Date   

Re: Freight Car Statistics

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor says:

Union Tank Car alone had 44,831 tank cars in 1953 ... these numbers probably
are similar for 1948...

I don't know about that Mike, tank car fleets began growing after WWII
and have grown ever since.
I quoted the 1953 Orer.

Mike Brock


Re: New GATC Tank Car from Sunshine at Timonium

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

So what's that mean for the future?

There are plenty of places to publish information; not so many that are willing to publish information and pay the author for it.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson

Lots of information exists, Tom, otherwise we wouldn't have the
models. But hardly any of it has been published. I scanned numerous
photos for Frank Hodina's use in developing the masters, and I'm sure
others on this list also contributed. I could write an article on
the subject, but with the loss of the "niche" magazines, there's now
no place to publish it.


Re: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins - Other Roads

Tim O'Connor
 

I have to agree with Ben... this subject is really complex. Just look
at the span of 25 years in your list -- I'm sure that besides length &
capacity there must have been other differences.

I'm starting to understand what vendors are up against -- there must
be 100 different design permutations for 2 bay offset hoppers!

Tim O'Connor

"Here is a list outside of Illinois Central that had the "short taper/chisel side" twin offsets

B&LE 50001-50750, 10 panel, blt 1949
CofG 21500-21699, 10 panel, blt 1949
C&IM 6000-6349, 8 panel, blt 1949
CCC&StL 74065-75478, 8 panel, blt 1926-27
CCC&StL 88000-88999, 8 panel, blt 1926-27
DL&W 83300-83799, 8 panel, blt 1934
DL&W 85000-85499, 8 panel, blt 1940
D&M 5000-5024, 8 panel, blt 1948
EJ&E 40000-41699, 12 panel, blt 1940
GN 73200-73699, 8 panel, blt 1931
KGBW 401-420, 8 panel, blt 1948
HCTX 9901-9960, 8 panel, blt 1937
L&M 1000-1299, 10 panel, blt 1949
MC 11700-11755, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 450000-450994, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 451000-454097, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 450010-450988, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 451084-454296, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
P&LE 3350-3399, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
There are too many more classes of NYC & P&LE cars to list here
P&E 2801-2950, 8 panel, blt 1949
SOO ?"

Not so fast, my friend. When discussing hoppers, do not go by appearance alone. You have to take dimensions into account, notably IL and height of top chord above rail as they contribute to the overall appearance of a cut of hoppers. For example, as David Thompson pointed out, the NYC System cars are dimensionally similar to the USRA twin, with IL of 30 ft 6 in/height of top chord above rail 10 ft 11 in (actually taller than the USRA twin), while the IC cars had an IL of 33 ft/height of top chord above rail 10 ft 8 in. To put the difference in length into context, put a Tichy or Accurail USRA twin hopper next to an Athearn twin hopper.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-479.jpg

If you drill down into the other cars, you'd find more differences; for example, the DL&W cars had an IL of 34 ft, and you mixed in 40 ft cars, which further muddies your analysis.

Ben Hom


Re: Freight Car Statistics

Tim O'Connor
 

By 1960, 3.9% of all railroad owned equipment was covered hoppers.
The percentage of covered hoppers in the privately owned fleet of
272,242 cars was undoubtedly higher so the ratio of tank cars to
covered hoppers by 1960 probably declined to about 3:1 and by 1967
was only about 2:1. (Only mentioned to illustrate the trend.)

On western railroads where open hoppers were far less numerous, I
expect the percentage of covered hoppers by 1960 may have been as
much as 5%-6% of all freight cars, though tank cars no doubt still
outnumbered them.

Tim O'Connor

I think that is a misconception based on a regional bias. I have compiled the data for 1953. While tank cars only compose 0.6% of the cars owned by railroads, they also compose 55.4% of the privately owned rail cars. Overall tank cars accounted for 7.4% of all rail cars in 1953. There were 5 times as many tank cars as covered hoppers; nearly twice as many tank cars as flat cars; more than 3 times as many tanks as stock cars; more than 20 times as many tank cars as ventilated reefers; and nearly 25% more tank cars than reefers.

Rich Orr


Re: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins - Other Roads

Benjamin Hom
 

Rich C wrote:
"Here is a list outside of Illinois Central that had the "short taper/chisel side" twin offsets

B&LE 50001-50750, 10 panel, blt 1949
CofG 21500-21699, 10 panel, blt 1949
C&IM 6000-6349, 8 panel, blt 1949
CCC&StL 74065-75478, 8 panel, blt 1926-27
CCC&StL 88000-88999, 8 panel, blt 1926-27
DL&W 83300-83799, 8 panel, blt 1934
DL&W 85000-85499, 8 panel, blt 1940
D&M 5000-5024, 8 panel, blt 1948
EJ&E 40000-41699, 12 panel, blt 1940
GN 73200-73699, 8 panel, blt 1931
KGBW 401-420, 8 panel, blt 1948
HCTX 9901-9960, 8 panel, blt 1937
L&M 1000-1299, 10 panel, blt 1949
MC 11700-11755, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 450000-450994, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 451000-454097, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 450010-450988, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 451084-454296, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
P&LE 3350-3399, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
There are too many more classes of NYC & P&LE cars to list here
P&E 2801-2950, 8 panel, blt 1949
SOO ?"

Not so fast, my friend. When discussing hoppers, do not go by appearance alone. You have to take dimensions into account, notably IL and height of top chord above rail as they contribute to the overall appearance of a cut of hoppers. For example, as David Thompson pointed out, the NYC System cars are dimensionally similar to the USRA twin, with IL of 30 ft 6 in/height of top chord above rail 10 ft 11 in (actually taller than the USRA twin), while the IC cars had an IL of 33 ft/height of top chord above rail 10 ft 8 in. To put the difference in length into context, put a Tichy or Accurail USRA twin hopper next to an Athearn twin hopper.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-479.jpg

If you drill down into the other cars, you'd find more differences; for example, the DL&W cars had an IL of 34 ft, and you mixed in 40 ft cars, which further muddies your analysis.


Ben Hom


Re: Red Ball B&O wagon top

Brian Ehni <behni@...>
 

http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/7050.html

Thanks!
--

Brian P. Ehni




From: Mark Morgan <bnonut@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:12:37 -0800 (PST)
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Red Ball B&O wagon top








Andy, F&C makes the wagon top B&O N43 covered hopper kit. Looks
great when finished.

Mark Morgan

--- On Wed, 1/26/11, Andy Harman <gsgondola@...
<mailto:gsgondola%40gp30.com>> wrote:

From: Andy Harman <gsgondola@... <mailto:gsgondola%40gp30.com>>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Red Ball B&O wagon top
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 6:08 PM



On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:39:36 -0000, EdwardM wrote

The rivets on those sides were gigantic - maybe 2 scale inches +.
I thought it was an interesting concept at the time, but we're talking
zinc alloy

castings you have to bend. Gently. In a smooth curve. All of them the
same. And you

only get one chance I would imagine they don't like to be bent back for a
second try.

Did F&C do the wagon top hopper in some form? I have always liked the car
- when I was

a kid I remember seeing them at the B&O / CG&E O scale layout at
Christmas. I actually

think having this display as an annual visit helped make me a prototype
modeler at a

young age. These cars were hand built in the late 1930s, when scale
modeling was in its

infancy, to a level of detail that commercial products didn't aspire to
for another 3

decades. I'd love to have the opportunity to just photograph all of the
rolling stock.

Andy


Re: Red Ball B&O wagon top

Mark
 

Andy, F&C makes the wagon top B&O  N43 covered hopper kit. Looks great when finished.

Mark Morgan

--- On Wed, 1/26/11, Andy Harman <gsgondola@...> wrote:

From: Andy Harman <gsgondola@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Red Ball B&O wagon top
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 6:08 PM







 









On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:39:36 -0000, EdwardM wrote

The rivets on those sides were gigantic - maybe 2 scale inches +.


I thought it was an interesting concept at the time, but we're talking zinc alloy

castings you have to bend. Gently. In a smooth curve. All of them the same. And you

only get one chance I would imagine they don't like to be bent back for a second try.



Did F&C do the wagon top hopper in some form? I have always liked the car - when I was

a kid I remember seeing them at the B&O / CG&E O scale layout at Christmas. I actually

think having this display as an annual visit helped make me a prototype modeler at a

young age. These cars were hand built in the late 1930s, when scale modeling was in its

infancy, to a level of detail that commercial products didn't aspire to for another 3

decades. I'd love to have the opportunity to just photograph all of the rolling stock.



Andy

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins - Other Roads

MDelvec952
 

Rich, many thanks for that list. There were more than I thought. ....Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Rich C <rhcdmc@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, Jan 26, 2011 5:57 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins - Other Roads




Here is a list outside of Illinois Central that had the "short taper/chisel side" twin offsets

B&LE 50001-50750, 10 panel, blt 1949
CofG 21500-21699, 10 panel, blt 1949
C&IM 6000-6349, 8 panel, blt 1949
CCC&StL 74065-75478, 8 panel, blt 1926-27
CCC&StL 88000-88999, 8 panel, blt 1926-27
DL&W 83300-83799, 8 panel, blt 1934
DL&W 85000-85499, 8 panel, blt 1940
D&M 5000-5024, 8 panel, blt 1948
EJ&E 40000-41699, 12 panel, blt 1940
GN 73200-73699, 8 panel, blt 1931
KGBW 401-420, 8 panel, blt 1948
HCTX 9901-9960, 8 panel, blt 1937
L&M 1000-1299, 10 panel, blt 1949
MC 11700-11755, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 450000-450994, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 451000-454097, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 450010-450988, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 451084-454296, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
P&LE 3350-3399, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
There are too many more classes of NYC & P&LE cars to list here
P&E 2801-2950, 8 panel, blt 1949
SOO ?

I had mentioned last year that there is a need for a model of this style.

Rich

--- On Wed, 1/26/11, Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

From: Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
Subject: [STMFC] IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 3:16 PM



Ben--

I cannot back up my assertion with info that I have in front of me. But perhaps those on this list modelling other roads can?

If the IC only moved coal to CN/GTW for loco use, there'd be no justification for the sizeable fleet of hoppers that the IC had. And no justification for an accurate model of them. With this premise, you'd be correct as to an accurate HO model having zero possbility of production with this alone in mind.

Other roads would have seen these cars as well--which is why I ask modellers of those roads to chime in. Seems to me that more roads than CN/GTW got loco coal from mines served by the IC. As for Alburg, VT, this location would have been a little far afield for IC hoppers to travel when loco coal was available from mines in the Appalachians.

And these IC's two- and three-bay hoppers were far more numerous than the GN's Canton-built hoppers.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Benjamin Hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas wrote:
"Though the Accurail models are very nicely done, I'm thinking more of an
accurate Illinois Central hopper car like the ones coloured in this photo--
http://media.photobucket.com/image/illinois%20central%20hopper%20car%20ghq/G
HQ_Micro_Armour/ZM1%20O-4/ZM2%20Illinois%20Central%20Decals/05-IC-hopper-det
ailspadina.jpg

If the link doesn't work, here's the article containing the photo, and
another of these cars, plus an IC folio drawing of the car-
http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3290

You mean the cars modeled in HO by these 75-series Sunshine kits:
http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun75.pdf


"That flat area behind the ladder and at the other end of the car near the
bulb angle is very distinctive. So far one is faced with bashing and/or
resin kits to get these cars."

Back in the 1980s, Dick Hosmer kitbashed one of these cars for the NEB&W by
cutting down an Athearn quad. This will give you the desired "chiseled"
offset profile, though the length might end up being a bit short.


"And I personally can use a few of these, as can many steam-era modellers.
They were found at many loco terminals loaded with loco coal. Those
modelling
other roads than CN can chime in with their road's use of these
cars. I seem to recall that the NYC used loco coal shipped in IC hoppers?"

I hold zero IC hoppers in the Alburg data pulled from records in Armand
Premo's collection, though I haven't reviewed everything he has. Let me get
this straight - you're asking a manufacturer to invest in a hopper model
owned only by IC, KGB&W, and E&LS. Can you back up your assertions that
they were found at many locomotive terminals? It's certainly a signature
car of the IC, but unless you can prove there's going to be enough sales out
there, this suggestion is DOA.


Ben Hom


Re: Red Ball B&O wagon top

Andy Harman
 

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:39:36 -0000, EdwardM wrote

The rivets on those sides were gigantic - maybe 2 scale inches +.
I thought it was an interesting concept at the time, but we're talking zinc alloy
castings you have to bend. Gently. In a smooth curve. All of them the same. And you
only get one chance I would imagine they don't like to be bent back for a second try.

Did F&C do the wagon top hopper in some form? I have always liked the car - when I was
a kid I remember seeing them at the B&O / CG&E O scale layout at Christmas. I actually
think having this display as an annual visit helped make me a prototype modeler at a
young age. These cars were hand built in the late 1930s, when scale modeling was in its
infancy, to a level of detail that commercial products didn't aspire to for another 3
decades. I'd love to have the opportunity to just photograph all of the rolling stock.

Andy


Re: Forgotten Accurail Great Northern 2 Bay Canton Hopper

David
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Though the Accurail models are very nicely done, I'm thinking more of an accurate Illinios Central hopper car like the ones coloured in this photo--
http://media.photobucket.com/image/illinois%20central%20hopper%20car%20ghq/GHQ_Micro_Armour/ZM1%20O-4/ZM2%20Illinois%20Central%20Decals/05-IC-hopper-detailspadina.jpg
This design started out as the Enterprise offset-side twin hopper shown in various CBCs in the mid-late 1920s. The original design was 34'9" inside length and had stamped corner sills, but the design was modified to conform to the standard AAR dimensions in the 1930s. It is a signature IC car, but there were no other volume buyers.

David Thompson


Re: Freight Car Statistics (UNCLASSIFIED)

SUVCWORR@...
 

Armand,

Seems you have a wrong number somewhere. In 1953 the total number of tanks cars was 172301. Hard to believe that 164,000 tank cars were built in 6 years.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Premo <armprem2@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, Jan 26, 2011 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics (UNCLASSIFIED)


Elden,I am using the car totals as presented for 1947.If I have correctly read

the information the national tank car total, as given ,was only some 8531 cars

with which I am having some difficulty accepting.Please correct me if I am

misreading those figures.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----

From: Gatwood, Elden SAW

To: STMFC@...

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:59 AM

Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics (UNCLASSIFIED)







Classification: UNCLASSIFIED

Caveats: NONE



And there were boatloads of tank cars around the major chemical producers and

petro-chemical user areas, such as portions of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Louisiana,

and such, and which also then differed from the more "common" oil-producer

fleets. With all the small gasoline distributors, and later LPG wheelers in

the mid-west and west, it would be hard to imagine a layout on which tank

cars were not in evidence.



Elden Gatwood



-----Original Message-----

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of

Richard Hendrickson

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:50 AM

To: STMFC@...

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics



On Jan 26, 2011, at 8:09 AM, A. Premo wrote:



> David,Going even further using this data one can come up with the % of

> each car type in relation to the total car fleet of a given period

> (year).After perusing the information tank cars represent a minuscule

> percentage of the total car fleet.Armand Premo



Yes but, once again, Armand, one has to think in terms of the region being

modeled. Tank cars were all over the place in the oil- producing and oil

consuming regions of the southwest and far west, much less so where coal was

the major industrial and heating fuel.

In addition, western railroads like the SP and Santa Fe had substantial

fleets of tank cars in mostly captive service hauling locomotive fuel.



Richard Hendrickson







Classification: UNCLASSIFIED

Caveats: NONE













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Re: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins - Other Roads

 

Here is a list outside of Illinois Central that had the "short taper/chisel side" twin offsets

B&LE    50001-50750, 10 panel, blt 1949
CofG    21500-21699, 10 panel, blt 1949
C&IM      6000-6349,  8 panel, blt 1949
CCC&StL 74065-75478,  8 panel, blt 1926-27
CCC&StL 88000-88999,  8 panel, blt 1926-27
DL&W    83300-83799,  8 panel, blt 1934
DL&W    85000-85499,  8 panel, blt 1940
D&M       5000-5024,  8 panel, blt 1948
EJ&E    40000-41699, 12 panel, blt 1940
GN      73200-73699,  8 panel, blt 1931
KGBW        401-420,  8 panel, blt 1948
HCTX      9901-9960,  8 panel, blt 1937
L&M 1000-1299, 10 panel, blt 1949
MC 11700-11755, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 450000-450994, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 451000-454097, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 450010-450988, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
NYC 451084-454296, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
P&LE 3350-3399, 8 panel, blt 1924-27
There are too many more classes of NYC & P&LE cars to list here
P&E 2801-2950, 8 panel, blt 1949
SOO ?

I had mentioned last year that there is a need for a model of this style.


Rich

--- On Wed, 1/26/11, Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...> wrote:


From: Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
Subject: [STMFC] IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 3:16 PM


 



Ben--

I cannot back up my assertion with info that I have in front of me. But perhaps those on this list modelling other roads can?

If the IC only moved coal to CN/GTW for loco use, there'd be no justification for the sizeable fleet of hoppers that the IC had. And no justification for an accurate model of them. With this premise, you'd be correct as to an accurate HO model having zero possbility of production with this alone in mind.

Other roads would have seen these cars as well--which is why I ask modellers of those roads to chime in. Seems to me that more roads than CN/GTW got loco coal from mines served by the IC. As for Alburg, VT, this location would have been a little far afield for IC hoppers to travel when loco coal was available from mines in the Appalachians.

And these IC's two- and three-bay hoppers were far more numerous than the GN's Canton-built hoppers.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Benjamin Hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas wrote:
"Though the Accurail models are very nicely done, I'm thinking more of an
accurate Illinois Central hopper car like the ones coloured in this photo--
http://media.photobucket.com/image/illinois%20central%20hopper%20car%20ghq/G
HQ_Micro_Armour/ZM1%20O-4/ZM2%20Illinois%20Central%20Decals/05-IC-hopper-det
ailspadina.jpg

If the link doesn't work, here's the article containing the photo, and
another of these cars, plus an IC folio drawing of the car-
http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3290

You mean the cars modeled in HO by these 75-series Sunshine kits:
http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun75.pdf


"That flat area behind the ladder and at the other end of the car near the
bulb angle is very distinctive. So far one is faced with bashing and/or
resin kits to get these cars."

Back in the 1980s, Dick Hosmer kitbashed one of these cars for the NEB&W by
cutting down an Athearn quad. This will give you the desired "chiseled"
offset profile, though the length might end up being a bit short.


"And I personally can use a few of these, as can many steam-era modellers.
They were found at many loco terminals loaded with loco coal. Those
modelling
other roads than CN can chime in with their road's use of these
cars. I seem to recall that the NYC used loco coal shipped in IC hoppers?"

I hold zero IC hoppers in the Alburg data pulled from records in Armand
Premo's collection, though I haven't reviewed everything he has. Let me get
this straight - you're asking a manufacturer to invest in a hopper model
owned only by IC, KGB&W, and E&LS. Can you back up your assertions that
they were found at many locomotive terminals? It's certainly a signature
car of the IC, but unless you can prove there's going to be enough sales out
there, this suggestion is DOA.


Ben Hom


IC "Chiseled Side" Offset Twins (was Re: Forgotten Accurail Great Northern 2 Bay

David
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Eric" <eric@...> wrote:

The New York Central rostered fifty-ton offset twins in the mid-1920s that may have similarities to the IC hoppers in the color image Steve sent along. When were the IC cars built?
The NYC system cars were basically the standard USRA twin hopper with offset sides (there were also some 70-ton versions)- not the same as the IC car. SHS has a nice rendition in S.

David Thompson


Re: Freight Car Statistics

SUVCWORR@...
 

Armand,

I think that is a misconception based on a regional bias. I have compiled the data for 1953. While tank cars only compose 0.6% of the cars owned by railroads, they also compose 55.4% of the privately owned rail cars. Overall tank cars accounted for 7.4% of all rail cars in 1953. There were 5 times as many tank cars as covered hoppers; nearly twice as many tank cars as flat cars; more than 3 times as many tanks as stock cars; more than 20 times as many tank cars as ventilated reefers; and nearly 25% more tank cars than reefers.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Premo <armprem2@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, Jan 26, 2011 11:09 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics


David,Going even further using this data one can come up with the % of each car

type in relation to the total car fleet of a given period (year).After perusing

the information tank cars represent a minuscule percentage of the total car

fleet.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----

From: Dave Evans

To: STMFC@...

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 10:45 AM

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics







--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

>

> Very interesting! Does anybody have easy access to the same data (in Railway

Age) for, say '52 or '53? The '47 data is a bit too close to The War for my use.

If someone can send me a scan, I'll be happy to do the typing.

>

> It is interesting to note that, for the '47 data, 59% of the box cars were

built between 1917 and 1931. To me, that implies that most of that 59% are

wood-sheathed.

>

> Regards,

>

> -Jeff

>

Jeff,



Several years ago I did an analysis of the '43 ORER (granted a little early

for your use) for all X cars (I combined XM, XA, and others - newbie mistake).

In '43 the ORER indicated wood or steal sheathed for nearly all roads. I came up

with 56% wood sheathed, 44% steel for the North American fleet. Note that CP and

CN were nearly 12% of that fleet, and they were a little over 90% wood sheathed.

If you remove PRR, NYC, and B&O from the NA count (the three biggest eastern

roads, which had transitioned heavily to steel sheathed cars) and CP and CN

(because people believe those cars did not wonder south that often), the

remaining roads were 63% wood sheathed and 37% steel - almost 2:1 wood sheathed.



Of the top 20 X car fleets in NA, only PRR, NYC, and B&O show a majority steel

sheathed fleet (and each by a large margin - combined the three roads were over

85% steel sheathed). SP and IC were about a 50-50 split. Most of the other top

20 road's wood cars outnumbered their steel cars by 2 to 1, so it wasn't just

the smaller, perhaps more resource constrained roads that lacked steel X cars.



It is also important to note that North American sub-40' cars (mostly 36'

cars) outnumbered 50 footers by over 2:1, and taking even CP and CN out of the

mix, US 36' cars still outnumbered 50' cars (70k vs. 45k). Southern had more 36'

cars (~13,650) than all but the largest 21 railroad's X-car fleets (C&O was

number 22, with ~12,700 X cars of all lengths and types). You can never have

enough Southern 36' XM cars if you model through WWII. For reasons that escape

me, that remains a resin only option.



Dave Evans













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Oh Boy

A. Premo <armprem2@...>
 

Gentlemen all,I did_ask for corrections in my original post and this
august group responded...soundly Sending the post resulted in an avalanche
of help.I have my !949 ORER and was fully aware of the car numbers.I had
been checking meat reefers.By not making myself clear I erred.Making an
incorrect assumption surely gets results.Thanks to all who responded.Armand
Premo

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IC "Chiseled Side" Offset Twins (was Re: Forgotten Accurail Great Northern 2 Bay Canton Hopper)

Eric Hansmann
 

The New York Central rostered fifty-ton offset twins in the mid-1920s that may have similarities to the IC hoppers in the color image Steve sent along. When were the IC cars built?

Here's some detail on NYC cars from Terry Link's site.

A drawing of a lot 479-H car from 1924.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-479.jpg

An image of a similar Big Four car from lot 533-H, built in 1926.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/ccc&stl-88010.jpg

Cars with similar specs are noted in lot 534-H and 535-H, also in 1926.

Another image of a car from lot 539-H, also built in 1926.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-454093.jpg

Possibly these can be bashed from an Athearn quad by cutting out a chunk of the center to make a twin then cleaning up the ends for finer detail. Just an off-the-cuff suggestion as I have not fully examined an Athearn quad in years.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
Chagrin Falls, Ohio
Plan now to attend RPM-East!
http://www.hansmanns.org/rpm_east/2011.htm

--- In STMFC@..., "Benjamin Hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas wrote:
"Though the Accurail models are very nicely done, I'm thinking more of an
accurate Illinois Central hopper car like the ones coloured in this photo--
http://media.photobucket.com/image/illinois%20central%20hopper%20car%20ghq/G
HQ_Micro_Armour/ZM1%20O-4/ZM2%20Illinois%20Central%20Decals/05-IC-hopper-det
ailspadina.jpg

If the link doesn't work, here's the article containing the photo, and
another of these cars, plus an IC folio drawing of the car-
http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3290

You mean the cars modeled in HO by these 75-series Sunshine kits:
http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun75.pdf


"That flat area behind the ladder and at the other end of the car near the
bulb angle is very distinctive. So far one is faced with bashing and/or
resin kits to get these cars."

Back in the 1980s, Dick Hosmer kitbashed one of these cars for the NEB&W by
cutting down an Athearn quad. This will give you the desired "chiseled"
offset profile, though the length might end up being a bit short.


"And I personally can use a few of these, as can many steam-era modellers.
They were found at many loco terminals loaded with loco coal. Those
modelling other roads than CN can chime in with their road's use of these
cars. I seem to recall that the NYC used loco coal shipped in IC hoppers?"

I hold zero IC hoppers in the Alburg data pulled from records in Armand
Premo's collection, though I haven't reviewed everything he has. Let me get
this straight - you're asking a manufacturer to invest in a hopper model
owned only by IC, KGB&W, and E&LS. Can you back up your assertions that
they were found at many locomotive terminals? It's certainly a signature
car of the IC, but unless you can prove there's going to be enough sales out
there, this suggestion is DOA.


Ben Hom


Red Ball B&O wagon top

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., Jedalberg@... wrote:
I built one of those, in about that time frame, or maybe a few years
earlier. Worst part was bending all of those lead side/roof sections around a
pencil. as I recall; and then, getting them all together--even. The Sunshine
B&O round roof boxcars were a snap after that---

I made a jig to bend the soft metal sections. Using the end as a template I pencil marked the curve on a scrap piece of lumber. Got one of the mechanics in the factory where I worked it on a do all saw (I wasn't allowed to use the saw).

The rivets on those sides were gigantic - maybe 2 scale inches +.

Ed Mines


Re: Freight Car Statistics

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike Brock wrote

Union Tank Car alone had 44,831 tank cars in 1953 ... these numbers probably
are similar for 1948...

I don't know about that Mike, tank car fleets began growing after WWII
and have grown ever since.

UTLX in 1955 -- 48,526
UTLX in 1959 -- 56,106

Some folks think we lack for 1920's and 1930's tank cars, but ask yourself
how many good models do we have to represent cars built 1950-1960? ZERO in
plastic or resin. A couple in brass.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Freight Car Statistics

A. Premo <armprem2@...>
 

You are absolutely correct Mike and I am aware that private companies owned the vast majority of tank cars.My remarks should be construed as to only RR owned tank cars in terms of the % of the national freight car fleet.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: mike brock
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics



Armand Premo writes:

> Elden,I am using the car totals as presented for 1947.If I have correctly
> read the information the national tank car total, as given ,was only some
> 8531 cars with which I am having some difficulty accepting.Please correct
> me if I am misreading those figures.

I'm a bit late into this thread and I may be missing something but, if I'm
reading it right, Armand's problem is that the 8531 total is for RR owned
tank cars. Union Tank Car alone had 44,831 tank cars in 1953. Shippers Car
Line had 11182 and Sinclair owned 4976. These numbers probably are similar
for 1948...

It should be noted that during WW2 solid trains of tank cars moved from the
southwest through Appalachia, rolling over billions of tons of coal which
was not very useful in oil derivative fuels used in tanks, ships and
aircraft.

Mike Brock






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Re: Freight Car Statistics (UNCLASSIFIED)

A. Premo <armprem2@...>
 

That is absolutely correct.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Smith
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics (UNCLASSIFIED)



Armand,

I suspect that you are only seeing the railroad owned cars, not the
huge fleets owned by private owners such as the leasing companies.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Jan 26, 2011, at 11:30 AM, A. Premo wrote:

> Elden,I am using the car totals as presented for 1947.If I have
> correctly read the information the national tank car total, as
> given ,was only some 8531 cars with which I am having some
> difficulty accepting.Please correct me if I am misreading those
> figures.Armand Premo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gatwood, Elden SAW
> To: STMFC@...
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:59 AM
> Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics (UNCLASSIFIED)
>
>
>
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>
> And there were boatloads of tank cars around the major chemical
> producers and
> petro-chemical user areas, such as portions of Ohio,
> Pennsylvania, Louisiana,
> and such, and which also then differed from the more "common" oil-
> producer
> fleets. With all the small gasoline distributors, and later LPG
> wheelers in
> the mid-west and west, it would be hard to imagine a layout on
> which tank
> cars were not in evidence.
>
> Elden Gatwood
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
> Behalf Of
> Richard Hendrickson
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:50 AM
> To: STMFC@...
> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics
>
> On Jan 26, 2011, at 8:09 AM, A. Premo wrote:
>
>> David,Going even further using this data one can come up with the
>> % of
>> each car type in relation to the total car fleet of a given period
>> (year).After perusing the information tank cars represent a minuscule
>> percentage of the total car fleet.Armand Premo
>
> Yes but, once again, Armand, one has to think in terms of the
> region being
> modeled. Tank cars were all over the place in the oil- producing
> and oil
> consuming regions of the southwest and far west, much less so
> where coal was
> the major industrial and heating fuel.
> In addition, western railroads like the SP and Santa Fe had
> substantial
> fleets of tank cars in mostly captive service hauling locomotive
> fuel.
>
> Richard Hendrickson
>
>
>
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>
>
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2804 - Release Date:
> 04/11/10 06:32:00
> __________________________________________________________
> Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance
> If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program
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>
>
>
>
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>
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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