in 100%
compliance
with AAR Car Service Rules as spelled out explicity in every ORER.
(Pages
748-754 of the January 1953 ORER.)
Tim, at the risk of flogging a dead horse, those cars weren't
consigned to any of the places you list. They were consigned to New
York. And that's definitely a violation of the car service rules as
spelled out explicitly, etc.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: New ART Steel Reefer Runs Now Available

Tim O'Connor
 

If you look at the collection of ART photos in the "Refrigerator Car
Color Guide" every one of them appears to be pale orange or darker except
for ONE -- but when I look at the sky in that photo (page 16) I realize the
photo has shifted badly and was not color-corrected. A couple of photos of
dark orange cars also appear to be color shifted (at least one looks like
an Ektachrome)

Tim O'Connor

Prior to the 1964 color change to orange with the N&W's acquisition the
Wabash, virtually all A.R.T. reefers were painted with yellow sides. Some
do appear to shift towards orange in color photos or as they age & weather.
As Tim mentions, a small class of insulated boxcars assigned to the Wabash
were painted a dark blue. This was short lived, just about a six month
period.

An A.R.T. book is in the works with Tony. Hopefully it will follow the MDT
book.

Gene Semon


Re: reefer yellow (was New ART Steel Reefer Runs Now Available)

Tim O'Connor
 

Gene

"Yellow" is a slippery term. For example, Maine Central's "Harvest Yellow"
is an almost exact match for SFRD reefer orange. I have too many color shots
of brand new or freshly painted ART reefers in light orange in the 1950's
to call it anything else but light orange. The Northern Pacific was another
railroad that for many years was misrepresented by vendors as having yellow
steel reefers. I have some R-40-23's from Evergreen Roundhouse (usually a very
reliable custom painter) in an almost "banana yellow" color, instead of the
proper pale orange. (Intermountain actually did NP reefer colors correctly.)
But... some NP reefers FADED to a definite pale yellow color! So paint fading
can really lead us astray.

Tim O'Connor

Gentlemen,

Prior to the 1964 color change to orange with the N&W's acquisition the
Wabash, virtually all A.R.T. reefers were painted with yellow sides. Some
do appear to shift towards orange in color photos or as they age & weather.
As Tim mentions, a small class of insulated boxcars assigned to the Wabash
were painted a dark blue. This was short lived, just about a six month
period.

An A.R.T. book is in the works with Tony. Hopefully it will follow the MDT
book.

Gene Semon


Re: Multiple Micro Sol Applications

Aley, Jeff A
 

Jim,

With regard to your comments about "fine motor control":
I find it is handy to have a spare block of wood, or a suitably-sized plastic box on which to rest the heel of my hand.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:26 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Multiple Micro Sol Applications

All of this is about your fine motor control - I find
that if I "land" some part of my hand to the model first
that I have much better fine motor control. I use the
heel of my hand if possible (similar to using a computer
mouse) but often find I have to use my little finger or
something like that - and have to use parts of the model
such as the corners or stirrup steps for a "grounding
point".
- Jim


Decal setting solutions

Schuyler Larrabee
 

OK, now "Decal-set" was Champ's solution, was it not?

And "Solva-set," Walthers.

Microscale has a suite of solutions, IIRC.

What about those of us who still have a bunch (aka, a "hoard") of Accucals?
Since Bishop's out of business, who has had what luck with using anything
other than Accu-set? I believe it's no longer available.

SGL





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Re: Unusual routings?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Brown wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the car-service rules. The following is a question. Using an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota as an example: consignment to Illinois, where the Santa Fe goes, would be within the rules; but consignment *through* Illinois to somewhere beyond, e.g. Pennsylvania, wouldn't?
You're right that there's a provision to load through and beyond an owner's home district, but that's on the basis that it is routed partly via owner's rails. The Santa Fe in Illinois is not oriented in a direction to help a car moving eastward from Minnesota to Pennsylvania, except by circuitous routing. At least that's my understanding of the rules.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: New ART Steel Reefer Runs Now Available

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gene Semon wrote:
An A.R.T. book is in the works with Tony. Hopefully it will follow the MDT book.
Yes, the manuscript and photos have been submitted to us. We like the book and do plan to push it forward, but it won't be directly following the MDT book, which is close to final.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Unsual routings?

al_brown03
 

I'm not sure I understand the car-service rules. The following is a question. Using an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota as an example: consignment to Illinois, where the Santa Fe goes, would be within the rules; but consignment *through* Illinois to somewhere beyond, e.g. Pennsylvania, wouldn't?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Dec 9, 2010, at 10:10 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Tony is doubtless correct that these cars were captured by the local
carrier and loaded for destinations in the east in violation of the
car service rules....
Richard Hendrickson
Richard, an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota and consigned to anywhere
in Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee,
Mississippi,
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Arkansas --
or to
ANY STATE serviced directly by the Santa Fe -- could be in 100%
compliance
with AAR Car Service Rules as spelled out explicity in every ORER.
(Pages
748-754 of the January 1953 ORER.)
Tim, at the risk of flogging a dead horse, those cars weren't
consigned to any of the places you list. They were consigned to New
York. And that's definitely a violation of the car service rules as
spelled out explicitly, etc.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Applying Decals

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 10, 2010, at 7:36 AM, thiggins_rochester wrote:

I once had Champ solvent ruin decals on a F&C gon and shunned it in
favor of Micro Sol. However, I found that M-S did not work as
aggressively as I liked, leaving the decal visible, even on smooth
surface applications. I went back to the Champ stuff recently for
some Sunshine models (Rail Graphics) and it worked fine, full
strength, multiple applications. Then, I used it on an F&C wagontop
box car. It worked great.
This makes me wonder about shelf life. I didn't mark the purchase
date on either of these solvents, but they're years old. Has anyone
heard of a shelf life for decal solvents?
Tony, decal solvents don't have a "shelf life," as far as I know, but
over time the water in them will evaporate so that they become
stronger. The solution is simple; just add a small amount of
distilled water to return them to their original strength.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Unsual routings?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 9, 2010, at 10:10 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Tony is doubtless correct that these cars were captured by the local
carrier and loaded for destinations in the east in violation of the
car service rules....
Richard Hendrickson
Richard, an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota and consigned to anywhere
in Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee,
Mississippi,
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Arkansas --
or to
ANY STATE serviced directly by the Santa Fe -- could be in 100%
compliance
with AAR Car Service Rules as spelled out explicity in every ORER.
(Pages
748-754 of the January 1953 ORER.)
Tim, at the risk of flogging a dead horse, those cars weren't
consigned to any of the places you list. They were consigned to New
York. And that's definitely a violation of the car service rules as
spelled out explicitly, etc.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Loads...link to AMB; sorry! (UNCLASSIFIED)

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Eldon: What is the structural beam load made from?

KL


Re: New ART Steel Reefer Runs Now Available

mopac1 <mopac1@...>
 

Gentlemen,



Prior to the 1964 color change to orange with the N&W's acquisition the
Wabash, virtually all A.R.T. reefers were painted with yellow sides. Some
do appear to shift towards orange in color photos or as they age & weather.
As Tim mentions, a small class of insulated boxcars assigned to the Wabash
were painted a dark blue. This was short lived, just about a six month
period.



An A.R.T. book is in the works with Tony. Hopefully it will follow the MDT
book.



Gene Semon



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 11:51 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New ART Steel Reefer Runs Now Available



Scott

But then, there's that famous color photo of hundreds of ART reefers
in Grand Junction Colorado in the late 1950's and NOT ONE yellow ART
reefer can be seen. Every one of the cars has a Wabash flag on it.

However, I have seen other, later color photos of ART RBL's that do
appear to be more on the yellow side -- and yet some photos do show
a definite light orange color, and some even show DARK BLUE paint.
Again, these are all Wabash era cars. Personally I'm convinced that
ART was painting everything a light orange color in the 1950's, and
some RBL's may have gotten a lighter color, almost yellow, later.

I agree they went to a deeper orange color when N&W took over.

Maybe after Roger Hinman finishes the MDT book and Bill Welch the
FGE book, someone with the knowledge will write the definitive book
on ART! :-)

Tim O'Connor


And looking at the '60 car, it's got yellow sides, and the photo shows
orange sides.
I think that's fine (if I follow what you're saying)-- 1960 they were still
yellow; after N&W logo replaced Wabash in 1964, orange came in.
Scott Pitzer


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Re: Applying Decals

Tony Higgins
 

I once had Champ solvent ruin decals on a F&C gon and shunned it in favor of Micro Sol. However, I found that M-S did not work as aggressively as I liked, leaving the decal visible, even on smooth surface applications. I went back to the Champ stuff recently for some Sunshine models (Rail Graphics) and it worked fine, full strength, multiple applications. Then, I used it on an F&C wagontop box car. It worked great.
This makes me wonder about shelf life. I didn't mark the purchase date on either of these solvents, but they're years old. Has anyone heard of a shelf life for decal solvents?

Tony Higgins
pittsford, NY

--- In STMFC@..., "marcusphil" <marcusphil@...> wrote:

I prefer Solvaset to Micro Sol, but both work about the same.
What does make a big difference is the decal film. Over their
lifetime Champ and Walthers used different decal films. Today
there are many different products on the market. You have to
experiment to see what works best with the decal you are using.
It is a lot of fun when you are mixing decal suppliers on the
same car. I have also found that wood sheathed cars require different
techniques than steel cars.

Phil Marcus
Modeling 1953 in "O" gage


Re: Loads...link to AMB; sorry! (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: FOUO

Guys;

Hey, I didn't included it, but:


http://www.rgspemkt.com/215-P1.html

and

http://www.rgspemkt.com/206


Sorry!

Elden Gatwood


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: FOUO


Iron Modeler

Clark Propst
 

"Sounds like a modeling challenge ala Iron Chef" Ben Hom

Ben and I talked about having an "Iron Modeler" competition before.

That AHM DD DS model would be a good one.

"You have 8 hours to make this 'thing' into something prototypical...sort of...

Clark Propst


Re: New ART Steel Reefer Runs Now Available

bpe <behni@...>
 

What I'm talking about is this car: http://tinyurl.com/28qfell

If you look at the two photos of models, they have obvious yellow side, yet the prototype photo is obviously orange sides. Seems to me he should have either put a photo of the yellow side car up, or had the cars painted orange.

I'm a LOT less inclined to buy if it looks fishy, especially given Intermountain's well-known color issues.

Brian Ehni

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Scott

But then, there's that famous color photo of hundreds of ART reefers
in Grand Junction Colorado in the late 1950's and NOT ONE yellow ART
reefer can be seen. Every one of the cars has a Wabash flag on it.

However, I have seen other, later color photos of ART RBL's that do
appear to be more on the yellow side -- and yet some photos do show
a definite light orange color, and some even show DARK BLUE paint.
Again, these are all Wabash era cars. Personally I'm convinced that
ART was painting everything a light orange color in the 1950's, and
some RBL's may have gotten a lighter color, almost yellow, later.

I agree they went to a deeper orange color when N&W took over.

Maybe after Roger Hinman finishes the MDT book and Bill Welch the
FGE book, someone with the knowledge will write the definitive book
on ART! :-)

Tim O'Connor


And looking at the '60 car, it's got yellow sides, and the photo shows
orange sides.
I think that's fine (if I follow what you're saying)-- 1960 they were still yellow; after N&W logo replaced Wabash in 1964, orange came in.
Scott Pitzer


Re: New ART Steel Reefer Runs Now Available

Gary Roe
 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor

Maybe after Roger Hinman finishes the MDT book and Bill Welch the
FGE book, someone with the knowledge will write the definitive book
on ART! :-)



Tim,

It's not me; but someone is.

gary roe
quincy, illinois

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