Date   

Re: six-panels per side on 40-foot box cars

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 17, 2010, at 3:47 PM, john66h wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Baker <bakert@...> wrote:
> I have seen photos showing box cars having six panels on each side
of the door and having a continuous side below the floor rather than
the more ubiquitous tabs.
> MY QUESTION is whether somewhere someone has written about these
cars or created a list describing their roofs and side whether tabbed
or continuous.
Tom,
Check out the list Ed Hawkins created, which is available on the
Steam Era Freightcars web site: www.steamfreightcars.com
The address of the pdf list is
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/postwaraarpdf.html
Hope this helps,
-John Hile
Tom and John,
In addition to the roster John cited of 40' 10'-6" IH box cars having
4-4 Improved Dreadnaught Ends, I have compiled data for cars having
R+3-4 Improved Dreadnaught Ends built from 1948 to 1954. Some of these
cars had 12-panel riveted or welded sides. More were welded than
riveted during this time period. The 12-panel welded cars came with a
variety of door openings (6', 7', and 8').

Roads in this group having riveted sides included GN 20500-21499 (8-52)
and GN 21450-21939 (10-53), all of which had 6' door openings. The
latter series had straight side sills. I believe that 10 additional
cars, 21940-21949, were the same as 21450-21939 but with
Compartmentizers and 8' door openings. I have not been able to
determine with certainty if these 10 cars had riveted or welded side
panels.

The numerous cars in this group with 12-panel welded sides include the
following:
AA 1000-1099, 2-51
ACL 21630-23429, 5-49
C&EI 65000-65299, 2-51
C&EI 65300-65499, 3-52
C&EI 66200-66299, 5-52
C&WC 8500-8599, 6-49
CNJ 20500-20999, 4-53
Erie 90500-91199, 4-49
GM&O 26000-26299, 1-49
GTW 515500-515999, 9-49
NJI&I 100-199, 1-50
PRR 602000-603499, 12-50 (X43A)
SERX 994-1043, 5-49 (Linde Tank Cars with small end doors and roof
hatches)
WM 4201-4450, 9-53

All of the above cars were built by AC&F except the C&EI cars that were
built by the railroad. The C&EI cars had straight side sills, and a few
were renumbered for special service during the 1950s. Also, all of the
above cars came with diagonal panel roofs except the GM&O series, which
had Murphy raised panel roofs.

If you're interested in 40' box cars built in 1955-1960, another roster
of these cars are on the STMFC web site. These include cars with
12-panel welded or riveted sides for C&IM, DL&W, GN, MILW, PRR, and
RDG.

Still more ACF-built cars having 12-panel welded sides came with either
the so-called R+3-4 "Dartnot" Ends, which were Improved Dreadnaught
Ends that lacked the minor corrugations between the major corrugations
or the proprietary ACF Corrugated End with 4-4 corrugations and
"dimples" on the corners. These cars were all built from 1948 to 1953.
They had various door openings and various types of roofs including the
unique ACF Riveted Roof (as discussed in my recent article on the
Armour reefers in RP CYC Vol. 21). Roads owning cars of these
descriptions include ACL, ATSF, BCK, C&EI, CN&L, DT&I, ITC, M-K-T, RDG,
RI, and WIF. I have prepared an article about the cars having
proprietary ACF Corrugated Ends that will appear in a future RP CYC.

A number of 40' PS-1 box cars also had 12-panel welded sides (C&O, MSC,
NKP, RI). Roster available for downloading on the STMFC. Hope this
helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


War Emergency Box Cars

Andy Carlson
 


I would like to announce the availability of the just shipped runs of RTR
Intermountain War Emergency box cars in HO RTR. Roads are:
ATSF
C&NW-Superior Door
GM&O
Wabash
If anyone interested in information on pricing and purchasing, contact me
off-list, please, at <midcentury@sbcglobal.net>.


I accept MO checks and PayPal (w/ a 4% surcharge).
Again, please reply OFF-LIST!!
Thanks Mike,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

Aley, Jeff A
 

Bill,

If you come to Prototype Rails, in Cocoa Beach, FL, you'll find the clinics are a third longer: a full hour! That should be sufficient for such a trivial topic, eh? :-) :-)

Regards,

-Jeff Aley
Clinic Chairman, PR'11

P.S. While Cocoa Beach is certainly a long ways from Irvine, it is even farther from my home in Folsom (Sacramento).

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Keene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 4:35 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List

Armand and Group,

WOW! That is a lot of info and data to cram into a 45 minute long clinic.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Dec 17, 2010, at 4:25 PM, A. Premo wrote:

Although I do have a preference for Northeastern coal roads,I indicated "Eastern " to include:B&O,C&O,N&W.Clinchfield,L&N,CRP,CNJ,Pennsy,Berwind,Virginian,and others as well.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: mike brock
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List

Armand Premo writes:

I would like to have a clinic on coal traffic and related hopper fleets of
eastern coal roads Armand Premo.
I have a feeling that Armand means "Northeastern" coal roads. After all,
both C&O and N&W operated into eastern Atlantic ports.

Mike Brock

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Yahoo! Groups Links


Semet Solvay Tank Car with platform in Photo Section

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

For those that might be thinking of building an ACF 10,000 gal tank car with platform, I've uploaded a few photos of my Semet Solvay Intermountain car [ with added platform ] as shown on pg 18 of RPCyc #3. See Semet Solvay in the Photo section. I'll add a few more shots after "weathering" [ might be better described as "after use" ]. The car will be at Prototype Rails.

Mike Brock


Re: Weighing reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Clark, my understanding is that meat reefers with swinging meat were weighed
after being loaded and iced. This was because the carcasses varied so much.
The weight of the car was known, as was the amount of ice loaded into the
bunkers. When the car was weighted, subtract the amount of ice that was
loaded, and you have the weight of the load. Yes there would be some melt
and variance. But apparently this was accounted for with in the agreements.
Tony has pointed out a 100 allowance, which sounds reasonable when one
considers the total weight of a car and load.



Seems to me you told me that reefers from Deckers were taken to the scales
down at the Albert Lea tracks once loaded. Then after begin weighted were
returned to Middle yard for placement in the DMX. (for those who don't know
this is the M&StL in Mason City IA). Other meat plants had similar
arrangements, some even had their own scales



On my layout, I follow the following procedure with reefers at Decker when
we operate. Loaded reefers are taken to the scale, at the other end of the
yard, to be weighed before leaving town in the meat train. It adds an extra
move for the Decker switcher.



I will be interested in learning if something different was done.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: Weighing reefers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Lenny (not signing his whole name) wrote:
I would have to agree with Andy. The potatoes coming out of the Rutherford plant in Burlington were never weighed. Number of sacks times weight. On the rare occasion cars were iced there wasn't an allowance made for ice. Even with ice the car(s) would be will within the load limit.
Was there a standard load, so many sacks? Do you know if there was a weight agreement, or a tariff category (for a carload of potatoes)?

Tony Thompson
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937;
e-mail: thompson@signaturepress.com


Weighing reefers

Walter
 

Clark,

I would have to agree with Andy. The potatoes coming out of the Rutherford plant in Burlington
were never weighed. Number of sacks times weight. On the rare occasion cars were iced there wasn't
an allowance made for ice. Even with ice the car(s) would be will within the load limit.

Lenny


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Armand and Group,

WOW! That is a lot of info and data to cram into a 45 minute long clinic.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Dec 17, 2010, at 4:25 PM, A. Premo wrote:

Although I do have a preference for Northeastern coal roads,I indicated "Eastern " to include:B&O,C&O,N&W.Clinchfield,L&N,CRP,CNJ,Pennsy,Berwind,Virginian,and others as well.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: mike brock
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List

Armand Premo writes:

I would like to have a clinic on coal traffic and related hopper fleets of
eastern coal roads Armand Premo.
I have a feeling that Armand means "Northeastern" coal roads. After all,
both C&O and N&W operated into eastern Atlantic ports.

Mike Brock

----------------------------------------------------------

Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2804 - Release Date: 04/11/10 06:32:00
__________________________________________________________
Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4d0c005cdec477d3b0fst01duc

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

A. Premo <armprem2@...>
 

Although I do have a preference for Northeastern coal roads,I indicated "Eastern " to include:B&O,C&O,N&W.Clinchfield,L&N,CRP,CNJ,Pennsy,Berwind,Virginian,and others as well.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: mike brock
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List



Armand Premo writes:

>I would like to have a clinic on coal traffic and related hopper fleets of
>eastern coal roads Armand Premo.

I have a feeling that Armand means "Northeastern" coal roads. After all,
both C&O and N&W operated into eastern Atlantic ports.

Mike Brock






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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2804 - Release Date: 04/11/10 06:32:00
____________________________________________________________
Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4d0c005cdec477d3b0fst01duc


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

Aley, Jeff A
 

Armand,

That sounds pretty interesting. We'll keep that in mind for Prototype Rails 2012.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of A. Premo
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 2:12 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List



I would like to have a clinic on coal traffic and related hopper fleets of eastern coal roads Armand Premo.
----- Original Message -----
From: Aley, Jeff A
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 4:40 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List

Bill,

Perhaps there will be something to be learned from Richard Hendrickson's clinic, "The North American Freight Car Fleet in the 1950's". He is presenting it at Prototype Rails 2011, in Cocoa Beach. I notice that it fortunately does not conflict with "The First Mechanical Reefers: FGE / WFE / BRE - 1948-57", which STMFC'ers will want to attend.

Regards,

-Jeff Aley
Clinic Chairman, Prototype Rails 2011
www.prototyperails.com<http://www.prototyperails.com>

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 11:44 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List

I was finishing reading the RP CYC #21 article on the NYC/Reading/
DL&W/NB/HCRR steel cars and realized how little I know about the
freight car fleets, especially the boxcar fleets, of RR's like the
Erie, Reading, CNJ, DL&W, New Haven, and the other northeastern RR's
that were NOT the PRR, NYC, B&O.

Therefore my request/challenge is for someone to pull together such a
presentation to be presented sometime in 2012.

Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com<mailto:fgexbill%40tampabay.rr.com><mailto:fgexbill%40tampabay.rr.com>





----------------------------------------------------------

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__________________________________________________________
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Re: Weighing reefers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Clark Propst wrote:
I model a packing plant. I have weigh tickets for lard and hides. I was told that the reefers were weighed too. A friend recently retired from a career on the railroad and joined our ops group. After working the 'Decker job' a few times he said the other night "Something to ponder. What'd the car weigh after the ice melted?" Or something like that. Of course, they had brine tanks, but a valid question I think.
My question is: I always assumed they knew how much the beef/pork, parts/cans weighed before they put them in the car. Simple math would tell them the weight of the load? Or is it true they had to weigh the reefers?
I again assume this would pertain to produce reefers also?
If the cargo is something like canned meat, where the weight of a carton is always the same, the shipper would have a "weight agreement" with their regional Weighing and Inspection Bureau (WIB). Under such an agreement, the shipper counts the cartons and states the weight, and has a waybill stamp with the WIB agreement number on it. But cut meat or other products which were variable, would require weighing. Large shippers could have their own scale, again certified with the WIB, but otherwise the railroad would weigh the car after loading.
The railroad always had the right to weigh a car to check on the accuracy of a waybill weight, regardless of certified scales or weight agreements.
The question of weight of ice is interesting. Light weights of reefers were, by definition, with the ice bunkers dry and empty. A full ice bunker had a reasonably predictable weight, but obviously couldn't be exact. However, a PFE person I interviewed said it would normally be estimated within 100 pounds by an experienced inspector. It's certainly true that when cars were re-iced, a foreman eyeballed the space to be filled atop the existing ice, and estimated the amount of ice that would be needed, to the nearest 100 pounds, and the shipper was then billed for that much ice.
It's possible for standardized cargos, such as oranges which in the wooden crate days were always loaded 486 crates per 40-foot car, to define a tariff category of a carload of oranges, and bill at a standard rate, regardless of exact weight. But I don't know that this was done for PHP.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

water.kresse@...
 

You technically missed the Virginian (pre-N&W)  . . . . which was formed by a bunch Northeastern coal brokers looking for cheaper coal.



Where would there be a logical Freight Car format for the C&O, Clinchfield, L&N, N&W and Virginian equipment and operations to be discussed "together"?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "mike brock" <brockm@brevard.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 5:32:53 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List

Armand Premo writes:

I would like to have a clinic on coal traffic and related hopper fleets of
eastern coal roads Armand Premo.
I have a feeling that Armand means "Northeastern" coal roads. After all,
both C&O and N&W operated into eastern Atlantic ports.

Mike Brock



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: six-panels per side on 40-foot box cars

Steve Haas
 

Tom Baker inquires:

"I have seen photos showing box cars having six panels on each side of the
door and having a continuous side below the floor rather than the more
ubiquitous tabs."

GN built a series of 10' 6" height cars with the "continuous side" in their
St. Cloud Shops 1n 1953.

"I have also seen photos of box cars having six panels on each side of the
door and having the customary tabs. Many of these cars seem to have been
purchased by the SP and the ATSF."

Between 48 and 52 GN built several series of 12 panel cars with the tabbed
side sill.

The GN cars have been featured in the model press on several occasions,
including Mainline Modeler the fall of 85 or so, a couple or additional
articles in the late 90's early 00's, again in MM, and an article by Duane
Buck in RMJ - October 98. My apologies for not being more specific on the
dates, as most of the articles are packed away in storage at the moment.

Published drawings of these cars are pretty good, but one needs to be aware
of the differences between the 10' cars and the 10' 6" cars, in addition to
the various accessories used in each series. In a couple of cases, doors
come to mind, it is necessary to acquire the after market doors distributed
by Andy Carlson (I've forgotten the name of the individual/company that
provides them - sorry).

Earl Tuson's document mentioned elsewhere in this thread does a very good
job of documenting the GN 12 Panels.

Earl's list also included the group of 500 SP&S cars built by GN in the St.
Cloud shops.

Ed Hawkins' list, also referenced in this thread, doesn't include any of the
GN/SP&S cars as that list is sub-titled 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught ends; the
GN's 12 panels were all variations on the 4-3 as Earl has noted.

HTH,

Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA













I think most of them had the rectangular paneled roof, but some may have had
the roof with diagonal panels.

MY QUESTION is whether somewhere someone has written about these cars or
created a list describing their roofs and side whether tabbed or continuous.

I would appreciate any help anyone out there might be able to offer.

Tom







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Armand Premo writes:

I would like to have a clinic on coal traffic and related hopper fleets of eastern coal roads Armand Premo.
I have a feeling that Armand means "Northeastern" coal roads. After all, both C&O and N&W operated into eastern Atlantic ports.

Mike Brock


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

Clark Propst
 

I've started on M&StL Freight cars YOU should model.
I thought it'd be just on box cars, but I was surprised at how their coal hoppers got around.
Clark Propst


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "A. Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:
I would like to have a clinic on coal traffic and related hopper fleets of eastern coal roads Armand Premo.
I'd like to get a hand out from that.

The rails progress book was excellent for IDing the fleets but the earliest listing was 1952.

Most NE railroads had atleast half a dozen different types of hoppers just after WWII.

I've seen photos of many different foreign road hoppers on the Erie. The Kline/Cullota book gives a good idea of how scrambled the anthracite region hoppers were.

Ed


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill, I agree -- except that it could be divided into "Anthracite"
railroads (ERIE/READING/CNJ/DL&W/LV/D&H/L&NE/NYS&W) and "New England"
railroads (NYNH&H/B&M/MEC/BAR/RUTLAND/CV). There's a LOT of material
to cover there!

I like to remind people that at one point in history, the most highly
valued corporation in the entire world was the Reading Company! So it
deserves more than a passing glance. :-)

Tim O'Connor

At 12/17/2010 02:44 PM Friday, you wrote:
I was finishing reading the RP CYC #21 article on the NYC/Reading/
DL&W/NB/HCRR steel cars and realized how little I know about the
freight car fleets, especially the boxcar fleets, of RR's like the
Erie, Reading, CNJ, DL&W, New Haven, and the other northeastern RR's
that were NOT the PRR, NYC, B&O.

Therefore my request/challenge is for someone to pull together such a
presentation to be presented sometime in 2012.

Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com


DL&W freight car expert

ed_mines
 

Mike Del Vecchio


Re: RPM Seminar Wish List

A. Premo <armprem2@...>
 

I would like to have a clinic on coal traffic and related hopper fleets of eastern coal roads Armand Premo.

----- Original Message -----
From: Aley, Jeff A
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 4:40 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List



Bill,

Perhaps there will be something to be learned from Richard Hendrickson's clinic, "The North American Freight Car Fleet in the 1950's". He is presenting it at Prototype Rails 2011, in Cocoa Beach. I notice that it fortunately does not conflict with "The First Mechanical Reefers: FGE / WFE / BRE - 1948-57", which STMFC'ers will want to attend.

Regards,

-Jeff Aley
Clinic Chairman, Prototype Rails 2011
www.prototyperails.com<http://www.prototyperails.com>

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 11:44 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] RPM Seminar Wish List

I was finishing reading the RP CYC #21 article on the NYC/Reading/
DL&W/NB/HCRR steel cars and realized how little I know about the
freight car fleets, especially the boxcar fleets, of RR's like the
Erie, Reading, CNJ, DL&W, New Haven, and the other northeastern RR's
that were NOT the PRR, NYC, B&O.

Therefore my request/challenge is for someone to pull together such a
presentation to be presented sometime in 2012.

Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com<mailto:fgexbill%40tampabay.rr.com>










------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2804 - Release Date: 04/11/10 06:32:00
____________________________________________________________
Mortgage Rates Hit 2.99%
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Gov't Refi Programs
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Re: Weighing reefers

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Hi Clark,

I don't know about meat reefers, but as I understand it produce loads used agreed-upon standard weights based on the number of boxes or sacks and the type of produce. So many hundred boxes of oranges were a standard weight, and so many 50-pound sacks of spuds - well, that's an easy one.

Merry Christmas,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@mrmag.com
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142

88801 - 88820 of 184171